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14:34:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov 14:34:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/08-prov-irc 14:34:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:34:27 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov 14:34:29 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 14:34:29 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 14:34:30 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 14:34:30 <trackbot> Date: 08 September 2011 14:34:35 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 14:34:36 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 26 minutes 14:34:49 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.08 14:34:57 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau 14:35:02 <Luc> Scribe: Paolo Missier 14:35:16 <Luc> Topic: Admin <Luc>Summary: Minutes of last week's telecon were approved, and action on Simon is now closed. 14:41:54 <satya> satya has joined #prov 14:48:43 <paolo> paolo has joined #prov 14:53:51 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started 14:53:58 <Zakim> +??P3 14:54:05 <paolo> zakim, ??P3 is me 14:54:05 <Zakim> +paolo; got it 14:55:32 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov 14:55:55 <Zakim> + +1.443.987.aaaa 14:56:12 <Curt> zakim, +1.443.987.aaaa is me 14:56:12 <Zakim> +Curt; got it 14:56:17 <Yogesh> Yogesh has joined #prov 14:56:22 <Zakim> +Luc 14:57:40 <Zakim> + +1.540.449.aabb 14:58:01 <Yogesh> zakim, +1.540 is me 14:58:03 <Zakim> +Yogesh; got it 14:58:06 <Zakim> + +44.789.470.aacc 14:58:07 <Luc> @paolo, everything is set up for you, thanks for scribing 14:58:16 <paolo> ok 14:58:18 <stain> Zakim, +44.789.470.aacc is me 14:58:18 <Zakim> +stain; got it 14:58:25 <stain> (as I told you last week) 14:59:37 <Vinh> Vinh has joined #prov 15:00:11 <Zakim> + +1.315.723.aadd 15:00:19 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov 15:00:31 <Zakim> + +1.937.343.aaee 15:00:35 <tlebo> zakim, who is on the phone? 15:00:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see paolo, Curt, Luc, Yogesh, stain, +1.315.723.aadd, +1.937.343.aaee 15:00:45 <Vinh> zakim, +1.937.343.aaee is me 15:00:48 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov 15:00:51 <tlebo> zakim, I am aadd 15:00:54 <Zakim> +Vinh; got it 15:00:59 <stain> perhaps wait 1 more minute, I was thrown off the conference bridge twice 15:01:08 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it 15:01:19 <tlebo> zakim, +1.315.723.aadd is me 15:01:25 <stain> Zakim, who is noisy? 15:01:46 <Zakim> sorry, tlebo, I do not recognize a party named '+1.315.723.aadd' 15:01:48 <Zakim> +Kingsley_Idehen 15:01:56 <MacTed> Zakim, Kingsley_Idehen is OpenLink_Software 15:01:58 <Zakim> +??P5 15:02:00 <paolo> Stian, how about sip? works fine for me 15:02:04 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 15:02:05 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 15:02:08 <Zakim> stain, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: paolo (34%), Kingsley_Idehen (15%), Luc (43%) 15:02:22 <Edoardo> Edoardo has joined #prov 15:02:32 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it 15:02:33 <stain> paolo: I got in the third time nicely. :-) Using Skype. It threw me out after saying hello.. 