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Chatlog 2012-01-05

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15:38:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
15:38:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/05-prov-irc
15:38:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:38:19 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
15:38:21 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
15:38:21 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:38:21 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 
15:38:22 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:38:22 <trackbot> Date: 05 January 2012
15:38:22 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 22 minutes
15:38:36 <GK1> GK1 has joined #prov
15:38:38 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.05
15:39:00 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
15:39:02 <Luc> Scribe: GK
15:39:20 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 
15:50:26 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov
15:53:38 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
15:53:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:54:01 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:54:01 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
15:55:28 <Zakim> +??P56
15:55:55 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov
15:55:59 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aaaa
15:56:12 <Luc> zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me
15:56:12 <Zakim> +Luc; got it
15:56:17 <GK> GK has joined #prov
15:56:23 <Zakim> +??P58
15:56:35 <Paolo> zakim, ??P58 is me
15:56:35 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it
15:57:00 <Luc> Regrets: Stain
15:57:57 <Zakim> +??P7
15:58:17 <GK> zakim, ??p7 is me
15:58:19 <Zakim> +GK; got it
15:58:46 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
15:59:01 <Luc> scribe: GK
16:00:48 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
16:01:41 <Luc> topic: Admin
<Luc>Summary: Minutes of the last teleconference were approved. Please volunteer for scribing!
16:02:22 <Zakim> +??P9
16:02:23 <GK> Previous minutes: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-12-22
16:02:28 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:02:30 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P9 is me
16:02:33 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:02:35 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:02:38 <Zakim> +??P11
16:02:39 <JimMcCusker> JimMcCusker has joined #prov
16:02:48 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aabb
16:02:50 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
16:02:52 <Zakim> +sandro
16:02:56 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
16:02:58 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:03:00 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:03:01 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:03:02 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
16:03:09 <Luc> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the Dec. 22 telecon
16:03:19 <GK> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-12-22
16:03:20 <Zakim> +??P29
16:03:28 <Paolo> +1
16:03:32 <tlebo> +1
16:03:32 <dgarijo> +1
16:03:33 <GK> +0 (not present)
16:03:36 <smiles> 0 (absent)
16:04:00 <JimMcCusker> 0 ( absent)
16:04:13 <Luc> APPROVED  the minutes of the Dec. 22 telecon
16:04:17 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
16:04:30 <Zakim> +??P33
16:04:37 <jcheney> zakim, ??p33 is me
16:04:37 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
16:04:41 <GK> Topic: Disseminating Working Drafts
<luc> Summary: We discussed ways of advertising and disseminating our working drafts. Paul will draft a blog overviewing all prov-wg documents. Luc will draft a blog explaining changes in prov-dm. Everybody is invited to share documents within their respective communities. The public-prov mailing list will be used for announcement, and the newly created public-prov-dev mailing list will focus on development issues.
16:05:22 <Luc> q?
16:05:28 <pgroth> q+
16:05:45 <Luc> ack pgr
16:06:10 <GK> PaulG: suggest writing up blog post describing how documents sit together...
16:06:34 <smiles> q+
16:06:48 <Luc> ack smi
16:06:49 <GK> Luc: This could be used as initial draft for document of WG deliverables
16:06:53 <Zakim> +Yolanda
16:06:59 <Zakim> +??P40
16:07:14 <GK> SimonM: useful for linking to when posting to other mailing lists to solicit feedback.
16:07:41 <GK> ... also useful would be standard few lines that can be referenced.
16:07:56 <GK> ... and direct readers to blog post.
16:08:02 <Luc> q?
16:08:11 <GK> PaulG: will write this as abstract to blog.
16:08:24 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
16:08:29 <Luc> action: pgroth to write blog overviewing prov-wg documents
16:08:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-50 - Write blog overviewing prov-wg documents [on Paul Groth - due 2012-01-12].
16:08:51 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aacc
16:09:08 <tlebo> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:09:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P56, Luc, Paolo, GK, khalidbelhajjame, MacTed (muted), ??P11, +1.315.330.aabb, sandro, [IPcaller], ??P29, jcheney, Yolanda, ??P40, +1.518.633.aacc
16:09:17 <tlebo> zakim, I am aabb
16:09:17 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it
16:09:39 <dgarijo> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:09:39 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
16:09:44 <GK> Luc: description of difference between 1st and 3rd PROV-DM drafts would be helpful, maybe?
