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Chatlog 2011-08-18
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14:31:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov 14:31:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-prov-irc 14:31:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:31:40 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov 14:31:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 14:31:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 14:31:43 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 14:31:43 <trackbot> Date: 18 August 2011 14:31:51 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 14:31:51 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 29 minutes 14:35:28 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.18 14:35:44 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau 14:35:53 <Luc> Scribe: satya 14:36:06 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 14:46:18 <Luc> Regrets: Khalid, Stephan Zednik 14:53:01 <satya> satya has joined #prov 14:54:57 <jorn> jorn has joined #prov 14:55:59 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov 14:56:21 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started 14:56:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 14:56:25 <Zakim> +Curt 14:56:51 <Zakim> -[IPcaller] 14:57:20 <Zakim> +??P1 14:57:36 <Zakim> +satya 14:57:37 <Luc> zakim, +??P1 is me 14:57:38 <Zakim> sorry, Luc, I do not recognize a party named '+??P1' 14:57:44 <Luc> zakim, ??P1 is me 14:57:44 <Zakim> +Luc; got it 14:57:51 <Luc> zakim, who is here? 14:57:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt, Luc, satya 14:57:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see Curt, jorn, satya, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, edsu, stain, trackbot 14:58:11 <Zakim> +??P22 14:58:24 <jorn> zakim, ??p22 is me 14:58:24 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 14:58:32 <Luc> topic: Admin <luc>Summary: Last week's minutes were approved. 14:59:18 <Yogesh> Yogesh has joined #prov 14:59:32 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov 15:00:08 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aaaa 15:00:10 <dcorsar> dcorsar has joined #prov 15:00:18 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov 15:00:27 <Zakim> +??P33 15:00:41 <smiles> zakim, ??P33 is me 15:00:41 <Zakim> +??P35 15:00:44 <Lena> Lena has joined #prov 15:00:50 <Zakim> + +1.540.449.aabb 15:00:56 <Zakim> +smiles; got it 15:01:13 <Zakim> +??P41 15:01:20 <Yogesh> zakim, +1.540.449 is me 15:01:27 <Zakim> +Yogesh; got it 15:01:29 <Zakim> +??P45 15:01:31 <StephenCresswell> StephenCresswell has joined #prov 15:01:38 <Luc> zakim, who is here? 15:01:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt, Luc, satya, jorn, +1.315.330.aaaa, smiles, ??P35, Yogesh, ??P41, ??P45 15:01:44 <Lena> zakim, ??P45 is me 15:01:49 <Zakim> +Yolanda 15:01:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see StephenCresswell, Lena, tlebo, dcorsar, smiles, Yogesh, Curt, jorn, satya, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, edsu, stain, trackbot 15:02:03 <Zakim> +Lena; got it 15:02:03 <Lena> zakim, +??P45 is me 15:02:04 <tlebo> Zakim, 315 is me 15:02:18 <Luc> @stain, are you ready to scribe? everything set up for you 15:02:20 <Zakim> sorry, Lena, I do not recognize a party named '+??P45' 15:02:23 <Zakim> sorry, tlebo, I do not recognize a party named '315' 15:02:26 <tlebo> Zakim, aaaa is me 15:02:52 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it 15:03:24 <kai> kai has joined #prov 15:03:45 <Zakim> + +1.858.210.aacc 15:04:06 <Luc> zakim, who is here? 15:04:37 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here? 15:04:41 <Zakim> +??P7 15:04:45 <kai> zakim, ??P7 is me. 15:04:46 <satya> scribe Satya 15:05:07 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software 15:05:11 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov 15:05:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt, Luc, satya, jorn, tlebo, smiles, ??P35, Yogesh, ??P41, Lena, Yolanda, +1.858.210.aacc, ??P7, OpenLink_Software 15:05:25 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 15:05:25 <MacTed> zakim, mute me 15:05:45 <satya> Luc: Covering the agenda items: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.18 15:05:49 <Luc> PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of Aug 11 telecon 15:05:59 <smiles> +1 15:06:00 <satya> +1 15:06:02 <Curt> +1 15:06:02 <kai> +1 15:06:06 <dgarijo> +1 15:06:07 <Yogesh> +1 15:06:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Curt, Luc, satya, jorn, tlebo, smiles, ??P35, Yogesh, ??P41, Lena, Yolanda, +1.858.210.aacc, ??P7, OpenLink_Software 15:06:10 <dcorsar> +1 15:06:16 <Helena> Helena has joined #prov 15:06:25 <Zakim> +kai; got it 15:06:31 <Zakim> +??P2 15:06:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see dgarijo, kai, StephenCresswell, Lena, tlebo, dcorsar, smiles, Yogesh, Curt, jorn, satya, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, edsu, stain, trackbot 15:06:44 <Luc> ACCEPTED: the minutes of Aug 11 telecon 15:06:48 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 15:06:50 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 15:06:58 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P2 is me 15:07:01 <satya> Luc: A number of action items are open 15:07:20 <Zakim> -??P2 15:07:23 <satya> Luc: Action 15 to Stephan 15:07:50 <Zakim> +??P4 15:08:06 <satya> Lena: Stephan has completed the action item 15:08:18 <Helena> 2nd iteration to questionnaire: http://bit.ly/o7nR4n. 15:08:24 <Zakim> I already had ??P2 as ??P2, dgarijo 15:08:39 <satya> Luc: Action 34 to James open 15:09:25 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P4 is me 15:09:28 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it 15:09:33 <satya> Luc: Action to Paul and Graham to clarify difference between resource and entity 15:09:34 <Luc> TOPIC: Provenance Implementation and Test Cases <Luc> Summary: Lena updated the group on the second questionnaire. The working group is invited to comment on the second questionnaire before the next Aug 25 telcon. 15:09:35 <Ilkayaltintas> Ilkayaltintas has joined #prov 15:10:04 <satya> Luc: Update on Implementation task force 15:11:13 <satya> Lena: Updated the questionaire to clarify the following points: (a) define meaning of provenance, (b) privacy issue associated with response, (c) granularity of provenance 15:11:18 <Luc> q? 15:12:24 <satya> Lena: Next step is to send the new questionaire to respondents of the first questionaire 15:12:44 <satya> @Luc: James sent an email indicating he has completed his action item 15:13:24 <Zakim> -jorn 15:13:31 <satya> Lena: The working group is invited to respond to the second questionaire before the next Aug 25 telcon 15:13:39 <Zakim> +??P21 15:13:39 <Luc> q? 15:13:46 <jorn> zakim, ??p21 is me 15:13:46 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 15:14:10 <satya> Luc: Can the issue raised by Deborah be accomodated? 15:14:16 <satya> Lena: It can be accomodated 15:14:07 <Luc> Topic: Connection Task Force <Luc>Summary: Kai reported on progress, following Monday's teleconference on connection. The aim is still to produce an report by Aug 25; a structure has been outlined. 15:14:29 <satya> Luc: Update from the Connection task force 15:14:40 <kai> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report 15:15:19 <satya> Kai: Summarizing information about groups who may be interested in working with the Provenance WG 15:16:02 <satya> Kai: A telcon was held on Monday by connection task force 15:16:16 <Luc> q? 15:16:18 <smiles> q+ 15:16:34 <satya> Kai: Working to create a formal report 15:16:40 <satya> Luc: What are the next steps 15:17:18 <Zakim> + +1.518.763.aadd 15:17:37 <satya> Kai: Weekly telcon will be scheduled for discussion and work towards to create a formal document 15:18:01 <Luc> q? 15:18:08 <Luc> ack smiles 15:18:09 <satya> Kai: A draft report