15:02:37 <MacTed> MacTed has changed the topic to: Provenance WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/ -- 2011-09-08 telecon agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.08 (MacTed) 15:02:38 <Zakim> +??P34 15:02:39 <YolandaGil> YolandaGil has joined #prov 15:02:55 <Lena> Lena has joined #prov 15:02:56 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 15:03:02 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 15:03:09 <Zakim> +??P55 15:03:23 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-09-01 15:03:28 <Zakim> +[ISI] 15:03:28 <Luc> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of Sep 01 telecon #15:03:28 <paolo> topic: admin 15:03:32 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov 15:03:34 <Zakim> +Sandro 15:03:42 <stain> +1 15:03:43 <Curt> +1 15:03:45 <paolo> +1 15:03:47 <Edoardo> +1 15:03:48 <Lena> +1 15:03:53 <tlebo> +1 15:03:59 <smiles> +1 15:04:00 <Zakim> +??P0 15:04:11 <Luc> RESOLVED: the minutes of Sep 01 telecon 15:04:14 <jcheney> zakim, ??P0 is me 15:04:24 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov 15:04:30 <Luc> TOPIC: Named graphs requirements <Luc>Summary: Yolanda is going to add requirements identified by the PROV-Incubator to the list of requirements. Otherwise the list is complete. The teleconference with RDF-WG is confirmed for next week. 15:04:30 <dcorsar> dcorsar has joined #prov #15:04:38 <paolo> topic: Named graphs requirements 15:04:40 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceRDFNamedGraph 15:04:48 <Zakim> +??P9 15:04:56 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it 15:04:58 <Zakim> +??P10 15:05:29 <Luc> satya? 15:05:31 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aaff 15:05:38 <stain> Satya joined at 15:41 - but not on phone it seems 15:05:48 <Zakim> + +1.706.461.aagg 15:05:53 <YolandaGil> q+ 15:05:54 <paolo> no comments on requirements 15:05:59 <JimMcCusker> JimMcCusker has joined #prov 15:06:10 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here? 15:06:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see paolo, Curt, Luc, Yogesh, stain, tlebo, Vinh, MacTed (muted), ??P5, ??P34, ??P55, [ISI], Sandro, jcheney, ??P9, ??P10, +1.518.633.aaff, +1.706.461.aagg 15:06:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see JimMcCusker, dcorsar, zednik, jcheney, Lena, YolandaGil, Edoardo, smiles, tlebo, Vinh, Yogesh, Curt, paolo, satya, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, trackbot, stain, 15:06:16 <Zakim> ... sandro 15:06:23 <Luc> q? 15:06:25 <paolo> satya: reqs are completed, wiki page updated as of yesterday 15:06:28 <YolandaGil> There are requirements from the XG that were written at: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/images/3/3f/RDFNextStep_ProvXG-submitted.pdf 15:07:05 <Zakim> +??P50 15:07:19 <stain> paolo, are you scribing..? 15:07:38 <paolo> yolanda: mentions reqs from the XG work, and those do not seem to have been included in the current iwki page 15:08:11 <paolo> Luc: Yolanda invited to update the reqs page with content from the XG doc 15:08:14 <Luc> q? 15:08:17 <Luc> ack yola 15:08:25 <Luc> Topic: name for the standard <Luc> Summary: After a discussion on the four contenders, PIL, PAST, PIF and PROV, the participants massively voted in favor of PROV. Luc is to ask the WG about formal objection to PROV as the name for the standard. WG members have to raise formal objections by email. The intent is to confirm PROV as the name of the standard at the next teleconference. #15:08:31 <paolo> topic: Name for the standard 15:08:55 <paolo> Luc: shortlist of 3 identified last week 15:09:09 <paolo> Luc: are there negative blockers amongst those? 15:09:20 <Luc> q? 15:09:30 <jcheney> +q 15:09:37 <YolandaGil> I know PIF as http://ccs.mit.edu/pif/: The Process Interchange Format 15:09:47 <stain> that's a kind of blocker, yes 15:10:21 <tlebo> "This page was modified last by Jintae Lee on Nov. 17 '99 " 15:10:33 <stain> just realised: PAST is difficult to Google 15:10:35 <sandro> "PLEASE NOTE: The PIF Project has been merged with the PSL (Process Specification Language) Project at NIST." 15:11:05 <jorn> jorn has joined #prov 15:11:17 <paolo> tlebo: someone (Deb?) proposed avoiding names that are existing words, because it makes it harder to search for them 15:11:19 <MacTed> PIL sounds like a pill, which often has negative connotation. has 130MM results on Google. 