Chatlog 2011-06-30

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14:42:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:42:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-prov-irc
14:42:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:42:54 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
14:42:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
14:42:56 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:42:57 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:42:57 <trackbot> Date: 30 June 2011
14:43:02 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 
14:43:02 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
14:43:15 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.06.30
14:43:24 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:43:29 <Luc> Scribe: Paolo Missier
14:43:53 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 
14:43:55 <Luc> Regrets: Daniel Garijo, Simon Miles, Yogesh Simmhan, James Cheney, Simon Dobson, Graham Klyne, Deborah McGuinness, Paulo Pinheiro da Silva, Timothy Lebo
14:44:15 <Luc> TOPIC: Admin
<luc> Summary:The previous minutes were accepted; actions-12 is now closed.
14:55:27 <Luc> zakim, who is here?
14:55:27 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has not yet started, Luc
14:55:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Luc, stain, sandro, trackbot
14:56:35 <jun> jun has joined #prov
14:56:39 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:56:46 <Zakim> +??P4
14:56:48 <Zakim> -??P4
14:56:50 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended
14:56:50 <Zakim> Attendees were 
14:57:16 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:57:23 <Zakim> +??P4
14:57:28 <stain> hmmm
14:57:33 <stain> I'm the first participant??
14:57:37 <Zakim> +Luc
14:57:40 <Luc> hi stain
14:57:50 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov
14:57:50 <stain> zakim, +??P4 is me
14:57:50 <Zakim> sorry, stain, I do not recognize a party named '+??P4'
14:58:04 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
14:58:08 <Luc> trackbot, start telcon
14:58:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:11 <stain> zakim, +??P4 is me
14:58:11 <Zakim> sorry, stain, I do not recognize a party named '+??P4'
14:58:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
14:58:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:58:13 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:58:13 <trackbot> Date: 30 June 2011
14:58:24 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?
14:58:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, Luc, [Microsoft]
14:58:38 <stain> Zakim: ??P4 is me
14:58:42 <paolo> paolo has joined #prov
14:58:42 <jorn> jorn has joined #prov
14:58:45 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?
14:58:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, Luc, [Microsoft]
14:59:14 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov
14:59:15 <pgroth> Zakim, [Microsoft] is me
14:59:16 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
14:59:34 <stain> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-23-06 is not there
14:59:41 <Zakim> +??P18
14:59:49 <Lena> Lena has joined #prov
14:59:52 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.06.30
15:00:07 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
15:00:16 <Luc> zakim, who is here?
15:00:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, Luc, pgroth, ??P18
15:00:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see zednik, Lena, SamCoppens, jorn, paolo, pgroth, jun, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, stain, sandro, trackbot
15:00:28 <Zakim> + +1.646.389.aaaa
15:00:30 <Zakim> +??P26
15:00:36 <Zakim> + +1.832.386.aabb
15:00:38 <paolo> zakim, ??P26 is me
15:00:39 <stain> Zakim, ??P4 is me
15:00:40 <Zakim> +paolo; got it
15:00:44 <Zakim> +stain; got it
15:01:00 <Zakim> +??P22
15:01:06 <Zakim> +??P33
15:01:15 <Zakim> +SamCoppens
15:01:16 <tfrancart> tfrancart has joined #prov
15:01:30 <jorn> zakim, ??p18 is me
15:01:30 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:02:20 <Zakim> - +1.646.389.aaaa
15:02:39 <Luc> PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of 23 Jun telecon
15:02:42 <StephenCresswell> StephenCresswell has joined #prov
15:02:45 <Luc>    http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-23-06
15:02:58 <stain> 404
15:03:02 <tfrancart> URL does not work
15:03:05 <paolo> +1
15:03:09 <stain> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-06-23 is correct
15:03:13 <Zakim> +[ISI]
15:03:14 <pgroth> \me it's really echoy or is that me
15:03:22 <jorn> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-06-23
15:03:37 <paolo> the secodn link is fine
15:03:38 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aacc
15:03:53 <jorn> +1
15:03:57 <SamCoppens> +1
15:03:57 <paolo> +1
15:03:59 <tfrancart> +1
15:04:00 <Lena> +!
