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Chatlog 2011-05-19
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14:45:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov 14:45:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-irc 14:45:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:45:04 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov 14:45:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 14:45:06 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 14:45:07 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 14:45:07 <trackbot> Date: 19 May 2011 14:45:17 <luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 14:45:17 <Zakim> ok, luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes 14:45:40 <luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.19 14:45:55 <luc> Chair: Paul Groth 14:46:08 <luc> Scribe: smiles 14:46:22 <luc> rrsagent, make logs public 14:47:38 <luc> Regrets: Kai Eckert 14:51:15 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started 14:51:17 <Zakim> +??P12 14:51:28 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P12 is pgroth 14:51:28 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it 14:51:37 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the phone? 14:51:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth 14:52:45 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov 14:52:45 <Zakim> +luc 14:52:47 <Zakim> -luc 14:52:47 <Zakim> +luc 14:53:42 <Zakim> +??P21 14:53:55 <smiles> zakim, ??P21 is me 14:53:55 <Zakim> +smiles; got it 14:54:36 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov 14:54:55 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov 14:55:21 <simoninireland> simoninireland has joined #prov 14:57:20 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aaaa 14:57:39 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov 14:57:50 <Zakim> +??P22 14:58:06 <Zakim> +DavidSchaengold 14:58:08 <Christine> Christine has joined #prov 14:58:17 <DavidSchaengold> DavidSchaengold has joined #prov 14:58:30 <tlebo> What command do I use to associate my irc handle to my phone? 14:58:39 <Zakim> +??P30 #14:58:42 <EdoardoandDavid> EdoardoandDavid has joined #prov 14:58:44 <pgroth> \me Zakim blah is blah 14:59:13 <Zakim> + +1.858.210.aabb 14:59:15 <jorn> Zakim: ??P30 is me 14:59:23 <tlebo> \me Zakim P22 is tlebo 14:59:26 <Zakim> +??P35 14:59:31 <Edoardo_and_David> Edoardo_and_David has joined #prov 14:59:32 <tlebo> Zakim P22 is tlebo 14:59:41 <CarlOGC> CarlOGC has joined #prov 14:59:49 <jorn> Zakim, ??P30 is me 14:59:49 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 14:59:50 <tlebo> Zakim, ??P22 is tlebo 14:59:50 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it 14:59:50 <Zakim> + +1.805.893.aacc 14:59:52 <Zakim> +??P37 14:59:56 <frew> frew has joined #prov 15:00:00 <jun> jun has joined #prov 15:00:12 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P37 is me 15:00:12 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it 15:00:12 <satya> satya has joined #prov 15:00:17 <Zakim> +??P3 15:00:34 <YogeshSimmhan> YogeshSimmhan has joined #prov 15:00:42 <olaf> olaf has joined #prov 15:00:45 <Zakim> +SatyaSahoo 15:00:46 <paolo> paolo has joined #prov 15:00:53 <jorn> zakim, who is talking? 15:00:54 <pgroth> Zakim, who's there? 15:00:54 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, pgroth. 15:01:00 <Zakim> +??P4 15:01:03 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (28%) 15:01:28 <Zakim> +paolo_ 15:01:34 <Zakim> +olaf 15:01:38 <GK> GK has joined #prov 15:01:44 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov 15:01:51 <luc> Guest: Paolo (paolo_) Missier 15:01:54 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aadd 15:02:03 <iker> iker has joined #prov 15:02:12 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 15:02:14 <luc> Guest: Satya Sahoo 15:02:18 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the call? 15:02:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf, 15:02:22 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, [IPcaller] 15:02:26 <Zakim> +Yogesh 15:02:32 <luc> Guest: Yogesh Simmhan 