Chatlog 2011-05-12

See original RRSAgent log or preview nicely formatted version.

Please justify/explain all edits to this page, in your "edit summary" text.

<luc> Guest: Paolo (paolo_) Missier
<luc> Guest: Satya Sahoo 

14:45:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:45:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-prov-irc
14:45:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:45:17 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
14:45:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
14:45:19 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:45:20 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:45:20 <trackbot> Date: 12 May 2011
14:45:41 <luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 
14:45:41 <Zakim> ok, luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
14:46:17 <luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.12
14:46:24 <luc> Chair: luc
14:46:38 <luc> rrsagent, make logs public 
14:47:25 <luc> Regrets: Jörn Hees, Ilkay Altintas
14:49:21 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov
14:50:16 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
14:50:27 <luc> Scribe: dgarijo
14:50:45 <dgarijo> hi all
14:50:53 <luc> Hi daniel, everything is set up for you.
14:51:02 <dgarijo> thanks!
14:52:08 <VinhNguyen> VinhNguyen has joined #prov
14:52:49 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:52:57 <Zakim> +??P20
14:53:11 <administrator> administrator has joined #prov
14:53:19 <Zakim> +VinhNguyen
14:53:20 <Zakim> +??P39
14:54:04 <simoninireland> simoninireland has joined #prov
14:54:17 <Zakim> +??P3
14:54:22 <pgroth> Zakim, +??P20 is pgroth
14:54:22 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I do not recognize a party named '+??P20'
14:54:33 <pgroth> Zakim, P20 is pgroth
14:54:33 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I do not recognize a party named 'P20'
14:54:35 <dgarijo> zakim, ??P3 is me
14:54:35 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
14:54:44 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P20 is me
14:54:44 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
14:54:58 <pgroth> Zakim, mute me
14:54:58 <Zakim> pgroth should now be muted
14:55:10 <pgroth> Zakim, umute me
14:55:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'umute me', pgroth
14:55:17 <pgroth> Zakim, unmute me
14:55:17 <Zakim> pgroth should no longer be muted
14:55:28 <GK> GK has joined #prov
14:55:39 <luc> I am struggling to get through. Anybody got problem?
14:55:47 <dgarijo> not at all
14:55:57 <dgarijo> i dialed through skype
14:56:00 <GK> I'm hearing things, not sure anyone hears me.
14:56:15 <GK> zakim, help
14:56:15 <Zakim> Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
14:56:18 <Zakim> Some of the commands I know are:
14:56:19 <Zakim>  xxx is yyy       - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
14:56:21 <dgarijo> zakim, who is making noise
14:56:22 <Zakim>                     if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
14:56:24 <Zakim>  xxx may be yyy   - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
14:56:27 <Zakim>  I am xxx         - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
14:56:30 <Zakim>  xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
14:56:30 <luc> got in
14:56:32 <Zakim>  xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
14:56:34 <Zakim>  who's here?      - lists the participants on the phone
14:56:36 <Zakim>  who's muted?     - lists the participants who are muted
14:56:39 <Zakim>  mute xxx         - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
14:56:42 <Zakim>  unmute xxx       - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
14:56:44 <Zakim>  is xxx here?     - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
14:56:47 <Zakim>  list conferences - reports the active conferences
14:56:49 <Zakim>  this is xxx      - associates this channel with conference xxx
14:56:51 <Zakim>  excuse us        - disconnects from the irc channel
14:56:53 <Zakim> I last learned something new on $Date: 2024/02/02 09:22:24 $
14:56:53 <luc> who's here
14:56:54 <Zakim> +luc
14:56:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is making noise', dgarijo
14:56:56 <Zakim> +??P18
14:57:43 <lebo-rpi> lebo-rpi has joined #prov
14:57:54 <luc> zakim, who is here?
