The working group had been discussing expanding the applicability of role on the mailing list. No consensus was reached. It was decided in the call to leave the definition as is.
The recent revision of the DM to deal with bundles introduced the notion of a provenance locator. An issue was raised about it's complexity. To address this issue, a construct of contextualization was introduced. This construct was discussed on the call and some clarifications were introduced. The conclusion was for the main discussion participants (Luc, Simon, Tim) to quickly come to a definition of contextualization to be included in the DM for review by the group.
There were some concerns about the notion of completeness to do with collections. Tim proposed a revision to eliminate this notion because of possible concerns around the open world assumption. After discussion, it became clear that the assertion of completeness did not violate the open world assumption. Luc was actioned to add text making this clarification in the DM text.
14:48:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-irc ←
14:48:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:48:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be ←
14:48:39 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot ←
14:48:40 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:48:40 <trackbot> Date: 07 June 2012
14:48:44 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV
Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV ←
14:48:44 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes ←
14:49:02 <pgroth> Agenda:http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.06.07
14:49:13 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
14:49:17 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public
Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public ←
14:49:35 <pgroth> Regrets: Graham Klyne, Daniel Garijo
14:49:55 <pgroth> I need a scribe
Paul Groth: I need a scribe ←
14:49:59 <pgroth> anyone?
Paul Groth: anyone? ←
14:50:34 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started ←
14:50:41 <Zakim> +??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←
14:51:56 <pgroth> scribe anyone?
Paul Groth: scribe anyone? ←
14:54:31 <Zakim> +TomDN
Zakim IRC Bot: +TomDN ←
14:54:48 <pgroth> tom can you scribe?
Paul Groth: tom can you scribe? ←
14:55:01 <TomDN> noone signed up?
Tom De Nies: noone signed up? ←
14:55:05 <TomDN> sure
Tom De Nies: sure ←
14:55:09 <pgroth> no :-(
Paul Groth: no :-( ←
14:55:13 <pgroth> thanks
Paul Groth: thanks ←
14:55:23 <TomDN> np :)
Tom De Nies: np :) ←
14:55:26 <pgroth> Scribe: Tom De Nies
(Scribe set to Tom De Nies)
14:55:37 <TomDN> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:55:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P5, TomDN
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P5, TomDN ←
14:55:47 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P5 is me
Paul Groth: Zakim, ??P5 is me ←
14:55:47 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it ←
14:57:02 <Zakim> + +1.661.382.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.661.382.aaaa ←
14:57:24 <Zakim> +Luc
Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc ←
14:58:01 <Zakim> -TomDN
Zakim IRC Bot: -TomDN ←
14:58:01 <Luc> @paul, we need to draft the f2f2 agenda
Luc Moreau: @paul, we need to draft the f2f2 agenda ←
14:58:32 <pgroth> @luc: yes. next week I'm "on vacation" visiting parents so will have time
Paul Groth: @luc: yes. next week I'm "on vacation" visiting parents so will have time ←
14:58:58 <Zakim> +TomDN
Zakim IRC Bot: +TomDN ←
14:58:58 <Luc> @paul: OK
Luc Moreau: @paul: OK ←
14:59:07 <TomDN> sorry, phone dropped off for a second there
sorry, phone dropped off for a second there ←
14:59:49 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes ←
15:00:37 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:00:46 <Zakim> +tlebo
Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo ←
15:00:48 <Zakim> + +44.131.467.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.131.467.aabb ←
15:00:49 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:00:49 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:00:50 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:00:50 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:01:04 <SamCoppens> zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN
Sam Coppens: zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN ←
15:01:09 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens; got it ←
15:01:09 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me
Zakim, mute me ←
15:01:09 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN should now be muted ←
15:01:30 <Zakim> +??P30
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P30 ←
15:01:48 <Zakim> +??P20
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P20 ←
15:01:58 <Paolo> zakim, ??P20 is me
Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P20 is me ←
15:01:58 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it ←
15:02:08 <stain> I'm in a meeting like GK and dgarijo, but I'll join when/if you come to collection
Stian Soiland-Reyes: I'm in a meeting like GK and dgarijo, but I'll join when/if you come to collection ←
15:02:17 <pgroth> Topic: Admin
15:02:23 <stain> and follow the hasProvenanceIn discussion on the chat
Stian Soiland-Reyes: and follow the hasProvenanceIn discussion on the chat ←
15:02:25 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-05-31
Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-05-31 ←
15:02:33 <pgroth> proposed Minutes of the May 31 2012 Telecon
Paul Groth: proposed Minutes of the May 31 2012 Telecon ←
15:02:38 <TomDN> +1
+1 ←
15:02:42 <SamCoppens> +1
Sam Coppens: +1 ←
15:02:44 <dgarijo> +1
Daniel Garijo: +1 ←
15:02:46 <Curt> +1
Curt Tilmes: +1 ←
15:02:48 <jcheney> 0 - missed it
James Cheney: 0 - missed it ←
15:03:02 <smiles> +1
Simon Miles: +1 ←
15:03:07 <Paolo> 0 -- missed it
Paolo Missier: 0 -- missed it ←
15:03:11 <Zakim> +??P39
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P39 ←
15:03:27 <KhalidBelhajjame> zakim, ??P39 is me
Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P39 is me ←
15:03:28 <Zakim> +KhalidBelhajjame; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +KhalidBelhajjame; got it ←
15:03:31 <pgroth> accepted: Approved Minutes of the May 31 2012 Telecon
RESOLVED: Approved Minutes of the May 31 2012 Telecon ←
15:03:44 <Zakim> +??P41
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P41 ←
15:04:01 <pgroth> sandro are you there?
Paul Groth: sandro are you there? ←
15:04:09 <TomDN> pgroth: we confirmed that sandro sent the announcement to the mailing lists, and Graham has reviewed the constraints document
Paul Groth: we confirmed that sandro sent the announcement to the mailing lists, and Graham has reviewed the constraints document ←
15:04:32 <pgroth> Topic: Definition of role
Summary: The working group had been discussing expanding the applicability of role on the mailing list. No consensus was reached. It was decided in the call to leave the definition as is.
<pgroth> Summary: The working group had been discussing expanding the applicability of role on the mailing list. No consensus was reached. It was decided in the call to leave the definition as is.
15:05:05 <TomDN> pgroth: to summarize: we talked last week about expanding the definition of role
Paul Groth: to summarize: we talked last week about expanding the definition of role ←
15:05:49 <TomDN> ... We tried to come to a revised definition during the week, that included both the object and subject of role
... We tried to come to a revised definition during the week, that included both the object and subject of role ←
15:06:06 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice] ←
15:06:24 <satya> Zakim, GVoice is me
Satya Sahoo: Zakim, GVoice is me ←
15:06:24 <Zakim> +satya; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +satya; got it ←
15:06:27 <TomDN> ... No apparent consensus was reached
... No apparent consensus was reached ←
15:06:37 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:06:37 <smiles> q+
Simon Miles: q+ ←
15:06:46 <pgroth> ack smiles
Paul Groth: ack smiles ←
15:07:29 <TomDN> smiles: In my email, I wasn't suggesting that we would drop 'role' and just have 'type'.
Simon Miles: In my email, I wasn't suggesting that we would drop 'role' and just have 'type'. ←
15:07:46 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:07:48 <TomDN> ... I would propose keeping what we had, I liked the definition of role
... I would propose keeping what we had, I liked the definition of role ←
15:08:06 <TomDN> pgroth: What do you think about expanding the domain of role?