15:02:35 <jun> zakim, [IPcaller] is jun 15:02:36 <Zakim> +??P40 15:02:40 <Zakim> +jun; got it 15:02:43 <jcheney> Zakim, ??P40 is me 15:02:51 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone? 15:02:53 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it 15:02:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf, 15:03:01 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov 15:03:03 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney 15:03:04 <frew> I am +1.805.893.aacc 15:03:06 <Zakim> +??P42 15:03:31 <zednik> I am +1.518.633.aadd 15:03:40 <dgarijo> Zakim, 1.805.893.aacc is frew 15:03:40 <Zakim> sorry, dgarijo, I do not recognize a party named '1.805.893.aacc' 15:03:45 <Zakim> +??P44 15:03:54 <Zakim> +??P8 15:03:56 <Christine> Hi. Sorry everyone. I'm not sure how to assign myself. Calling using VOIP. (Thanks Luc, you did send instructions.) 15:04:11 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone? 15:04:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf, 15:04:14 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, ??P8 15:04:14 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P8 is really me 15:04:14 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it 15:04:46 <GK_> GK_ has joined #prov 15:04:54 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone? 15:04:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf, 15:04:58 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame 15:05:00 <frew> +q 15:05:39 <jorn> zakim, aad is zednik 15:05:39 <Zakim> sorry, jorn, I do not recognize a party named 'aad' 15:05:40 <dgarijo> \me Type: "Zakim, <YOUR id> is me" 15:05:45 <jorn> zakim, aadd is zednik 15:05:45 <Zakim> +zednik; got it 15:05:54 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone 15:05:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's on the phone', pgroth 15:06:01 <jorn> zakim, aacc is frew 15:06:01 <Zakim> +frew; got it 15:06:04 <pgroth> Zakim, who's on the phone? 15:06:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, frew, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf, zednik, jun, 15:06:09 <Zakim> ... Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame 15:06:21 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.19 15:06:21 <Zakim> +??P17 15:06:27 <frew> zakim, frew is +1-805-893-7356 15:06:27 <Zakim> ++1-805-893-7356; got it 15:06:37 <smiles> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.19 15:06:37 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov 15:06:46 <Zakim> +Yolanda 15:06:52 <CarlOGC> zakim skype carl.n.reed CarlOGC 15:06:57 <GK> +??P44 15:07:01 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-05-12 15:07:01 <luc> Guest: Yolanda Gil 15:07:01 <smiles> TOPIC: Admin 15:07:01 <smiles> SUMMARY: The last minutes were accepted, active Wiki topics are now linked from the front page, invited expert issues are still being resolved by the W3C, and all are encouraged to sign up to be scribes for future meetings. 15:07:02 <smiles> SUBTOPIC: Last week's minutes 15:07:13 <pgroth> PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of 12 May telecon 15:07:20 <simoninireland> +1 15:07:21 <dgarijo> +1 15:07:21 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 15:07:22 <satya> +1 15:07:23 <DavidSchaengold> +1 15:07:23 <smiles> +1 15:07:23 <SamCoppens> zakim, +??44 is SamCoppens 15:07:23 <Zakim> sorry, SamCoppens, I do not recognize a party named '+??44' 15:07:24 <frew> +1 15:07:25 <jcheney> +1 15:07:26 <jorn> +1 15:07:28 <tlebo> +1 15:07:29 <Edoardo_and_David> +1 15:07:37 <GK> +1 15:07:42 <olaf> +1 15:07:45 <iker> +1 15:07:46 <jun> +1 15:07:48 <SamCoppens> zakim, ??44 is SamCoppens 15:07:49 <Zakim> sorry, SamCoppens, I do not recognize a party named '??44' 15:07:55 <GK> Zakim, who's on the phone? 15:07:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1-805-893-7356, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf, 15:08:01 <Zakim> ... zednik, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame, ??P17, Yolanda 15:08:04 <jorn> zakim, who is talking? 