Chatlog 2011-06-02

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<luc>Guest: Yolanda Gil
14:43:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:43:36 <RRSAgent> logging to
14:43:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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14:43:40 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
14:43:41 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:43:41 <trackbot> Date: 02 June 2011
14:43:54 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV
14:43:54 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
14:44:11 <Luc> Agenda:
14:44:19 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:44:26 <Luc> Scribe: Paolo Missier
14:44:36 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 
14:44:50 <Luc> Regrets: Paul Groth, Olaf Hartig, Eric Stephan
14:45:59 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:45:59 <trackbot> Date: 02 June 2011
14:52:07 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
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14:52:14 <Zakim> +luc
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14:55:44 <Zakim> +??P13
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14:55:58 <smiles> zakim, ??P13 is me
14:55:58 <Zakim> +smiles; got it
14:55:59 <Zakim> +frew
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14:58:09 <Zakim> +GK; got it
14:58:11 <Luc> Hi Stephen, welcome!
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14:59:42 <Zakim> +Yogesh
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15:04:59 <paolo> Topic: Admin
<luc>Summary: The last minutes were accepted; Tim's outstanding action was closed, because not crucial currently,   invited expert issues are still being resolved by the W3C, and all are again encouraged to sign up to be scribes for future meetings.
<luc>Subtopic: minutes
15:03:33 <frew> +1 minutes
15:03:34 <paolo> PROPOSED: accept minutes from previous conference call
15:03:36 <dgarijo> +1
15:03:37 <paolo> +1
15:03:39 <DavidSchaengold> +1
15:03:39 <tlebo> +1
15:03:39 <dcorsar> +1
15:03:40 <kai> +1
15:03:41 <Yogesh> +
15:03:44 <iker> +1
15:03:46 <Edoardo> +1
15:03:48 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
15:03:53 <jun> jun has joined #prov
15:03:59 <jorn> +1
15:03:59 <GK> abstain (was present but not in audio)
15:04:09 <zednik> +1
15:04:13 <Jmyers4> +1
15:04:22 <smiles> +1
15:04:32 <Zakim> +zednik
15:04:45 <paolo> Accepted: minutes 

15:04:59 <paolo> SubTopic: review of actions
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<luc>SubTopic: Invited Experts
15:05:58 <paolo> Luc: invited experts  -- not all experts on board yet
15:06:11 <satya> satya has joined #prov
15:06:15 <paolo> Luc: calling for help from Sandro but he's not responding
15:06:27 <paolo> Luc: apologies for delay in dealing with experts
15:06:45 <paolo> Topic: F2F1
<luc>Summary: Please sign up for F2F meeting in Boston (or indicate regrets or online participation) and be ready to contribute to and review documents on the wiki. The deadline to produce documents for review is a week before F2F1 (June 29th)
15:06:47 <Luc>
15:07:23 <paolo> Luc: please signal whether you can attend
15:07:40 <paolo> Luc: meeting objectives are set, docs will be produced and posted to the wiki
15:07:50 <dgarijo> I'll attend online to the f2f
15:08:23 <paolo> Luc: also indicate whether you will attend online
15:09:17 <smiles>
<luc>Topic: Launching Task Forces
<luc>Summary: Four definition contributors (Khalid, Jun, Satya and Paolo) have been identified for the Model TF. Two coordinators (Yogesh and Simon Miles) have been identified for the Provenance Access and Query TF.  And likewise, for the Connection Task Force (Eric S and Kai). Coordinators still need to be identified for the last TF.  All coordinators have been asked to produce a delivery plan to be discussed at next telcon (See ACTION-9 and ACTION-10).