14:57:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, VinhNguyen, ??P39, dgarijo, luc, ??P18
14:57:55 <jun> jun has joined #prov
14:57:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see lebo-rpi, GK, simoninireland, administrator, VinhNguyen, dgarijo, pgroth, Zakim, RRSAgent, luc, sandro, trackbot
14:59:08 <GK> zakim, i am ??p39
14:59:08 <Zakim> +GK; got it
14:59:24 <olaf> olaf has joined #prov
14:59:32 <Zakim> +??P21
14:59:33 <dcorsar> dcorsar has joined #prov
14:59:35 <GK> zakim, who is making noise
14:59:35 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is making noise', GK
14:59:36 <DavidSchaengold> DavidSchaengold has joined #prov
14:59:43 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aaaa
14:59:43 <dgarijo> wooow!
14:59:57 <Zakim> +??P41
15:00:03 <Christine> Christine has joined #prov
15:00:17 <kai> kai has joined #prov
15:00:19 <Zakim> +Jeff_Pan
15:00:21 <sandro> zakim, call Thomas-781
15:00:21 <Zakim> ok, sandro; the call is being made
15:00:22 <Zakim> +Thomas
15:00:23 <Zakim> +olaf
15:00:33 <Zakim> + +44.191.245.aabb
15:00:36 <Satya> Satya has joined #prov
15:00:51 <Zakim> +??P43
15:00:54 <sandro> zakim, Thomas-781 is temporarily Sandro
15:00:54 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not recognize a party named 'Thomas-781'
15:00:55 <frew> frew has joined #prov
15:01:01 <sandro> zakim, Thomas is temporarily Sandro
15:01:01 <Zakim> +Sandro; got it
15:01:04 <kai> zakim, ??P43 is me
15:01:04 <Zakim> +kai; got it
15:01:05 <GK> zakim, who is talking
15:01:05 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', GK
15:01:11 <Zakim> + +1.646.389.aacc
15:01:21 <GK> zakim, who is talking?
15:01:28 <Zakim> +??P46
15:01:29 <paolo_> paolo_ has joined #prov
15:01:31 <Zakim> GK, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (21%), GK (10%)
15:01:36 <Zakim> +??P45
15:01:53 <jun> zakim, ?P45 is jun
15:01:53 <Zakim> sorry, jun, I do not recognize a party named '?P45'
15:01:56 <Zakim> + +329331aadd
15:02:02 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
15:02:05 <jun> zakim, ??P45 is jun
15:02:07 <Zakim> +jun; got it
15:02:10 <Zakim> +SatyaSahoo
15:02:13 <GK> zakim, i am ?p20
15:02:13 <Zakim> sorry, GK, I do not see a party named '?p20'
15:02:16 <paolo_> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, VinhNguyen, GK, dgarijo, luc, ??P18, ??P21, +1.518.276.aaaa, ??P41, Jeff_Pan, olaf, Sandro, +44.191.245.aabb, kai, +1.646.389.aacc, ??P46, jun,
15:02:19 <Zakim> ... +329331aadd, SatyaSahoo
15:02:22 <Zakim> + +30281039aaee
15:02:23 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
15:02:32 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov
15:02:33 <pgroth> Zakim, GK is me
15:02:35 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
15:02:41 <Zakim> - +44.191.245.aabb
15:02:43 <pgroth> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, VinhNguyen, pgroth.a, dgarijo, luc, ??P18, ??P21, +1.518.276.aaaa, ??P41, Jeff_Pan, olaf, Sandro, kai, +1.646.389.aacc, ??P46, jun, +329331aadd,
15:02:50 <Zakim> ... SatyaSahoo, +30281039aaee
15:02:54 <pgroth> Zakim, GK is pgroth
15:03:05 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I do not recognize a party named 'GK'
15:03:10 <Zakim> +??P22
15:03:23 <pgroth> Zakim, pgroth is GK
15:03:24 <Zakim> + +44.191.245.aaff
15:03:24 <Zakim> +GK; got it
15:03:26 <SamCoppens> zakim, +329331aadd is SamCoppens
15:03:26 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it
15:03:29 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P22 is really me
15:03:31 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
15:03:33 <Zakim> +??P27
15:03:52 <DavidSchaengold> zakim, +1.646.389.aacc is DavidSchaengold