15:08:14 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 25 (3%), pgroth (54%), DavidSchaengold (24%), ??P35 (51%), ??P44 (12%) 15:08:16 <pgroth> RESOLVED: minutes accepted 15:08:17 <smiles> SUBTOPIC: Action items to review 15:08:18 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open 15:08:25 <tlebo> Zakim, ??P44 is SamCoppens 15:08:25 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it 15:08:31 <SamCoppens> thanks 15:09:02 <smiles> pgroth: completed action to add links to examples (active topics from front Wiki page) 15:09:14 <frew> zakim, +1-805-893-7356 is me 15:09:14 <Zakim> +frew; got it 15:09:23 <smiles> ... I encourage all to add links to the front page when there are new active topics 15:09:41 <satya> q+ 15:09:46 <pgroth> ack frew 15:09:54 <smiles> SUBTOPIC: Invited experts update 15:09:55 <smiles> pgroth: slowly resolving issues regarding getting everyone into the group, and on the mailing list 15:10:07 <GK> Zakim, who's on the phone? 15:10:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, frew, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf, zednik, jun, 15:10:10 <Zakim> ... Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, SamCoppens, khalidbelhajjame, ??P17, Yolanda 15:10:19 <smiles> satya: how soon will invited expert issues be resolved? 15:10:30 <satya> q- 15:10:37 <Zakim> -SamCoppens 15:10:44 <smiles> pgroth: don't know, this is an issue that the W3C handles 15:10:47 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes 15:11:01 <Zakim> +??P44 15:11:13 <GK> zakim, ??P44 is me 15:11:13 <Zakim> +GK; got it 15:11:16 <smiles> SUBTOPIC: Scribes 15:11:17 <smiles> pgroth: we need scribes for the next weeks - please add you names, else will pick on people 15:11:36 <luc> see instructions http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/HowToSetUp 15:11:44 <VinhNguyen> VinhNguyen has joined #prov 15:11:53 <luc> we can help set up before meeting 15:12:03 <smiles> pgroth: the responsibility of scribes is to write summaries of what people say, and instructions are available at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/HowToSetUp 15:12:27 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceExample 15:12:42 <smiles> TOPIC: Data journalism example 15:12:43 <smiles> SUMMARY: We will use the current example to start model discussions, but can continue to comment on it on the mailing list, and will extend it when we find it cannot illustrate an important concept. 15:12:56 <jorn> zakim,, who|s noisy 15:13:00 <Zakim> I don't understand ', who|s noisy', jorn 15:13:05 <smiles> pgroth: we decided to take an example-based approach, comments were received, are there any more? # 15:13:08 <khalidbelhajjame> there is noise on the line 15:13:09 <jorn> zakim, who's noisy 15:13:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's noisy', jorn 15:13:38 <GK> zakim, who is talking 15:13:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', GK 15:13:46 <jorn> zakim, who is talking? 15:13:50 <dgarijo> zakim, who is making noise? 15:13:54 <Zakim> -jorn 15:13:58 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (19%), +1.518.276.aaaa (4%), Yolanda (51%) 15:14:09 <Zakim> dgarijo, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (5%), pgroth (32%), Yolanda (43%) 15:14:10 <smiles> YolandaG: likes the example, but where we illustrate what a provenance container is, we need to be clear that not all provenance may be in that container - one may need to access other areas to retrieve other provenance data for the resource 15:14:30 <Zakim> -smiles # 15:14:34 <tlebo> yolanda: should consider situation where not all provenance is in the same "container", and would need to go fetch additional provenance for that resource. 15:14:35 <Zakim> +??P45 15:14:46 <jorn> zakim, ??P45 is me 15:14:46 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 15:14:56 <jun> +1 to YolandaG # 15:14:58 <pgroth> can people use the queue 15:15:15 <luc> tlebo: multiple sources are not represented yet in the example 15:15:25 <Zakim> +VinhNguyen 15:15:32 <pgroth> Zakim, mute YolandaG 15:15:32 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I do not know which phone connection belongs to YolandaG 15:15:35 <Zakim> +??P46 15:15:40 <pgroth> Zakim, mute Yolanda 15:15:40 <Zakim> Yolanda should now be muted 15:15:55 <jorn> zakim, who is talking? 