15:09:21 <paolo> Luc: we invited people to sign up to Task forces, some have not yet done so
15:10:01 <paulo> paulo has joined #prov
15:10:18 <paolo> Luc: Model task force: Jun, Satya, Khalid, Paolo have started adding their definitions on the wiki
15:10:22 <Zakim> -DavidSchaengold
15:10:23 <paolo> Luc: others please contribute
15:10:41 <GK> q+ to ask what it means to be a member of a TF beyond being member of this WG
15:10:46 <paolo> Luc: provenance access and query TF: Yogesh, Simon Miles have agreed to be coordinators
15:11:09 <paolo> Luc: Connection TF: Eric Stephan, Kai coordinate
15:11:32 <paolo> Luc: Implementation TF: still looking for confirmed coordinators
15:11:37 <tlebo> are the coordinators listed someplace other than ?
15:12:21 <paolo> Graham: what does it mean to be a TF member wrt membership of group at large?
15:12:51 <paolo> Luc: TF membership involves active contributions + author/review docs
15:14:30 <paolo> Luc: roles and activities within a TF may vary, people can choose. This is to understand who the coordinators can expect to interact with
15:14:59 <paolo> Kai: need more contributors to the connection TF
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15:15:50 <paolo> Luc: TF3/4 -- possible model is: template to be produced by coordinators, contributors to fill in the template
15:16:28 <paolo> Luc: means that for these TF workload is expected to be very distributed
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15:17:32 <paolo> Luc: coordinators expected to propose a doc structure in the short term in view of the F2F. Outlines to be discussed in next week's telecon
<luc>  See ACTION-9 and ACTION-10
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15:18:21 <paolo> Yogesh: will work with Simon to get something ready for next week
15:19:02 <paolo> Luc: natural deadline is F2F meeting date, however one week review time would be good. This means end of June effective deadline
15:19:26 <paolo> Luc: actions will be created on each coordinator for doc outlines to be created
15:20:02 <jorn> already italized [sic] coords of TF3
15:20:15 <paolo> tlebo: are coordinators listed on the TF page?
15:20:24 <paolo> Luc: not yet, will do
15:21:17 <GK> @tlebo TF wiki page has space for coordinators:
15:21:22 <paolo> Topic: model task force
<luc>Summary: The strategy is to reach consensus on concept properties from email  and wiki discussions. Four proposals were put forward in the agenda. Three were discussed very constructively. We reached consensus on the first two. We were also converging towards consensus for the third proposal, but we run out of time. Actions were assigned to Satya, Kai and Jim (Action-6, Action-7,and Action-8) to formulate variants of the third proposal, to be debated by email and next week at the telcon.

15:22:02 <paolo> Luc: need provenance about the definitions that are added to wiki! :-)
15:23:19 <satya> satya has joined #prov
15:23:21 <paolo> Luc: at SW coordination teleconf: debate on Web architecture takes majority of time and resources W3C-wide. We need to have time bounds
15:24:13 <paolo> Luc: Luc and Paul identified few key points on which consensus is critically needed
15:24:47 <paolo> Luc: following 5 proposals identified in the agenda
15:25:38 <paolo> subtopic: proposal 1: discussions on provenance model and provenance in the Web architecture are best kept separate at this time
15:25:40 <Jmyers4> +1 - is the mapping to web arch part of the access task force? or still model?
15:26:21 <paolo> Luc: soliciting comments on this
15:27:02 <paolo> GK: concerned that we may end up with different views that may be hard to reconcile at a later time
15:27:33 <paolo> Luc: possibly so, but at least we will have made progress on both
15:27:55 <satya> I tend to agree with GK
15:28:21 <paolo> GK: sees common thread emerging
15:30:02 <paolo> jcheney: we many not need to resolve all divergences in the group, let's keep working with provisional definitions, try to be cohesive on each of the two threads separately
15:30:03 <GK> Agree with @jcheney's thrust - don't get hung up on perfect definitions, say something and make progress, review later
15:30:40 <paolo> Luc: separation of model/arch to continue only up to F2F, at which point we will reassess
15:31:27 <paolo> Luc: use of term "resource" not helpful in the context of the model
15:32:16 <paolo> Luc: first define concepts, worry about mapping of model onto Web arch later
15:33:09 <paolo> smiles: given this separation: def for resource is just "what is the subject of provenance"?
