Chatlog 2012-06-14

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14:48:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:48:06 <RRSAgent> logging to
14:48:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:48:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
14:48:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
14:48:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:48:11 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:48:11 <trackbot> Date: 14 June 2012
14:48:24 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public
14:48:38 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV
<luc>Regrets: Sandro, Graham, James Cheney
14:48:38 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
14:48:51 <pgroth> @Luc that should do it
14:50:37 <Luc> thanks
14:50:46 <Luc> did you receive my email to the mailing list, with copy of agenda
14:51:22 <TomDN> TomDN has joined #prov
14:51:29 <pgroth> yes just got it
14:51:36 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
14:51:44 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:51:52 <Zakim> + +329331aaaa
14:52:04 <TomDN> Zakim, +329 is me
14:52:04 <Zakim> +TomDN; got it
14:52:19 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me
14:52:19 <Zakim> sorry, TomDN, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
14:52:44 <Zakim> +??P3
14:52:52 <Zakim> +??P2
14:52:55 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P3 is me
14:52:56 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
14:54:08 <Luc> chair: luc moreau
14:54:13 <Luc> scribe: paolo missier
14:54:18 <Luc> topic: admin
<Luc>Summary: Next week teleconference is cancelled since the face to face meeting will be on Friday and Saturday. Minutes of last week's teleconference were approved.
14:54:56 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov
14:55:15 <MacTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:55:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate MacTed
14:55:18 <MacTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:55:21 <Zakim> + +1.661.382.aabb
14:55:38 <MacTed> (nothing's made public, if the draft isn't produced first)
14:55:42 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
14:56:35 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aacc
14:56:42 <tlebo> zakim, I am aacc
14:56:42 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it
14:57:15 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aadd
14:57:42 <CraigTrim> CraigTrim has joined #prov
14:57:43 <Luc> zakim, aadd is me
14:57:43 <Zakim> +Luc; got it
14:57:53 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me
14:57:53 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted
14:58:04 <CraigTrim> Zakim, mute me
14:58:04 <Zakim> sorry, CraigTrim, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:58:08 <satya> satya has joined #prov
14:58:23 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
14:58:31 <Zakim> +??P9
14:59:30 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov
14:59:33 <Luc> @craigTrim, do you want to introduce yourselve at the end of the admin topic?
15:00:06 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
15:00:08 <Jun> Jun has joined #prov
15:00:12 <pgroth> pgroth has left #prov
15:00:23 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov
15:00:31 <Zakim> -TomDN
15:00:33 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:00:45 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:00:47 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:00:48 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:00:48 <CraigTrim> Sure
15:00:49 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:01:00 <Zakim> +??P1
15:01:02 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:01:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P2, +1.661.382.aabb, tlebo, Luc, ??P9, Curt_Tilmes, MacTed (muted), ??P1
15:01:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see pgroth, Jun, Curt, smiles, satya, CraigTrim, tlebo, Paolo, khalidbelhajjame, TomDN, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, sandro, trackbot, stain
15:01:16 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
15:01:24 <Zakim> +??P32
15:01:40 <satya> Zakim, ??P32 is me
15:01:40 <Zakim> +satya; got it
15:01:41 <Luc> proposed: to accept Minutes of the June 7, 2012 Telecon 
15:01:41 <Zakim> +??P18
15:01:47 <stephenc> stephenc has joined #prov
15:01:51 <Curt> +1
15:01:56 <satya> +1
15:01:56 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P18 is me
15:01:58 <tlebo> +1
15:01:59 <smiles> +1
15:02:00 <TomDN> +1
15:02:00 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
15:02:01 <CraigTrim> +1
15:02:10 <dgarijo> +0 (I attended partially)
15:02:12 <Zakim> +TomDN
15:02:14 <jun_> jun_ has joined #prov
15:02:25 <Paolo> +1 but not sure I have seen the minutes
15:02:34 <Luc> resolved: Minutes of the June 7, 2012 Telecon
15:03:01 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
15:03:06 <Paolo> action on Luc: issue of collection membership completeness
15:03:06 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - on
15:03:21 <Paolo> Paolo and Luc consider this action complete
15:03:26 <Zakim> +??P4
15:03:41 <Paolo> new member CraigTrim
15:04:08 <Paolo> Craig  IBM very interested in provenance -- have been disseminating current results on WG within IBM
15:04:27 <Paolo> Craig still catching up, main role is to disseminate results within IBM
15:04:37 <Paolo> CRaig will be at the F2F
15:04:39 <Luc> topic: F2F3
<Luc>Summary: Topics for discussion at the face to face meeting have been put up on wiki. Timetable will be finalized early next week. Aims are 1) to make progress towards last call,  2) decide on and schedule  work on other documents (notes and outreach), and 3) prepare call for implementation
15:04:51 <pgroth>
15:05:33 <Paolo> pgroth F2F will include an update on status -- then focus on last call
15:06:03 <Paolo> pgroth what remains to be done going into last call, what is the outreach strategy 
15:06:42 <Paolo> pgroth discussion on notes as well as additional "outreach" notes (work with for example)
15:06:56 <Luc> q?