15:16:02 <pgroth> q? 15:16:06 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (9%), pgroth (43%), DavidSchaengold (13%), ??P35 (14%), smiles (18%) # 15:16:29 <luc> carlOGC: to send a few words to incorporate map 15:16:38 <smiles> CarlOGC: asks about incorporating a map into the example, and will send to the mailing list a few words to incorporate 15:16:49 <tlebo> would the group mind expanding the variables used in the scenario? (e.g. lcp1) <luc> post meeting editing: lcp stands for local copy 15:17:12 <tlebo> +1 to continuing with example. 15:17:27 <smiles> pgroth: can we proceed with example as is, and expand as we go along - nice to move on to discussing concepts 15:17:29 <GK> +1 to moving on, update example as needed. 15:17:48 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 for continuing to change the example along instead of trying to get right now 15:17:55 <pgroth> proposal: continue updating example, but use the data journalism example as it currently stands 15:17:57 <YogeshSimmhan> +1 15:17:58 <jorn> +1 15:18:00 <dgarijo> +1 15:18:02 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 15:18:02 <satya> I agree, we should start with the example and let it evolve 15:18:02 <tlebo> +1 15:18:03 <olaf> +1 to moving on 15:18:03 <smiles> +1 15:18:04 <jorn> zakim, who is talking? 15:18:06 <Edoardo_and_David> +1 15:18:07 <SamCoppens> +1 15:18:09 <paolo> +1 15:18:11 <jun> +1 15:18:12 <iker> +1 moving on 15:18:15 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (27%) 15:18:18 <zednik> +1 15:18:19 <simoninireland> +1 15:18:20 <jcheney> +1 15:18:23 <jorn> zakim, please mute khalidbelhajjame 15:18:23 <Zakim> khalidbelhajjame should now be muted 15:18:28 <VinhNguyen> +1 15:18:35 <GK> +1 15:18:37 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame # 15:18:57 <frew> if you are in a public place then please mute 15:19:01 <pgroth> proposal accepted 15:19:01 <smiles> RESOLVED: continue updating example, but use the data journalism example as it currently stands 15:19:02 <tlebo> +q 15:19:03 <DavidSchaengold> +1 15:19:15 <Zakim> +??P8 15:19:28 <smiles> tlebo: what are the next steps beyond making tweaks to scenario? 15:19:33 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P8 is really me 15:19:35 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it 15:20:05 <dgarijo> +q 15:20:23 <smiles> pgroth: proceed as we have been doing by email to discuss example # 15:20:27 <tlebo> pgroth: how to proceed with current example: continue to discuss via email. 15:20:40 <luc> ack tlebo 15:20:46 <pgroth> ack dgarijo 15:20:53 <smiles> dgarijo: proposal to add another example(s) on mailing list, to capture scientific domain 15:20:54 <Zakim> -pgroth 15:20:57 <jorn> zakim, who is noisy? # 15:20:57 <tlebo> []: do we create a new example to capture scientific domain. 15:20:58 <satya> q+ 15:21:11 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DavidSchaengold (59%), ??P35 (29%) # 15:21:15 <pgroth> i droped 15:21:17 <tlebo> q? # 15:21:20 <pgroth> can you take over luc # 15:21:37 <luc> yes 15:21:42 <jorn> zakim, please mute DavidSchaengold 15:21:42 <Zakim> DavidSchaengold should now be muted 15:21:47 <tlebo> q? # 15:21:50 <dgarijo> finally! 15:21:52 <Zakim> +??P12 15:22:08 <pgroth> zakim, ??P12 is pgroth 15:22:08 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it 15:22:27 <tlebo> proposal: create an additional example for scientific domain. 15:22:51 <smiles> luc: we agreed last time to start with first example for discussing concepts, and bring other examples when they are found to be needed 15:22:54 <satya> q- # 15:23:04 <tlebo> luc: we agreed to start with this example to discuss concepts. When this scenario does not capture the concepts of sci prov, we develop new example. 