15:33:54 <paolo> Luc: term "resource" may not be adequate for the model on its own
15:33:57 <GK> Listening to this discussion: I would move to accept the proposal for now, but review in 2 weeks.
15:34:20 <stain> GK, yup, sounds like the resource discussion is on again.. :)
15:34:31 <GK> q+ to move to accept the proposal for now, but review in 2 weeks.
15:34:40 <dgarijo> +1 to what satya said
15:34:42 <paolo> satya: use journalism example to ground a concrete def. for resource, and then expand from there. Model and arch view may be reconciled more easily in the context of the example
15:35:18 <paolo> Luc: but, in practice issues have emerged recently precisely in the context of the example
15:35:39 <zednik> +1 for separation of concept model from mapping to web architecture (access)
15:36:09 <jorn> q+ to propose to rename "provenance resource" so it isn't confused with web resource all the time?
15:37:10 <paolo> Luc: not yet clear what we mean by "provenance of a resource". leads to "mutable thing" vs "immutable thing" debate 
15:37:44 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to move to accept the proposal for now, but review in 2 weeks.
15:37:46 <paolo> satya: propose to ask "what should be a resource" in the context of the journalism example
15:39:02 <paolo> GK: propose to accept proposal 1 with option to review in case a divergence is evident
15:40:04 <zednik> +1 for renaming resource
15:40:12 <paolo> jorn: term "resource" seems overloaded. so should also rename "resource" as part of this proposal
15:40:40 <Zakim> jorn, you wanted to propose to rename "provenance resource" so it isn't confused with web resource all the time?
15:40:47 <paolo> Luc: agree. need a good term to refer to "the thing that doesn't change"
15:41:05 <smiles> +1
15:41:07 <dgarijo> +1
15:41:13 <paolo> Luc: propose to accept proposal 1 and review it in 2 weeks
15:41:17 <dcorsar> +1
15:41:17 <GK> +1
15:41:18 <Edoardo> +1
15:41:18 <dgarijo> +1
15:41:21 <jun> +1
15:41:21 <stain> +1
15:41:21 <kai> +1
15:41:22 <Yogesh> +1
15:41:23 <Luc> proposed: to define provenance-related concepts independently of the web architecture in a first instance, and review it in two weeks
15:41:24 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
15:41:24 <zednik> +1
15:41:24 <iker> +1
15:41:27 <jcheney> +1
15:41:27 <Jmyers4> +1
15:41:28 <paolo> +1
15:41:28 <jorn> +1
15:41:32 <tlebo> +1
15:42:24 <Yogesh> +1 
15:43:32 <paolo> satya agrees with Luc's proposal in current subtopic
<luc>ACCEPTED: to define provenance-related concepts independently of the web architecture in a first instance, and review it in two weeks
15:43:51 <paolo> subtopic: proposal 2: the subject of provenance may be anything, whether physical, digital, or otherwise
15:44:40 <paolo> frew: if the model TF agreed with the OPM definitions at this time, would the TF be done?