15:06:57 <Paolo> pgroth also discussion on implementations
15:07:14 <Paolo> (can't open the program page at w3c...0
15:07:36 <pgroth> if you have other topics please let us know
15:07:37 <Luc> q?
15:07:40 <dgarijo> @Paolo: I think the whole wiki is down
15:07:52 <pgroth> wiki is very shaky
15:07:53 <Luc> topic: Updates
<luc>Summary: Progress on the various documents was discussed. Action-92 is set on Graham to provide an example of contextualization which may break rdf semantics.
15:08:02 <Paolo> @daniel back on now
15:08:20 <dgarijo> I can scribe
15:08:21 <tlebo> I'll scribe
15:08:26 <tlebo> go ahead, Dani
15:08:28 <dgarijo> ok
15:08:40 <dgarijo> Paolo: One action on Luc about completeness (done)
15:08:51 <dgarijo> ... discussion in the list, Paolo made edits in DM
15:09:19 <dgarijo> ... there can be some inconsistencies sometimes
15:09:47 <dgarijo> ... another issue, about membership, has already been addressed
15:09:55 <dgarijo> ... I joined prov-o call on monday
15:10:07 <dgarijo> ... and the changes were well received
15:10:17 <Luc> q?
15:10:22 <dgarijo> Luc: any questions?
15:10:47 <Paolo> Luc contextualization still an issue: Tim? 
15:11:21 <Paolo> tlebo converged on contextualization being a case of specialization
15:11:33 <Paolo> tlebo DM has converged to that def
15:11:47 <Paolo> tlebo next step prov-o will capture that in the ontology
15:12:17 <Paolo> tlebo GK still has concerns about violating /breaking RDF semantics -- GK invited to discuss
15:12:52 <Luc> q?
15:13:01 <Paolo> tlebo  is contextualization at risk? concerns that it's going too far, its capabilities don't warrant the extra level of explanation for that construct
15:13:53 <Paolo> Luc: setting an action on Graham to elaborate on his concern and provide an example 
15:14:31 <Paolo> Luc: useful to see how the construct is expressed in RDF. when is this happening?
15:14:37 <pgroth>
15:14:37 <Paolo> tlebo: early next week
15:15:33 <pgroth> +q
15:15:35 <Paolo> Luc: should contextualization be in the doc, or marked as "at risk"? propose to address this after the review, and make this a question to reviewers
15:15:39 <dgarijo> yes, I think it is reasonable
15:15:43 <Paolo> tlebo: agree
15:15:58 <khalidbelhajjame> I agree
15:16:18 <Paolo> pgroth: need not be a question to reviewers -- it will be addressed if it does come up during review
15:16:37 <pgroth> ack pgroth
15:17:02 <pgroth> +q
15:17:26 <Paolo> Luc: Graham has raised an issue on contextualization so he will have an opportunity to respond to that
15:17:30 <pgroth> ack pgroth
15:17:31 <Luc> ack pg
15:17:32 <khalidbelhajjame> I guess here we are talking about internal reviewing. A more important opinion w.r.t. contextualization is that of external reviewers
15:17:52 <Paolo> tlebo: state of prov-o
15:18:00 <pgroth> @khalidbelhajjame it's important that the group is good with it
15:18:21 <Paolo> tlebo: focus on resolving dependencies on DM
15:19:03 <Paolo> tlebo: ... on getting DM settled. DM is becoming the blocker on prov-o. once dm is through, it will be easier to release prov-o
15:19:14 <Luc> q?
15:19:31 <Paolo> smiles: primer is ready to review
15:19:42 <dgarijo> @Tim: Thanks for putting all toghether in the doc, Tim.
15:20:12 <Luc> q?