15:03:52 <Zakim> +DavidSchaengold; got it
15:03:53 <Zakim> +paulo
15:03:56 <paolo_> zakim, +44.191.245.aaff is me
15:03:56 <Zakim> +paolo_; got it
15:04:06 <paulo> paulo has joined #prov
15:04:16 <Zakim> +??P1
15:04:20 <CarlOGC> CarlOGC has joined #prov
15:04:29 <smiles> zakim, ??P1 is me
15:04:30 <dgarijo> Luc: Agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.12
<luc> Topic: Admin
<luc> Subtopic: Minutes Approval
15:04:35 <Zakim> +smiles; got it
15:04:53 <iker> iker has joined #prov
15:05:13 <luc>    http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-05-05
15:05:30 <Satya> +1
15:05:31 <pgroth> +1
15:05:34 <jun> +1
15:05:34 <paolo_> +1
15:05:36 <iker> +1
15:05:37 <dgarijo> Luc: support to the minutes of the last call
15:05:38 <lebo-rpi> +1
15:05:38 <dcorsar> +1
15:05:39 <dgarijo> +1
15:05:41 <kai> +1
15:05:42 <SamCoppens> +1
15:05:44 <olaf> +1
15:05:44 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
15:05:46 <smiles> +1
15:05:48 <frew> +1
15:05:48 <DavidSchaengold> +1
15:05:51 <GK> +1
15:05:56 <simoninireland> I sent my apologies -- don't know if you want to record that. Otherwise +1
15:06:00 <CarlOGC> +1
15:06:35 <dgarijo> the agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.12
15:06:51 <pgroth> minutes were accepted
<luc> Summary: Minutes of last week's meeting were approved
<luc> Subtopic: Action items
15:06:52 <dgarijo> Luc: no actions on the last call
<luc> Summary: There was no action
<luc> Subtopic: Invited Experts
15:07:01 <dgarijo> ... updates on membership
<luc> Summary: Most invitations sent out, a few outstanding, but email discussions in progress
15:08:14 <dgarijo> Satya: problems with logging on the wiki page to post updates to the provenance example
<luc> Subtopic: Scribing
15:08:43 <dgarijo> Luc: volunteers for scribbing are required
15:08:47 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes
15:08:55 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
15:09:17 <dgarijo> ... everyone should update their nicknames
15:09:17 <VinhNguyen> +1
15:09:29 <dgarijo> ... to facilitate the work on the wiki /telecons
15:09:32 <Lena> Lena has joined #prov
<luc> Summary: Please volunteer to scribe
<luc> Topic: Discussion Example
15:09:32 <luc>  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011May/0012.html
15:10:02 <dgarijo> ... Provenance concepts and Paul example
15:10:17 <Zakim> +Lena
15:10:18 <dgarijo> ... discussion started by email during the week
15:10:35 <dgarijo> ... small subset of the group participating
15:10:38 <paolo_> Luc, I am not yet a member and I am not on the list...
15:10:51 <dgarijo> ...any feedback on the example from others?
15:11:00 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceExample
15:11:10 <Satya> q+
15:11:17 <luc> ack Satya
15:11:24 <dgarijo> ... before to moving to more complicate discussions, we should agree on whether is a good example or not
15:11:46 <paulo> q+
15:11:53 <luc> ack paulo
15:12:28 <luc> zakim, who is making noise?
15:12:39 <Zakim> luc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: paulo (63%), luc (19%), GK (29%), VinhNguyen (4%)
15:13:05 <dgarijo> Paulo: could we remove the previous example to avoid confusion?
15:13:18 <GK> I think the example is fine as a starting point for discussion, I expect it won't represent the totality of requirements.  AM worried about getting bogged down in tech details before user requirements have been elicited.
15:14:09 <dgarijo> Luc: happy to remove it. However the previous example is mentioned in the minutes that we have just approved
15:14:17 <GK> Cool URIs... better to add a health warning?
