From Provenance WG Wiki
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14:42:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov 14:42:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-prov-irc 14:42:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:42:54 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov 14:42:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 14:42:56 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 14:42:57 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 14:42:57 <trackbot> Date: 30 June 2011 14:43:02 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 14:43:02 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 17 minutes 14:43:15 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.06.30 14:43:24 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau 14:43:29 <Luc> Scribe: Paolo Missier 14:43:53 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 14:43:55 <Luc> Regrets: Daniel Garijo, Simon Miles, Yogesh Simmhan, James Cheney, Simon Dobson, Graham Klyne, Deborah McGuinness, Paulo Pinheiro da Silva, Timothy Lebo 14:44:15 <Luc> TOPIC: Admin <luc> Summary:The previous minutes were accepted; actions-12 is now closed. 14:55:27 <Luc> zakim, who is here? 14:55:27 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has not yet started, Luc 14:55:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Luc, stain, sandro, trackbot 14:56:35 <jun> jun has joined #prov 14:56:39 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started 14:56:46 <Zakim> +??P4 14:56:48 <Zakim> -??P4 14:56:50 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended 14:56:50 <Zakim> Attendees were 14:57:16 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started 14:57:23 <Zakim> +??P4 14:57:28 <stain> hmmm 14:57:33 <stain> I'm the first participant?? 14:57:37 <Zakim> +Luc 14:57:40 <Luc> hi stain 14:57:50 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov 14:57:50 <stain> zakim, +??P4 is me 14:57:50 <Zakim> sorry, stain, I do not recognize a party named '+??P4' 14:58:04 <Zakim> +[Microsoft] 14:58:08 <Luc> trackbot, start telcon 14:58:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:58:11 <stain> zakim, +??P4 is me 14:58:11 <Zakim> sorry, stain, I do not recognize a party named '+??P4' 14:58:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 14:58:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 14:58:13 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 14:58:13 <trackbot> Date: 30 June 2011 14:58:24 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call? 14:58:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, Luc, [Microsoft] 14:58:38 <stain> Zakim: ??P4 is me 14:58:42 <paolo> paolo has joined #prov 14:58:42 <jorn> jorn has joined #prov 14:58:45 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call? 14:58:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, Luc, [Microsoft] 14:59:14 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov 14:59:15 <pgroth> Zakim, [Microsoft] is me 14:59:16 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it 14:59:34 <stain> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-23-06 is not there 14:59:41 <Zakim> +??P18 14:59:49 <Lena> Lena has joined #prov 14:59:52 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.06.30 15:00:07 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov 15:00:16 <Luc> zakim, who is here? 15:00:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, Luc, pgroth, ??P18 15:00:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see zednik, Lena, SamCoppens, jorn, paolo, pgroth, jun, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, stain, sandro, trackbot 15:00:28 <Zakim> + +1.646.389.aaaa 15:00:30 <Zakim> +??P26 15:00:36 <Zakim> + +1.832.386.aabb 15:00:38 <paolo> zakim, ??P26 is me 15:00:39 <stain> Zakim, ??P4 is me 15:00:40 <Zakim> +paolo; got it 15:00:44 <Zakim> +stain; got it 15:01:00 <Zakim> +??P22 15:01:06 <Zakim> +??P33 15:01:15 <Zakim> +SamCoppens 15:01:16 <tfrancart> tfrancart has joined #prov 15:01:30 <jorn> zakim, ??p18 is me 15:01:30 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 15:02:20 <Zakim> - +1.646.389.aaaa 15:02:39 <Luc> PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of 23 Jun telecon 15:02:42 <StephenCresswell> StephenCresswell has joined #prov 15:02:45 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-23-06 15:02:58 <stain> 404 15:03:02 <tfrancart> URL does not work 15:03:05 <paolo> +1 15:03:09 <stain> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-06-23 is correct 15:03:13 <Zakim> +[ISI] 15:03:14 <pgroth> \me it's really echoy or is that me 15:03:22 <jorn> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-06-23 15:03:37 <paolo> the secodn link is fine 15:03:38 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aacc 15:03:53 <jorn> +1 15:03:57 <SamCoppens> +1 15:03:57 <paolo> +1 15:03:59 <tfrancart> +1 15:04:00 <Lena> +! 15:04:02 <Lena> +1 15:04:04 <jorn> s/secodn/second/ 15:04:07 <zednik> +1 15:04:11 <StephenCresswell> +1 15:04:14 <stain> 0 - not had a chance to read it :) 15:04:26 <YolandaGil> YolandaGil has joined #prov 15:04:32 <Zakim> +??P51 15:04:36 <Zakim> +??P24 15:04:44 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open 15:04:44 <dcorsar> dcorsar has joined #prov 15:04:48 <jorn> zakim, please mute me 15:04:48 <Zakim> jorn should now be muted 15:04:51 <Zakim> + +1.650.386.aadd - is perhaps ralphh 15:04:51 <paolo> luc: review open actions 15:04:54 <jun> zakim, ??P24 is me 15:04:55 <Zakim> +jun; got it 15:05:10 <ralphh> ralphh has joined #prov 15:05:20 <paolo> Simon will report in the context of the PQA TF 15:05:31 <Zakim> + +1.509.375.aaee 15:05:47 <Luc> TOPIC: F2F Plan <luc>Summary: Sessions for the F2F meeting have been identified. Detailed agenda will be posted the day before the meeting. 15:05:51 <pgroth> please mute 15:05:55 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:F2F1Timetable 15:05:58 <jorn> zakim, who is talking? 15:06:09 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: stain (54%), Luc (63%), SamCoppens (9%), ??P51 (57%) 15:06:24 <paolo> Luc: outline for the meeting has been drafted: 8 sessions, TF allocated to the sessions 15:06:51 <paolo> Luc: 4 sessions to model, 2 to PAQ Tf, 1 to connection and implementation 15:07:11 <paolo> content of sessions unspecified, to provide max flexibility 15:07:19 <Zakim> + +1.216.368.aaff 15:07:23 <paolo> agenda to be posted 1 day prior to meeting 15:07:36 <satya> satya has joined #prov 15:07:54 <paolo> q+ 15:07:55 <Luc> q? 15:08:09 <Luc> TOPIC: Connection TF Plan to F2F1 <luc>Summary: Eric reviewed progress. A good catalog of connections is being built up. It will be summarized at F2F1, and it is proposed to categorize contributions. 15:08:14 <paolo> q- 15:08:32 <Luc> q? 15:09:25 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Connection_Proposal 15:09:43 <paolo> Eric: happy with current proposals 15:09:50 <Luc> q? 15:09:54 <paolo> more contributions welcome 15:10:16 <paolo> Yolanda suggests to categorize contributions 15:10:23 <paolo> Eric: will be at meeting 15:10:28 <Luc> q? 15:10:39 <Luc> TOPIC: Implementation and Test Cases TF Plan to F2F1 <luc>Summary: Helena indicated that over 30 entries had been submitted. A summary will be presented at F2F1. 