From Provenance WG Wiki
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16:01:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov 16:01:42 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-prov-irc 16:01:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 16:01:44 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov 16:01:46 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 16:01:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 16:01:47 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 16:01:47 <trackbot> Date: 01 March 2012 16:01:56 <MacTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:01:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-prov-minutes.html MacTed 16:01:57 <Luc> Luc has joined #prov 16:02:02 <MacTed> RRSAgent, make logs public 16:02:08 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here? 16:02:08 <Zakim> sorry, MacTed, I don't know what conference this is 16:02:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see Luc, Zakim, RRSAgent, kai, Mike_, Curt, tlebo, SamCoppens, gk1, GK, MacTed, trackbot, stain, sandro 16:02:11 <MacTed> Zakim, this is PROV 16:02:12 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov 16:02:14 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_(PROV)11:00AM 16:02:18 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here? 16:02:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see tlebo, +1.443.708.aaaa, SamCoppens, Curt_Tilmes, ??P4, [OpenLink], ??P18 16:02:20 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov 16:02:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see khalidbelhajjame, Luc, Zakim, RRSAgent, kai, Mike_, Curt, tlebo, SamCoppens, gk1, GK, MacTed, trackbot, stain, sandro 16:02:27 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me 16:02:29 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 16:02:30 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 16:02:37 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 16:02:39 <Zakim> -??P18 16:02:43 <Luc> trackbot, start telcon 16:02:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 16:02:47 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 16:02:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 16:02:48 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 16:02:48 <trackbot> Date: 01 March 2012 16:02:55 <Zakim> +??P18 16:02:56 <Zakim> +Sandro 16:03:04 <GK> zakim, ??p18 is me 16:03:04 <Zakim> +GK; got it 16:03:14 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 16:03:14 <Zakim> ok, Luc, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started 16:03:31 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.01 16:03:35 <satya> satya has joined #prov 16:03:41 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 16:03:41 <stephenc> stephenc has joined #prov 16:03:50 <Zakim> +??P22 16:03:56 <Luc> Chair: Paul Groth 16:04:04 <Luc> have we got a scribe? 16:04:17 <Zakim> +??P25 16:04:26 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P25 is me 16:04:26 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it 16:04:29 <Luc> Scribe: GK 16:04:39 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov 16:04:40 <Luc> Topic: Admin <pgroth> Summary: Beyond general admin, minutes of the F2F2 meeting were approved. The working group was reminded of the time change in the US. 16:05:09 <pgroth> Minutes of the Feb 23 2012 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-02-23 16:05:10 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 16:05:16 <GK> Vote on minutes of last week telecon 16:05:21 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 16:05:23 <Curt> +1 16:05:24 <tlebo> +1 16:05:26 <SamCoppens> +1 16:05:28 <dgarijo> +1 16:05:30 <satya> +1 16:05:31 <GK> OK, with revervartion per email 16:05:35 <Mike_> +1 16:05:37 <kai> +0, wasn't there 16:06:18 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov 16:06:33 <Zakim> +??P30 16:06:35 <tlebo> gk: did we explicitly agree to 3 parts, or a nod to the editors? 16:07:06 <dcorsar> dcorsar has joined #prov 16:07:12 <GK> +1 16:07:12 <pgroth> Vote Minutes of F2F2: 16:07:16 <Paolo> +1 16:07:18 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-02-02 16:07:19 <tlebo> +1 16:07:21 <dgarijo> +1 16:07:24 <kai> +1 16:07:25 <Zakim> +??P36 16:07:37 <Luc> ACCEPTED: Minutes of the Feb 23 2012 Telecon 16:07:37 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-02-03 16:07:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a] 16:07:58 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov 16:08:04 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov 16:08:04 <Curt> 0 (not present) 16:08:08 <GK> +1 (I think) 16:08:08 <MacTed> +0 16:08:11 <Mike_> 0 (not present) 16:08:15 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov 16:08:17 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 16:08:23 <smiles> +1 (from a very quick look) 16:08:24 <SamCoppens> +0 (not present) 16:08:36 <jcheney> +1 16:08:46 <Luc> ACCEPTED: Minutes of the second face to face meeting (F2F2) are approved 16:08:55 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open 16:09:03 <GK> Open actions 16:09:24 <GK> PROV-O - not yet due 16:09:54 <GK> Action-63? Khalid needs more time - con tinues 16:10:07 <GK> Actions 64-67 continue 16:10:18 <GK> Action 57 continues 16:10:18 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 57 16:10:24 <dgarijo> @Khalid: Jun said she was interested in helping you. Maybe she'll contact you. 16:10:43 <GK> All please note that next teleconferences 11 mar - 25 Mar are one hour earlier in Europe 16:10:55 <MacTed> sending .ics files as invitations, based on Boston-local-time, helps get correct times into calendars... 16:11:08 <GK> NOTE - time shift ONLY for Europe 16:11:13 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me 16:11:13 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted 16:11:20 <pgroth> Timetable for Release 16:11:24 <khalidbelhajjame> @Daniel, yes Jun sent me a document, which I will use in the structure that I ll propose 16:11:30 <pgroth> Topic: Timetable for Release <pgroth> Summary: A revised time table for the working group was presented by the chairs. The working group was reminded that this was an aggressive schedule but could be achieved through focused work. 16:11:39 <dgarijo> @Khalid: great 16:11:55 <pgroth> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An15kLxkaMA3dFVCWm9aREZFemNOYjlGQjdPRkdFZXc#gid=0 16:12:07 <GK> Timetable for syncronized release of PROV-DM and PROV-O 16:12:41 <GK> Paul: Timetable is very aggressive. 16:12:47 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo 16:12:53 <GK> .. Many documents will follow same timeline 16:13:26 <GK> .. beginning March - aim top have public WD5 at end of March for internal review 16:13:36 <GK> .. 2-week review period 16:14:19 <GK> .. feedback by ?? April, last call for all specifications at end of May 16:14:39 <GK> .. Candidate REC in August 16:14:49 <GK> .. Proposed REC in October 16:14:55 <GK> .. REC in Jan 2013 16:15:22 <GK> The next document needing to be looked at is PROV-O : 16:15:56 <GK> .. WD2 draft public mid-April, then same timeframe as DM 16:16:48 <GK> .. PROV0-AQ and Primer to follow same procedure as DM and Ont (End Mar internal, April(?) public) 16:17:08 <pgroth> +q 16:17:13 <pgroth> q- 16:17:16 <Luc> q? 16:17:18 <smiles> q+ 16:17:20 <GK> Paul: Need to be aggressive in ,making progress, cull topics that inhibit progress. 16:18:06 <GK> smiles: what happens after WD3 for Primer and PAQ? 16:18:22 <pgroth> q? 16:18:25 <pgroth> ack smiles 16:18:27 <pgroth> q? 16:18:31 <GK> Paul: those are notes,m can be less aggressive, but need syncronized set for next round. 16:18:37 <pgroth> q? 16:18:53 <pgroth> PROV-DM 16:19:03 <GK> Topic: Update on PROV-DM: <pgroth> Summary: Luc presented the current status of the prov-dm and then discussed the plans for WD5 and highlighted the remaining issues left and also that an improved organization would be adopted in the document. The group approved the simplification of specializationOf, alternateOf and hasNote into binary relations. 16:19:41 <GK> Luc: going through comments, have raised issues for each. This will lead to completion of WD4. 16:20:36 <pgroth> q/ 16:20:39 <pgroth> q? 16:20:45 <GK> .. plan for WD5 to tackle remaining issues in the charter, (collections, ..., ..., derivation). Also Jun's comments about structure of DM (why core + common relations). Edxpect all core technical issues to be addressed by WD5. 16:20:52 <pgroth> q? 16:21:28 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/index.php?title=ProvDMWorkingDraft5&action=edit§ion=2 16:21:33 <GK> Paul: on agenda for 2-3 weeks, proposal for simplifying several relations in DM to make it more compatible with Ontology. 16:21:43 <pgroth> Proposal: remove id and and attribute from alternateOf, specializationOf, and hasNote 16:21:56 <tlebo> +1 16:22:00 <dgarijo> +1 16:22:01 <pgroth> q? 16:22:07 <Curt> +1 16:22:07 <GK> alternativeOf, specializationOf, hasNote to be binary relations. 16:22:15 <pgroth> q? 16:22:17 <GK> q+ to ask if these are still needed? 16:22:18 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 16:22:22 <Mike_> +1 16:22:25 <jcheney> q+ 16:22:48 <pgroth> ack GK 16:22:48 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask if these are still needed? 16:23:24 <pgroth> ack jcheney 16:23:28 <GK> Paul: will deal with that separately. 