15:11:19 <MacTed> PIF is a scoffing sound in American English, if not elsewhere. has 18MM results on Google. 15:11:19 <MacTed> PAST is a common word, which is itself problematic... 15:11:22 <tlebo> difficulty to search for the standard, e.g. "past" is already a word. 15:11:40 <Zakim> +??P63 15:11:48 <jorn> zakim, ??p63 is me 15:11:48 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 15:11:48 <JimMcCusker> PAS, then? 15:11:54 <stain> (but PASTm, PASTl etc. would be quite unique) 15:12:03 <stain> JimMcCusker: french word 15:12:12 <JimMcCusker> true. 15:12:27 <MacTed> http://www.acronymfinder.com/PIF.html 15:12:27 <MacTed> http://www.acronymfinder.com/PIL.html 15:12:27 <MacTed> http://www.acronymfinder.com/PAST.html 15:12:39 <stain> yes, w3 has very high google rating 15:12:42 <paolo> Tim: Deb concerned that existing words would make google searches less effective 15:12:47 <Luc> q? 15:12:50 <Luc> ack jch 15:13:15 <smiles> q+ 15:13:19 <paolo> satya: neg blocker for PIL: what we have is more than just a language 15:13:19 <stain> sandro, agree, and "prov\:" is a good prefix as well 15:13:23 <stain> prov\:Entity for instance 15:13:31 <MacTed> I also prefer PROV overall... 15:13:35 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me 15:13:35 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted 15:13:37 <JimMcCusker> What does PROV expand to? 15:13:47 <sandro> "provenance" 15:13:53 <stain> JimMcCusker, that's the problem! But we could say Provenance Standard 15:14:11 <paolo> Ted: all 3 of them have overlaps with existing names/acronyms. large number of results on google for all of them 15:14:16 <zednik> I also like PROV 15:14:26 <Luc> q? 15:14:28 <paolo> Ted: name needs not be an acronym 15:14:30 <tlebo> google; Prov (TM) Exam services 15:14:30 <zednik> PROVenance standard? 15:14:33 <stain> +1 that name does not need to be an acronym 15:14:41 <paolo> +1 for Ted -- no need to agonize over acronyms 15:14:42 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 15:14:42 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 15:14:43 <JimMcCusker> PROvenance Vocabulary (with apologies to Olaf) 15:15:08 <stain> take the red PIL 15:15:12 <Luc> q? 15:15:16 <MacTed> of course... PROV gets 93MM Google results 15:15:17 <paolo> smiles: "L" can stand for smt else than 'language" if we like the acronym 15:15:22 <smiles> ack smiles 15:15:23 <JimMcCusker> q+ 15:15:44 <paolo> +q 15:15:48 <JimMcCusker> q- 15:16:11 <Luc> ack pao 15:16:21 <Luc> q? 15:16:45 <stain> perhaps the problem is that we voted for both short and long name at the same time. 15:17:30 <stain> For instane WSDL is fairly recognizable on the internets - does not mean anything on its own, and pronounciation is something you learn at conferences 15:17:59 <sandro> q+ 15:18:16 <Luc> ack san 15:18:35 <tlebo> let's hire some marketers :-) 15:18:37 <paolo> JimMcCusker would have voted for PROV 15:19:02 <sandro> sandro: suggests doing +/- on each one. 15:19:20 <MacTed> ProvVoc - 21 results on Google. not an acronym. 15:19:21 <MacTed> :-) 15:19:30 <MacTed> pronounced "provoke" 15:19:40 <Luc> q? 15:19:53 <sandro> i'm sure we'll get to the top of google with PIF or PROV, but not PAST, maybe not PIL. 15:19:58 <paolo> Luc: how do we vote 15:20:11 <Luc> q? 15:20:17 <paolo> sandro: vote for/against until we get somewhere -- min the negatives 15:20:32 <Luc> Votes for PIL 15:20:36 <sandro> (and PIV has some real strong negatives.) 