Chatlog 2011-05-26

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14:42:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:42:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-prov-irc
14:42:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:42:50 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
<luc>Guest: Yolanda Gil
14:42:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
14:42:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:42:53 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:42:53 <trackbot> Date: 26 May 2011
14:43:20 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 
14:43:20 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
14:44:00 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.26
14:44:13 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:44:19 <Luc> Scribe: Timothy Lebo
14:44:34 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 
14:46:03 <Luc> Regrets: Olaf Hartig, Iker Huerga, Simon Dobson
14:50:12 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:50:19 <Zakim> +??P0
14:50:44 <Luc> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:50:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0
14:50:57 <Luc> zakim, ??P0 is me
14:50:57 <Zakim> +Luc; got it
14:51:14 <GK> GK has joined #prov
14:51:27 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov
14:51:30 <Luc> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:51:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc
14:52:07 <Zakim> +??P3
14:52:27 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P3 is me
14:52:27 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
14:53:22 <Luc> zakim, who is here?
14:53:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc, pgroth
14:53:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see pgroth, GK, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, martin, jorn, sandro, trackbot
14:53:33 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
14:53:51 <frew> frew has joined #prov
14:54:00 <paolo> paolo has joined #prov
14:54:06 <Zakim> +??P12
14:54:33 <smiles> zakim, ??P12 is me
14:54:33 <Zakim> +smiles; got it
14:54:40 <GK> My VOIP software client license has expired ... I thought it was free for basic use ... will take me a while here to get something sorted.
14:56:01 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aaaa
14:56:22 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
14:56:55 <Luc> hi tim
14:57:25 <tlebo> scribe: tlebo
14:57:30 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
14:57:32 <Zakim> +frew
14:58:24 <Luc> zakim, who is here?
14:58:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc, pgroth, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, frew
14:58:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see dgarijo, tlebo, paolo, frew, smiles, pgroth, GK, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, martin, jorn, sandro, trackbot
14:58:55 <tlebo> Zakim, aaaa is tlebo
14:58:55 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it
14:59:15 <jun> jun has joined #prov
14:59:35 <Zakim> +??P33
14:59:37 <Zakim> +??P37
14:59:49 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
14:59:54 <paolo> hallo, has the passcode changed by any chance?
15:00:02 <Luc> no, still same
15:00:07 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P33 is me
15:00:07 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
15:00:12 <Luc> i had to try several times
15:00:13 <paolo> doesn't take it.
15:00:16 <Zakim> +??P27
15:00:17 <paolo> will try again
15:00:21 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov
15:00:24 <Zakim> +SatyaSahoo
15:00:26 <dgarijo> i had to try twice too
15:00:30 <jorn> Zakim: ??p37 is me
15:00:34 <Zakim> +??P10
15:00:37 <jun> zakim, ??p27 is me
15:00:37 <Zakim> +jun; got it
15:00:46 <satya> satya has joined #prov
15:00:46 <jorn> Zakim, ??p37 is me
15:00:46 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:00:51 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P10 is really me
15:00:51 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
15:00:51 <Edoardo> Edoardo has joined #prov
15:00:52 <Luc> zakim, who is here?
15:00:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc, pgroth, smiles, tlebo, frew, jorn, dgarijo, jun, SatyaSahoo, khalidbelhajjame
15:00:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see Edoardo, satya, SamCoppens, khalidbelhajjame, jun, dgarijo, tlebo, paolo, frew, smiles, pgroth, GK, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, martin, jorn, sandro, trackbot
15:01:19 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
15:01:29 <VinhNguyen> VinhNguyen has joined #prov
15:01:40 <tlebo> scribe is a newbie, please help me identify the speaker during the discussions.
15:01:56 <paolo> UK number busy and US number won't take my pin.