16:23:54 <kai> +1 16:23:55 <GK> Jcheney: (can't hear clearly) 16:24:21 <pgroth> q? 16:24:26 <GK> James asked if binary relations contained typo. A> yes, there is typo. 16:24:27 <pgroth> Proposal: remove id and and attribute from alternateOf, specializationOf, and hasNote 16:24:30 <tlebo> +1 16:24:31 <Curt> +1 16:24:32 <jcheney> +1 16:24:32 <smiles> +1 16:24:32 <MacTed> +1 16:24:33 <kai> +1 16:24:33 <Mike_> +1 16:24:33 <SamCoppens> +1+1 16:24:33 <satya> +1 16:24:34 <stephenc> +1 16:24:36 <dcorsar> +1 16:24:36 <GK> +1 16:24:37 <dgarijo> +1 16:24:39 <zednik> +1 16:24:41 <Paolo> +1 16:24:42 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 16:24:50 <pgroth> accepted: remove id and and attribute from alternateOf, specializationOf, and hasNote 16:25:05 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-O <pgroth> Summary: an extensive status review of the prov-o progress was given. Tim presented a system for monitoring alignment based on the ProvRDF mappings page as well as progress in cataloging issues. 16:25:07 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.01#PROV-O.27s_prov-wg_telecon_report_2012-03-01 16:25:11 <GK> Next topic: PROV-O : 16:25:12 <jcheney> @GK: sorry, lots of us are all in same room at Dagstuhl so trying to avoid feedback 16:26:12 <GK> (Missed something) Progress on design for catalogue of examples. Hoping for this second round to be final structure for examples. 16:26:43 <GK> .. issues with alignment between DM, Primer and PROV-O. Have overview wiki page (link?) 16:27:01 <GK> .. fielding issues from reviewers 16:27:41 <GK> .. planning organization for next rev of prov-o HTML doc, following style of SiOC/FOAF/OPMV... 16:27:46 <pgroth> q? 16:27:50 <Luc> q+ 16:28:09 <Luc> q- 16:28:17 <GK> Luc: were you going to ask DM people to do something similar. 16:28:40 <pgroth> q? 16:28:43 <GK> Tim: asking for annotations in document to facilitate comparison. Will send email with details. 16:28:46 <GK> q+ 16:28:51 <pgroth> ack GK 16:29:20 <pgroth> q? 16:29:24 <tlebo> http://aquarius.tw.rpi.edu/prov-wg/provrdf-owl-coverage 16:29:35 <pgroth> q? 16:29:41 <GK> Cool :) 16:30:02 <pgroth> q? 16:30:21 <GK> (GK question was about use of services: github for compare and RPI service for formatting; A: yes) 16:30:48 <dgarijo> @tlebo:wasquotedFrom not mentioned? 16:31:00 <tlebo> @gk, the commands in the email thread can be ignored. the wg can focus on the results at http://aquarius.tw.rpi.edu/prov-wg/provrdf-owl-coverage 16:31:29 <GK> Khalid: need to think about minimal ... examples for every concept and property ... 16:32:00 <GK> ... details to help structure the ontology better. Also structuring the ontology into "models" - what does this mean? 16:32:13 <GK> @tlebo I was curious about thye tooling :) 16:32:21 <pgroth> Topic: Example Catalog <pgroth> Summary: Tim presented a comprehensive structure for creating and documenting examples. The group approved this structure and the notion of having such a catalog. Curt, Sam, Mike, Tim and Luc all agreed to populate the catalog. 16:32:32 <GK> Next Topic: example catalogue 16:32:50 <GK> Tim put together a structure for this 16:32:53 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PROV_examples 16:34:40 <GK> Tim: link to description of proposed structure. Section 3 what we're trying to organize, section 4 patterns of organization. Use number to ensure uniqueness. Title optional, might change if that helps. Different directories for different formats. 16:34:53 <tlebo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-1/rdf/convert/asn/eg-1.asn 16:35:38 <GK> .. transcriptions section... above path indicates in and out formats, can be extended across multiple steps 16:36:04 <GK> .. query directory for query tests; compare for comparing output of queries 16:36:30 <GK> .. document at any level for adding notes 16:37:10 <GK> .. wiki namespace for references to wiki 16:37:33 <GK> .. links to web pages 16:37:41 <pgroth> q? 16:37:54 <pgroth> q? 16:38:02 <GK> @tlebo looked good to me first time, and getting better I think :) 16:38:15 <tlebo> @gk, thanks. More feedback welcome :-) 16:38:28 <pgroth> Consensus that we adopt this example catalog approach 16:38:31 <Paolo> +1 16:38:32 <satya> +1 16:38:33 <smiles> +1 looks good 16:38:36 <zednik> +1 16:38:39 <kai> +1 16:38:39 <MacTed> +1 16:38:40 <GK> Chair declares consensus to adopt this approach 16:39:00 <pgroth> Accepted: adopt example catalog approach from agenda 16:39:07 <tlebo> thanks, I'll press forward and make some real examples that people can follow. 16:39:11 <khalidbelhajjame> Can we add a link to the wiki page created by Tim to the main wiki page 16:39:43 <pgroth> q? 16:39:44 <GK> Paul: call for volunteers to populate with examples 16:39:47 <tlebo> +1 16:39:54 <Curt> +1 16:39:55 <SamCoppens> +1 16:40:04 <Mike_> +1 16:40:27 <Luc> +1 16:40:35 <pgroth> Volunteers - Curt, Sam, Mike, Tim, Luc 16:40:49 <pgroth> q? 16:40:49 <tlebo> please bug me if you have any questions about the organization. 