15:20:42 <JimMcCusker> -1 15:20:43 <tlebo> -1 15:20:45 <Lena> -1 15:20:46 <Edoardo> -1 15:20:46 <Curt> -1 15:20:47 <MacTed> -1 15:20:47 <dcorsar> -1 15:20:48 <Yogesh> -1 15:20:48 <stain> 0 15:20:49 <smiles> +1 15:20:49 <sandro> 0 15:20:53 <paolo> 0 15:20:53 <jorn> 0 15:20:56 <zednik> -1 15:21:01 <YolandaGil> 0 15:21:02 <paolo> satya: -1 15:21:15 <Luc> Votes for PAST 15:21:21 <paolo> +1 15:21:21 <sandro> -1 (google problems) 15:21:22 <tlebo> +1 15:21:22 <YolandaGil> -1 15:21:22 <smiles> 0 15:21:23 <Curt> +1 15:21:23 <Yogesh> -1 15:21:23 <stain> +1 15:21:25 <JimMcCusker> 0 15:21:26 <zednik> 0 15:21:27 <Edoardo> 0 15:21:28 <jcheney> -1 (word) 15:21:28 <Lena> +1 15:21:30 <dcorsar> 0 15:21:31 <MacTed> -1 15:21:33 <jorn> -1 15:21:48 <Luc> Votes for PIF 15:21:51 <JimMcCusker> -1 15:21:53 <Yogesh> +1 15:21:53 <YolandaGil> +1 15:21:54 <smiles> +1 15:21:54 <stain> 0 15:21:55 <tlebo> +1 15:21:56 <zednik> -1 15:21:58 <dcorsar> +1 15:21:59 <paolo> satya: +1 15:22:00 <Curt> 0 15:22:01 <Lena> +1 15:22:01 <sandro> 0 15:22:01 <Edoardo> +1 15:22:02 <jorn> 0 15:22:06 <MacTed> 0 15:22:07 <paolo> 0 15:22:09 <jcheney> 0 15:22:22 <Luc> Votes for PROV 15:22:25 <JimMcCusker> +1 15:22:26 <sandro> +1 15:22:26 <jorn> +1 15:22:27 <stain> +1 15:22:27 <Vinh> +1 15:22:27 <zednik> +1 15:22:27 <Curt> +1 15:22:28 <smiles> -1 15:22:31 <Lena> +1 15:22:32 <Yogesh> 0 15:22:33 <jcheney> 0 15:22:35 <MacTed> +1 15:22:36 <dcorsar> +1 15:22:36 <Zakim> + +1.509.554.aahh 15:22:36 <YolandaGil> +1 15:22:38 <paolo> +1 15:22:39 <tlebo> +1 15:22:51 <stain> wow 15:23:11 <paolo> Luc: strong support for PROV 15:23:15 <Luc> PROVIDENCE 15:23:33 <paolo> Luc: concern: mixup with providence... 15:23:37 <Luc> q? 15:23:39 <jorn> maybe we should call it PROV IL? 15:23:50 <stain> I don't get the providence mixup 15:23:51 <YolandaGil> I don't understand what is the problem with providence 15:24:03 <stain> would that not be the problem with any of the P* names? 15:24:18 <JimMcCusker> Yeah, I use that as a joke when I give provenance talks... 15:24:29 <YolandaGil> I don't see a problem, Luc! 15:24:49 <MacTed> jorn - IL stands for? 15:25:03 <jorn> Interchange Language :) 15:25:04 <paolo> Luc: vote on PROV alone to see if there any negs 15:25:34 <stain> what kind of trademark does http://www.provexam.com/ have for 'prov' ? 15:25:36 <paolo> Luc: how would this name be used in documents? 15:25:43 <paolo> +q 15:25:49 <JimMcCusker> foobar a prov\:Entity 15:26:10 <jorn> PROV IDM 15:26:14 <tlebo> Provenance Description and Interchange Framework? 15:26:20 <stain> +1 paolo 15:26:33 <sandro> "The Prov Data Model" 15:26:38 <sandro> "The Prov Data Model for Provenance Interchange" 15:26:43 <Luc> q? 15:26:44 <paolo> q- 15:27:00 <Zakim> -jorn 15:27:16 <paolo> Luc: Simon still has a formal objection? 15:27:18 <Zakim> +??P19 15:27:37 <Zakim> + +1.915.747.aaii 15:27:43 <jorn> Zakim: ??p19 is me 15:27:45 <Paulo> Paulo has joined #prov 15:27:48 <stain> "Provenance Rules On VVeb" 15:27:51 <paolo> smiles: mostly on aesthetic grounds... 15:27:57 <jorn> Zakim, ??p19 is me 15:27:57 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 15:28:06 <paolo> smiles: wouldn't formally object though 15:28:29 <jorn> +1 15:28:32 <JimMcCusker> +1 15:28:34 <stain> +1 15:28:34 <MacTed> +1 15:28:35 <smiles> +1 15:28:36 <paolo> action to emails the WG announcing that PROV is the proposed name 15:28:36 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to 15:28:41 <zednik> +1 15:29:05 <Luc> TOPIC: Primer Document <Luc> Summary: Simon presented his proposal for a primer. It was indicated that an example of provenance of something not web-specific would be desirable (though not necessarily in the first version of the primer). Work on the primer will start immediately. It was acknowledged that this document should be released when ready, even if it is released after other FPWDs. 