15:02:06 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
15:02:24 <Christine> Christine has joined #prov
15:02:25 <Zakim> +??P49
15:02:35 <Zakim> +VinhNguyen
15:02:37 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P49 is really me
15:02:37 <tlebo> luc: Agenda items: 1) administrative issues, 2) presentation from incubator, 3) web arch., 4) "Resource"
15:02:41 <Zakim> +Yolanda
15:02:47 <Zakim> +??P55
<luc>TOPIC: Admin 
<luc>Summary: The last minutes were accepted, an action is still outstanding, invited expert issues are still being resolved by the W3C, and all are again encouraged to sign up to be scribes for future meetings.
<luc>Subtopic: minutes
15:02:55 <tlebo> luc: admin issues - approve minutes from last week.
15:03:03 <tlebo> proposed: accept minutes
15:02:55 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
15:02:59 <Zakim> + +1.213.290.aabb
15:02:59 <dgarijo> +1
15:03:01 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
15:03:01 <satya> +1
15:03:03 <smiles> +1
15:03:04 <frew> +1
15:03:07 <jorn> +1
15:03:09 <tlebo> +1
15:03:10 <pgroth> +1
15:03:10 <jun> +1
15:03:11 <Edoardo> +1
15:03:11 <Yogesh> Yogesh has joined #prov
15:03:28 <tlebo> resolved: minutes
15:03:51 <tlebo> mapping callers to irc IDs - please tell zakim who you are.
15:04:05 <Edoardo> we might be ??P55
15:04:16 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:04:20 <Zakim> +zednik
15:04:23 <jorn> Zakim, ??p55 may be Edoardo 
15:04:34 <stain> stain has joined #prov
15:04:49 <Christine> I am probably [IP caller]
15:04:56 <tlebo> subtopic: Action review
15:04:56 <tlebo> Multiple sources in Journalism Example
15:04:56 <tlebo> tlebo: will propose as we develop the concept definitions from the example.
15:05:04 <Zakim> + +30281039aacc
15:05:09 <tlebo> subtopic: invited experts
15:05:30 <paulo> paulo has joined #prov
15:05:33 <tlebo> Satya's status still has not changed, prov-wg chairs have no insight into the w3c invited expert process.
15:05:37 <Zakim> +Edoardo; got it
15:05:41 <Zakim> +??P9
15:05:47 <tlebo> action: luc to ask w3 about invited experts.
15:05:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-5 - Ask w3 about invited experts. [on Luc Moreau - due 2011-06-02].
15:06:06 <tlebo> issue: someone please sign up to scribe next week.
15:06:09 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-18 - Someone please sign up to scribe next week. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/18/edit .
15:06:14 <CarlOGC> CarlOGC has joined #prov
15:06:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:06:31 <Zakim> +??P28
15:06:33 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
15:06:37 <Yogesh> zakim, who is on the call?
15:06:38 <tlebo> luc: participation to discussion. we need others to participate.
15:06:58 <paolo> for the record: I am also requesting an update on how to participate while member status is pending. thaks
15:07:04 <Zakim> + +1.915.747.aadd
15:07:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc, pgroth, smiles, tlebo, frew, jorn, dgarijo, jun, SatyaSahoo, khalidbelhajjame, VinhNguyen, Yolanda, Edoardo, +1.213.290.aabb, [IPcaller], zednik,
15:07:09 <Zakim> ... +30281039aacc, ??P9, ??P28, [IPcaller.a], +1.915.747.aadd (muted)
15:07:09 <paulo_> paulo_ has joined #prov
15:07:22 <frew> +1
15:07:24 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 for Yolanda idea
15:07:25 <tlebo> topic: XG Results
15:07:25 <tlebo> luc: is there interest in presentation of XG results to educate group membership ?