15:10:55 <Luc> q? 15:11:14 <paolo> Helena: 32 entries, plan is to consolidate 15:11:23 <paolo> and compile them in terms of importance 15:11:29 <Zakim> + +1.217.417.aagg 15:11:36 <paolo> q+ 15:11:42 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Unit_Test_Proposal 15:11:54 <Luc> ack paolo 15:11:57 <Luc> q? 15:13:00 <Luc> q? 15:13:24 <pgroth> +q 15:13:27 <paolo> Helena: institutions vary geographically and by sector. Stats will be provided 15:13:34 <Luc> ack pgroth 15:13:59 <paolo> pgroth: wiki should record where the survey was sent -- which lists. 15:14:16 <tfrancart> I distributed it to 3 of our partners/clients 15:14:39 <Zakim> -jorn 15:14:40 <pgroth> it's already done 15:14:51 <paolo> Luc: can we post the form itself on the wiki, so we don't depend on googledocs 15:14:58 <Lena> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Implementation_and_Test_Cases_Task_Force 15:15:01 <Zakim> +??P17 15:15:39 <stain> I see it 15:15:40 <jorn> zakim, who is here? 15:15:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see stain, Luc, pgroth, paolo, +1.832.386.aabb, ??P22, ??P33, SamCoppens, [ISI], +1.518.633.aacc, ??P51, jun, ralphh, +1.509.375.aaee, +1.216.368.aaff, 15:15:43 <Zakim> ... +1.217.417.aagg, ??P17 15:15:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see satya, ralphh, dcorsar, YolandaGil, StephenCresswell, tfrancart, zednik, Lena, SamCoppens, jorn, paolo, pgroth, jun, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, stain, sandro, trackbot 15:16:08 <Lena> Questionnaire is available at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Implementation_and_Test_Cases_Task_Force#W3C_Implementation_Stakeholder_Questionnaire 15:16:09 <paolo> Helena, Stephen will attend F2F remotely 15:16:16 <stain> q+ 15:17:02 <Luc> q? 15:17:19 <Luc> TOPIC: Access and Query TF Plan to F2F1 <Luc> Summary: Simon circulated a summary of activities ahead of the meeting. A series of proposals, and comments on them, have been curated, and will be presented at the F2F meeting. 15:17:20 <pgroth> stain? 15:17:21 <stain> q- 15:17:26 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Access_and_Query_Proposal 15:17:27 <paolo> s/Stephen/Stephan/g 15:17:30 <paolo> (sorry about that) 15:17:31 <Luc> Simon's report: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jun/0477.html 15:17:40 <stain> I just wanted to say something about if we will have WebEx or something from the meeting to get a videolink 15:18:02 <Luc> q? 15:18:14 <paolo> Simon not in the call, report posted (see link) 15:18:18 <Luc> q? 15:18:27 <paolo> no comments from group 15:18:37 <paolo> Simon, Yogesh will both be at F2F 15:18:39 <Luc> TOPIC: Model TF Plan to F2F1 <Luc>Summary: Paolo reviewed activities. A consolidated document, containing definitions for core concepts, and topics for discussion, has been produced. When the document is frozen, a notification will be sent to the mailing list. It was agreed that we shouldn't attempt to incorporate in this document definitions for other concepts that have not been discussed yet. 15:19:23 <jun> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConsolidatedConcepts 15:19:31 <jun> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Model_Proposal 15:20:02 <Luc> Scribe: Satya Sahoo 15:20:37 <satya> Paolo: Consolidated the discussion about provenance concepts into one page (link posted by Jun) 15:21:09 <satya> Paolo: All members of the TF contributed to the consolidation process 15:22:24 <satya> Paolo: the TF did not add to the definition of a concept. Each provenance concept has three sections: a consolidated definition, examples from the Data Journalism example, and outstanding issues related to the provenance concept 15:22:56 <Luc> q? 15:23:02 <satya> Paolo: Goal of this work is to present