15:15:00 <Zakim> +[ISI]
15:15:06 <dgarijo> Paulo: Had comments about the previous example, but now is happier with the new one.
15:15:20 <dgarijo> Paulo: should I post the old comments?
15:16:05 <dgarijo> Luc: The current example is being edited with the discussions, it is a live document.
15:16:23 <luc> q+
15:16:28 <luc> ack luc
15:16:30 <luc> q?
15:16:34 <GK> q+, to suggest not removing previous example but adding an note to old example
15:16:47 <GK> q+ to suggest not removing previous example but adding an note to old example
<luc>POST Meeting editing:
<luc>Warning was added at the beginning  of http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceExampleAndConcept1#Provenance_Concepts_and_Example
15:17:15 <dgarijo> Luc: We agreed in the last telecon that we would use an example  that would be technology agnostic
15:17:20 <dgarijo> Paulo: agrees
15:17:30 <smiles> +1 it seems to me an appropriate example which matches vision outlined in the wg charter
15:17:34 <Satya> +1
15:17:35 <SamCoppens> +1
15:17:36 <frew> +1
15:17:38 <DavidSchaengold> +1
15:17:38 <olaf> +1
15:17:39 <simoninireland> +1
15:17:39 <luc> PROPOSED: use data journalism example for discussion
15:17:42 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
15:17:43 <lebo-rpi> +1
15:17:43 <frew> q+
15:17:44 <dcorsar> +1
15:17:44 <dgarijo> Luc: proposes the journalist example as main starting point for discussions
15:17:44 <jun> +1
15:17:46 <dgarijo> +1
15:17:47 <kai> +1
15:17:49 <zednik> +1
15:17:53 <GK> +1 accept data journo example for discussion
15:17:59 <paulo> +1 (for .../ProvenanceExample)
15:18:01 <paolo_> +1
15:18:02 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:18:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see GK, VinhNguyen, pgroth.a, dgarijo, luc, ??P18, ??P21, +1.518.276.aaaa, ??P41, Jeff_Pan, olaf, Sandro, kai, DavidSchaengold, ??P46, jun, SamCoppens, SatyaSahoo,
15:18:06 <Zakim> ... +30281039aaee, khalidbelhajjame, paolo_, ??P27, paulo, smiles, Lena, [ISI]
15:18:24 <luc> ACCEPTED: use data journalism example for discussion
<luc> Summary: Data journalism example was accepted to discuss provenance concepts
<luc> TOPIC: F2F 1
<luc> Subtopic: Logistics
15:18:33 <YolandaGil> YolandaGil has joined #prov
15:19:14 <dgarijo> Luc: F2F meeting (we will be back to the example later, to discuss changes)
15:19:22 <luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1
15:19:46 <dgarijo> ... from logistic point of view, the wikipage describes the event. Suggestions?
15:20:16 <dgarijo> ... please update the page saying if you'll be able to attend
<luc> Summary: Book your hotel (note proximity to July 4th) and indicate your attendance
<luc> Subtopic: F2F1 objectives
15:20:11 <luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011May/0017.html
15:20:33 <dgarijo> ... what are we planning to achieve in the meeting?
15:21:26 <dgarijo> ... sent an email with a number of issues. Can we achieve them?
15:21:27 <luc> q?
15:21:32 <dgarijo> ... are they realistic?
15:21:56 <luc> ack pgroth.a
15:21:56 <Zakim> pgroth.a, you wanted to suggest not removing previous example but adding and note to old example
15:22:10 <luc> q?
15:22:18 <luc> ack frew
15:22:40 <JimMyers> JimMyers has joined #prov
15:22:42 <dgarijo> frew: any of the documents discussed should be linked to the main wiki page
15:22:52 <pgroth> q+
15:22:54 <luc> q?
15:22:54 <dgarijo> Luc: I agree
15:22:57 <martin> i have a question
15:23:26 <dgarijo> martin: should we include in the example some empirical data capture?
15:23:45 <luc> q?