15:04:02 <Lena> +1
15:04:04 <jorn> s/secodn/second/
15:04:07 <zednik> +1
15:04:11 <StephenCresswell> +1
15:04:14 <stain> 0 - not had a chance to read it :)
15:04:26 <YolandaGil> YolandaGil has joined #prov
15:04:32 <Zakim> +??P51
15:04:36 <Zakim> +??P24
15:04:44 <Luc>    http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open
15:04:44 <dcorsar> dcorsar has joined #prov
15:04:48 <jorn> zakim, please mute me
15:04:48 <Zakim> jorn should now be muted
15:04:51 <Zakim> + +1.650.386.aadd - is perhaps ralphh
15:04:51 <paolo> luc: review open actions
15:04:54 <jun> zakim, ??P24 is me
15:04:55 <Zakim> +jun; got it
15:05:10 <ralphh> ralphh has joined #prov
15:05:20 <paolo> Simon will report in the context of the PQA TF
15:05:31 <Zakim> + +1.509.375.aaee
15:05:47 <Luc> TOPIC: F2F Plan 
<luc>Summary: Sessions for the F2F meeting have been identified.  Detailed agenda will be posted the day before the meeting. 
15:05:51 <pgroth> please mute
15:05:55 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:F2F1Timetable 
15:05:58 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?
15:06:09 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: stain (54%), Luc (63%), SamCoppens (9%), ??P51 (57%)
15:06:24 <paolo> Luc: outline for the meeting has been drafted: 8 sessions, TF allocated to the sessions
15:06:51 <paolo> Luc: 4 sessions to model, 2 to PAQ Tf, 1 to connection and implementation
15:07:11 <paolo> content of sessions unspecified, to provide max flexibility
15:07:19 <Zakim> + +1.216.368.aaff
15:07:23 <paolo> agenda to be posted 1 day prior to meeting
15:07:36 <satya> satya has joined #prov
15:07:54 <paolo> q+
15:07:55 <Luc> q?
15:08:09 <Luc> TOPIC: Connection TF Plan to F2F1 
<luc>Summary: Eric reviewed progress. A good catalog of connections is being built up. It will be summarized at F2F1, and it is proposed to categorize contributions.
15:08:14 <paolo> q-
15:08:32 <Luc> q?
15:09:25 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Connection_Proposal
15:09:43 <paolo> Eric: happy with current proposals
15:09:50 <Luc> q?
15:09:54 <paolo> more contributions welcome
15:10:16 <paolo> Yolanda suggests to categorize contributions
15:10:23 <paolo> Eric: will be at meeting
15:10:28 <Luc> q?
15:10:39 <Luc> TOPIC: Implementation and Test Cases TF Plan to F2F1 
<luc>Summary: Helena indicated that over 30 entries had been submitted. A summary will be presented at F2F1.
15:10:55 <Luc> q?
15:11:14 <paolo> Helena: 32 entries, plan is to consolidate
15:11:23 <paolo> and compile them in terms of importance
15:11:29 <Zakim> + +1.217.417.aagg
15:11:36 <paolo> q+
15:11:42 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Unit_Test_Proposal 
15:11:54 <Luc> ack paolo
15:11:57 <Luc> q?
15:13:00 <Luc> q?
15:13:24 <pgroth> +q
15:13:27 <paolo> Helena: institutions vary geographically and by sector. Stats will be provided
15:13:34 <Luc> ack pgroth
15:13:59 <paolo> pgroth: wiki should record where the survey was sent -- which lists. 