16:10:00 <Luc> action: Luc to write blog explaining diffs between prov-dm wd3 and wd1
16:10:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-51 - Write blog explaining diffs between prov-dm wd3 and wd1 [on Luc Moreau - due 2012-01-12].
16:10:05 <GK> PaulG: suggest Paul does overview, and Luc does difference sum,mary later
16:10:21 <StephenCresswell> StephenCresswell has joined #prov
16:10:26 <GK> Luc: Has connection TF lined up reviewers?
16:10:32 <JimMcCusker> +q
16:10:40 <Luc> ack Jim
16:11:01 <GK> JimMc: Either Satya or I should engaged OBO(?) community
16:11:11 <Paolo> q+
16:11:21 <Luc> ack paolo
16:11:24 <GK> ... OBO = Open Bio Ontologies
16:11:45 <GK> Paolo: meeting on provenance ... (missed details)
16:11:51 <JimMcCusker> http://obofoundry.org/
16:11:56 <tlebo> @paolo, what meeting?
16:12:06 <satya> satya has joined #prov
16:12:25 <GK> meeting is Dagshtul seminar at end february
16:12:50 <pgroth> I thought I replied james?
16:12:56 <pgroth> anyway, offline :-)
16:13:03 <Luc> you did, and I did too ;-)
16:13:18 <pgroth> +q
16:13:19 <GK> jcheney: still planning schedule for meeting.
16:13:51 <GK> Luc: I was focusing on dissemination in short term - next couple of weeks.
16:14:11 <pgroth> +1
16:14:22 <Paolo> Q?
16:14:34 <GK> Luc: can we repeat blog exercise similar to Paul's simple example?  Any takers?
16:14:53 <Luc> q?
16:14:57 <GK> ... more small examples to promote use and purpose of prov-o
16:15:11 <Luc> q?
16:15:23 <Luc> ack pg
16:15:50 <GK> PaulG: we have public provenance mailing list - can we get more people to subscribe?
16:15:55 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aadd
16:16:05 <tlebo> q+ to ask if we should/can make an announce list?
16:16:24 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aadd
16:16:29 <pgroth> that's this http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-comments/
16:16:55 <GK> Tim: can we have an announcement list
16:17:10 <GK> ??:  agree, and also a developers list?
16:17:28 <tlebo> zednik ^^
16:18:40 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aaee
16:18:56 <GK> Sandro: have WG, public and dev as common pattern (?).  Sometimes, dev list is pretty much unused.
16:19:36 <sandro> checking ----    public-prov@w3.org exists.    (and prov-wg and prog-comments)
16:19:36 <dgarijo> +1 to that, although we started already with the best practices..
16:19:48 <GK> Luc: back to asking the prov-o team about blogging examples
16:20:59 <GK> GK: blogs also work as web pages which are easily linked to, tweeted, etc.
16:21:03 <satya> Paul, +1
16:21:26 <GK> Luc: asks sandro if we can create an announce mailing list
16:21:55 <GK> Sandro: we can, but recommend against unless other public list gets too busy. 
16:22:11 <pgroth> +q
16:22:31 <pgroth> ack pgroth
16:22:49 <tlebo> +1 public-prov
16:22:49 <GK> Sandro: public-prov (not public-prov-wg) could be used for announcements
16:22:58 <tlebo> (didn't realize we dump onto public-prov-wg)
16:23:12 <GK> Luc: can we also have a developer mailing list?
16:24:07 <satya> q+
16:24:19 <GK> Sandro: I'll create a dev list very soon
16:24:24 <tlebo> I'll consider blogging
16:24:27 <Luc> ack tle
16:24:27 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to ask if we should/can make an announce list?
16:24:28 <tlebo> q-
16:24:35 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aaee
16:24:46 <GK> tlebo: I'll consider blogging, would prefer to focus on documents
16:24:52 <Luc> ack sat
16:24:59 <sandro> q+
16:25:33 <JimMcCusker> +q
16:25:36 <satya> sorry lost audio
16:26:05 <Luc> ack san
16:26:24 <GK> sandro: public-prov-dev, anyone can post, or only subscribers?