15:23:17 <paulo> paulo has joined #prov 15:23:33 <tlebo> +1 working with the example as is. 15:23:36 <smiles> pgroth: we need to move on discussing concepts, but can keep iterating 15:23:58 <smiles> TOPIC: Provenance access and query task force 15:23:59 <smiles> SUMMARY: The Provenance Access and Query Task Force will start from the incubator group report for developing a draft architecture. We will not design a query language, but will say how existing query languages/models work with the architecture. 15:24:04 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011May/0071.html 15:24:15 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Access_and_Query_Task_Force 15:24:31 <smiles> pgroth: there has been discussion of architecture on mailing list 15:24:31 <smiles> ... any comments on how to get tf started? 15:24:49 <Zakim> +paulo 15:24:50 <smiles> olaf: we agreed on a set of objectives for the task force in time for the F2F meeting 15:25:20 <smiles> ... a including draft for access and query architecture 15:25:21 <smiles> PROPOSED: base draft architecture on proposal in XG report at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/XGR-prov/ 15:25:22 <iker> +1 olaf proposal 15:25:41 <GK> q+, to say I'm not sure how the provenance XG report really works as a foundation 15:25:46 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 for Olaf's proposal 15:25:57 <ericstephan> ericstephan has joined #prov 15:26:03 <dgarijo> +1 15:26:07 <SamCoppens> +1 15:26:50 <smiles> GK: not clear from XG report what the problem trying to be solved is 15:26:50 <Zakim> + +1.509.375.aaee # 15:27:08 <tlebo> []: we need a clear problem statement for PAQ-TF. 15:27:12 <satya> q+ 15:27:18 <smiles> ... will send thoughts to mailing list on this 15:27:26 <paulo> q+ 15:27:41 <luc> ack satya 15:27:46 <smiles> satya: agree with Olaf, but in XG report did not discuss query mechanism only access 15:27:58 <smiles> ... will we discuss query separately? 15:28:21 <smiles> pgroth: olaf's proposal was around access, fit into web architecture 15:28:33 <luc> q+ 15:29:57 <Zakim> -jorn # 15:30:00 <tlebo> paulo: we need questions for the provenance example. 15:30:15 <smiles> paulo: we have scenario with list of questions which could be posed, but should have queries which motivate problem, and design for answering the questions asked 15:30:16 <Zakim> +??P45 15:30:25 <jorn> zakim, ??P45 is me 15:30:25 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 15:30:34 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceExample#Provenance_Questions 15:31:18 <smiles> luc: discussions on access task force were good, and feedback on XG report was positive 15:31:31 <smiles> ... in those discussions, we were pointed to POWDER as something to consider 15:32:06 <smiles> ... queries are in scope of this WG, but not intent of WG to design a query language for provenance 15:32:40 <GK> +1 not designing a query language 15:32:45 <smiles> pgroth: two proposals to proceed: first, use incubator group report section to build on 15:32:59 <GK> q+ to say not opposing use of XG doc 15:33:05 <pgroth> ack paulo 15:33:07 <pgroth> ack luc 15:33:09 <YogeshSimmhan> +1 to olaf proposal to use XG report as starting point 15:33:16 <Zakim> -Yogesh 15:33:18 <smiles> ... second, more crisply define the problems we are trying to solve first 15:33:42 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 15:33:44 <smiles> +1 15:33:45 <Zakim> +Yogesh 15:33:45 <SamCoppens> +1 15:33:45 <jcheney> +1 for starting point 15:33:46 <simoninireland> +1 15:33:47 <olaf> +1 15:33:48 <jorn> +1 15:33:49 <dgarijo> +1 15:33:50 <tlebo> +1 15:33:50 <ericstephan> +1 15:33:51 <DavidSchaengold> +1 15:33:55 <jun> +1 for starting point 15:33:56 <GK> +1 (taking into account resevrations noted in email) 15:34:04 <satya> I also propose that we rename PAQ task force as provenance access task force 15:34:05 <Edoardo_and_David> +1 15:34:09 <satya> +1 15:34:11 <dgarijo> also, +1 to not designing a new query language. 