15:07:27 <satya> +1 for presentation
15:07:30 <paulo_> +1
15:07:31 <tlebo> +1
15:07:33 <jorn> +1
15:07:34 <Yogesh> +1
15:07:34 <dgarijo> +1
15:07:35 <jcheney> +1
15:07:35 <Edoardo> +1
15:07:41 <paolo> +1
15:07:42 <Zakim> +??P42
15:07:43 <CarlOGC> +1
15:07:51 <jcheney> Zakim, ??P42 is me
15:07:56 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
15:08:11 <Christine> A refresher would be useful. Having missed the first couple of meetings of this, I am still trying to get up to speed.
15:08:13 <pgroth> zakim, who is noisy?
15:08:13 <dgarijo> Zakim, who is making noise?
15:08:23 <Zakim> pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luc (84%), +1.213.290.aabb (30%), khalidbelhajjame (19%)
15:08:25 <tlebo> yolanda will present; but what time?
15:08:34 <Zakim> dgarijo, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luc (79%), +1.213.290.aabb (73%)
15:08:38 <jorn> Zakim, please mute aabb
15:08:38 <Zakim> +1.213.290.aabb should now be muted
15:08:41 <paolo> 16
15:08:55 <paolo> 4pm UK 
15:09:11 <Christine> Ok for me
15:09:12 <tlebo> Monday, 8am Pacific time, 5pm France time
15:09:13 <tlebo> +1
15:09:18 <frew> mon 31 may is a holiday in the us
15:09:22 <dgarijo> i won't be able to make it on monday :(
15:09:26 <khalidbelhajjame> Monday is a bank holiday in the UK
15:09:39 <frew> oops I meant mon 30 may
15:09:50 <tlebo> Tuesday 8am Pacific time
15:09:51 <tlebo> +1
15:09:53 <jcheney> I will be away both days
15:09:54 <paulo_> +1 (Tues)
15:09:56 <Christine> Should be okay
15:09:58 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 for tuesday
15:09:59 <Yogesh> +1
15:10:00 <frew> -1 (conflict)
15:10:03 <jorn> +1 (both ok)
15:10:03 <paolo> I can make it
15:10:10 <smiles> +1
15:10:15 <satya> +1
15:10:23 <Edoardo> +1
15:10:37 <Yogesh> zakim, +1.213.290 is me
15:10:37 <Zakim> +Yogesh; got it
15:10:38 <tlebo> -1 Thursday
15:10:39 <zednik> -1 for Tuesday
15:10:42 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 for thursday
15:10:42 <dgarijo> +1 for thursday
15:10:46 <frew> +1 thu
15:10:47 <paolo> -1 for Thu
15:10:49 <jorn> +1 thursday
15:10:50 <Zakim> +??P4
15:10:53 <Edoardo> -1 Thursday
15:10:54 <jcheney> +1
15:10:57 <satya> -1 for thursday (conflict)
15:10:58 <smiles> +1 thursday
15:10:59 <paulo> -1 (Thurs) conflict
15:11:03 <Christine> Thursday is a holiday in Switzerland
15:11:06 <Yogesh> +1
15:11:28 <tlebo> +1
15:11:30 <paolo> +1 for Fri
15:11:31 <satya> +1 friday
15:11:32 <frew> +1 Fri
15:11:33 <paulo> +1 (Fri)
15:11:34 <dgarijo> +1 for friday
15:11:36 <jcheney> +1 Fri
15:11:36 <Yogesh> +1
15:11:38 <zednik> +1 Fri
15:11:39 <Edoardo> +1 Fri
15:11:42 <khalidbelhajjame> -1 fri
15:11:43 <Christine> - 1 Friday (conflict)
15:11:46 <stain> +1 friday
15:11:58 <smiles> -1 friday (but i don't need to attend)
15:12:03 <pgroth> q+
15:12:23 <Luc> ack pgroth
15:12:52 <jcheney> yes, more important for people who weren't there
15:12:54 <dgarijo> +1 to what paul said
15:12:58 <frew> +1 paul
15:13:00 <pgroth> friday?