16:26:35 <Luc> ack jim
16:26:44 <GK> GK: if spam not a problem, suggest open
16:27:09 <GK> Sandro: I'll make it open.  List now exists.
16:27:13 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-dev/ created
16:27:19 <dgarijo> so I guess this is the list where we'll move our prov-o discussions.
16:27:32 <GK> Topic: Plan for Second Working Drafts (continued)
<luc>Summary: The editors of the prov-primer and prov-o documents discussed their plan for future working drafts. It was agreed that F2F2 is a good target to aim at, to release new versions of the documents synchronized with the current state of prov-dm.
16:28:31 <GK> SimonM: primer - 1st PWD should be out soon. Hopefully next week.
16:28:44 <GK> ... need to ensure compatibility with other documents.
16:29:02 <GK> ... aim to have improved version by F2F meeting
16:29:22 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aaff
16:29:34 <GK> ... longer term, next release 6 months with everything up to date, and better content quality 
16:30:05 <GK> ... accessible to wide audience, libraries, bloggers, semantic web, etc. can use to get started
16:30:42 <GK> ... be clear what prov-dm means ontologically, how to integrate domain specific with prov-dm
16:31:31 <Luc> Can you confirm 6 months? See http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/groups.html#three-month-rule
16:31:35 <Luc> q?
16:31:39 <GK> Yolanda: have lots of comments about assertions and derivations: need to make distinction clear in primer.
16:32:27 <Luc> q?
16:32:32 <GK> GK: how do assertions and derivations get captured in RDF?  I don't see it.
16:33:07 <Luc> q?
16:33:19 <GK> Yolanda: need to explain what is meant by these terms on documents.
16:33:21 <satya> @Simon, prov-o describes what prov-dm means ontologically - did you mean something in addition to prov-o?
16:33:51 <GK> Luc: 6 months is a long time to next release.
16:34:20 <GK> ... also W3C has "3 month rule" for updates to active documents.
16:34:52 <GK> SimonM: our long term aims were on a 6 month period, but we can make interime releases.
16:35:18 <sandro> three month rule, fyi: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/groups#three-month-rule
16:35:26 <GK> Luc: could you please identify (offline) date for next working draft?
16:35:27 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aaff
16:35:39 <GK> SimonM: OK.  Maybe March/April?
16:35:57 <Luc> q?
16:36:12 <GK> Luc: Prov-O - what are your plans?
16:36:20 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aagg
16:36:46 <GK> Khalid: need to align prov-o with current prov-dm, other topics not yet considered...
16:37:02 <GK> ... also have not determined next release date
16:37:33 <GK> ... Stephan will try to identify potential users from those identified by connections TF
16:37:53 <GK> Luc: can you please come back with a planned release date.
16:37:56 <Luc> q?
16:37:59 <dgarijo> we finished half of the list, so hopefully in a couple of telecons we're done with the alignement.
16:38:09 <Zakim> -Yolanda
16:38:23 <tlebo> satya
16:38:24 <pgroth> can't hear you satya
16:38:26 <dgarijo> @GK Satya
16:38:47 <pgroth> now
16:38:51 <khalidbelhajjame> we can hear you now
16:39:01 <Luc> the three month rule: a new draft of each active technical report at least once every three months
16:39:03 <Paolo> @GK satya
16:39:28 <satya> We plan to release next pwd by Feb - given the three month rule
16:40:07 <satya> and a major update before 2nd F2F
16:40:27 <GK> Luc: apart from 3 month rule, would be nice to have stable document by F2F meeting.
16:40:40 <GK> ... doesn't need to be formally released.
16:40:57 <Luc> q?