15:20:19 <Paolo> Luc: no progress on Constraints, will meet at IPAW to agree on how to proceed (Luc, James, Paolo)
15:20:23 <pgroth> +q
15:20:37 <Luc> topic: Schedule for internal release and review  
<Luc>Summary: Prov-dm, prov-n, and prov-primer are now released for internal review. Reviewers were assigned to each document, and deadline set to next week, before F2F3. It is anticipated that Prov-o technical aspects will be addressed shortly, and a document ready for review by June 21.  PROV-constraints editors will meet next week, and propose a schedule for release.  The Working Group is reminded how important this review is, since the WG has to decide whether these documents will be last call working drafts.  Any review, even partial, is welcome. See agenda for details of documents and questions to address.
15:20:38 <Luc> ack pg
#15:21:16 <Paolo> TOPIC: organizing documents reviews
15:21:56 <dgarijo> yes
15:21:58 <Paolo> Luc: DM; released today, all outstanding issues addressed AFA editors are concerned
15:22:00 <TomDN> yes :)
15:22:04 <dgarijo> I'll review it for next week.
15:22:10 <khalidbelhajjame> yes, I will review it
15:22:11 <Paolo> Luc: can reviewers confirm availability
15:22:36 <khalidbelhajjame> I will review the dm in the weekend
15:22:42 <dgarijo> next wednesday?
15:22:46 <TomDN> I'm planning to review it this weekend
15:22:51 <TomDN> (in the air)
15:23:24 <Paolo> Luc: propose DM review deadline by Wed June 20th
15:23:24 <TomDN> sounds good to me
15:23:25 <pgroth> +q
15:23:55 <pgroth> ack pgroth
15:24:19 <Paolo> pgroth: additional informal reviews welcome by F2F or sooner
15:24:56 <Paolo> Luc: prov-n also released today. reviewers please confirm?
15:24:56 <TomDN> +q
15:25:03 <TomDN> zakim, unmute me
15:25:03 <Zakim> TomDN was not muted, TomDN
15:25:42 <Paolo> TomDN: stephen on hols but still planning to do the review 
15:25:44 <Luc> ack pg
15:25:47 <Luc> ack tom
15:25:55 <TomDN> s/stephen/Sam
15:26:25 <Paolo> Luc: propose PROV-N review deadline by Thu June 21st
15:26:55 <Paolo> Luc: PROV-O?
15:27:01 <dgarijo> @Luc: Khalid is not on the phone. He has told me to say that he will possibly review PROV-N as well
15:27:16 <TomDN> same here for Sam. (not available right now, but will still review the document, probable after f2f3)
15:27:37 <Paolo> tlebo: propose PROV-O ready for review July 13th
15:28:16 <Paolo> Luc: what are the outstanding issues?
15:28:57 <pgroth> +q
15:29:01 <Paolo> tlebo:  contextualization, collections, working through examples, additional narrative for a variety of terms, existing narrative needs editing, harmonizing
15:29:13 <Luc> ack pgro
15:30:00 <Paolo> pgroth: key issue for last call is tech features are frozen. List of issues here are only contextualization and collections. the latter have not changed very much
15:30:16 <Paolo> pgroth: so what are the remaining /tech/ issues?
15:30:23 <Paolo> tlebo: contextualization and final review of collections
15:30:37 <Paolo> q+
15:30:50 <pgroth> q+
15:31:00 <pgroth> he's on vacation
15:31:59 <Luc> ack paolo
15:32:51 <Paolo> pgroth: main issue with Last Call is tech issues, editing can happen afterwards
15:32:55 <Luc> q?
15:33:01 <Luc> ack pgr
15:33:14 <Paolo> pgroth: can review ontology to help separate out tech vs editorial
15:34:24 <Paolo> tlebo: technically, close to being done -- provo html needs more work. so if all that matters is technical completeness, it can be done faster
15:35:10 <pgroth> +q
15:35:21 <Paolo> Luc: sandro and Ivan confirm that it is about technical content, i.e. frozen ontology is enough. then we get a chance to clarify and explain things better
15:36:08 <Paolo> tlebo: ontology can be finalized by mid next week, and whatever falls out of it into html (examples of terms etc.)
15:36:34 <Paolo> tlebo: to be released on June 14th 
15:36:43 <Luc> ack pg
15:37:16 <Paolo> pgroth: process calls for >= 3 wks of last call feedback. 
15:38:02 <Paolo> Luc: Sam, pgroth, Luc to review prov-o
15:38:17 <Paolo> pgroth: confirms
15:38:30 <CraigTrim> sure
15:38:54 <Paolo> Craig  added to list of reviewers
15:39:21 <Paolo> Luc: constraints doc: not sure when it will be ready. Will report back to group at F2F with an estimate
15:39:22 <Luc> q?