an unified view of the provenance concepts for further discussions during the F2F 15:23:15 <pgroth> +q 15:23:20 <ralphh> +q 15:23:21 <Luc> ack pgroth 15:23:50 <Luc> q? 15:24:01 <satya> pgroth: When will TF decide to freeze the wiki page with consolidated provenance concepts 15:24:44 <satya> Paolo: The wiki page is relatively stable, currently minor changes are being made 15:24:44 <Luc> ack ralphh 15:25:06 <Luc> q? 15:25:25 <ralphh> http://www.linkedmodel.org/doc/voag/1.0/ 15:25:28 <pgroth> you just do it 15:25:30 <pgroth> :-) 15:25:54 <paolo> ralphh: volunteers to join the TF 15:25:56 <paolo> model TF 15:26:00 <stain> just edit http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces 15:26:10 <jun> respond to the mailing list:) 15:26:14 <satya> Ralph: How to join to the Model TF, have done previous work in modeling provenance issues 15:26:22 <pgroth> q+ 15:27:31 <Luc> Scribe: Paolo Missier 15:27:42 <Luc> q? 15:27:58 <Luc> ack pgroth 15:28:08 <paolo> Ralph: will not be at F2F, but will contribute his past work to the TF 15:28:33 <paolo> Luc: suggests Ralph to add his references to the Connection TF 15:29:07 <Luc> q? 15:29:10 <paolo> Luc: 17 concepts were listed in the charter, 8 of those have been addressed in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConsolidatedConcepts 15:29:10 <satya> q+ 15:29:12 <stain> q+ 15:29:17 <paolo> what should be done about the others? 15:29:19 <Luc> ack satya 15:29:33 <paolo> Satya: pick up new concepts on only after the F2F 15:29:37 <stain> q- (ack satya) 15:29:43 <Luc> ack stain 15:29:49 <Luc> q? 15:30:01 <paolo> Stian: agrees with Satya. We've got enough for the F2F 15:30:04 <paolo> q+ 15:30:10 <Luc> ack paolo 15:30:25 <Zakim> -??P17 15:30:36 <Luc> q? 15:30:42 <satya> Paolo: Discussion in F2F will bring out new concepts that should be taken up next by Wg 15:30:44 <Zakim> +??P17 15:30:52 <jorn> zakim, ??p17 is me 15:30:52 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 15:31:02 <Luc> q? 15:31:11 <paolo> Luc: no further defs will be added to the current list before the F2F 15:31:28 <Luc> q? 15:31:34 <paolo> Luc: acknowledges the hard work of the Model TF! :-) 15:31:34 <Luc> TOPIC: Model Task Force <luc>Summary: In the spirit of building up our understanding of concepts, agreement was reached on a few more properties. PIL is seen as an assertion language; derivation was defined; a set of event ordering constraints was adopted as a starting point to understand PIL. Consensus was not reached on a definition of Agent since the group is still undecided as to whether the concept should be defined independently of process execution or not. 15:32:19 <paolo> Luc: some terms still require consensus, it would help to make progress today 15:32:29 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jun/0460.html 15:33:02 <paolo> Luc: the idea is that PIL is an /assertion language/ 15:33:22 <Luc> q? 15:33:25 <paolo> idea socialized on the list but little feedback so far 15:33:32 <Luc> q? 15:34:05 <paolo> Jim Myers: that's fine, but what does that do for us? 15:34:51 <paolo> Luc: recurrent theme is that there are "asserters" in our definitions. So we may as well make it explicit upfront 15:35:24 <paolo> Jim: the idea of multiple witnesses that we agree on is aligned with this, so as a convenience that's fine 15:35:27 <satya> q+ 15:35:30 <tfrancart> q+ 15:35:34 <Luc> q? 15:35:37 <Luc> ack satya 15:36:13 <paolo> Satya: to follow up: if we see PIL in the RDF context, it follows naturally 15:36:23 <pgroth> stating the obvious isn't a bad thing ;-) 15:36:30 <paolo> Luc: yes, but for a different serialization this may be less obvious 15:36:34 <paolo> q+ 15:36:34 <satya> ok 15:37:01 <paolo> Thomas: shouldn't we also define rules (inference) that come with assertions? 