15:45:37 <paolo> GK: not having been involved in OPM or other prior initiatives, my position is to avoid simply adopting one of those models
15:47:08 <paolo> Luc: with my co-chair tat off, I note that not all is good in OPM. So even coming from there, I do not think it should be adopted as is. Community will want to evolve the model anyways
15:47:38 <satya> agree 
15:47:43 <smiles> yes
15:47:49 <paolo> proposed: "the subject of provenance may be anything, whether physical, digital, or otherwise"
15:47:53 <jcheney> +1
15:47:54 <GK> +1
15:47:56 <zednik> +1
15:47:57 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
15:47:59 <stain> +1
15:48:02 <smiles> +1
15:48:04 <paolo>  the subject of provenance may be anything, whether physical, digital, or otherwise
15:48:04 <Luc> proposed: the subject of provenance may be anything, whether physical, digital, or otherwise
15:48:07 <dgarijo> +1
15:48:07 <Edoardo> +1
15:48:07 <dcorsar> +1
15:48:08 <satya> +1
15:48:08 <kai> +1
15:48:08 <Jmyers4> agent was a special case (like PML:source) to capture the idea of a resource that could participate in processes (along the lines of my emails and wiki entries) - agent just couldn't be an artifact if they are completely immutable
15:48:09 <jun> +1
15:48:10 <tlebo> +1
15:48:11 <jorn> +1
15:48:12 <Jmyers4> +1
15:48:13 <paolo> +1
15:48:15 <stain> +1
15:48:35 <YolandaGil> I wonder what category is "otherwise"
15:49:11 <Jmyers4> conceptual, logical
15:49:38 <GK> I wouldn't prohibit imaginary, conceptual at this time
15:49:45 <paolo> YolandaGil: is the subject of provenance anything that we can refer to?
15:50:35 <tlebo> anything to which one may want to refer.
15:50:53 <zednik> mutable?
15:50:56 <GK> Yes, point taken about "can refer to" - maybe the TF can tighten up the definition?
15:51:00 <paulo> in PML, we use the  identifiedThing concept (something that we can refer to)
15:51:03 <paolo> YolandaGil: then, correct as "physical, digital, conceptual, or otherwise"?
15:51:13 <Luc> proposed: the subject of provenance may be anything, whether physical, digital, conceptual or otherwise
15:51:16 <Jmyers4> +1
15:51:22 <GK> +1
15:51:23 <satya> +!
15:51:24 <Yogesh> +1
15:51:25 <kai> +1
15:51:25 <stain> +1
15:51:26 <Edoardo> +1
15:51:26 <tlebo> +100
15:51:26 <dcorsar> +1
15:51:28 <smiles> +1
15:51:29 <frew> +1
15:51:29 <dgarijo> +1
15:51:29 <jorn> +1
15:51:30 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
15:51:31 <jcheney> +1
15:51:31 <zednik> +1
15:51:33 <YolandaGil> +1
15:51:38 <jun> +1
15:52:04 <paolo> accepted: the subject of provenance may be anything, whether physical, digital, conceptual or otherwise
15:52:24 <paulo> if it is anything, can it be a thing that we cannot refer to?
15:52:47 <GK> q+ to say I think its fine to focus on immutable resources but not to arbitrarily exclude mutable ones
15:53:04 <paolo> Luc: mutability seems to get in the way. Provenance of immutable things is a low hanging fruit. A few people made proposals
15:53:15 <jorn> q+ to say we can't hinder people from issuing provenance about things which are mutable (web is a distributed system)
15:53:39 <paolo> subtopic:  proposal 3: "in a first instance, to define the necessary concepts that allow us to express the provenance of a thing that does not change"
15:54:12 <paolo> GK: fine to focus on immutable resources initially. but not make immutability an a priori requirement
15:54:26 <satya> +1 for GK's point
15:54:56 <paolo> satya: what do we mean by immutable things?
15:55:36 <GK> @satya Good question: it's kind of why I don't want to exclude the mutable.
15:56:35 <paolo> satya: use journalism example and understand what is required regardless of mutable/immutable
15:56:45 <GK> @satya, agree, focus on what's required
15:57:28 <paolo> Jmyers4: mutability leads to a number of special cases
15:57:37 <Zakim> jorn, you wanted to say we can't hinder people from issuing provenance about things which are mutable (web is a distributed system)
15:58:57 <tlebo> is there anything that is universally immutable? Roles seems to be a good approach.
