Chatlog 2012-07-19

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15:03:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
15:03:05 <RRSAgent> logging to
15:03:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:03:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
15:03:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:03:10 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:03:11 <trackbot> Date: 19 July 2012
15:03:13 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV
15:03:13 <Zakim> ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started
15:03:28 <pgroth> Agenda:
15:03:36 <Zakim> +??P30
15:03:41 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
15:03:42 <TomDN> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see TomDN, ??P2, Luc, ??P11, stain, ??P25, ??P27, ??P30
15:03:46 <christine> christine has joined #prov
15:03:47 <pgroth> Scribe: TomDN
15:03:49 <Zakim> -??P25
15:03:57 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P25 is me
15:03:57 <Zakim> I already had ??P25 as ??P25, pgroth
15:04:11 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public
15:04:28 <Zakim> +??P25
15:04:32 <stain> I'm amazed - Zakim recognized me today..
15:04:37 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P25 is me
15:04:37 <Zakim> + +44.131.467.aaaa - is perhaps jcheney?
15:04:37 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
15:04:52 <TomDN> zakim, mute me
15:04:52 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted
15:04:59 <pgroth> Regrets: Curt Tilmes, Hook Hua, Stephan Zednik, Graham Klyne, Sandro Hawke
15:05:06 <jcheney> zakim, aaaa is me
15:05:07 <pgroth> Topic: Admin 
<pgroth> Summary: Minutes of last two weeks of meetings approved. 
15:05:11 <Zakim> sorry, jcheney, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:05:18 <pgroth>
15:05:21 <jcheney> zakim, +44.131.467.aaaa is me
15:05:23 <pgroth> Minutes of the July 05, 2012 Telecon
15:05:24 <Zakim> sorry, jcheney, I do not recognize a party named '+44.131.467.aaaa'
15:05:27 <Luc> zakim, who is here?
15:05:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see TomDN (muted), ??P2, Luc, ??P11, stain, ??P27, ??P30, dgarijo, jcheney?
15:05:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see christine, RRSAgent, dgarijo, jcheney, Zakim, Paolo, smiles, Luc, Dong, pgroth, TomDN, MacTed, trackbot, stain, sandro
15:05:36 <TomDN> +0 (did not attend)
15:05:41 <smiles> 0
15:05:42 <dgarijo> +0 
15:05:49 <Paolo> +1
15:05:51 <jcheney> +1
15:05:59 <stain> +1
15:06:19 <pgroth> accepted: Minutes of the July 05, 2012 Telecon
15:06:26 <pgroth>
15:06:39 <pgroth> Minutes of the July 12, 2012 Telecon
15:06:51 <smiles> 0
15:06:53 <Paolo> +1
15:06:59 <dgarijo> 0
15:07:00 <jcheney> +1
15:07:06 <stain> +1
15:07:31 <Zakim> +??P38
15:07:50 <pgroth> accepted: Minutes of the July 12, 2012 Telecon
15:07:52 <pgroth> q?
15:08:21 <TomDN> pgroth: Paolo and Paul still have an action
15:08:34 <pgroth> s/Paolo/Paulo/
15:08:41 <Zakim> + +238055aabb
15:08:48 <pgroth> Topic: Prov-Constraints
<pgroth> Summary: Prov-constraints document to be available Friday, July 20th for review by the group for release as last call. Simon, Stian, Tim, and Paul agreed to review. One week was given for the review period. August 2nd would be the vote on releasing as last call.
15:08:49 <stephenc> stephenc has joined #prov
15:09:11 <TomDN> pgroth: There has been a lot of email traffic on the constraints, and we're trying to get something out for review
15:09:39 <TomDN> jcheney: There's a clear plan to release something for review in the next day or two
15:09:49 <jcheney>
15:09:55 <TomDN> luc: aim for release for internal review is tomorrow
15:10:48 <TomDN> jcheney: There's been some discussion on the mailing list and some off-line discussion, but most results will be incorporated in the document for review
15:11:09 <TomDN> pgroth: By when would this be reviewed?
15:11:37 <TomDN> jcheney: goal is to get release LC on august 2nd
15:11:48 <TomDN> s/get/vote on
15:12:10 <TomDN> luc: reviews would be due by next Friday (July 27th)
15:12:42 <TomDN> jcheney: hopefully minor things after review can be fixed by august 2nd
15:13:07 <TomDN> ... Hopefully no problems that are too big arise
15:13:10 <Luc> could we ask GK to do it?