Paul Groth: What do you think about expanding the domain of role? ←
15:08:38 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:08:41 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
15:08:49 <pgroth> ack Luc
Paul Groth: ack Luc ←
15:08:56 <Zakim> +??P3
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3 ←
15:08:56 <TomDN> smiles: I don't have a strong objection to it, but I'm not quite sure what it imply
Simon Miles: I don't have a strong objection to it, but I'm not quite sure what it imply ←
15:09:07 <MacTed> Zakim, mute ??p3
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute ??p3 ←
15:09:07 <Zakim> ??P3 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ??P3 should now be muted ←
15:09:50 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:09:57 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
15:10:08 <pgroth> ack Luc
Paul Groth: ack Luc ←
15:10:13 <TomDN> Luc: Simon's suggestion seems good. We could keep the current definition and make sure all documents are compatible with it
Luc Moreau: Simon's suggestion seems good. We could keep the current definition and make sure all documents are compatible with it ←
15:10:15 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes ←
15:10:42 <TomDN> Luc: Would it cause a problem if you could not use roles in the Dictionary context?
Luc Moreau: Would it cause a problem if you could not use roles in the Dictionary context? ←
15:10:58 <TomDN> tlebo: I would have to have an extention property
Timothy Lebo: I would have to have an extention property ←
15:11:50 <Paolo> no objection
Paolo Missier: no objection ←
15:11:54 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:11:56 <TomDN> pgroth: I think people just wanted to make role a bit more powerful, but were fine with the definition. Is there any objection to leaving role as it is?
Paul Groth: I think people just wanted to make role a bit more powerful, but were fine with the definition. Is there any objection to leaving role as it is? ←
15:12:04 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:12:11 <Luc> @paul, for avoindance of doubt, can you record a resolution?
Luc Moreau: @paul, for avoindance of doubt, can you record a resolution? ←
15:12:33 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes ←
15:12:34 <pgroth> proposed: leave role as currently defined
PROPOSED: leave role as currently defined ←
15:12:37 <KhalidBelhajjame> +1
Khalid Belhajjame: +1 ←
15:12:42 <satya> +1
Satya Sahoo: +1 ←
15:12:45 <Paolo> +1
Paolo Missier: +1 ←
15:12:48 <TomDN> +1
+1 ←
15:12:53 <jcheney> 0 - haven't been following but no objection
James Cheney: 0 - haven't been following but no objection ←
15:12:59 <SamCoppens> +1
Sam Coppens: +1 ←
15:13:21 <smiles> +1
Simon Miles: +1 ←
15:13:24 <MacTed> +0
Ted Thibodeau: +0 ←
15:13:31 <CraigTrim> no objection
Craig Trim: no objection ←
15:13:39 <pgroth> accepted: leave role as currently defined
RESOLVED: leave role as currently defined ←
15:13:55 <pgroth> Topic: Contextualization
Summary: The recent revision of the DM to deal with bundles introduced the notion of a provenance locator. An issue was raised about it's complexity. To address this issue, a construct of contextualization was introduced. This construct was discussed on the call and some clarifications were introduced. The conclusion was for the main discussion participants (Luc, Simon, Tim) to quickly come to a definition of contextualization to be included in the DM for review by the group.
<pgroth> Summary: The recent revision of the DM to deal with bundles introduced the notion of a provenance locator. An issue was raised about it's complexity. To address this issue, a construct of contextualization was introduced. This construct was discussed on the call and some clarifications were introduced. The conclusion was for the main discussion participants (Luc, Simon, Tim) to quickly come to a definition of contextualization to be included in the DM for review by the group.
15:14:19 <TomDN> pgroth: Luc, can you give an overview?
Paul Groth: Luc, can you give an overview? ←
15:14:44 <TomDN> Luc: About a week ago, GK raised an issue that the provenance locator was too complex.
Luc Moreau: About a week ago, GK raised an issue that the provenance locator was too complex. ←
15:15:36 <TomDN> ... Reasons: Prov locator included things from the PAQ that would better not be mixed with the DM. THis was solved by removing these from the DM.
... Reasons: Prov locator included things from the PAQ that would better not be mixed with the DM. THis was solved by removing these from the DM. ←
15:15:49 <pgroth> @sandro are you there?
Paul Groth: @sandro are you there? ←
15:16:08 <TomDN> ... A second objection was that it seemed as a special case of derivation, and it might be better to use things that we already have.