will be available by August 25 for comments 15:18:17 <GK> GK has joined #prov 15:18:35 <StephenCresswell> +q 15:18:57 <satya> Smiles: Discussed with ? group and reviewed the 5 points identified by the connection task force 15:19:34 <Luc> q? 15:19:36 <smiles> W3C semantic news community group 15:19:47 <satya> Smiles: In regular contact with W3C semantic news community group 15:20:18 <smiles> @satya actually irregular :-) 15:20:39 <Zakim> +??P29 15:20:49 <kai> q+ 15:20:58 <Luc> ack step 15:21:30 <GK> zakim, ??p29 is me 15:21:30 <Zakim> +GK; got it 15:21:37 <kai> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connections_Template_Catalog 15:22:12 <StephenCresswell> I made contact with the Government Linked data WG - they have identified prov WG as a connection in their charter 15:22:29 <Luc> ack kai 15:22:41 <Luc> q? 15:23:20 <satya> Stephen: Contacted with Government Linked Data WG and working with them to identify areas of possible collaboration 15:23:20 <Luc> topic: Provenance Access Document <Luc>Summary: Yogesh presented his work on applying the PAQ approach to the Access Scenario developed at the face to face meeting. This work resulted in a series of comments, for consideration by the PAQ document editors. 15:24:34 <satya> Graham: Working to incorporate suggestions from Yogesh in the PAQ document 15:24:58 <Yogesh> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceAccessScenarioUsingPAQ 15:25:36 <satya> Yogesh: Working to ensure that the PAQ document covers the scenarios discussed during the F2F 15:26:20 <satya> Yogesh: Discussing first scenario "Online HTML Documents D1 and D2 (Resource provider aware of provenance)" 15:27:17 <Luc> q? 15:27:49 <GK> @yogesh: this looks useful, material here useful for some in-document example sequences, I think :) 15:28:00 <satya> Yogesh: The HTTP header captures both the provenance of the document and the context information 15:28:48 <Luc> q? 15:29:06 <Zakim> -jorn 15:29:19 <Zakim> +??P21 15:29:31 <jorn> zakim, ??p21 is me 15:29:31 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 15:29:40 <Zakim> +??P32 15:29:40 <satya> Yogesh: Two variations, one uses the anchor attribute and the second uses rel = "anchor" 15:29:46 <Zakim> + +1.650.386.aaee 15:29:53 <Edoardo> Edoardo has joined #prov 15:29:59 <ralph_> ralph_ has joined #prov 15:30:06 <Luc> q? 15:30:33 <satya> Yogesh: Describes how the "oh yeah" feature can be implemented in the first scenario 15:30:53 <satya> Yogesh: Moving to the second scenario: "Online Image Document D3 (Resource provider aware of provenance)" 15:31:36 <Zakim> -Yolanda 15:32:08 <satya> Yogesh: There is no difference between this scenario (with image) and the first scenario (with document) 15:32:28 <satya> Yogesh: Describing the third scenario: "HTML Document D5 as Email attachment " 15:32:59 <Zakim> +Yolanda 15:33:39 <satya> Yogesh: Use of "link" element to provide the provenance and anchor information 15:33:40 <Luc> q? 15:34:17 <satya> Yogesh: Discussing the fourth scenario: " HTML Document D7 in the File System (Using provenance service)" 15:35:05 <satya> Yogesh: Again using the link element, but the provenance is from a "provenance-service" 15:35:20 <Ilkayaltintas> Ilkayaltintas has joined #prov 15:35:51 <GK> My battery about to fail. Yogesh, this looks good to me. Sorry I probably won't hear you out. 15:36:14 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aaff 15:36:16 <Zakim> - +1.518.763.aadd 15:36:32 <satya> Yogesh: The provenance service returns a JSON file with template information (three templates) 15:36:57 <satya> q+ 15:37:19 <jorn> (fixed the GET target) 15:37:32 <GK> In practice, I'd expect just one of location or provenance templates to be present, though both as here would be legal. 