15:14:16 <tfrancart> I distributed it to 3 of our partners/clients
15:14:39 <Zakim> -jorn
15:14:40 <pgroth> it's already done
15:14:51 <paolo> Luc: can we post the form itself on the wiki, so we don't depend on googledocs
15:14:58 <Lena> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Implementation_and_Test_Cases_Task_Force
15:15:01 <Zakim> +??P17
15:15:39 <stain> I see it
15:15:40 <jorn> zakim, who is here?
15:15:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see stain, Luc, pgroth, paolo, +1.832.386.aabb, ??P22, ??P33, SamCoppens, [ISI], +1.518.633.aacc, ??P51, jun, ralphh, +1.509.375.aaee, +1.216.368.aaff,
15:15:43 <Zakim> ... +1.217.417.aagg, ??P17
15:15:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see satya, ralphh, dcorsar, YolandaGil, StephenCresswell, tfrancart, zednik, Lena, SamCoppens, jorn, paolo, pgroth, jun, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, stain, sandro, trackbot
15:16:08 <Lena> Questionnaire is available at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Implementation_and_Test_Cases_Task_Force#W3C_Implementation_Stakeholder_Questionnaire
15:16:09 <paolo> Helena, Stephen will attend F2F remotely 
15:16:16 <stain> q+
15:17:02 <Luc> q?
15:17:19 <Luc> TOPIC: Access and Query TF Plan to F2F1 
<Luc> Summary: Simon circulated a summary of activities ahead of the meeting.   A series of proposals, and comments on them, have been curated, and will be presented at the F2F meeting.
15:17:20 <pgroth> stain?
15:17:21 <stain> q-
15:17:26 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Access_and_Query_Proposal 
15:17:27 <paolo> s/Stephen/Stephan/g   
15:17:30 <paolo> (sorry about that)
15:17:31 <Luc> Simon's report: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jun/0477.html 
15:17:40 <stain> I just wanted to say something about if we will have WebEx or something from the meeting to get a videolink
15:18:02 <Luc> q?
15:18:14 <paolo> Simon not in the call, report posted (see link)
15:18:18 <Luc> q?
15:18:27 <paolo> no comments from group
15:18:37 <paolo> Simon, Yogesh will both be at F2F
15:18:39 <Luc> TOPIC: Model TF Plan to F2F1 
<Luc>Summary: Paolo reviewed activities. A consolidated document, containing  definitions for  core concepts, and topics for discussion, has been produced. When the document is frozen, a notification will be sent to the mailing list. It was agreed that we shouldn't attempt to incorporate in this document definitions for other concepts that have not been discussed yet.
15:19:23 <jun> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConsolidatedConcepts
15:19:31 <jun> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Model_Proposal
15:20:02 <Luc> Scribe: Satya Sahoo
15:20:37 <satya> Paolo: Consolidated the discussion about provenance concepts into one page (link posted by Jun)
15:21:09 <satya> Paolo: All members of the TF contributed to the consolidation process
15:22:24 <satya> Paolo: the TF did not add to the definition of a concept. Each provenance concept has three sections: a consolidated definition, examples from the Data Journalism example, and outstanding issues related to the provenance concept
15:22:56 <Luc> q?
15:23:02 <satya> Paolo: Goal of this work is to present an unified view of the provenance concepts for further discussions during the F2F
15:23:15 <pgroth> +q
15:23:20 <ralphh> +q
15:23:21 <Luc> ack pgroth
15:23:50 <Luc> q?
15:24:01 <satya> pgroth: When will TF decide to freeze the wiki page with consolidated provenance concepts
15:24:44 <satya> Paolo: The wiki page is relatively stable, currently minor changes are being made
15:24:44 <Luc> ack ralphh
15:25:06 <Luc> q?
15:25:25 <ralphh> http://www.linkedmodel.org/doc/voag/1.0/
15:25:28 <pgroth> you just do it
15:25:30 <pgroth> :-)
15:25:54 <paolo> ralphh: volunteers to join the TF
15:25:56 <paolo> model TF
15:26:00 <stain> just edit http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces
15:26:10 <jun> respond to the mailing list:)
15:26:14 <satya> Ralph: How to join to the Model TF, have done previous work in modeling provenance issues
15:26:22 <pgroth> q+
15:27:31 <Luc>  Scribe: Paolo Missier 
15:27:42 <Luc> q?