... A second objection was that it seemed as a special case of derivation, and it might be better to use things that we already have. ←
15:16:11 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd6-contextualization.html
Luc Moreau: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd6-contextualization.html ←
15:16:12 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here? ←
15:16:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, +1.661.382.aaaa, Luc, TomDN (muted), MacTed (muted), tlebo, +44.131.467.aabb, ??P30, Paolo, KhalidBelhajjame, ??P41, satya, ??P3 (muted), Curt_Tilmes
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, +1.661.382.aaaa, Luc, TomDN (muted), MacTed (muted), tlebo, +44.131.467.aabb, ??P30, Paolo, KhalidBelhajjame, ??P41, satya, ??P3 (muted), Curt_Tilmes ←
15:16:15 <Zakim> TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens
Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens ←
15:16:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see satya, jun, zednik, stephenc, CraigTrim, KhalidBelhajjame, smiles, Paolo, SamCoppens, tlebo, Curt, jcheney, TomDN, Zakim, RRSAgent, pgroth, Luc, dgarijo, MacTed,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see satya, jun, zednik, stephenc, CraigTrim, KhalidBelhajjame, smiles, Paolo, SamCoppens, tlebo, Curt, jcheney, TomDN, Zakim, RRSAgent, pgroth, Luc, dgarijo, MacTed, ←
15:16:15 <Zakim> ... stain, trackbot, sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: ... stain, trackbot, sandro ←
15:16:29 <TomDN> ... We looked at this during the weekend, and came up with above.
... We looked at this during the weekend, and came up with above. ←
15:16:29 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd6-contextualization.html#term-contextualization
Luc Moreau: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd6-contextualization.html#term-contextualization ←
15:17:01 <TomDN> ... The idea is that a relation can be introduced that says that some thing is a contextualization of another thing.
... The idea is that a relation can be introduced that says that some thing is a contextualization of another thing. ←
15:17:24 <TomDN> ... Something that is a contextualization of another presents all aspects of the latter in a given context specified by descriptions found in a bundle.
... Something that is a contextualization of another presents all aspects of the latter in a given context specified by descriptions found in a bundle. ←
15:17:44 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:17:56 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:18:03 <TomDN> ... Discussion with tim and simon seems to be reaching consensus.
... Discussion with tim and simon seems to be reaching consensus. ←
15:18:17 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:18:28 <TomDN> ... In time, the provenance locator would disappear form prov DM, and the contextualization remains
... In time, the provenance locator would disappear from prov DM, and the contextualization remains ←
15:18:37 <TomDN> s/form/from
15:19:15 <TomDN> pgroth: how does this relate to alternate/specialization?
Paul Groth: how does this relate to alternate/specialization? ←
15:19:48 <smiles> q+
Simon Miles: q+ ←
15:19:56 <TomDN> Luc: difference with specialization is that contextualization looks at the aspects in a given context (bundle)
Luc Moreau: difference with specialization is that contextualization looks at the aspects in a given context (bundle) ←
15:20:06 <pgroth> ack smiles
Paul Groth: ack smiles ←
15:20:25 <Paolo> q+
Paolo Missier: q+ ←
15:20:33 <TomDN> smiles: At the moment it is a bit ambiguous
Simon Miles: At the moment it is a bit ambiguous ←
15:21:00 <TomDN> ... I suggest expressing contextualization as a relation between entity and bundle
... I suggest expressing contextualization as a relation between entity and bundle ←
15:21:20 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy? ←
15:21:30 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Paolo (10%)
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Paolo (10%) ←
15:21:30 <Luc> i couldn't understand simon
Luc Moreau: i couldn't understand simon ←
15:22:25 <TomDN> smiles: I don't have a problem with the current definition of contextualization, but changing the relationshi
Simon Miles: I don't have a problem with the current definition of contextualization, but changing the relationshi ←
15:22:40 <smiles> q+
Simon Miles: q+ ←
15:22:43 <pgroth> ack Paolo
Paul Groth: ack Paolo ←
15:22:53 <TomDN> ... to an entity-bundle relationship might help distinguishing it from specialization
... to an entity-bundle relationship might help distinguishing it from specialization ←
15:23:57 <tlebo> contextualization is the specialization of a "nonlocal" entity by "fixing" the bundle that it is in. Once this is done, one can then use specialization _again_ to link a "local" entity to a "nonlocal" entity.