15:37:47 <satya> Yogesh: Three templates (a) provenance_service_uri, (b) location_template, and (c) provenance_template 15:38:01 <Luc> q? 15:38:09 <GK> Provenance service URI is not a template, just the other two. 15:38:49 <GK> Templates are used here to conform to REST principles of hypertext as engine of app state 15:38:52 <satya> Yogesh: Discussing the fifth scenario: "Online Image Document D4 (Using provenance service)" 15:39:13 <Zakim> +??P26 15:39:31 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov 15:40:25 <smiles> q+ 15:40:33 <Luc> q? 15:41:05 <Luc> ack sat 15:41:11 <DeborahM> DeborahM has joined #prov 15:41:49 <GK> There's a ref to the template spec in the actual document. 15:42:02 <GK> It's currently IETF WIP. 15:42:09 <Edoardo> Edoardo has joined #prov 15:42:39 <DeborahM> I was only on a cell phone before when the report happened on the connection to the open govt data working group and my irc does not show the previous notes. Is there a place to see what was typed before on that status? and is there an initial use case that is most appropriate to us? 15:43:11 <jorn> DeborahM: could priv-msg it to you 15:43:20 <Luc> q? 15:43:24 <Luc> ack smi 15:43:44 <GK> @smiles - these are currently alternatives - we might chose, or allow both 15:44:01 <satya> Smiles: Are both the alternatives available to the users 15:44:24 <satya> Yogesh: This is an outstanding issue to be discussed 15:44:25 <Luc> q? 15:44:45 <Zakim> -jorn 15:44:55 <Zakim> +??P21 15:45:02 <satya> Yogesh: We either re-use anchor attribute or introduce an "anchor" relation 15:45:06 <Luc> q? 15:45:51 <Luc> q? 15:45:52 <jorn> q+ what's the preferred way to deliver both: the document and its provenance attached to an email? 15:45:59 <satya> Luc: has Yogesh made suggestions/comments regarding the PAQ document? 15:46:11 <Luc> ack jorn 15:46:12 <satya> Yogesh: Yes, Graham is working to address them 15:46:29 <Luc> q? 15:47:51 <Luc> q? 15:48:31 <Luc> q? 15:48:36 <jorn> what's the preferred way to deliver both: the document and its provenance attached to an email? 15:48:45 <Luc> Topic: Provenance Ontology <Luc>Summary: Satya reported on progress on the ontology. The issue of uniformity of names was raised (choice of past or present tense, inclusion or not of a verb). Action on Luc to Poll the group about the conventions to follow. 15:48:52 <satya> Jorn: what's the preferred way to deliver both: the document and its provenance attached to an email? <luc>Scribe:dgarijo 15:49:20 <dgarijo> satya: We had a telecon on Monday 15:49:37 <dgarijo> satya: tried to import an scenario to RDF as an example 15:49:59 <dgarijo> ... other issues: with used, particpation and generation 15:50:22 <dgarijo> ... also putting uses in the past tense rather than in present tense 15:50:34 <Luc> q? 15:50:42 <dgarijo> ... transform isUsedBy into used 15:50:44 <ralph_> q+ 15:51:33 <Luc> q? 15:51:40 <dgarijo> ... if both used and generatedBy are subproperties of participation there are problems with the domains and ranges. Could we make inverse properties? 15:51:46 <dgarijo> +q 15:52:00 <ralph_> The silent 'has' rule is a useful one 15:52:38 <ralph_> drop 'is' from all predicates that have a suffix, such as 'of' - no need for 'is' 15:52:45 <dgarijo> satya: James has been working on the formal semantics 15:52:56 <satya> Discussion wiki for provenance formal model: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology 15:53:03 <jcheney> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#PIL:0001 15:53:03 <ralph_> consider 'usage' instead of 'uses' 15:53:30 <dgarijo> @ralph_: we took the names from the formal model :) 15:54:40 <jcheney> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html#PIL:0001 15:54:42 <DeborahM> One overriding discussion on the uses or used includes that we want consistency of tense in the entire model. It may be that all of the roles/properties use past tense while the classes (if tense is included) may use present tense. There is a start at the evaluation of how all of the roles look if we use past tense. 