15:23:51 <pgroth> we will come back to the example in a bit
15:24:01 <dgarijo> martin: would be good to include some data that come to an observation
15:24:21 <dgarijo> martin: also the material circumpstances of the photo capture
15:24:34 <smiles> q+
15:24:39 <dgarijo> Luc: we'll be back to the example in a bit, first the f2f objectives
15:24:48 <dgarijo> martin: ok
15:25:01 <luc> q?
15:25:19 <pgroth> ack
15:25:24 <pgroth> ack pgroth
15:25:33 <luc> ACTION to pgroth: add links to example 
15:25:33 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
15:25:52 <dgarijo> smiles: don't really understand the objectives on task force 4?
15:25:58 <pgroth> ACTION pgroth: add links to example
15:25:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3 - Add links to example [on Paul Groth - due 2011-05-19].
15:26:10 <GK> q+ TO SAY I DON'T SEE GOALS ON THE F2F PAGE
15:26:22 <pgroth> Zakim, pgroth.a is GK
15:26:22 <Zakim> +GK; got it
15:26:29 <pgroth> q?
15:26:39 <luc> q?
15:26:44 <luc> ack smiles
15:26:52 <dgarijo> Luc: implement examples for the specification. Identify people, apps and the use of provenance
15:26:56 <luc> ack pgroth.a
15:26:56 <Zakim> pgroth.a, you wanted to SAY I DON'T SEE GOALS ON THE F2F PAGE
15:26:57 <pgroth> q?
15:27:10 <luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011May/0017.html
15:27:12 <dgarijo> GK: can't see the goals in the f2f page
15:27:28 <olaf> q+
15:27:40 <olaf> how would the 1st objective for the Provenance Access and Query Task Force differ from Sec.6 in the prov-xg final report?
15:27:50 <luc> That's what the TF has to decide (before the F2F)
15:28:17 <olaf> q-
15:28:18 <luc> q?
15:28:26 <paolo_> q+
15:28:36 <luc> q?
15:29:11 <dgarijo> GK: 3 first objectives look good, but aren't these early days for implementation?
15:29:35 <paulo> q+
15:29:46 <luc> q?
15:30:21 <luc> ack paolo_
15:30:43 <luc> q?
15:30:44 <paolo_> ack
15:31:09 <luc> q?
15:31:10 <GK> q+ to say I expect there will be additional scenarios in due course
15:31:29 <luc> q?
15:31:48 <dgarijo> paolo: new requiriments won't be handled by this example
15:31:56 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aagg
15:32:03 <dgarijo> paolo:  are we developing new examples?
15:32:05 <luc> ack GK
15:32:05 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say I expect there will be additional scenarios in due course
15:32:21 <Satya> I also agree with Paolo
15:32:29 <luc> q?
15:32:38 <dgarijo> GK: the new example is a starting point
15:32:54 <pgroth> we don't want to implement anything
15:32:57 <pgroth> amen to that!
15:33:24 <dgarijo> paulo: are going to provide guidelines in terms of implementation
15:33:31 <GK> q+ to say yes to >1 implementation; getting beyond 1st rec stage will require 2 of each feature
15:33:42 <pgroth> q+
15:33:44 <luc> q?
15:33:59 <luc> ack GK
15:33:59 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say yes to >1 implementation; getting beyond 1st rec stage will require 2 of each feature
15:34:07 <luc> ack paulo
15:34:11 <dgarijo> GK: we need more than 1 implementation
15:34:11 <luc> q?
15:34:20 <sandro> +1 GK
15:34:33 <paolo_> @GK: what is "interoperate" in this context?
15:34:46 <dgarijo> GK: the standard has to prove that is better that independent implementations
15:34:49 <luc> q?
15:35:19 <dgarijo> sandro: agrees with GK. Really try to make sure is something that people can use
15:35:21 <luc> q?