15:37:39 <paolo> Luc: this idea has been circulated, we currently are agnostic regarding the types of assertions -- rules may well be included 15:37:43 <satya> @Thomas: Inference will require us to define the formal semantics of the PIL first 15:37:49 <Luc> ack tfrancart 15:38:32 <satya> q+ 15:38:33 <Luc> q? 15:39:25 <Luc> ack paolo 15:39:52 <Luc> ack satya 15:40:22 <paolo> Satya: inference is a mechanism to produce new assertions, note that the Rule exchange language is standard with W3C 15:40:41 <Luc> q? 15:40:42 <ralphh> +q 15:40:44 <paolo> Satya: what is the rule language? we need a formal semantics for PIL before we can move on to rules 15:41:10 <Zakim> - +1.217.417.aagg 15:41:18 <paolo> Ralph: can we have a reference to PIL? how about refutation, conjecture in addition to asertion 15:41:27 <paolo> s/asertion/assertion 15:41:29 <satya> W3C Rule Interchange Format recommendation: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_Working_Group 15:41:40 <Luc> ack ralphh 15:41:44 <paolo> Luc: PIL is what we are defining. it's a codename 15:42:04 <paolo> Luc: conjecture, refutation not part of charter but may well be discussed 15:42:05 <Luc> q? 15:42:07 <jorn> q+ 15:42:14 <Luc> PROPOSED: PIL is an assertion language, which allows asserters to make assertions about stuffs and activities in the real world (as they view it) and how they influence each other. 15:42:28 <jorn> q- 15:42:29 <satya> +1 15:42:30 <stain> +1 15:42:32 <tfrancart> +1 15:42:32 <zednik> +1 15:42:35 <paolo> +1 15:42:37 <dcorsar> +1 15:42:42 <SamCoppens> +1 15:42:43 <ralphh> +1 15:42:44 <Lena> +1 15:43:03 <Luc> ACCEPTED: PIL is an assertion language, which allows asserters to make assertions about stuffs and activities in the real world (as they view it) and how they influence each other. 15:43:24 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jun/0459.html 15:43:38 <paolo> Luc: on the concept of Derivation 15:44:00 <Luc> q? 15:44:05 <paolo> Luc: any major objection to the proposal? (see link) 15:44:13 <Luc> q? 15:44:29 <Luc> PROPOSED: Derivation represents how stuff is transformed from, created from, or affected by other stuff. A thing B is derived from a thing A if the values of some invariant properties of B are at least partially determined by the values of some invariant properties of A. 15:44:39 <stain> +1 15:44:44 <jun> +1 15:44:46 <tfrancart> 0 15:44:51 <satya> +1 15:44:53 <dcorsar> +1 15:44:57 <SamCoppens> +1 15:45:01 <paolo> q+ 15:45:02 <zednik> +q 15:45:09 <ralphh> +1 15:45:11 <Luc> q? 15:46:11 <Zakim> -jorn 15:46:12 <ralphh> q+ 15:46:26 <Zakim> +??P17 15:46:31 <Luc> ack paolo 15:47:05 <paolo> zednik: just looked at proposal. is Derivation is a relation or a thing? 15:47:14 <satya> @Stephan - I agree, derivation is a property 15:47:22 <paolo> it ought to be a relation 15:48:01 <stain> it sounds like a relation to me.. but which could also have deeper details (such as a link to a process execution) 15:48:06 <Luc> q? 15:48:20 <paolo> Luc: up for discussion at F2F. Others raised the issue 15:48:36 <pgroth> i guess it's just english 15:48:36 <paolo> zednik: are we also saying /how/ something was derived? 