15:27:58 <Luc> ack pgroth
15:28:08 <paolo> Ralph: will not be at F2F, but will contribute his past work to the TF
15:28:33 <paolo> Luc: suggests Ralph to add his references to the Connection TF
15:29:07 <Luc> q?
15:29:10 <paolo> Luc: 17 concepts were listed in the charter, 8 of those have been addressed in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConsolidatedConcepts
15:29:10 <satya> q+
15:29:12 <stain> q+
15:29:17 <paolo> what should be done about the others?
15:29:19 <Luc> ack satya
15:29:33 <paolo> Satya: pick up new concepts on only after the F2F
15:29:37 <stain> q-  (ack satya)
15:29:43 <Luc> ack stain
15:29:49 <Luc> q?
15:30:01 <paolo> Stian: agrees with Satya. We've got enough for the F2F
15:30:04 <paolo> q+
15:30:10 <Luc> ack paolo
15:30:25 <Zakim> -??P17
15:30:36 <Luc> q?
15:30:42 <satya> Paolo: Discussion in F2F will bring out new concepts that should be taken up next by Wg
15:30:44 <Zakim> +??P17
15:30:52 <jorn> zakim, ??p17 is me
15:30:52 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:31:02 <Luc> q?
15:31:11 <paolo> Luc: no further defs will be added to the current list before the F2F
15:31:28 <Luc> q?
15:31:34 <paolo> Luc: acknowledges the hard work of the Model TF! :-)
15:31:34 <Luc> TOPIC: Model Task Force 
<luc>Summary: In the spirit of building up our understanding of concepts, agreement was reached on a few more properties.  PIL is seen as an assertion language; derivation was defined; a set of event ordering constraints was adopted as a starting point to understand PIL.  Consensus was not reached on a definition of Agent since the group is still undecided as to whether the concept should be defined independently of process execution or not.
15:32:19 <paolo> Luc: some terms still require consensus, it would help to make progress today
15:32:29 <Luc>  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jun/0460.html
15:33:02 <paolo> Luc: the idea is that PIL is an /assertion language/
15:33:22 <Luc> q?
15:33:25 <paolo> idea socialized on the list but little feedback so far
15:33:32 <Luc> q?
15:34:05 <paolo> Jim Myers: that's fine, but what does that do for us?
15:34:51 <paolo> Luc: recurrent theme is that there are "asserters" in our definitions. So we may as well make it explicit upfront
15:35:24 <paolo> Jim: the idea of multiple witnesses that we agree on is aligned with this, so as a convenience that's fine
15:35:27 <satya> q+
15:35:30 <tfrancart> q+
15:35:34 <Luc> q?
15:35:37 <Luc> ack satya
15:36:13 <paolo> Satya: to follow up: if we see PIL in the RDF context, it follows naturally
15:36:23 <pgroth> stating the obvious isn't a bad thing ;-)
15:36:30 <paolo> Luc: yes, but for a different serialization this may be less obvious
15:36:34 <paolo> q+
15:36:34 <satya> ok
15:37:01 <paolo> Thomas: shouldn't we also define rules (inference) that come with assertions?
15:37:39 <paolo> Luc: this idea has been circulated, we currently are agnostic regarding the types of assertions -- rules may well be included
15:37:43 <satya> @Thomas: Inference will require us to define the formal semantics of the PIL first
15:37:49 <Luc> ack tfrancart
15:38:32 <satya> q+
15:38:33 <Luc> q?
15:39:25 <Luc> ack paolo
15:39:52 <Luc> ack satya
15:40:22 <paolo> Satya: inference is a mechanism to produce new assertions, note that the Rule exchange language is standard with W3C
15:40:41 <Luc> q?