15:35:27 <luc> ack pgroth
15:36:20 <dgarijo> GK: test cases can be very useful here
15:36:21 <luc> PROPOSED: to accept the objectives for F2F1 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011May/0017.html
15:36:34 <GK> +1
15:36:37 <dgarijo> +1
15:36:38 <smiles> +1
15:36:39 <paulo> q+
15:36:39 <dcorsar> +1
15:36:40 <olaf> +1
15:36:40 <jun> +1
15:36:40 <SamCoppens> +1
15:36:42 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
15:36:43 <simoninireland> +1
15:36:48 <DavidSchaengold> +1
15:36:49 <paolo_> +1
15:36:52 <martin> +1
15:37:01 <luc> zakim, who is here?
15:37:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see GK, VinhNguyen, GK, dgarijo, luc, ??P18, ??P21, +1.518.276.aaaa, ??P41, Jeff_Pan, olaf, Sandro, kai, DavidSchaengold, ??P46, jun, SamCoppens, SatyaSahoo,
15:37:04 <Zakim> ... +30281039aaee, khalidbelhajjame, paolo_, ??P27, paulo, smiles, Lena, [ISI], +1.518.633.aagg
15:37:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see JimMyers, YolandaGil, Lena, zednik, iker, CarlOGC, paulo, SamCoppens, smiles, khalidbelhajjame, paolo_, frew, Satya, kai, Christine, DavidSchaengold, dcorsar, olaf,
15:37:08 <Zakim> ... jun, lebo-rpi, GK, simoninireland, martin, VinhNguyen, dgarijo, pgroth, Zakim, RRSAgent, luc, sandro, trackbot
15:37:20 <kai> +1
15:37:21 <zednik> +1
15:37:22 <VinhNguyen> +1
15:37:27 <luc> q?
15:37:27 <frew> +1
15:37:44 <iker> +1
15:37:53 <dgarijo> paulo: i would like to see how much time are we going to dedicate for the tasks
15:38:11 <paolo_> I was assuming the task forces would report to the F2F for a plenary discussion?!
15:38:18 <dgarijo> ... in the f2f meeting
15:38:32 <dgarijo> Luc: it will be driven by the objectives
15:39:30 <dgarijo> Luc: I will set up an agenda to divide the time for each of the tf
15:39:33 <Satya> +1 (except not sure about the Implementation and Test Cases Task Force objectives)
15:40:10 <dgarijo> Luc: not intended to do the whole work in the f2f
15:40:21 <dgarijo> Luc: it will be the agreement in terminology
15:40:33 <GK> +1 to say I think that having common terminology is vital goal
15:40:36 <dgarijo> Luc: we have to do a lot of discussion in between
15:40:47 <dgarijo> paulo: supports the objectives
15:40:51 <paolo_> +1 to Luc: most of the work to be done before we get to the meeting
15:41:01 <paolo_> s/must/most
15:41:06 <luc> ACCEPTED: objectives for F2F1
<luc> Summary: The F2F1 objectives were accepted
<luc> Topic: Concepts Illustration
<luc>Subtopic: Example discussion
15:41:49 <dgarijo> Luc: some of you have suggestions to improve the example
15:42:05 <dgarijo> Luc: useful to hear a short outline of them in the call
15:42:06 <luc> q?
15:42:13 <paulo> q+
15:42:32 <martin> q+
15:42:37 <luc> q?
15:43:14 <dgarijo> paulo: can not discuss properly because of the time of the mail discussions
15:43:26 <luc> q?
15:44:04 <dgarijo> Luc: discussion starts from the ending of the telecon
15:44:19 <dgarijo> Luc: we should not wait till last minute to raise discussions
15:44:47 <sandro> q+
15:44:51 <luc> q?
15:44:56 <smiles> Maybe it has been difficult this past week because of the invited experts only just being included
15:45:08 <luc> ack paulo
15:45:56 <luc> ack sandro
15:45:58 <luc> q?
15:45:59 <GK> If substantive discussions and key consensus forming takes place in email, rather than in telecon, then timezone matters less.
15:46:33 <dgarijo> Luc: the point on mail discussions is to achieve consensus
15:46:34 <luc> ack martin
15:46:54 <luc> q?