16:40:58 <GK> Khalid: should be fairly closely aligned by F2F meeting
16:41:08 <satya> we can discuss this during our call also next Monday
16:41:13 <GK> Topic: prov-dm
16:41:17 <satya> sure, I was planning to initiate release process by end of Jan/first week of Feb
16:41:20 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aagg
16:41:39 <Luc> @satya, it looks good
<luc>Summary: Paolo has been working on specializationOf/alternateOf and collections, and feels that there is a good convergence of opinions on these topics.  When  the sections are ready, the WG will be invited to review and raise issues in the usual way. The aim is to have a document ready for internal review on Jan 19th, with a view to vote for release the following week. The editors have identified issues that they wish to close. Issues authors please review proposals, close issues and/or continue discussions by email.
16:41:39 <GK> Paolo: "complementOf" issue is reaching convergence.
16:41:47 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#record-complement-of
16:41:58 <GK> New next is (at link above)
16:42:29 <GK> q+ to say I still need to review the actual text, but agree with the direction of discussions
16:43:07 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aahh
16:43:08 <GK> Paolo: the term "compelentOf" is still used, we need to formally agree new terms
16:43:34 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#record-Collection
16:43:45 <GK> paolo: collections, has been substantially simplified
16:44:13 <GK> ... have long response from Stian to work though, but we do seem to be converging
16:44:27 <GK> ... hope to finish this successfully (in next week?)
16:44:49 <tlebo> +q to ask about global versus local naming in "complementOf" section and rest of document.
16:45:03 <GK> ... issue about whether collections actually belong - discussion on list, along with discussion of what is domain specific.
16:45:48 <tlebo> +1 to how the new specializationOf section looks
16:46:06 <Luc> q?
16:46:08 <Luc> ack gk
16:46:08 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say I still need to review the actual text, but agree with the direction of discussions
16:46:26 <GK> Tim: specialization section looks great
16:46:46 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aahh
16:46:46 <GK> ... have problem with distinction between global and local naming
16:47:15 <GK> ... think this is "very dissonant" (something that needs to be discussed?)
16:47:33 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aaii
16:47:45 <GK> Luc: there is a specific issue addressing this.
16:49:08 <tlebo> q-
16:49:45 <GK> Luc: about vote about new terminology; granularity is too coarse (?)
16:50:17 <Luc> q?
16:50:26 <GK> q+ to ask why can't vote on the text as-is, or alternatively vote on choice of terminology, or...
16:50:38 <pgroth>  q+
16:50:48 <satya> +1, I think we need to discuss over raised issue first
16:50:49 <tlebo> I'm happy to close any issues that I've raised for complementOf
16:50:50 <Luc> ack gk
16:50:50 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask why can't vote on the text as-is, or alternatively vote on choice of terminology, or...
16:50:59 <JimMcCusker> +q
16:51:30 <Luc> ack pgr
16:51:39 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aaii
16:51:47 <pgroth> ack pgroth
16:51:49 <GK> GK: only need to vote if there is disagreement
16:52:04 <GK> paulG: issue system seems to work well
16:52:56 <GK> jimMc: issue of one entity record for each identifier.  And if identifier is URI, can't enforce scoping of interpretation.
16:53:00 <Luc> q?
16:53:03 <Luc> ack jim
#16:53:22 <GK> Topic: Prov-o/Prov-dm
16:53:48 <Luc> closing issues Closed pending review: ISSUE-50: Satya ISSUE-57: Graham ISSUE-100: Satya ISSUE-105: Satya ISSUE-113: Khalid ISSUE-121: Satya ISSUE-124: Satya ISSUE-125: Satya ISSUE-126: Satya ISSUE-127: Satya ISSUE-176: Tim ISSUE-178: Tim ISSUE-191: Satya ISSUE-201: Satya To be answered: ISSUE-185: Satya ISSUE-186: Satya ISSUE-187: Satya ISSUE-188: Satya ISSUE-189: Satya ISSUE-192: Satya ISSUE-193: Satya ISSUE-200: Satya [edit]
16:53:54 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aajj
16:54:02 <GK> Luc: aiming for release by end of month
16:54:04 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.05#prov-dm
#16:54:13 <GK> Topic: prov-dm (still - closing issues)
16:54:26 <satya> @jimMc, +1
16:55:09 <Luc> q?
16:55:20 <tlebo> +1 I'll review my issues
16:55:21 <GK> Luc: need people to raised issues to respond to confirm issues can be closed.  Would be better to close old issues and open new ones.