15:13:27 <tlebo> +1 friday
15:13:28 <satya> +1
15:13:34 <dgarijo> +1
15:13:36 <Yogesh> +1
15:13:37 <paolo> q+
15:13:37 <jorn> +1
15:13:48 <VinhNguyen> +1
15:13:48 <Luc> ack paolo
15:14:01 <Zakim> -??P9
15:14:09 <pgroth> friday looks good
15:14:17 <tlebo> pmissier: the slides can be viewed offline
15:14:32 <Zakim> +??P6
15:14:35 <dgarijo> if I don't remember wrong, the slides are already available, aren't they?
15:14:41 <Zakim> -jorn
15:14:44 <dgarijo> Yolanda made a presentation already...
15:15:20 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/File:Provenance-XG-Overview.pdf
15:15:49 <dgarijo> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/File:Provenance-XG-Overview.pdf
15:15:58 <dgarijo> late , sorry.
15:14:56 <tlebo> resolved: extra call  next week 8am Friday for Yolanda to review incubator group.
<luc>Summary: Yolanda kindly suggested to run an extra session to present XG results to the WG. Extra call will take place on Friday June 3, 8am Pacific time, 5pm Paris.
15:15:01 <Zakim> +??P37
15:15:02 <SamCoppens> zakim, ??P6 is me
15:15:03 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it
15:15:11 <tlebo> topic: Access and Query Task Force
<luc> Summary: It is was agreed to continue discussion on the mailing list and wiki
15:15:14 <jorn> Zakim, ??p37 is me
15:15:14 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:15:34 <tlebo> last week: used section 6 and put on wiki for editing.
15:16:07 <tlebo> graham is not online, olaf also not (both were key participants on email)
15:16:15 <Luc> q?
15:16:33 <tlebo> luc: we should continue discussion on mailing list; we also should edit the wiki.
15:16:44 <paolo> GK had the same problem
15:16:47 <paolo> persist...
15:16:48 <Luc> q?
15:16:50 <pgroth> GK it should be ok
15:16:50 <tlebo> +1 mailing list and wiki continuing 
15:16:57 <pgroth> did you dial into the us number
15:16:58 <pgroth> ?
15:17:05 <smiles> q+
15:17:10 <Luc> ack smiles
15:17:24 <tlebo> smiles: good idea, plan for editing wiki page?
15:17:36 <tlebo> how to deal with diverging views? everyone edit?
15:17:44 <Zakim> -pgroth
15:18:05 <tlebo> graham discussed scope - wiki needs to define scope but does not
15:18:15 <tlebo> luc: we should discuss on mailing list and follow up on wiki with results.
15:18:24 <tlebo> luc: making new pages, commenting - everyone is free to do so.
15:18:24 <Luc> q?
15:19:00 <pgroth_> pgroth_ has joined #prov
15:19:01 <Luc> q?
15:19:08 <tlebo> luc: remember for f2f, we need proposal and issues against that proposal (for PAQ TF)
15:19:08 <tlebo> luc: tabling topic because Graham and Olaf are absent 
15:19:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]
15:19:35 <tlebo> topic: Charter concept - "Resource"
<luc>Summary: We had an open discussion on the concept of resources. Lots of good points were made that had not been expressed on the mailing list or wiki. Group members are invited to write them down so that we can reflect on them.
15:19:38 <pgroth_> Zakim, +[IPcaller�.aa] is me
15:19:38 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth_, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller�.aa]'
15:20:24 <Luc> q?
15:20:28 <tlebo> luc: additional ideas for "Resource"
15:20:31 <dgarijo> +q
15:20:32 <Luc> q?
15:20:42 <Luc> ack dgarijo
15:21:35 <Luc> q?
15:21:43 <tlebo> dgarijo: jun pointed out Resource concept should be broader. We should keep narrower definition of "Resource".
15:21:55 <tlebo> 'Web resource"
15:21:57 <martin> +q
15:22:24 <Luc> ack martin
15:22:41 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.aa]
15:22:42 <tlebo> martin: resources are digital (e.g. web resource)
15:22:51 <tlebo> -1 for scoping the Resource to digital items.