15:39:24 <pgroth> +q
15:40:08 <Paolo> pgroth: the constraints doc "falls out" of the DM -- is it on rec track?
15:40:16 <Paolo> Luc: it is on Rec track
15:40:43 <Paolo> Luc: we can pull it out and possibly make it a note 
15:41:12 <Paolo> pgroth: concerned about timing -- lagging considerably behind and it's a complicated doc
15:41:50 <Paolo> Luc: yes, but it has been simplified. Also, no need to release all docs at the same time
15:42:04 <Luc> q?
15:42:06 <Luc> ack pg
15:42:29 <Paolo> Luc: primer doc
15:42:45 <Paolo> smiles: ready for review
15:42:53 <Paolo> Luc: reviewers?
15:43:06 <TomDN> I'll review it
15:43:07 <pgroth> volunteer
15:43:22 <pgroth> +q to ask craig
15:43:32 <stephenc> OK, I volunteer
15:43:39 <CraigTrim> I've already been reviewing it, so go ahead and me in too
15:43:57 <Luc> ack pg
15:43:57 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to ask craig
15:44:16 <Paolo> smiles: familiarity with prov-n desirable... (Paolo) 
15:44:16 <CraigTrim> agreed - it's been a good doc so far back to IBM
15:44:33 <Luc> prov-primer reviewers: paolo, paul, stephenc, craig, luc
15:45:00 <Luc> q?
15:45:22 <Paolo> Luc: update to prov-aq to be addressed later
15:45:51 <Paolo> Luc: questions for reviewers:  can the doc be released as a /regular/ WD? if not, what are the blocking issues
15:46:21 <Paolo> Luc: can the doc be pub as last call WD? see link to LC def by W3C 
15:47:01 <Paolo> Luc: in particular, reviewers who have raised issues, can they be closed?
15:47:48 <Paolo> Luc: proposal wasREvisionOf -> wasRevisedFrom:  no consensus, so can reviewers look at that
15:48:37 <Paolo> Luc: also in DM: "primitive data types" that are in RDF. However RDF is changing, so which version are we referring to? RDF 1.1 WD data types are different
15:49:15 <Luc> q?
15:49:18 <Paolo> Luc: worked with Ivan to make us robust wrt changes in RDF 1.1 -- should we list all data types as 1.1? reviewers should look into this
15:49:35 <Paolo> q+
15:49:58 <tlebo> paolo: what if someone says "no"?
15:50:10 <pgroth> +q
15:50:28 <Luc> ack paol
15:50:48 <tlebo> pgroth: we look at the issues and get to a resolution.
15:51:08 <tlebo> ... if no resolution, then we can vote.
15:51:12 <Paolo> pgroth: many options available -- if it is clear there is no resolution, we can vote. 
15:51:44 <Luc> q?
15:51:47 <Luc> ack pg
15:52:12 <pgroth> +q
15:52:37 <Paolo> pgroth: is there a LC for notes (primer)?
15:52:52 <Paolo> Luc: LC question does not apply to primer
15:53:43 <Paolo> Luc: decision can be deferred, to allow for further changes to the primer
15:53:44 <Luc> q?
15:53:51 <Luc> ack pg
15:54:10 <Paolo> pgroth: state of PAQ: next WD ready by next Tue
15:54:55 <Paolo> pgroth: after F2F we'll look at PAQ in detail again
15:55:13 <Luc> q?
15:55:14 <TomDN> +q
15:56:00 <TomDN> ack tomdn
15:56:11 <Paolo> Luc:  call arrangements for next week?
15:56:15 <Zakim> -??P1
15:56:23 <Paolo> pgroth: call should be cancelled next week
15:56:51 <Luc> q?
15:56:55 <Paolo> Luc: call cancelled
15:57:07 <Zakim> -??P2
15:57:09 <Zakim> - +1.661.382.aabb
15:57:10 <Zakim> -tlebo
15:57:10 <Zakim> -??P9
15:57:10 <dgarijo> byee
15:57:16 <Zakim> -pgroth
15:57:18 <TomDN> (I'll also be driving from San Francisco to SB on monday, by the way)
15:57:20 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
15:57:23 <Zakim> -Luc
15:57:24 <Zakim> -dgarijo
15:57:26 <pgroth> trackbot, end telecon
15:57:26 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:57:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:57:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate trackbot
15:57:34 <Zakim> -??P4
15:57:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:57:35 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
15:57:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +329331aaaa, TomDN, pgroth, +1.661.382.aabb, +1.518.276.aacc, tlebo, +44.238.059.aadd, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, MacTed, satya, dgarijo