15:13:14 <smiles> I will
15:13:16 <stain> I will
15:13:37 <christine> Not sure I am suitably technically qualified to do a review.
15:13:55 <Dong> Dong has joined #prov
15:14:00 <Luc> q+
15:14:06 <stain> @christine - why not give it a go - that might be a good position to review from as well?
15:14:57 <pgroth> ack Luc
15:15:00 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
15:15:13 <TomDN> luc: I'm a bit concerned about the timetable. We will have to discuss off-line that it's possible.
15:15:19 <pgroth> reviewers - simon, stain, paul for prov-constraints
15:15:27 <Dong> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:15:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see TomDN (muted), ??P2, Luc, ??P11, stain, ??P27, ??P30, dgarijo, jcheney?, ??P38, +238055aabb
15:15:28 <pgroth> q?
15:15:32 <Zakim> +tlebo
15:15:45 <TomDN> pgroth: thanks to all who are working on it
15:15:45 <pgroth> Topic: Draft of Dublin Core Mappings
<pgroth> Summary: Daniel is working on putting the mappings in W3C Note style is hopeful to have this done by next week. Daniel will make this available as an Editor's draft. A more formal review of the document for release as a working draft will be done in September.
15:16:24 <TomDN> dgarijo: I'm working on it, will deliver it in the next days
15:17:02 <TomDN> ... By beginning of next week. I'd like some people to review it then
15:17:56 <TomDN> pgroth: It would be nice to have it as a working draft (note) before august, but might not be possible
15:18:16 <TomDN> dgarijo: Should be no problem, since I am working on it alone
15:18:42 <pgroth> q?
15:18:59 <Luc> q+
15:19:00 <TomDN> pgroth: We need to get it into W3C format, include a link in the working draft list, and then get people's reviews/comments on it
15:19:09 <TomDN> ... Comments on this?
15:19:11 <pgroth> ack Luc
15:19:56 <pgroth> plan is to have an editor's draft early next week
15:20:00 <TomDN> Luc: Sounds good. If we get a document ready for internal release by early September, that's good.
15:20:12 <pgroth> a formal review process in sept
15:20:45 <TomDN> pgroth: We have a number of other working drafts
15:21:22 <stain> I would want to talk about Dictionary draft afterwards to figure out the who/when bit
15:21:24 <TomDN> ... First: Working draft XML
15:21:34 <TomDN> ... Has this team been in contact with Luc?
15:21:46 <pgroth> Topic: XML Schema
<pgroth> Summary: From a note in the agenda, Hook, Stephan and Curt will be reviewing the current version of the xml schema July 20. Luc will get in touch with them to see what they aim to do. He will also make the xml schema available and request comments.
15:21:58 <TomDN> Luc: Stephan has been in touch to ask for draft XML schema. I don't know what the next step is.
15:22:27 <TomDN> pgroth: Let's talk about this next week, hopefully they will be on the call then.
15:22:28 <stain> feedback on what.. where is it?
15:22:56 <TomDN> Luc: Maybe also ask for feedback on the draft XML schema by then as well
15:23:09 <TomDN> ... We will put it on the wiki
15:23:09 <pgroth> q?
15:23:24 <pgroth> Topic: Dictionary
<pgroth> Summary: A rough editor's draft of the Dictionary Note has been made. Stian will be editing the Note and working on it at the end of August/beginning of September. Paolo, Tim agreed to help.  
15:23:55 <stain> zakim, who is noisy?
15:24:01 <TomDN> pgroth: We agreed to put dictionaries into a separate note
15:24:03 <stain> 
15:24:08 <Zakim> stain, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P27 (83%)
15:24:15 <TomDN> ... Who's working on it, and what's the timeline?
15:24:51 <TomDN> (sorry, who is speaking?)
15:25:01 <TomDN> thanks
15:25:14 <tlebo> Stian is speaking
15:25:25 <tlebo> stain ?
15:25:42 <TomDN> stain: I volunteered to be editor on this, but nothing has really lifted off yet
15:25:56 <TomDN> ... I would have time in august, and could use some people to help on this.