Timothy Lebo: contextualization is the specialization of a "nonlocal" entity by "fixing" the bundle that it is in. Once this is done, one can then use specialization _again_ to link a "local" entity to a "nonlocal" entity. ←
15:24:10 <TomDN> paolo: Is this as in importing provenance from a different bundle?
Paolo Missier: Is this as in importing provenance from a different bundle? ←
15:24:20 <pgroth> ack paolo
Paul Groth: ack paolo ←
15:24:36 <TomDN> ... saying that "everything I say in that bundle about this entity, is also true in this bundle"
... saying that "everything I say in that bundle about this entity, is also true in this bundle" ←
15:24:42 <Luc> bundle ex:run1 activity(ex:a1, 2011-11-16T16:00:00,2011-11-16T17:00:00) //duration: 1hour wasAssociatedWith(ex:a1,ex:Bob,[prov:role="controller"]) endBundle
Luc Moreau: bundle ex:run1 activity(ex:a1, 2011-11-16T16:00:00,2011-11-16T17:00:00) //duration: 1hour wasAssociatedWith(ex:a1,ex:Bob,[prov:role="controller"]) endBundle ←
15:24:59 <pgroth> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd6-contextualization.html
Paul Groth: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd6-contextualization.html ←
15:25:44 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:25:51 <TomDN> Luc: I think so (see example)
Luc Moreau: I think so (see example) ←
15:26:07 <TomDN> Paolo: this is close to what I had in mind
Paolo Missier: this is close to what I had in mind ←
15:26:32 <tlebo> contextualization is the specialization of a "nonlocal" entity by "fixing" the bundle that it is in. Once this is done, one can then use specialization _again_ to link a "local" entity to (the just-contextualized specialization of) the "nonlocal" entity.
Timothy Lebo: contextualization is the specialization of a "nonlocal" entity by "fixing" the bundle that it is in. Once this is done, one can then use specialization _again_ to link a "local" entity to (the just-contextualized specialization of) the "nonlocal" entity. ←
15:27:02 <TomDN> Luc: it is not really "importing"
Luc Moreau: it is not really "importing" ←
15:27:25 <TomDN> ... That is an implementation choice, but it is not specified anywhere.
... That is an implementation choice, but it is not specified anywhere. ←
15:27:39 <Paolo> ack
Paolo Missier: ack ←
15:27:46 <Paolo> q?
Paolo Missier: q? ←
15:27:47 <pgroth> ack smiles
Paul Groth: ack smiles ←
15:28:17 <Zakim> +??P12
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12 ←
15:28:24 <TomDN> smiles: In the current DM, we say that a bundle is a set of descriptions. There's no reason for that set not to be contradictory with other sets.
Simon Miles: In the current DM, we say that a bundle is a set of descriptions. There's no reason for that set not to be contradictory with other sets. ←
15:29:00 <TomDN> ... My concern is that with this contextualization, we seem to suggest that there is some sort of coherence.
... My concern is that with this contextualization, we seem to suggest that there is some sort of coherence. ←
15:29:55 <pgroth> +q
Paul Groth: +q ←
15:30:09 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:30:24 <tlebo> q+ to propose the definition: contextualization is the specialization of a "nonlocal" entity by "fixing" the bundle that it is in. Once this is done, one can then use specialization _again_ to link a "local" entity to (the just-contextualized specialization of) the "nonlocal" entity.
Timothy Lebo: q+ to propose the definition: contextualization is the specialization of a "nonlocal" entity by "fixing" the bundle that it is in. Once this is done, one can then use specialization _again_ to link a "local" entity to (the just-contextualized specialization of) the "nonlocal" entity. ←
15:30:29 <pgroth> ack pgroth
Paul Groth: ack pgroth ←
15:30:31 <TomDN> Luc: It's not our aim to imply any consistency
Luc Moreau: It's not our aim to imply any consistency ←
15:30:45 <TomDN> smiles: OK, but then we should specify this clearly.