15:59:19 <satya> good point @jorn (good point on owl:sameAs)
15:59:39 <paolo> jorn: if we restrict certain things to be immutable, that may be an artificial constraint that may not work for whoever uses the model
15:59:44 <Jmyers4> I don't know how to explain except in the context of my proposed 'solution' - mutability is a role of a resource w.r.t. a process - if that's a good model, I don't see how we could discuss immutability first and then change the definition of resource in some way to address mutability
16:00:14 <tlebo> must go. apologies.
16:01:40 <GK> I think everyone is basically agreeing... focus on the case of immutable resource example, but don't assume immutability unless we really have to
16:02:50 <paolo> smiles: immutability may not be the issue
16:03:49 <GK> @smiles like your phrasing "insofar as it's immutable we can talk about its provenance"
16:04:19 <paolo> khalidbelhajjame: if we tackle mutability at a later time, that may lead to revisiting many other definitions
16:04:37 <Jmyers4> if the question is whether we should have a way other than resources to describe changes in state - +1 - there's a role for mutable resources but we don't need a mechanism to define state changes of mutable resources separt from defining immutable resources that encapsulate that state (but are just resources) 
16:05:31 <paolo> paolo: isn't that the case that things that do not change only have a provenance if they have changed in the past? I am confused
16:05:43 <frew> "WORM" resource?
16:05:52 <satya> I think we need more discussion - over mailing list?
16:05:55 <GK> Agree in principle with wjhat we discussed
16:05:59 <paolo> Luc: is there a consensus? 
16:06:09 <Jmyers4> -1 - I'd like to discuss things together...
16:06:17 <jcheney> what's the formal proposal now?
16:07:04 <satya> Proposal: we do not make assumption about mutability/immutability of object
16:07:19 <zednik> +q statement about mutability
16:07:37 <kai> I think we have too many mutable resources out there so I would try to deal with them from the beginning.
16:07:45 <paolo> satya: a few things not clear, but we can go with mutability/immutability in the context of the running example
16:08:25 <GK> @satya broadly agree with "Proposal: we do not make assumption about mutability/immutability of object" but would add "unless the use-case requires us to"
16:08:59 <paolo> Jmyers4: the distinction is significant in the context of (relative to) processes. possibly this pov gives us a way forward in the discussion
16:09:00 <Luc> would it help if we said state of a thing
16:09:12 <Luc> instead of a thing that does not change
16:09:12 <dgarijo> even the example has "mutable things", so it will be difficult to leave them out of the discussion
16:09:16 <satya> @GK agree, if required for use case
16:10:32 <paolo> action: Jmyers4, satya to formulate proposals that we can vote on next week
16:10:34 <Jmyers4> I put a 'definition' of resource on the wiki page just before the call - that's my proposal for a model
16:10:54 <Jmyers4> Perhaps I could try to apply that to the use case to make it clearer...
16:11:28 <jorn> subject ?
16:11:34 <satya> entity?
16:11:37 <zednik> entity
16:11:42 <paolo> Luc: term "resource" not useful here as too loaded as architectural term
16:11:43 <kai> +1 for entity
16:11:51 <GK> "Subject of provenance" (Luc's phrase from an earlier proposal)?
16:12:26 <paolo> +1 for "Subject of provenance" (SoP)
16:12:46 <dgarijo> +1 for Subject of Provenance
16:13:10 <paolo> paulo: makes connection b/w mut/immut and physical/digital
16:14:59 <paolo> paulo: other topic to discuss is how to refer to things, either mutable or immutable
16:15:07 <paolo> Luc: true, but not current topic
16:15:09 <stain> mutability is very related to identifiable - depending on how you identify it might be mutable or immutable
16:15:39 <kai> Maybe it would be doable to restrict provenance to immutable subjects and provide ways to see mutable subjects as immutable, e.g. by adding a version or a timestamp.
<luc> ACTION-6, ACTION-7, ACTION-8 to Kai, Jim and Satya, respectively 
16:15:55 <paolo> Luc: reminder - provXG summary presentation by Yolanda tomorrow
16:16:23 <stain> I am wondering if some kind of "observation" is needed