16:55:25 <satya> @Luc, sure will try to review and respond asap the outstanding issues
16:56:17 <GK> GK: happy to close issue 57, will raise new if I have problem with new text 
16:56:32 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Using_graphs_to_model_Accounts
16:56:40 <GK> Topic: Prov-o/Prov-dm
<luc>Summary: During the week, Tim produced a proposal to express accounts in RDF, making use of RDF abstract graphs.  Please discuss the proposal by email during the week, we will come back to this topic next week.
16:56:51 <GK> Discussion of accounts
16:58:11 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aajj
16:58:20 <GK> Tim: proposing that account assertions are "RDF abstract graph" - set of triples independent of location.  Tryimng to core construct of activity to associate asserter with account graph.  Then addressing association of abstract graph with where it rests.
16:59:24 <GK> ... triple store organization of named graphs is "chaotic" - can re-use service description vocabulary.
16:59:47 <GK> q+ 
16:59:56 <pgroth> q+
16:59:59 <Luc> ack GK
17:00:07 <dgarijo> q+
17:00:59 <Luc> ack pg
17:01:38 <GK> GK: my comments (on list) really reeferring to *assertion* of an account, rather than problem of account being an "abstract graph".
17:01:41 <pgroth> ack pgroth
17:02:08 <GK> PaulG: question about typing of graph (missed details of response) 
17:02:20 <tlebo> +1 to confusion over Activyt versus Entity - partiatlly b/c I'm not sure yet :-)
17:02:32 <GK> DanielG: account as activity or entity?  Gets confusing.
17:03:00 <GK> ... distinguishes between account as wrapper, and activity that creates that wrapper.
17:03:27 <Luc> q?
17:03:31 <Luc> ack dga
17:04:14 <GK> Tim: yes, there is some confusion, indecision yet.  Details still to be worked out (wasAtributedTo property mentioned?)
17:04:48 <GK> Tim: still want to quality association with some activity (e.g. similar to derivedfrom?)
17:04:57 <Luc> q?
17:05:48 <GK> Luc: have raised issue of mixing accounts and entities.
17:05:54 <dgarijo> @Tim: anyway, this is the kind of discussion we needed to make this work. Thanks!
17:06:53 <GK> q+
17:07:29 <GK> q+ to ask about what "abstract graph" is used to mean
17:07:44 <Luc> ack gk
17:07:44 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask about what "abstract graph" is used to mean
17:07:55 <Zakim> -??P29
17:08:01 <Luc> q?
17:08:45 <GK> Tim: terms we have are graph container, RDF abstract graph, and ...
17:09:21 <Luc> q?
17:09:34 <GK> SPARQL service description associates a graph with a name
17:09:53 <Luc> q?
17:10:17 <GK> (sorry, my audio got interrupted)
17:10:46 <pgroth> thanks tim!
17:10:56 <tlebo> thanks for feedback!
17:11:06 <dgarijo> :)
17:11:18 <GK> Luc: wrapping up
17:11:21 <Zakim> -tlebo
17:11:21 <GK> Ends.
17:11:22 <Zakim> -??P11
17:11:23 <Zakim> -dgarijo
17:11:27 <Zakim> -jcheney
17:11:29 <Zakim> -sandro
17:11:31 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
17:11:35 <Zakim> -Paolo
17:11:39 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:11:41 <Zakim> -Luc
17:11:43 <Zakim> -pgroth
17:11:45 <Zakim> -GK
17:11:47 <Zakim> - +1.518.633.aacc
17:12:43 <Zakim> -??P40
17:35:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, ??P56, in SW_(PROV)11:00AM
17:35:05 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended
17:35:07 <Zakim> Attendees were pgroth, Luc, Paolo, GK, +1.315.330.aabb, sandro, khalidbelhajjame, MacTed, jcheney, Yolanda, +1.518.633.aacc, tlebo, dgarijo, +1.760.705.aadd, +1.760.705.aaee,
17:35:10 <Zakim> ... +1.760.705.aaff, +1.760.705.aagg, +1.760.705.aahh, +1.760.705.aaii, +1.760.705.aajj