15:29:15 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Sep/0042.html 15:29:23 <stain> http://media.zibb.com/trademark/prov/30725511 should not be in conflict - "Education and entertainment" 15:29:29 <stain> (how exams are entertainment is beyond me) 15:29:53 <paolo> smiles: primer should be released alongside the model doc 15:30:04 <paolo> smiles: would generate better feedback to us 15:30:31 <paolo> smiles: as the model is still evolving, the primer would not be complete at the time of release 15:30:54 <Zakim> +??P13 15:31:10 <Luc> q? 15:31:17 <paolo> smiles: would be good to have a "webby" example, doc-based like the jou example, to align well with the W3C setting where the doc belongs 15:31:22 <MacTed> q+ 15:31:27 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me 15:31:27 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted 15:32:02 <paolo> ted: a "webby" example is good, but important also to have a completely non-webby example. Science domains, or others 15:32:16 <Luc> q? 15:32:28 <Luc> ack mac 15:32:33 <stain> smiles' proposal sounds reasonable, agree to not restrict to data journalism example 15:32:39 <paolo> smiles: ok, but the initial release needs to appeal to people who will provide early feedback 15:32:39 <zednik> q+ 15:33:05 <paolo> ted: agree, but that puts people in the web mindset and that may form a bias 15:33:31 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 15:33:32 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 15:33:39 <Zakim> + +1.216.368.aajj 15:33:42 <Zakim> - +1.706.461.aagg 15:33:52 <zednik> q- 15:33:53 <Luc> q? 15:34:03 <ericstephan> ericstephan has joined #prov 15:34:04 <paolo> zednik: agree with Ted: danger to be perceived as provenance /of/ the web rather than /on/ the web 15:34:13 <stain> +1 ted - some simple science (high school chemistry experiment?) example should be good 15:34:20 <satya> zakim, +1.216.368.aajj is me 15:34:20 <Zakim> +satya; got it 15:34:52 <zednik> how about a simple scenario of the provenance of a physical object? example from library community? 15:34:53 <paolo> Luc: primer not starte yet. too ambitious to release by the end of month? some authors are busy on all other docs at the same time 15:35:40 <satya> q+ 15:35:40 <paolo> smiles: yes, timing is tight. delayed release is a plausible option 15:35:41 <Zakim> + +1.832.386.aakk 15:36:04 <paolo> Luc @Sandro: can docs be released without primer? 15:36:34 <paolo> sandro: early drafts of model docs without primer is fine if for limited time 15:36:42 <paolo> q+ 15:36:43 <stain> what if we do some third party blog posts or something? 15:36:50 <Luc> q? 15:36:57 <ericP> ericP has joined #prov 15:37:01 <Luc> ack sat 15:37:08 <Zakim> - +1.509.554.aahh 15:38:19 <stain> paolo: that people who would be writing the primer can instead focus on filling in a complete example and challenge our model 15:38:33 <paolo> Luc: would be nice to see the ASN in use in the example 15:39:17 <paolo> smiles: primer needs to be understandeable -- ASN may possibly make it harder? 15:39:32 <Zakim> + +1.509.554.aall 15:39:58 <paolo> smiles: there prior comments on going bottom up with small examples rather than a large big one example from the start 15:40:30 <paolo> q+ 15:40:41 <Luc> ack pao 15:41:57 <stain> I like the flow of how instance how http://www.openannotation.org/spec/beta/ starts very simple 15:41:59 <Lena> +1 15:42:01 <YolandaGil> I am interested Luc 15:42:05 <stain> I would not mind joining 15:42:09 <satya> after the release of the model document? 15:42:15 <paolo> Luc: who would contribute to the primer? 15:42:20 <tlebo> +1 15:42:24 <satya> +1 15:42:25 <paolo> Paolo after model / ontology doc 15:42:25 <MacTed> +1 with limited available time 15:42:25 <zednik> I am willing to contribute (+1) 15:42:38 <stain> should not have more than say 3 authors 15:42:44 <ericstephan> +1 after the connection informal report 15:42:45 <Zakim> -jorn 15:42:57 <Zakim> +??P19 15:43:03 <jorn> zakim, ??p19 is me 15:43:03 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 15:43:03 <paolo> @stian: few editors, but no hard limit on authors...? 