15:26:10 <pgroth> q?
15:26:22 <TomDN> pgroth: Sounds good. Having something in mid September would be ideal.
15:26:23 <tlebo> sounds good
15:26:23 <stain> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:26:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see TomDN (muted), ??P2, Luc, ??P11, stain, ??P27, ??P30, dgarijo, jcheney?, ??P38, +238055aabb, tlebo
15:26:36 <Paolo> I would like to help
15:26:37 <stain> Right - I wondered who could volunteer.. 
15:26:50 <Luc> happy to review
15:26:54 <tlebo> I'm on it :-/
15:26:59 <TomDN> pgroth: any volunteers to help?
15:27:08 <stain> sounds good
15:27:11 <TomDN> ... thanks Paolo, Luc, Tim
15:27:31 <pgroth> Topic: Timetable
<pgroth> Summary: For the month of August volunteers were signed up for handling incoming public comments on the last call releases. 
15:27:43 <pgroth>
15:28:07 <TomDN> pgroth: We need someone coordinating incoming public comments
15:28:19 <TomDN> ... Please sign up through this link
15:28:51 <smiles> Yes
15:28:53 <stain> yes
15:28:56 <dgarijo> Me too
15:29:00 <smiles> OK
15:29:02 <TomDN> ... It's 1 week/person. Just keeping track of emails and providing replies
15:29:41 <smiles> If needs be, I can do that too
15:29:51 <TomDN> I can do 6-12
15:29:57 <TomDN> (needed to check agenda)
15:29:58 <dgarijo> I'm all august available
15:30:05 <dgarijo> ok
15:30:16 <tlebo> (I already took Aug 20 - Aug 26)
15:30:32 <Luc> have got to go, bye bye
15:30:33 <stain> I can do 26th-
15:30:39 <Zakim> -Luc
15:31:00 <TomDN> pgroth: good, that covers most of august for public comments, thanks.
15:31:26 <pgroth> Topic: Prov Namespace
<pgroth> Summary: The group adopted a resolution on an approach for handling what owl gets returned on dereferencing the provenance namespace.
15:32:00 <TomDN> pgroth: What do we do with dereferencability, especially if you have multiple nodes
15:32:15 <pgroth>
15:32:27 <TomDN> pgroth: This documents the various approaches
15:32:35 <TomDN> ... We need to settle on one.
15:33:20 <TomDN> pgroth: Solution 1: Merge all owl files into one namespace owl
15:33:34 <TomDN> ... Here the idea is that each note would maintain a separate owl file. 
15:33:45 <TomDN> ... Solution 2.1 Use owl:import, but return only PROV-O 
15:33:58 <TomDN> ... This hybrid solution is a single OWL file with the content of ProvenanceOntology.owl (PROV-O) - but with the additional owl:imports for the modules. It will include provenance to the OWL of the official REC that it is derived from. 
15:34:24 <TomDN> ... There were some modifications to this, which lead to Solution 2.2 Use owl:import and return full merge of PROV-O and all Notes 
15:34:52 <TomDN> ... and lastly: Solution 3 Define all terms in a single OWL file 
15:35:17 <TomDN> ... Terms that are not formally part of PROV-O would be described using just annotation properties (rdfs:label, rdfs:comment), so they don't show up in Ontology processing tools, but are still present for documentary purposes when the namespace is dereferenced. 
15:35:20 <pgroth> q?
15:35:30 <TomDN> pgroth: So which do you guys think is best?
15:35:44 <tlebo> +1 to the one I suggested :-)
15:36:01 <stain> In preference: 2.2, 2.1, 2, 3, 1
15:36:35 <TomDN> pgroth: I would be inclined to do 2.2 as well, which is basically the concatenation of everything
15:36:41 <dgarijo> I like 2.1 better, in case you don't want to handle everything at once.
15:36:47 <TomDN> ... Are there any objections to this?
15:36:50 <stain> you are just restating what is true - if you saved that file again from protege the merged things should disappear as they are implied by the import
15:37:06 <pgroth> q?
15:37:08 <tlebo> @dgarijo but what makes provo so special?
15:37:43 <stain> @dgarijo, if you don't want to, then import the version IRI of PROV-O (or whatever) instead
15:37:48 <Dong> I prefer to see all the terms defined by the WG
15:37:59 <dgarijo> @stian, tim:I see.