15:54:50 <Luc> q? 15:55:00 <DeborahM> + 15:55:02 <ralph_> By 'silent has' I mean that a predicate that does not have any suffix that forms a phrase should be raed as having a 'has'. This removes the need to have predicates that embody tense: 'hasRole', 'wasRole' and 'willHaveRole' 15:55:17 <ralph_> raed -> read 15:55:18 <DeborahM> -1 for usage 15:55:30 <dgarijo> -1 for usage 15:55:43 <ralph_> no tense 15:56:39 <ralph_> Consider use of SKOS for labels <luc>Scribe: satya 15:56:58 <dgarijo> why not rdf:label? 15:57:26 <DeborahM> one rationale for the best practices documents being a wiki page or html document but we expect this to evolve and we did not want it as part of the static document 15:57:26 <ralph_> because SKOS has more precise semantics - prefLabel, altLabel 15:57:46 <Luc> q? 15:57:51 <DeborahM> + 15:57:55 <DeborahM> +q 15:57:56 <Luc> ack ral 15:58:46 <Luc> action: Luc to poll the WG about use of tense (present or past) for properties 15:58:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-36 - Poll the WG about use of tense (present or past) for properties [on Luc Moreau - due 2011-08-25]. 15:59:10 <satya> @Daniel: thanks for help with scribing :) 15:59:22 <dgarijo> @satya: np 15:59:41 <Luc> q? 15:59:45 <Luc> ack dga 16:00:37 <Zakim> -??P21 16:00:56 <satya> DanielG: Question about the "participation" - the current document does not describe "generation" as specialization of "participation" 16:01:07 <Luc> q? 16:01:12 <Zakim> +??P12 16:01:15 <jorn> zakim, ??p12 is me 16:01:22 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 16:02:13 <Luc> ack deb 16:02:24 <dgarijo> the problem with grouping both relationships under participation is that you make process execution the domain of every relationship 16:02:27 <satya> Luc: No consensus on "generation" as specialization of "participation" 16:03:30 <satya> Deborah: Most of the ontologies use "present tense" 16:03:35 <DeborahM> Considering action 36, I suggest that we will be most informed if we look at concrete options. The poll could have two levels – abstract level – present or past – and then concrete level – get as concrete a listing as we can get and make a present vs past tense list and let people review the concrete list. 16:04:02 <Luc> q? 16:06:16 <Luc> q? 16:07:41 <ralph_> I mentioned CIDOC-CRM - ontologies for Musuems, ARt Collections and Cultural Heritage - this has some notions of provenance - see http://www.cidoc-crm.org/ 16:07:52 <MacTed> seems that one need is for a superProperty "input" of which the more specific inputs are subProperties... 16:07:59 <ralph_> The standard is at http://www.cidoc-crm.org/docs/cidoc_crm_version_5.0.2.pdf 16:08:01 <Luc> Topic: Provenance Model Document <luc>Summary: Paul wrote a section on shortcuts and extensions. The group is invited to comment on this section in the usual way. 16:08:11 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#shortcuts-and-extensions 16:08:34 <Luc> q? 16:08:47 <satya> q+ 16:09:20 <Zakim> -Yolanda 16:09:37 <satya> ack satya 16:10:30 <Luc> q? 16:10:33 <ralph_> q+ 16:10:39 <Zakim> -tlebo 16:10:42 <Zakim> - +1.518.276.aaff 16:10:43 <Zakim> -smiles 16:10:48 <Zakim> -??P35 16:10:48 <Zakim> - +1.858.210.aacc 16:10:50 <Yogesh> Yogesh has left #prov 16:10:54 <Zakim> -MacTed 16:10:57 <Zakim> -satya 16:10:57 <Zakim> -dgarijo 16:10:59 <Zakim> -??P26 16:11:00 <Zakim> - +1.650.386.aaee 16:11:01 <Zakim> -kai 16:11:08 <Zakim> -Luc 16:11:09 <Zakim> -Yogesh 16:11:12 <Zakim> -jorn 16:11:19 <Zakim> -??P32 16:11:20 <Zakim> -??P41 16:11:22 <Zakim> -Curt 16:11:26 <Zakim> -Lena 16:17:32 <ralph_> quit 16:35:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, GK, in SW_(PROV)11:00AM 16:35:04 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended 16:35:06 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], Curt, satya, Luc, jorn, +1.315.330.aaaa, +1.540.449.aabb, smiles, Yogesh, Yolanda, Lena, tlebo, +1.858.210.aacc, kai, MacTed, dgarijo, +1.518.763.aadd, 16:35:09 <Zakim> ... GK, +1.650.386.aaee, +1.518.276.aaff 16:51:12 <GK> GK has joined #prov 16:53:12 <GK> GK has left #prov # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000316