15:22:53 <smiles> q+
15:22:56 <satya> It may also be non-digital resource also
15:23:02 <paulo_> q+
15:23:03 <zednik> -1 for treating resources as web resources
15:23:08 <pgroth_> pgroth_ has joined #prov
15:23:36 <tlebo> martin: Resource State is not clearly defined for digital object; it does not have linear sequence of states; it has versions and derivatives.
15:23:49 <Zakim> +??P57
15:24:10 <pgroth> +q
15:24:16 <martin> q?
15:24:40 <tlebo> RDF working group, "Resource" is conceptual.
15:24:45 <Luc> q?
15:25:10 <tlebo> Ppinheir2: [poor voice connection]
15:25:20 <Luc> ack paulo_
15:25:23 <tlebo> Ppinheir2: do we need an additional definition of resource?
15:25:40 <Luc> ack smiles
15:25:48 <Luc> q?
15:26:03 <jcheney> +q
15:26:16 <martin> q?
15:26:30 <tlebo> smiles: agree with paulo_ that we should define what we need from "Resource"
15:26:38 <jun> -1 scoping our focus to digital objects
15:26:47 <pgroth> agree with jun
15:27:00 <Luc> q?
15:27:08 <martin> q?
15:27:13 <tlebo> smiles: not good idea to restrict to web resources/ digital resources. derivation: provenance is part of provenance of another. we want to say a digital artifact is the result of a physical process / object.
15:27:15 <Luc> ack pgroth
15:27:24 <Luc> q?
15:27:58 <satya> q+
15:28:00 <tlebo> pgroth: we need to fit with web architecture, which has limits. should our Resource be a broader notion of web's Resource?
15:28:00 <Luc> ack jcheney
15:28:15 <martin> i agree with tlebo
15:28:53 <Luc> q?
15:29:04 <martin> q?
15:29:15 <pgroth> interesting idea
15:29:30 <tlebo> jcheney: what are the consequences of fixing a definition? we can then say what is or what isn't. we should focus on what we NEED to assume about the concepts rather than mapping them all out.
15:29:38 <pgroth> more of a extensional definition
15:30:02 <Luc> q?
15:30:05 <tlebo> jcheney: list has been saying "we don't care what a Resource is as long as it has a URI"
15:30:14 <martin> this is problematic
15:30:24 <satya> I agree - if we need to describe provenance of something - that is a resource
15:30:25 <Zakim> -jorn
15:30:39 <Luc> ack satya
15:30:40 <satya> so a necessary condition rather than sufficient
15:30:47 <Luc> q?
15:30:52 <jun> q+
15:30:55 <Zakim> +??P37
15:31:07 <jorn> Zakim, ??p37 is me
15:31:07 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:31:14 <Luc> q?
15:31:19 <tlebo> satya: an entity of interest to describe provenance - it is a Resource. we are not limiting ourselves with this kind of def.
15:31:33 <pgroth> q+
15:31:42 <pgroth> q+ to respond to satya
15:31:54 <tlebo> satya: regarding compatible with web arch being restricting - what is web architecture, and why be compatible with it?
15:31:56 <martin> q?
15:32:02 <Zakim> -Edoardo
15:32:19 <Luc> can someone paste the link to the web architecture document?
15:32:20 <tlebo> pgroth: web architecture definitions "Resource" in web context means something particular.
15:32:30 <GK> <cough> *WHY BE COMPATIBLE WITH WEB ARCHITECTURE"?  This is a w3C WG.
15:32:38 <jcheney> web architecture == http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/ ?
15:32:42 <Luc> q?
15:32:58 <Zakim> +??P55
15:32:59 <pgroth> ack pgroth
15:32:59 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to respond to satya
15:33:05 <tlebo> pgroth: we should ensure our terms are compatible with web architecture, and if we reuse the terms with different definitions, we need to be clear about it.