15:43:13 <stain> agree 15:43:26 <paolo> smiles: will put a structure up on the wiki then contact interested people 15:43:40 <tlebo> The diagrams at http://www.openannotation.org/spec/beta/ are very nice 15:43:52 <Luc> topic: First Public Working Drafts <luc> Summary: it is intended to have versions of the conceptual model document and formal model document, ready for internal review around 2011-09-17. Proposed FPWDs are intended to be circulated for the 2011-09-29 teleconference. The WG will then have to approve their release as FPWDs. The editors of the PAQ document were not present. Is this document also going for the same timetable? 15:44:23 <paolo> Luc @sandro: formal reqs prior to releasing docs as drafts:? 15:45:02 <paolo> sandro: there's a page for that, but: need to get a persistent URL from W3C 15:45:04 <satya> @Tim: agree, can we try to use similar diagram format for the formal model draft? 15:45:38 <paolo> sandro: doc needs to be validated for format / HTML -- respec should make that easy 15:45:44 <paolo> luc: any editorial control? 15:45:45 <stain> I raised the question on namespace as well for the ontology - do we know what would make sense for now? 15:46:35 <paolo> sandro: status of specs: a very briefly explanation of what the draft is about 15:46:58 <tlebo> @satya: very much so. I'll use it to base the diagrams I am doing for model documetn 15:47:07 <paolo> Sandro: need a group resolution to publish, and need to point to it when requesting release 15:48:13 <sandro> Here's the check list for publication: http://www.w3.org/Guide/transitions 15:49:31 <Lena> +q 15:50:03 <paolo> Paolo: release timetable as agreed: Sept 16th then Sept 29 for approval 15:50:24 <paolo> satya: requesting sept 19th, then feedback cycle, then Sept 29th for approval 15:50:35 <paolo> q+ 15:50:41 <Luc> ack len 15:51:09 <paolo> Lena: should we include security elements (authz) in the model/ontology? 15:51:28 <paolo> Lena: scope of model should be clear, i.e., authz out of scope 15:51:34 <smiles> q+ 15:51:47 <tlebo> lena: conneg and authorization; survey results show people confuse provenance and authorization 15:51:54 <Luc> ack pao 15:53:40 <Luc> ack sm 15:54:43 <paolo> smiles @lena: the authz issue is on whether we trust what happened in the past, may not be out of scope after all 15:54:54 <satya> q+ 15:55:17 <paolo> luc: first working draft offers a first look at our work, so this can be raised as a missing element that should be added 15:55:31 <Luc> ack satya 15:55:36 <paolo> satya: important not to go into the derivation part of provenance in this group 15:55:55 <Luc> Topic: Formal Model document <luc> Summary: Satya updated the group about progress on the ontology. Stian used the ontology to generate provenance from Taverna. He has raised an number of issues to be discussed by the authors. The notion of entity was briefly discussed. Discussions are to continue during the week. 15:56:49 <paolo> satya: updates will be made this week, only a few people attended previous meeting. 15:56:56 <tlebo> q+ 15:57:06 <paolo> satya: entailments and extension mechanisms will be addressed next 15:57:27 <tlebo> (should Stian work from the main branch in mercuruial?) 15:57:34 <paolo> satya: soliciting feedback at this stage, as Stian provided. 15:57:37 <Luc> ack tl 15:57:52 <paolo> satya: need to get the RDF encoding for the file crime scenario right as it is normative 15:58:25 <Zakim> -jorn 15:58:30 <stain> I just asked was if I should edit directly on the head branch or a sepearate feature branch 15:58:31 <satya> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology 15:59:06 <paolo> q+ 15:59:24 <Luc> ack paol 15:59:38 <satya> Monday US 12pm ET 16:00:05 <tlebo> @stain, I think that is a weak "yes", join the head branch. 