16:40:52 <GK> Paul: Others may contribute later! 16:41:00 <GK> (Slick chairing :) 16:41:05 <tlebo> q+ 16:41:10 <pgroth> ack tlebo 16:41:40 <pgroth> Topic: open discussion around accounts <pgroth> Summary: The group had a discussion about revisiting the F2F2 decision around simplification/removal of the account construct. It was agreed that this discussion could be reopened but with the proviso that this discussion not impact progress on the deliverables. It was also suggested that accounts may better be discussed in a note rather than a recommendation to ensure on time delivery. 16:41:44 <GK> Tim: asks to revisit F2F decision about accounts - believed we had removed account scoping, but still have bundles. 16:41:47 <pgroth> q? 16:42:45 <Luc> q+ 16:43:16 <GK> GK: had same understanding, but wonderedf if "bundles" might be called "accounts". But not strong feeling about this. 16:44:01 <GK> Luc: mechanism for giving name to provenance assertions is outside scope of DM. But assume that mechanism exists. 16:44:06 <khalidbelhajjame> That's was my understanding too. When we need to speak about the provenance of a collection of provenance assertions, then we simply use Entity 16:44:22 <pgroth> q? 16:44:22 <GK> .. would like to see accounts in model, but OIK to compromose. 16:44:26 <pgroth> ack Luc 16:44:45 <pgroth> q? 16:44:55 <GK> I recall something along the lines of what Luc said, too (assume mechanism for labeling bundles) 16:45:26 <Luc> q+ 16:45:30 <GK> Paul: fundamentally agreed to make accounts a lot simpler. 16:45:48 <GK> .. deferred discussion about where the mechanism might lie. 16:46:08 <pgroth> ack Luc 16:46:30 <GK> q+ to say I think the important thing may be to not prohibit private extensions for account-like functionality, but niot necessarily define now. 16:46:32 <tlebo> q+ to say that the can of worms was citing the asserter and having name scopes. 16:46:56 <GK> Luc: can we reproduce something similar to what ? did for ? 16:47:23 <tlebo> I think Luc was citing http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvRDF#Account 16:47:30 <GK> .. what is the minimal notion of accout we can put in, without getting bogged down in details. 16:47:34 <tlebo> q? 16:47:36 <pgroth> ack GK 16:47:36 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say I think the important thing may be to not prohibit private extensions for account-like functionality, but niot necessarily define now. 16:48:14 <pgroth> ack tlebo 16:48:14 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to say that the can of worms was citing the asserter and having name scopes. 16:48:39 <GK> GK: thinks minimal notion of accounts may useful way move forwards 16:49:20 <GK> Tim: think accounts are victiome of name scope issue, but minimal notion may avoid this problem, as long as timeline not impacted. 16:49:22 <Luc> q+ 16:49:29 <pgroth> ack Luc 16:49:58 <GK> Paul: if we can do this without impacting timeline, that's good, but must not cause delay. 16:50:06 <pgroth> q? 16:50:10 <GK> Luc: we could produce a NOTE on accounts if time runs out 16:50:38 <smiles> bye 16:50:40 <GK> Meeting closed. 16:50:42 <Zakim> -[IPcaller] 16:50:43 <Zakim> -tlebo 16:50:44 <dgarijo> bye 16:50:47 <Zakim> -MacTed 16:50:49 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo 16:50:51 <Zakim> -??P22 16:50:53 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame 16:50:55 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes 16:50:57 <Zakim> -??P36 16:51:01 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a] 16:51:03 <Zakim> -Sandro 16:51:07 <Zakim> - +1.443.708.aaaa 16:51:13 <Zakim> -SamCoppens 16:51:17 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public 16:51:22 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes 16:51:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-prov-minutes.html pgroth 16:51:23 <Zakim> -??P30 16:51:29 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon 16:51:29 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees 16:51:36 <GK> @paul: are you Ok from here - have meeting to retrun to now 16:51:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:51:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-prov-minutes.html trackbot 16:51:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye 16:51:38 <RRSAgent> I see no action items 16:51:39 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been tlebo, +1.443.708.aaaa, SamCoppens, Curt_Tilmes, MacTed, Sandro, GK, [IPcaller], khalidbelhajjame, Satya_Sahoo # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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