15:33:34 <zednik> conceptual model != architecture
15:33:34 <tlebo> satya: what is compatible in web architecture is evolving (e.g. UniProt's RDF wasn't available years ago).
15:33:35 <pgroth> but that's not our remit
15:33:44 <Luc> q?
15:33:48 <Edoardo> Zakim, I am  ??P55
15:33:49 <Zakim> +Edoardo; got it
15:33:49 <Luc> ack jun
15:34:14 <tlebo> just becuase it didn't have a resolvable URI on the web, doesn't mean it's not already a resource (w.r.t the Uniprot's genes, etc)
15:34:31 <khalidbelhajjame> +q
15:34:31 <Luc> q?
15:34:42 <martin> ack jun
15:35:25 <martin> q+
15:35:26 <zednik> +q
15:35:28 <Luc> q?
15:35:31 <tlebo> jun: just be clear about our terms vs. web architecture's term - we just need a placeholder
15:35:34 <paulo_> q+
15:35:50 <pgroth> we can introduce terms
15:35:54 <jcheney> AWWW sec. 2.2 says: "We do not limit the scope of what might be a resource."
15:36:00 <jun> q-
15:36:03 <Luc> ack 
15:36:04 <tlebo> +1 on not continuing Resource discussion - w3 gave us this already.
15:36:07 <Luc> q?
15:36:14 <Luc> ack khalidbelhajjame
15:36:16 <stain> +1 
15:37:01 <Luc> ack martin
15:37:02 <tlebo> khalad... : resource state, resource state representation - what do we refer to when we describe provenance - THIS is more helpful. NOT "Resource"
15:37:31 <Luc> q?
15:37:43 <satya> +1 for khalid's point
15:38:14 <tlebo> martin: we need to distinguish among Resource. information objects behave differently than physical objects. Definition should not be so wide that we don't know what we're talking about. It should be enough to distinguish between physical and digital resource.
15:38:28 <Luc> ack zednik
15:38:49 <pgroth> but then we then need to use different terms
15:38:50 <smiles> +1 for Stephan's point
15:38:58 <Luc> ack paulo_
15:38:59 <martin> +1
15:39:00 <tlebo> zednik: conceptual model of provenance might not be the place for Web arch's Resource.
15:39:03 <zednik> q-
15:39:35 <Luc> q?
15:39:43 <martin> -1
15:39:52 <pgroth> paulo_ PML uses IdentifiedThing
15:39:57 <Zakim> -Yogesh
15:40:06 <GK> @zednik - maybe so, but to do need to know where it touches web resource
15:40:10 <pgroth> +q
15:40:13 <tlebo> paulo_: provenance is in the digital world but is about things in physical world. scientific processes inherently span these.
15:40:17 <Luc> ack pgroth
15:40:21 <pgroth> +q
15:40:35 <Luc> ack pgroth
15:40:42 <tlebo> In the web arch, doesn't 303 redirection handle the digital/physical distinction?
15:40:55 <martin> digital objects can be at different places at the same time. that makes a big diff to physical things
15:41:05 <YolandaGil> YolandaGil has joined #prov
15:41:13 <YolandaGil> q?
15:41:16 <Luc> q?
15:41:19 <tlebo> digital objects CANNOT be in different places at the same time. cf FRBR.
15:41:20 <YolandaGil> q+
15:41:33 <Lena> Lena has joined #prov
15:41:40 <Luc> q?
15:41:42 <tlebo> pgroth: term Resource in web arch is aligned with what we are talking about.
15:41:44 <jun> +1 pgroth, web architecture allows to make a broad statement about resource
15:41:52 <Luc> ack YolandaGil
15:43:11 <stain> +1 for yolanda's point of timestamp
15:43:11 <Luc> q?