15:47:09 <dgarijo> martin: proposes to use provenance info from measurements observations
15:47:33 <lebo-rpi> q+
15:47:34 <dgarijo> martin: vital for scientists to understand the circumstances of the measure
15:47:54 <GK> q+ to say I like being able to deal with measurement provenance; not sure expanding the initial example is best way...
15:48:00 <dgarijo> ... the location of the picture on the example, by who
15:48:02 <luc> q?
15:48:08 <dgarijo> Luc: good extension
15:48:13 <simoninireland> q+
15:48:18 <dgarijo> Luc: plase mail  it to the mailing list
15:48:24 <pgroth> i think it's good
15:48:29 <luc> q?
15:48:38 <luc> ack lebo-rpi
15:49:00 <martin> q+
15:49:13 <Satya>  I agree with martin, we have a relevant paper for provenance of sensor readings: http://knoesis.wright.edu/library/download/SPOT-Provenance_Aware_LSD.pdf
15:49:16 <dgarijo> lebo-rpi: extension to what the newspaper was doing incorporating information from various sources.
15:49:34 <dgarijo> ... for example another charter 
15:49:44 <Satya> +1 for lebo
15:49:55 <Satya> q+
15:50:07 <dgarijo> ... having multiple sources in the same graph
15:50:13 <luc> q?
15:50:18 <pgroth> this could integrate well with martin's proposal 
15:50:21 <khalidbelhajjame> +q
15:50:23 <dgarijo> Luc: great, send a mil also
15:50:41 <pgroth> +q
15:50:41 <lebo-rpi> +1 on keeping this example simple
15:50:58 <luc> q?
15:50:59 <dgarijo> GK: not sure if this is the best way to handle the example. We should introduce more scenarios
15:51:08 <paolo_> +1 for multiple simple scenarios -- or at least make it modular
15:51:10 <luc> ack GK
15:51:10 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say I like being able to deal with measurement provenance; not sure expanding the initial example is best way...
15:51:12 <kai> +1
15:51:19 <martin> q+
15:51:19 <pgroth> +1
15:51:23 <lebo-rpi> +1
15:51:34 <luc> q?
15:51:44 <dgarijo> zakim, whi is speaking?
15:51:44 <Zakim> sorry, dgarijo, I do not understand your question
15:51:52 <dgarijo> zakim, who is speaking?
15:51:54 <pgroth> so far this doesn't seem to bad...
15:52:04 <Zakim> dgarijo, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jeff_Pan (9%)
15:52:14 <zednik> +1 for multiple focused scenarios
15:52:33 <pgroth> these extensions don't look to bad
15:52:41 <luc> q?
15:52:42 <GK> I'm happy with this
15:52:44 <martin> +1
15:52:57 <dgarijo> Luc: we will decide on the mailing list whether we should add new scenarios or simple extensions
15:52:58 <frew> rapid progress on n simple examples > slow progress on 1 complex example
15:53:05 <luc> ack simoninireland
15:53:10 <luc> q?
15:53:23 <luc> ack martin
15:53:35 <simoninireland> simoninireland has joined #prov
15:53:37 <dgarijo> martin: in general the provenance problem is a highly interconnected graph
15:53:48 <paulo> q+
15:53:50 <dgarijo> martin: multiple process/products
15:53:55 <luc> q?
15:54:07 <simoninireland> Sorry, I seem to have lost my sound input.....
15:54:11 <dgarijo> ... not sure if the multiplicity adds new concepts
15:54:11 <lebo-rpi> martin suggested having the newspaper add a photograph to bring out measurement provenance - would a reader poll/survey make sense?
15:54:15 <simoninireland> I'll end an email of my comment
15:54:22 <dgarijo> ... it might be an issue of cardinality
15:54:35 <luc> q?
15:54:40 <luc> ack satya
15:54:42 <dgarijo> Luc: that is a discussion for the future
15:54:59 <dgarijo> Satya: we don't need the scenario, but add provenance questions
15:55:15 <Zakim> -??P27
15:55:25 <dgarijo> ... would like to add a sentence to the end of the example
15:55:26 <luc> q?