16:00:24 <paolo> satya: that was the time for the regular ontology call (skype) 16:00:59 <Zakim> +??P45 16:01:10 <paolo> satya: no complete agreement on how to express entities. 16:01:45 <Zakim> -??P10 16:01:50 <paolo> what is the id criteria to distinguish entities? (ref to the cars example) 16:03:17 <paolo> satya: what are the distinguishing attributes for different entities that refer to the same characterized thing 16:03:45 <Zakim> -[ISI] 16:04:19 <paolo> luc: there may be different perspectives about the "same car". each of them is asserted as an entity 16:04:38 <MacTed> +1 16:05:30 <paolo> paolo @satya: long ago the URI used to be called a "surrogate key"... 16:05:39 <Zakim> - +1.915.747.aaii 16:05:57 <Zakim> - +1.832.386.aakk 16:06:10 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me 16:06:10 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted 16:06:12 <MacTed> q+ 16:07:01 <Zakim> -Yogesh 16:07:10 <JimMcCusker> q+ 16:07:25 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aamm 16:09:13 <Luc> ack mac 16:09:23 <Luc> ack jim 16:09:56 <stain> satya, I'll push my changes to the OWL file if that's OK. I've fixed the verbs and labels. 16:10:06 <stain> not touched the HTML but can do a search replace 16:10:10 <Zakim> -??P45 16:10:12 <satya> @Stian, thanks! 16:10:40 <Luc> q? 16:11:15 <stain> satya: do you agree on making hadParticipant super-property of used and wasControlledBy ? 16:11:32 <paolo> luc @smiles: would the car example be suitable for the primar? 16:12:02 <paolo> smiles: potentially yes, to explain what we mean by entity etc, identifying attributes, etc. 16:12:06 <Luc> q? 16:12:06 <stain> satya: that does not cover the case of compliments - some OWL expert can figure that out 16:12:09 <satya> @Stian: I had asserted that earlier, but some members want further discussion about it - so they are not related 16:12:21 <Zakim> -satya 16:12:22 <Zakim> -??P50 16:12:22 <Zakim> -paolo 16:12:24 <Zakim> - +1.509.554.aall 16:12:24 <Zakim> -Sandro 16:12:25 <Zakim> -??P9 16:12:25 <Zakim> -tlebo 16:12:26 <Zakim> -MacTed 16:12:30 <Zakim> -Curt 16:12:32 <Zakim> -Vinh 16:12:34 <Luc> paolo, i will do the necessary incantation here 16:12:39 <paolo> ok thanks 16:12:41 <stain> @Satya - ok, will leave that out 16:12:41 <Zakim> -Luc 16:12:42 <stain> bye 16:12:44 <Luc> thanks for scribing 16:12:46 <Zakim> - +1.518.633.aamm 16:12:47 <Zakim> -jcheney 16:12:58 <ericstephan> bye 16:12:58 <Zakim> -stain 16:13:02 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public 16:13:11 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes 16:13:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/08-prov-minutes.html Luc 16:13:12 <ericstephan> ericstephan has left #prov 16:13:19 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon 16:13:19 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees 16:13:19 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been paolo, Curt, Luc, +1.540.449.aabb, Yogesh, stain, +1.315.723.aadd, Vinh, tlebo, MacTed, [ISI], Sandro, jcheney, +1.518.633.aaff, 16:13:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:13:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/08-prov-minutes.html trackbot 16:13:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye 16:13:21 <RRSAgent> I see no action items 16:13:22 <Zakim> ... +1.706.461.aagg, jorn, +1.509.554.aahh, +1.915.747.aaii, satya, +1.832.386.aakk, +1.509.554.aall, +1.518.633.aamm # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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