15:43:51 <tlebo> YolandaGil: Resource is the hardest to define of the 17. list concepts that are fundamentally different. accessing a UR_L_ at different times returns different digital objects. Let's establish the base of terms we need to discuss (e.g. 7/17)
15:43:55 <Luc> q?
15:44:46 <tlebo> luc: take this to the mailing list (!)
15:44:51 <martin> +1
15:45:01 <zednik> +1
15:45:04 <smiles> +1
15:45:07 <dgarijo> +1
15:45:07 <jcheney> +1
15:45:10 <tlebo> +1
15:45:10 <paulo_> +1
15:45:13 <Edoardo> +1
15:45:15 <martin> q+
15:45:16 <SamCoppens> +1
15:45:23 <jun> +1
15:45:34 <smiles> OK :)
15:45:42 <Edoardo> Yes 
15:45:43 <tlebo> luc: +1s are on the hook for mailing the list
15:45:43 <GK> I kinda agree with what Yolanda said ... if we leave "resource" wide open, and look at the things we need to express, if a need emerges to say something more specific we'll have a better idea what that is.
15:45:55 <GK> +1 to mailing list :)
15:46:01 <tlebo> [] < who
15:46:03 <Luc> q?
15:46:04 <GK> Hooked!
15:46:16 <jun> I think Yolanda just said what I wanted to say in a much better way :)
15:46:21 <Zakim> -jorn
15:46:47 <martin> q+
15:46:52 <Zakim> +??P14
15:46:53 <tlebo> group agrees that the relationships among the terms can reinforce the terms definitions.
15:47:08 <jorn> Zakim, ??p14 is me
15:47:08 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
15:47:20 <Luc> q?
15:47:53 <Luc> ack martin
15:48:15 <tlebo> martin: e.g. file downloaded from web. at the moment on the server. is it the content of the disk (whcih can be destroyed) or is it the sum of all copies. if you change one copy, how does it affect the rest of it.
15:48:16 <paulo_> q+
15:48:31 <tlebo> martin: physical - changing it is permanent. and thus linear
15:48:59 <Luc> ack paulo_
15:49:16 <tlebo> luc: we extract notions of Resource from these examples (per Yolanda)
15:49:38 <pgroth> hmmm.... I thought IdentifiedThing == Resource
15:49:40 <pgroth> in PML
15:50:14 <martin> +1
15:50:16 <GK> @martin, difficult to fully understand your point from the IRC log, but I'd say each instance (or item in FRBR terms) is a separate "resource" for provenance purposes.
15:50:23 <tlebo> paulo_: break apart "file" with some properties like where it is located, vs. it is also a "Content container" - need to distinguish content from container.
15:50:41 <martin> @GK sure
15:51:03 <Luc> q?
15:51:04 <tlebo> paulo_: FRBR's work, expression, manifestation, and item
15:51:35 <pgroth> +q
15:51:39 <dgarijo> a version wouldn't be a state representation of a resource?
15:51:39 <Luc> q?
15:51:43 <tlebo> paulo_: version is another term related to Resource. Resource cannot be monolithic.
15:51:53 <martin> @tlebo item is the physical level
15:52:00 <Luc> ack pgroth
15:52:22 <tlebo> @martin agreed on physicality of items.
15:52:29 <martin> +1
15:52:40 <satya> @GK: instances may also not be separate resources for provenance purposes - E.g. provenance of all instances of class "human" involves "date of birth"
15:52:43 <Luc> q?
15:52:50 <zednik> Web Resource State = FRBR Expression
15:52:50 <tlebo> pgroth: we can be guided by charter, but are not constrained by it.
15:53:11 <zednik> Web Resource State Representation == FRBR Manifestation?
15:53:28 <martin> @satya categorical descriptions are even more fuzzy.
15:53:33 <Luc> q?
15:54:14 <tlebo> paulo_: parts of process hidden that might come up later? e.g. versioning, physical copies.