15:55:49 <GK> +1
15:55:54 <martin> +1 multiplicity is relevant for querying
15:56:00 <luc> q?
15:56:06 <dgarijo> ... will mail the list for other points
15:56:09 <GK> (Need to have consumer for requirements/questions)
15:56:11 <luc> ack khalidbelhajjame
15:56:14 <luc> q?
15:56:52 <lebo-rpi> the "consumer" for my proposed two-source newspaper graph is the reader of the graph. They want to know that attribute X came from the government and attribute Y came from another company.
15:56:52 <dgarijo> khalid: the error detected by the blogger should be part of the provenance
15:56:59 <luc> q?
15:57:06 <dgarijo> I agree with khalid
15:57:22 <luc> q?
15:57:27 <luc> ack pgroth
15:58:01 <dgarijo> pgroth: all suggestions can be included in the example. We have enough to discuss the concepts
15:58:14 <luc> q?
15:58:22 <dgarijo> ... if we see that is not enough we can always go back and edit it
15:59:08 <dgarijo> Luc: the best thing would be to reply the messages in the archive
15:59:13 <luc> q?
15:59:24 <dgarijo> +q
16:00:53 <dgarijo> paulo: i would like to see what are the dimensions not considered right now
16:01:48 <olaf> I have to go - bye
<luc>Summary: Some suggestions were made to improve the data journalism example. It was indicated that these suggestions should be followed by an email and discussion on the mailing list. It was felt that the example should remain simple, and should not be stretched to accommodate all provenance use cases. If the need arises, other examples will be developed in a similar manner.
<luc>Subtopic: Concept illustration
16:01:52 <dgarijo> Luc: the motivation of the example was to discuss the concepts of the charter. We need to share some terminology
16:01:55 <luc> Charter concepts illustration: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011May/0018.html
16:01:56 <Zakim> -olaf
16:02:20 <dgarijo> Luc: illustration of the concepts
16:02:36 <dgarijo> luc: let's discuss these concepts by email
<luc>Summary: Illustrations were circulated during the week. Concepts illustrations should initially be discussed over email.
16:02:43 <Zakim> -SatyaSahoo
16:02:44 <Zakim> -[ISI]
16:02:45 <Zakim> -??P41
16:02:46 <Zakim> -Jeff_Pan
16:02:47 <Zakim> - +30281039aaee
16:02:47 <Zakim> - +1.518.276.aaaa
16:02:47 <Zakim> - +1.518.633.aagg
16:02:48 <Zakim> -DavidSchaengold
16:02:50 <Zakim> -VinhNguyen
16:02:52 <paolo_> paolo_ has left #prov
16:02:52 <Zakim> -paulo
16:02:54 <Zakim> -kai
16:02:57 <Zakim> -paolo_
16:02:58 <Zakim> -smiles
16:03:00 <Zakim> -??P21
16:03:02 <Zakim> -jun
16:03:05 <Zakim> -??P46
16:03:07 <Zakim> -SamCoppens
16:03:09 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
16:03:13 <Zakim> -??P18
16:03:24 <luc> rrsagent, set log public
#GK sorting his emails out
#16:03:34 <GK> gk@ninebynine.org, gklyne@gmail.com
16:03:36 <Zakim> -dgarijo
16:03:41 <pgroth> pgroth has left #prov
16:03:44 <luc> rrsagent, draft minutes 
16:03:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-prov-minutes.html luc
16:03:46 <Zakim> -GK
16:03:52 <luc> trackbot, end telcon 
16:03:52 <trackbot> Sorry, luc, I don't understand 'trackbot, end telcon '. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
16:03:59 <Zakim> -luc
16:04:40 <Zakim> -Lena
16:05:43 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:06:31 <DeborahMcGuinness> DeborahMcGuinness has joined #prov
# SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC.  DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW.  SRCLINESUSED=00000517