15:34:25 <Zakim> -paulo 15:34:26 <khalidbelhajjame> +q 15:34:27 <ericstephan> ericstephan - is ericstephan - btw :-) 15:34:34 <pgroth> ack GK 15:34:34 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say not opposing use of XG doc 15:34:38 <GK> q- 15:34:48 <ericstephan> ericstephan has left #prov 15:34:51 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame 15:35:24 <smiles> khalid: if a query language is outside scope of the WG, we should be clear that we are only discussing access 15:35:26 <smiles> RESOLVED: use incubator report access architecture as starting point for access and query task force F2F draft 15:35:30 <GK> q+ to say that identifying mechanisms to use existing QL is OK 15:35:37 <luc> It is still the case that we may want to explain how to use, say SPARQL, to query provenance 15:35:38 <ericstephan> ericstephan has joined #prov 15:35:48 <satya> q+ 15:36:36 <smiles> pgroth: could rename access and query task force to access only, but we also have reference to sparql endpoints etc in charter 15:36:48 <Zakim> +paulo 15:36:57 <satya> q- 15:36:57 <pgroth> q? 15:37:00 <smiles> satya: not proposing new query language, but we can say how existing languages to fit into architecture 15:37:36 <smiles> GK: maybe it is in scope how to make use of existing query languages and mechanisms 15:38:12 <smiles> TOPIC: Concepts illustration 15:38:13 <smiles> SUMMARY: We will have a Wiki page per concept and use the issue tracker to discuss definitions. Definitions will be informal and grounded with the example. 15:38:31 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011May/0018.html 15:38:39 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/CharterConceptsIllustration 15:38:45 <smiles> pgroth: asked people to discuss how example can be used to illustrate concepts from charter 15:39:23 <paulo> paulo has joined #prov 15:39:28 <paulo> q+ 15:39:29 <smiles> ... used scenario to propose examples for concepts - not many comments yet - are the concept examples reasonable? 15:39:39 <pgroth> ack GK # 15:39:39 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say that identifying mechanisms to use existing QL is OK 15:39:45 <pgroth> ack paulo 15:40:05 <Altintas> Altintas has joined #prov 15:40:19 <smiles> paulo: maybe limiting that example is so focused on a process 15:42:02 <smiles> ... use of process may blind us to cover all aspects we need 15:42:44 <paulo> q+ 15:42:48 <smiles> pgroth: we want to define the set of concepts we want to use, need a process for this activity 15:43:34 <smiles> ... (as in a process for the working group, not a process in the example/model) 15:43:44 <luc> paul: explain what an issue is 15:43:54 <pgroth> What term do we adopt for concept 'xxx' and how do we define it?" 15:44:13 <luc> paul, please explain what an issue is 15:44:13 <smiles> pgroth: suggest we raise an issue for each concept in the charter of form above 15:44:30 <ericstephan> q+ 15:44:33 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/ 15:44:39 <Zakim> - +1.509.375.aaee 15:44:45 <smiles> ... an issue is something which can be raised in the tracker for discussion until resolution 15:44:57 <pgroth> q- # 15:45:02 <pgroth> eric? # 15:45:22 <ericstephan> lost connection getting back on 15:45:27 <paulo> q+ 15:45:29 <Zakim> + +1.509.375.aaff 15:45:37 <smiles> pgroth: we raise issues for the initial set of concepts from charter, and if new concepts people can raise them as issues 15:45:41 <Zakim> -jorn 15:45:43 <jorn> zakim, aaff probably is ericstephan 15:45:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aaff probably is ericstephan', jorn 15:45:44 <ericstephan> q+ again sorry 15:45:56 <Zakim> +??P14 15:46:07 <jorn> zakim, ??P14 is me 15:46:08 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 15:46:34 <jcheney> "issue" is just the name for something the tracker tracks... 15:46:46 <smiles> paulo: consider questions we have to be answered with model, as we may have concepts which are not answering any question 15:46:46 <luc> paulo has got a point, we have a list of queries associated with the example 15:47:04 <luc> a "w3c issue" is like a bug in bugzilla 15:47:35 <jcheney> some of them might be uncontroversial and so "resolved" immediately. 15:48:13 <jorn> zakim, aaff is probably ericstephan 15:48:13 <Zakim> +ericstephan; got it 15:48:18 <smiles> luc: paulo is right that we do not want concepts not used in any queries, so we need to show how they are used to answer queries 15:48:25 <smiles> ... we have a list of queries in the example and need to extend it over time 15:48:48 <smiles> PROPOSED: raise issue for discussing each concept definition 15:48:49 <satya> for raising issue? 