15:54:26 <GK> @satya Not quite sure your point.  Agree that instances may be related, maybe share provenenace.  But don't see that means we need to treat every "resource" as complex, stateful thing. 
15:54:28 <martin> q+
15:54:36 <Luc> ack martin
15:55:02 <satya> @martin by categorical description you mean (ontology) class?
15:55:27 <Luc> q?
15:55:33 <tlebo> martin: museum and ontology for FRBR world. distinction of material object and conceptual level (e.g. Work) - no more than 2(?)
15:55:37 <smiles> q+
15:55:44 <Luc> ack smiles
15:55:51 <tlebo> @martin - did you intend to say only 2 levels?
15:56:05 <martin> @satya I mean how a set of items behaves collectively
15:56:21 <YolandaGil> Luc, Paul: Sorry I was not on the IRC before: I can definitely do the Provenance Incubator presentation next Friday at 8am PDT
15:56:25 <tlebo> smiles: mutable things vs immutable things. replicable things vs. unique things. (digital resource copied)
15:56:28 <satya> @gk I agree - how we treat "resource" is mostly driven by requirements of the application in question
15:56:35 <zednik> @martin - FRBR recognizes 4 distinct levels of entities - 3 are conceptual
15:56:39 <Luc> q?
15:56:48 <pgroth> Thanks Yolanda!
15:57:10 <martin> @zednik discuss by e-mail...
15:57:28 <tlebo> luc: lots of good ideas and points, they need to be expanded on mailing list and wiki to be discussed properly.
15:57:38 <tlebo> luc: please post to mailing list or wiki.
15:57:41 <Luc> q?
15:58:06 <satya> @martin ok - behavior of set of items can also be used to group together items?
15:58:12 <tlebo> Yolanda next Friday 8am PDT
15:58:12 <GK> I think FRBR is like ISO 7-layer model.  Useful as a way of teasing apart concepts, but not every case where some of the concepts apply neatly divides into all named levels. 
15:58:17 <tlebo> bye bye!
15:58:18 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
15:58:19 <Zakim> -SatyaSahoo
15:58:19 <Zakim> -smiles
15:58:20 <Zakim> - +1.915.747.aadd
15:58:20 <Zakim> -frew
15:58:20 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
15:58:21 <paolo> paolo has left #prov
15:58:23 <Zakim> -jorn
15:58:24 <Zakim> -jun
15:58:26 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:58:28 <Zakim> -??P57
15:58:30 <Zakim> -??P28
15:58:35 <Zakim> -Yolanda
15:58:37 <Zakim> -jcheney
15:58:39 <Zakim> -dgarijo
15:58:40 <Zakim> -Luc
15:58:42 <Zakim> -zednik
15:58:43 <stain> btw - how do you get a name with Zakim?
15:58:44 <Zakim> -??P4
15:58:47 <Zakim> - +30281039aacc
15:58:47 <GK> Bye.  I'll try and get my VOIP client sorted for next time.
15:58:49 <Zakim> -SamCoppens
15:58:53 <Zakim> -Edoardo
15:58:57 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public
15:58:59 <Zakim> -tlebo
15:59:10 <stain> GK, used Blink today (first time) - all right
15:59:18 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:59:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-prov-minutes.html Luc
15:59:36 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon
15:59:36 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:59:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Luc, pgroth, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, frew, tlebo, dgarijo, SatyaSahoo, jun, jorn, khalidbelhajjame, VinhNguyen, Yolanda, +1.213.290.aabb,
15:59:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:59:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-prov-minutes.html trackbot
15:59:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:59:38 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-prov-actions.rdf :
15:59:38 <RRSAgent> ACTION: luc to ask w3 about invited experts. [1]
15:59:38 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/26-prov-irc#T15-05-47
15:59:40 <Zakim> ... [IPcaller], zednik, +30281039aacc, +1.915.747.aadd, jcheney, Yogesh, SamCoppens, Edoardo
15:59:42 <GK> @stain, that on Mac?
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