15:48:48 <satya> @Stephan: The how part is not covered in derivation (my POV) 15:49:16 <pgroth> the transformation of stuff from? 15:49:43 <Luc> PROPOSED: Derivation expresses that some stuff is transformed from, created from, or affected by other stuff. A thing B is derived from a thing A if the values of some invariant properties of B are at least partially determined by the values of some invariant properties of A. 15:49:53 <Luc> ack zednik 15:50:22 <paolo> Ralph: derivation is a transformation, but a reified relationship 15:50:36 <jorn> one could always reificate more information onto the derivation statement, couldn't one? 15:50:58 <paolo> Ralph: affected by: opens up derivation in a bigger notion, not sure about the term "affect" 15:51:46 <paolo> Luc: first sentence about high level idea of what Derivation is, clearly it's not formal 15:52:22 <Luc> ack 15:52:23 <stain> What if we add "In PIL, a thing B is..." 15:52:23 <paolo> Luc: second part triesd to explain what Derviation means wrt the constructs of the language. Says how Derivation can influence some properties 15:52:24 <Luc> q? 15:52:29 <Luc> ack ralphh 15:52:48 <stain> +1 15:52:56 <jun> +1 15:53:02 <jorn> +1 15:53:05 <paolo> +1 15:53:15 <SamCoppens> +1 15:53:34 <zednik> +0 (undecided, I want to see in a use case example) 15:53:39 <ralphh> +1 15:53:46 <Lena> 0 15:53:55 <tfrancart> 0 : not sure why it refers only to "invariant properties" ? 15:53:56 <paolo> pgroth: reminder; 0 abstain , -1 for reject, +1 for accept 15:53:57 <Luc> ACCEPTED: Derivation expresses that some stuff is transformed from, created from, or affected by other stuff. A thing B is derived from a thing A if the values of some invariant properties of B are at least partially determined by the values of some invariant properties of A. 15:54:06 <paolo> q+ 15:54:18 <Luc> q? 15:54:52 <jorn> jorn has left #prov 15:55:00 <jorn> jorn has joined #prov 15:55:48 <Luc> q? 15:55:52 <Luc> ack paolo 15:56:41 <Luc> q? 15:57:08 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jun/0439.html 15:57:10 <paolo> Luc: need to have some education activity to make sure all the basic concepts are clear, including thing, invariant properties, etc. 15:57:37 <paolo> [sorry I missed Luc's sentences] 15:57:54 <Luc> PROPOSED: An agent is an active thing. It may be linked to a process execution, for example, by controlling it. Examples of agent include person, organization, and software agent. 15:58:08 <ralphh> +q 15:58:11 <Luc> q? 15:58:43 <paolo> q+ 15:58:58 <Luc> q? 15:59:02 <Luc> ack ralphh 15:59:04 <Luc> q? 15:59:08 <pgroth> In pil: "things" represent real-world stuffs and have properties modeling aspects of stuff states 15:59:37 <satya> Ralph: Many ontologies use the term "party" instead of agent 15:59:46 <Luc> q? 15:59:50 <Luc> ack paolo 15:59:55 <ralphh> instead of "Thing" not "Agent" 15:59:59 <paolo> Ralph: Can we replace "thing" with "party" in the def? 15:59:59 <Luc> PROPOSED: An agent is an active thing. It may be linked to a process execution, for example, by controlling it. Examples of agent include person, organization, and software agent. 16:00:33 <paolo> Luc: "thing" is used in the technical sense of PIL 16:00:45 <paolo> Satya: is linking an Agent to a process optional? 16:00:58 <zednik> q+ 16:00:58 <paolo> Luc: def. is agnostic about it 16:01:37 <Zakim> -paolo 16:01:45 <Zakim> -[ISI] 16:01:49 <paolo> my skype crashed out 16:01:54 <Zakim> -??P17 16:01:58 <paolo> sorry 16:01:59 <Luc> SCRIBE: Satya Sahoo 16:02:03 <Zakim> -SamCoppens 16:02:16 <Zakim> +??P17 16:02:39 <satya> Paolo: Definition of Agent will be debated further 16:02:49 <satya> Paolo/Luc 16:03:32 <satya> Luc: Discussion on notion of Time in previous WG telcon 16:03:46 <Luc> n PIL, there are different kinds of events: beginning of process execution, end of process execution, generation of thing, use of thing, which satisfy some ordering, according to relation "precede": 16:04:36 <satya> Luc: Four events identified with respect to the concept of Time 16:05:07 <Zakim> - +1.509.375.aaee 16:05:29 <Luc> q? 16:06:02 <Luc> q? 16:06:04 <stain> q+ 16:06:06 <satya> Luc: Is WG in agreement on the ordering constraints illustrated by the four events? 