15:40:42 <ralphh> +q
15:40:44 <paolo> Satya: what is the rule language? we need a formal semantics for PIL before we can move on to rules 
15:41:10 <Zakim> - +1.217.417.aagg
15:41:18 <paolo> Ralph: can we have a reference to PIL? how about refutation, conjecture in addition to asertion
15:41:27 <paolo> s/asertion/assertion
15:41:29 <satya> W3C Rule Interchange Format recommendation: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_Working_Group
15:41:40 <Luc> ack ralphh
15:41:44 <paolo> Luc: PIL is what we are defining. it's a codename
15:42:04 <paolo> Luc: conjecture, refutation not part of charter but may well be discussed 
15:42:05 <Luc> q?
15:42:07 <jorn> q+
15:42:14 <Luc> PROPOSED: PIL is an assertion language, which allows asserters to make assertions about stuffs and activities in the real world (as they view it) and how they influence each other. 
15:42:28 <jorn> q-
15:42:29 <satya> +1
15:42:30 <stain> +1
15:42:32 <tfrancart> +1
15:42:32 <zednik> +1
15:42:35 <paolo> +1
15:42:37 <dcorsar> +1
15:42:42 <SamCoppens> +1
15:42:43 <ralphh> +1
15:42:44 <Lena> +1
15:43:03 <Luc> ACCEPTED: PIL is an assertion language, which allows asserters to make assertions about stuffs and activities in the real world (as they view it) and how they influence each other.
15:43:24 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jun/0459.html
15:43:38 <paolo> Luc: on the concept of Derivation
15:44:00 <Luc> q?
15:44:05 <paolo> Luc: any major objection to the proposal? (see link)
15:44:13 <Luc> q?
15:44:29 <Luc> PROPOSED: Derivation represents how stuff is transformed from, created from, or affected by other stuff. A thing B is derived from a thing A if the values of some invariant properties of B are at least partially determined by the values of some invariant properties of A.
15:44:39 <stain> +1
15:44:44 <jun> +1
15:44:46 <tfrancart> 0
15:44:51 <satya> +1
15:44:53 <dcorsar> +1
15:44:57 <SamCoppens> +1
15:45:01 <paolo> q+
15:45:02 <zednik> +q
15:45:09 <ralphh> +1
15:45:11 <Luc> q?
15:46:11 <Zakim> -jorn
15:46:12 <ralphh> q+
15:46:26 <Zakim> +??P17
15:46:31 <Luc> ack paolo
15:47:05 <paolo> zednik: just looked at proposal. is Derivation is a relation or a thing?
15:47:14 <satya> @Stephan - I agree, derivation is a property
15:47:22 <paolo> it  ought to be a relation
15:48:01 <stain> it sounds like a relation to me.. but which could also have deeper details (such as a link to a process execution)
15:48:06 <Luc> q?
15:48:20 <paolo> Luc: up for discussion at F2F. Others raised the issue
15:48:36 <pgroth> i guess it's just english
15:48:36 <paolo> zednik: are we also saying /how/ something was derived?
15:48:48 <satya> @Stephan: The how part is not covered in derivation (my POV)
15:49:16 <pgroth> the transformation of stuff from?
15:49:43 <Luc> PROPOSED: Derivation expresses that some stuff is transformed from, created from, or affected by other stuff. A thing B is derived from a thing A if the values of some invariant properties of B are at least partially determined by the values of some invariant properties of A.
15:49:53 <Luc> ack zednik
15:50:22 <paolo> Ralph: derivation is a transformation, but a reified relationship 
15:50:36 <jorn> one could always reificate more information onto the derivation statement, couldn't one?
15:50:58 <paolo> Ralph: affected by: opens up derivation in a bigger notion, not sure about the term "affect" 
15:51:46 <paolo> Luc: first sentence about high level idea of what Derivation is, clearly it's not formal 
15:52:22 <Luc> ack 
15:52:23 <stain> What if we add "In PIL, a thing B is..."