15:38:16 <pgroth> for the owl file that comes back from the prov namespace - (solution 2.2. ) Use owl:import and return full merge of PROV-O and all Notes
15:38:28 <pgroth> proposed: for the owl file that comes back from the prov namespace - (solution 2.2. ) Use owl:import and return full merge of PROV-O and all Notes
15:38:34 <smiles> +0.5 (fine as far as I understand, but not my expertise)
15:38:35 <tlebo> @stain right to @dgarijo , just grab the owl:imports and take those that you want (ignore everything else that comes back).
15:38:42 <stain> +1
15:38:43 <TomDN> +1
15:38:45 <dgarijo> +1
15:38:50 <Dong> +1
15:38:54 <tlebo> +1
15:39:04 <stain> if it does not actually work we can change it, right? This is not part of a REC
15:39:20 <TomDN> pgroth: Indeed
15:39:27 <pgroth> accepted: for the owl file that comes back from the prov namespace - (solution 2.2. ) Use owl:import and return full merge of PROV-O and all Notes
15:39:42 <stain> I'm sure Tim has some tricks up his sleeve for that
15:39:54 <TomDN> pgroth: Tim, do you have anything laying around to do this?
15:40:20 <TomDN> tlebo: I'll look in my box of owl-magic tricks
15:40:42 <TomDN> ... (yes, I will look into it)
15:40:48 <stain> here's one implementation:  - it would not cover a big % as of today
<pgroth> Topic: Etc
<pgroth> Summary: A discussion on exit criteria was delayed to next week. The group was asked to think about their implementations. In addition, Tim asked about the process of editing after Last Call. Paul agreed to check on the process. 
15:41:01 <pgroth>
15:41:15 <TomDN> pgroth: If you are thinking about implementations of PROV, this is a good time to start talking about them
15:41:17 <tlebo> @stain add it to
15:41:17 <Dong> @pgroth, do we have a timetable for the implementation todos?
15:41:45 <TomDN> ... Please take a look at the exit criteria, and see if you can implement (some of) them
15:42:02 <TomDN> ... Implementation period will be 4-6 weeks
15:42:23 <pgroth> q?
15:42:30 <TomDN> ... But we'd like to start way before that, and definitely think about the report as well
15:42:47 <tlebo> q+
15:43:12 <jcheney> q+
15:43:24 <TomDN> tlebo: Now that stuff is released for LC, how do we deal with change management?
15:43:37 <TomDN> pgroth: Same as always, just create a new editor's draft
15:44:15 <TomDN> ... but do be careful about technical changes (since this is LC), but we can still make editorial changes.
15:44:26 <tlebo> e.g. ?
15:44:56 <stain> @dgarijo would the PROV mapping for roevo and wfprov in wf4ever count for application page? Will we formalize those into the OWLs?
15:45:00 <TomDN> tlebo: I have a request to change the domain. Is this too much change, or not?
15:45:18 <TomDN> pgroth: I'll email sandro to make sure we don't make mistakes
15:45:32 <pgroth> ack tlebo 
15:45:59 <TomDN> jcheney: Will Tim review the constraints as well?
15:46:05 <TomDN> tlebo: Absolutely
15:46:36 <pgroth> q?
15:46:39 <pgroth> ack jcheney 
15:46:48 <tlebo> bye bye
15:46:51 <Zakim> -dgarijo
15:46:52 <Zakim> -tlebo
15:46:53 <Zakim> -??P11
15:46:53 <Zakim> -??P30
15:46:55 <TomDN> bye
15:47:01 <Zakim> -??P2
15:47:01 <Zakim> -??P27
15:47:03 <TomDN> zakim, unmute me
15:47:03 <Zakim> TomDN should no longer be muted
15:47:05 <Zakim> -??P38
15:47:10 <stain> bye
15:47:13 <Zakim> -TomDN
15:47:14 <Zakim> -stain
15:47:25 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public
15:47:30 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:47:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate pgroth
15:47:36 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon
15:47:36 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:47:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TomDN, Luc, stain, +44.131.467.aaaa, dgarijo, +238055aabb, tlebo
15:47:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:47:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate trackbot
15:47:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:47:45 <RRSAgent> I see no action items