16:06:46 <pgroth> mailing list is good 16:06:47 <zednik> q- 16:06:52 <satya> zednik: Have comment on definition of Agent 16:06:56 <Luc> ack stain 16:07:40 <satya> Stian: w.r.t creation and use of a thing, are they associated with fixed point of time (?) 16:09:04 <satya> Luc: Stian's example of streaming video can be modeled as either as a series of Thing or a Thing 16:09:25 <Luc> q? 16:09:32 <satya> Stian: Agree with Luc's point 16:09:37 <ralphh> q 16:09:38 <Luc> q? 16:09:44 <ralphh> q+ 16:09:49 <pgroth> ralph 16:10:31 <Luc> PROPOSED: we use the set of constraints as a starting point for defining the semantics of PIL 16:10:53 <Luc> q? 16:10:55 <satya> q+ 16:11:28 <Luc> ack ralphh 16:11:34 <satya> Ralph: Temporal logics has multiple ways of ordering, so there are more than four types of events 16:11:49 <Luc> q? 16:12:13 <satya> Ralph: Will provide reference to multiple ordering of events 16:12:17 <Luc> q? 16:12:28 <Luc> ack satya 16:12:50 <satya> Luc: This definition is similar to Lamport's paper 16:14:25 <Luc> q? 16:14:26 <Lena> (apologies, I need to leave) 16:14:42 <Luc> PROPOSED: we use the set of constraints as a starting point for defining the semantics of PIL 16:14:53 <Lena> +1 16:14:58 <ralphh> +1 16:15:00 <stain> don't we need to agree on the constraints first? 16:15:06 <Zakim> - +1.832.386.aabb 16:15:29 <satya> pgroth: Suggest removing "semantics" 16:15:34 <Luc> PROPOSED: we use the set of constraints as a starting point for building an understanding of PIL 16:15:41 <satya> +1 16:15:46 <jun> 0 (feels a bit premature to propose these constraints; but fine with using them as a starting point) 16:15:55 <stain> +1 16:15:56 <tfrancart> +1 16:15:59 <zednik> +1 16:16:01 <dcorsar> +1 16:16:16 <jorn> 0 16:16:23 <stain> @jun as we're not voting on the constraints themselves they are not set in stone 16:16:47 <stain> zednik: who? 16:16:49 <jun> @stain, yes agreed 16:16:50 <Luc> ACCEPTED: we use the set of constraints as a starting point for building an understanding of PIL 16:16:51 <stain> Zakim: who? 16:16:58 <stain> Zakim: who is on the call? 16:17:03 <ralphh> On the subject of temporal relationships, Allen defined 13 - I will post some references 16:17:20 <stain> q+ 16:17:25 <Zakim> -jun 16:17:26 <Zakim> -??P17 16:17:40 <Zakim> -??P22 16:17:42 <Zakim> - +1.518.633.aacc 16:17:44 <Zakim> -??P51 16:17:45 <ralphh> bye 16:17:49 <Zakim> - +1.216.368.aaff 16:17:53 <ralphh> quit 16:17:55 <Zakim> -pgroth 16:17:57 <Zakim> -Luc 16:17:57 <Zakim> -stain 16:18:09 <Zakim> -ralphh 16:18:26 <stain> I wanted to ask if there will be a videolink or webex from the f2f - or just telcon link 16:18:40 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public 16:18:45 <pgroth> telcon only 16:18:51 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes 16:18:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-prov-minutes.html Luc 16:18:59 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon 16:18:59 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees 16:18:59 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Luc, pgroth, +1.646.389.aaaa, +1.832.386.aabb, paolo, stain, SamCoppens, jorn, [ISI], +1.518.633.aacc, +1.650.386.aadd, jun, 16:19:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:19:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-prov-minutes.html trackbot 16:19:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye 16:19:01 <RRSAgent> I see no action items 16:19:02 <Zakim> ... +1.509.375.aaee, +1.216.368.aaff, +1.217.417.aagg # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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