15:48:49 <simoninireland> +1 15:48:49 <tlebo> +1 using tracker 15:48:49 <Zakim> -Yolanda 15:48:50 <dgarijo> +1 15:48:51 <ericstephan> +1 15:48:52 <satya> +1 15:48:52 <jorn> +1 15:48:53 <jcheney> +1 15:48:53 <smiles> +1 15:48:53 <GK> +1 15:48:54 <jun> +1 15:48:54 <DavidSchaengold> +1 15:48:54 <zednik> +1 15:48:54 <Altintas> +1 15:48:55 <frew> +1 15:48:55 <SamCoppens> +1 15:48:56 <paulo> q+ 15:48:57 <Edoardo_and_David> +1 15:48:58 <olaf> +1 15:48:58 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 15:49:00 <YogeshSimmhan> +1 15:49:00 <jcheney> q+ 15:49:58 <smiles> eric: can connection task force use these concepts to identify which groups they may pertain to? 15:50:25 <pgroth> ack paulo 15:50:32 <pgroth> ack eristephan 15:50:41 <pgroth> q? 15:50:51 <smiles> jcheney: when using issue tracker, there is a formal process for asking for comments from outside 15:51:20 <smiles> ... guidance says good to have examples to illustrate disagreements 15:51:30 <dgarijo> ack ericstephan 15:51:31 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/policies.html#formal-address 15:51:34 <jcheney> q- 15:52:06 <smiles> RESOLVED: use issue tracking to discuss concept definitions 15:52:32 <smiles> pgroth: how to suggest definitions? 15:52:33 <tlebo> wiki? 15:52:34 <luc> a wiki page per concept? 15:52:44 <tlebo> +1 15:52:47 <zednik> +1 # 15:52:52 <luc> i don't think so 15:53:03 <Edoardo_and_David> +1 a wiki page per concept 15:53:05 <ericstephan> +1 luc's idea 15:53:07 <jorn> +1 15:53:12 <smiles> pgroth: once we have a wiki page per concept, then what? 15:53:13 <satya> +1 for wiki page 15:53:15 <tlebo> q+ 15:53:16 <luc> so, when we raise an issue, we also create the corresponding wiki page 15:53:22 <olaf> +1 15:53:29 <satya> Create a definition for the concept 15:53:35 <jun> +1 15:53:41 <SamCoppens> +1 15:53:45 <GK> q+ to suggest that someone familiar with W3C support tools should make proposal (on list, with links) then have us throw rocks at it? 15:53:47 <smiles> tlebo: use wiki to represent current definition, have wiki link as part of the tracker (issue) 15:53:57 <dgarijo> +1 15:53:58 <jorn> there are history links in the wiki, aren't they? so use them in emails? 15:53:59 <Altintas> +1 15:54:11 <luc> q+ 15:54:16 <luc> ack again 15:54:18 <luc> ack sorry 15:54:20 <smiles> pgroth: how to get first set of definitions? 15:54:21 <satya> from the XG final report? 15:54:24 <luc> q+ 15:54:59 <smiles> GK: maybe more productive for someone familiar with W3C tooling put something initial together 15:55:35 <ericstephan> ericstephan has joined #prov 15:55:43 <GK> q- 15:55:47 <smiles> luc: proposal of inviting submitting definitions is good, but some definitions may be mutually dependent, so need mechanism to cross-ref definitions 15:55:51 <luc> q- 15:55:53 <satya> a note on the wiki page of the concept to cross-reference? 15:56:23 <Zakim> -??P3 15:56:28 <smiles> PROPOSED: idea is everyone allowed to submit own definitions, then merge 15:56:29 <GK> q+ to suggest suggested definitions should be grounded in example 15:56:37 <luc> or is better to put one proposal, which get discussed? 15:56:44 <tlebo> concept references within a definition can link via wiki link. 15:56:58 <smiles> GK: in asking people to submit, could ask that grounded in example? 15:57:04 <dgarijo> +1 15:57:32 <smiles> pgroth: (agree with GK, add to proposal above) 15:57:43 <satya> + 1 for proposal 1 15:57:51 <smiles> pgroth: alternative proposal to start with one definition, and edit (based on example) 15:57:55 <luc> ... or propose alternative definition 15:57:56 <tlebo> multiple working definitions could be placed onto the same concept's wiki page 15:57:57 <GK> q+ point of order: proposals not mutually exclusive? 15:58:53 <tlebo> what percentage of the working group can edit the wiki? 15:58:54 <smiles> GK: just suggesting that whatever process used, ground in example 15:58:59 <luc> q+ 15:59:25 <jcheney> +q 15:59:25 <GK> q- 15:59:27 <luc> q- 15:59:33 <pgroth> ack tlebo 15:59:36 <smiles> luc: maybe difficult to come up with initial definitions - instead paraphrase something rather than formal definition 16:00:04 <smiles> jcheney: formal or informal definitions? 