15:52:23 <paolo> Luc: second part triesd to explain what Derviation means wrt the constructs of the language. Says how Derivation can influence some properties
15:52:24 <Luc> q?
15:52:29 <Luc> ack ralphh
15:52:48 <stain> +1
15:52:56 <jun> +1
15:53:02 <jorn> +1
15:53:05 <paolo> +1
15:53:15 <SamCoppens> +1
15:53:34 <zednik> +0 (undecided, I want to see in a use case example)
15:53:39 <ralphh> +1
15:53:46 <Lena> 0 
15:53:55 <tfrancart> 0 : not sure why it refers only to "invariant properties" ?
15:53:56 <paolo> pgroth: reminder; 0 abstain , -1 for reject, +1 for accept
15:53:57 <Luc> ACCEPTED: Derivation expresses that some stuff is transformed from, created from, or affected by other stuff. A thing B is derived from a thing A if the values of some invariant properties of B are at least partially determined by the values of some invariant properties of A.
15:54:06 <paolo> q+
15:54:18 <Luc> q?
15:54:52 <jorn> jorn has left #prov
15:55:00 <jorn> jorn has joined #prov
15:55:48 <Luc> q?
15:55:52 <Luc> ack paolo
15:56:41 <Luc> q?
15:57:08 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jun/0439.html
15:57:10 <paolo> Luc: need to have some education activity to make sure all the basic concepts are clear, including  thing, invariant properties, etc.
15:57:37 <paolo> [sorry I missed Luc's sentences]
15:57:54 <Luc> PROPOSED: An agent is an active thing. It may be linked to a process  execution, for example, by controlling it. Examples of agent include person, organization, and software agent.
15:58:08 <ralphh> +q
15:58:11 <Luc> q?
15:58:43 <paolo> q+
15:58:58 <Luc> q?
15:59:02 <Luc> ack ralphh
15:59:04 <Luc> q?
15:59:08 <pgroth> In pil: "things" represent real-world stuffs and have properties modeling aspects of stuff states
15:59:37 <satya> Ralph: Many ontologies use the term "party" instead of agent
15:59:46 <Luc> q?
15:59:50 <Luc> ack paolo
15:59:55 <ralphh> instead of "Thing" not "Agent"
15:59:59 <paolo> Ralph: Can we replace "thing" with "party" in the def?
15:59:59 <Luc> PROPOSED: An agent is an active thing. It may be linked to a process  execution, for example, by controlling it. Examples of agent include person, organization, and software agent.
16:00:33 <paolo> Luc: "thing" is used in the technical sense of PIL
16:00:45 <paolo> Satya: is linking an Agent to a process optional?
16:00:58 <zednik> q+
16:00:58 <paolo> Luc: def. is agnostic about it
16:01:37 <Zakim> -paolo
16:01:45 <Zakim> -[ISI]
16:01:49 <paolo> my skype crashed out
16:01:54 <Zakim> -??P17
16:01:58 <paolo> sorry
16:01:59 <Luc> SCRIBE: Satya Sahoo
16:02:03 <Zakim> -SamCoppens
16:02:16 <Zakim> +??P17
16:02:39 <satya> Paolo: Definition of Agent will be debated further
16:02:49 <satya> Paolo/Luc
16:03:32 <satya> Luc: Discussion on notion of Time in previous WG telcon
16:03:46 <Luc> n PIL, there are different kinds of events: beginning of process execution, end of process execution, generation of thing, use of thing, which satisfy some ordering, according to relation "precede": 
16:04:36 <satya> Luc: Four events identified with respect to the concept of Time
16:05:07 <Zakim> - +1.509.375.aaee
16:05:29 <Luc> q?
16:06:02 <Luc> q?
16:06:04 <stain> q+
16:06:06 <satya> Luc: Is WG in agreement on the ordering constraints illustrated by the four events?