16:00:11 <paulo> q+ 16:00:16 <zednik> +1 informal 16:00:20 <jcheney> q- 16:00:23 <jorn> +1 for informal first... 16:00:25 <Zakim> -??P42 16:00:32 <dgarijo> +1 to informal 16:00:33 <luc> q+ 16:00:34 <tlebo> re: formality, have both rdfs/owl statements and inform descriptions on same wiki page for the concept? 16:00:52 <smiles> paulo: agree on distinction between informal and formal definitions (are informal definitions actually definitions?) 16:01:23 <Zakim> -jorn 16:01:28 <smiles> luc: half of wg did not belong to incubator, we are first trying to build a shared vocabulary 16:01:36 <GK> +1 to building shared vocabulary 16:01:48 <pgroth> pgroth has left #prov 16:01:53 <Zakim> +??P62 16:01:58 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov 16:02:00 <zednik> +1 to building shared vocabularly 16:02:06 <jorn> Zakim, ??p62 is me 16:02:06 <Zakim> +jorn; got it 16:02:06 <smiles> ... starting with a formal definition is not helpful, informal definition using paraphrasing, examples, graphical notation is better 16:02:19 <olaf> +1 for proposal 1 with informal definitions 16:02:28 <jun> + informal 16:02:30 <dgarijo> +1 16:02:30 <jcheney> +1 16:02:31 <jorn> +1 16:02:31 <zednik> +1 16:02:31 <tlebo> +1 formal +1 informal 16:02:33 <ericstephan> +1 16:02:33 <frew> +1 16:02:34 <satya> +1 for informal 16:02:35 <Edoardo_and_David> +1 16:02:36 <pgroth> proposal for informal to start 16:02:38 <smiles> pgroth: informal definitions to start? 16:02:39 <smiles> +1 16:02:41 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 16:02:43 <paolo> +1 informal 16:02:44 <dgarijo> +1 informal 16:02:44 <DavidSchaengold> +1 for informal 16:02:45 <GK> +1 start informal, build shared vocab 16:02:46 <CarlOGC> +1 16:02:48 <YogeshSimmhan> +1 16:02:48 <Altintas> +1 16:02:50 <SamCoppens> +1 16:02:54 <Altintas> or informal 16:03:28 <Zakim> -frew 16:03:31 <smiles> RESOLVED: start with informal definitions, grounded with example 16:03:32 <smiles> pgroth: will set up web pages for concepts, issues for defining concepts 16:03:32 <Zakim> -jun 16:03:33 <smiles> ACTION: Paul to set up web pages for concepts, issues for defining concepts 16:03:34 <Zakim> -SatyaSahoo 16:03:35 <Zakim> -ericstephan 16:03:36 <Zakim> - +1.518.276.aaaa 16:03:39 <Zakim> -jcheney 16:03:41 <Zakim> -DavidSchaengold 16:03:42 <paolo> paolo has left #prov 16:03:43 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame 16:03:45 <Zakim> -dgarijo 16:03:47 <Zakim> - +1.858.210.aabb 16:03:49 <Zakim> -olaf 16:03:51 <Zakim> -Yogesh 16:03:53 <Zakim> -paolo_ 16:03:55 <Zakim> -zednik 16:03:57 <Zakim> -VinhNguyen 16:04:01 <Zakim> -luc 16:04:01 <smiles> rrsagent, set log public 16:04:03 <Zakim> -GK # 16:04:04 <ericstephan> Yes Zakim? 16:04:07 <Zakim> -paulo 16:04:07 <pgroth> pgroth has left #prov 16:04:09 <Zakim> -??P35 16:04:11 <smiles> rrsagent, draft minutes 16:04:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-minutes.html smiles 16:04:15 <Zakim> -tlebo 16:04:17 <Zakim> -??P4 # 16:04:17 <luc> thanks simon 16:04:21 <Zakim> -??P17 16:04:27 <Zakim> -pgroth 16:04:28 <smiles> trackbot, end telcon 16:04:28 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees 16:04:29 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, DavidSchaengold, +1.858.210.aabb, jorn, tlebo, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, SatyaSahoo, paolo_, olaf, 16:04:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:04:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-minutes.html trackbot 16:04:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye 16:04:30 <RRSAgent> I see no action items 16:04:32 <Zakim> ... +1.518.633.aadd, Yogesh, jun, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, zednik, Yolanda, SamCoppens, frew, GK, VinhNguyen, paulo, +1.509.375.aaee, +1.509.375.aaff, ericstephan # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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