16:06:46 <pgroth> mailing list is good
16:06:47 <zednik> q-
16:06:52 <satya> zednik: Have comment on definition of Agent
16:06:56 <Luc> ack stain
16:07:40 <satya> Stian: w.r.t creation and use of a thing, are they associated with fixed point of time (?)
16:09:04 <satya> Luc: Stian's example of streaming video can be modeled as either as a series of Thing or a Thing
16:09:25 <Luc> q?
16:09:32 <satya> Stian: Agree with Luc's point 
16:09:37 <ralphh> q
16:09:38 <Luc> q?
16:09:44 <ralphh> q+
16:09:49 <pgroth> ralph
16:10:31 <Luc> PROPOSED: we use the set of constraints as a starting point for defining the semantics of PIL
16:10:53 <Luc> q?
16:10:55 <satya> q+
16:11:28 <Luc> ack ralphh
16:11:34 <satya> Ralph: Temporal logics has multiple ways of ordering, so there are more than four types of events
16:11:49 <Luc> q?
16:12:13 <satya> Ralph: Will provide reference to multiple ordering of events
16:12:17 <Luc> q?
16:12:28 <Luc> ack satya
16:12:50 <satya> Luc: This definition is similar to Lamport's paper
16:14:25 <Luc> q?
16:14:26 <Lena> (apologies, I need to leave)
16:14:42 <Luc> PROPOSED: we use the set of constraints as a starting point for defining the semantics of PIL
16:14:53 <Lena> +1
16:14:58 <ralphh> +1
16:15:00 <stain> don't we need to agree on the constraints first?
16:15:06 <Zakim> - +1.832.386.aabb
16:15:29 <satya> pgroth: Suggest removing "semantics"
16:15:34 <Luc> PROPOSED: we use the set of constraints as a starting point for building an understanding of PIL
16:15:41 <satya> +1
16:15:46 <jun> 0 (feels a bit premature to propose these constraints; but fine with using them as a starting point)
16:15:55 <stain> +1
16:15:56 <tfrancart> +1
16:15:59 <zednik> +1
16:16:01 <dcorsar> +1
16:16:16 <jorn> 0
16:16:23 <stain> @jun as we're not voting on the constraints themselves they are not set in stone
16:16:47 <stain> zednik: who?
16:16:49 <jun> @stain, yes agreed
16:16:50 <Luc> ACCEPTED: we use the set of constraints as a starting point for building an understanding of PIL
16:16:51 <stain> Zakim: who?
16:16:58 <stain> Zakim: who is on the call?
16:17:03 <ralphh> On the subject of temporal relationships, Allen defined 13 - I will post some references
16:17:20 <stain> q+
16:17:25 <Zakim> -jun
16:17:26 <Zakim> -??P17
16:17:40 <Zakim> -??P22
16:17:42 <Zakim> - +1.518.633.aacc
16:17:44 <Zakim> -??P51
16:17:45 <ralphh> bye
16:17:49 <Zakim> - +1.216.368.aaff
16:17:53 <ralphh> quit
16:17:55 <Zakim> -pgroth
16:17:57 <Zakim> -Luc
16:17:57 <Zakim> -stain
16:18:09 <Zakim> -ralphh
16:18:26 <stain> I wanted to ask if there will be a videolink or webex from the f2f - or just telcon link
16:18:40 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public
16:18:45 <pgroth> telcon only
16:18:51 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes 
16:18:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-prov-minutes.html Luc
16:18:59 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon
16:18:59 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:18:59 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Luc, pgroth, +1.646.389.aaaa, +1.832.386.aabb, paolo, stain, SamCoppens, jorn, [ISI], +1.518.633.aacc, +1.650.386.aadd, jun,
16:19:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:19:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-prov-minutes.html trackbot
16:19:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:19:01 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:19:02 <Zakim> ... +1.509.375.aaee, +1.216.368.aaff, +1.217.417.aagg
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