Simon Miles: OK, but then we should specify this clearly. ←
15:30:46 <pgroth> q+
Paul Groth: q+ ←
15:30:47 <Zakim> -??P12
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P12 ←
15:31:09 <TomDN> tlebo: proposes the above definition.
Timothy Lebo: proposes the above definition. ←
15:31:19 <tlebo> q-
Timothy Lebo: q- ←
15:32:13 <pgroth> ack pgroth
Paul Groth: ack pgroth ←
15:32:28 <Zakim> +??P12
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12 ←
15:32:31 <satya> q+
Satya Sahoo: q+ ←
15:32:42 <TomDN> pgroth: 1. How core is it to the model? 2. Are we close to a definition?
Paul Groth: 1. How core is it to the model? 2. Are we close to a definition? ←
15:33:45 <TomDN> Luc: There are examples of where we need this construct. And currently there is no way to assert them.
Luc Moreau: There are examples of where we need this construct. And currently there is no way to assert them. ←
15:33:53 <tlebo> BTW, my definition is paired up with the example that I focus on: tool:analysis01 { tool:Bob1 prov:specializationOf [ a prov:Entity; prov:ContextualizedEntity; prov:identifier ex:Bob; prov:inContext ex:run1; ]; . }
Timothy Lebo: BTW, my definition is paired up with the example that I focus on: tool:analysis01 { tool:Bob1 prov:specializationOf [ a prov:Entity; prov:ContextualizedEntity; prov:identifier ex:Bob; prov:inContext ex:run1; ]; . } ←
15:34:25 <pgroth> ack satya
Paul Groth: ack satya ←
15:34:26 <TomDN> ... I like Tim's definition, and can agree with Simon's suggestion. We hope to converge within a few days.
... I like Tim's definition, and can agree with Simon's suggestion. We hope to converge within a few days. ←
15:34:45 <tlebo> bundles don't change.
Timothy Lebo: bundles don't change. ←
15:34:48 <TomDN> satya: What happens if the bundle is changed after a contextualization?
Satya Sahoo: What happens if the bundle is changed after a contextualization? ←
15:35:00 <TomDN> ... Does this propagate?
... Does this propagate? ←
15:35:21 <tlebo> +1 @luc, if the bundle changes, then you have a new bundle.
Timothy Lebo: +1 @luc, if the bundle changes, then you have a new bundle. ←
15:35:24 <TomDN> Luc: If a bundle changes, it is another bundle
Luc Moreau: If a bundle changes, it is another bundle ←
15:36:03 <TomDN> satya: So there is no way that we will link those "updated" bundles?
Satya Sahoo: So there is no way that we will link those "updated" bundles? ←
15:36:09 <tlebo> @satya, link a revised bundle to it's predecessor via PROV constructs specializationOf and wasRevisedFrom .
Timothy Lebo: @satya, link a revised bundle to it's predecessor via PROV constructs specializationOf and wasRevisedFrom . ←
15:36:17 <TomDN> ... (as is often done in the Semantic Web)
... (as is often done in the Semantic Web) ←
15:36:33 <tlebo> bundles are not buckets, they are sets of assertions.
Timothy Lebo: bundles are not buckets, they are sets of assertions. ←
15:36:59 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:37:01 <tlebo> we have ways to link the bundles -- existing PROV constructs.
Timothy Lebo: we have ways to link the bundles -- existing PROV constructs. ←
15:37:23 <TomDN> @satya: indeed, the assertions don't change, just the bundle
@satya: indeed, the assertions don't change, just the bundle ←
15:38:03 <TomDN> Luc: See Tim's comment.
Luc Moreau: See Tim's comment. ←
15:38:22 <TomDN> ... I don't think we changed the semantics with this construct.
... I don't think we changed the semantics with this construct. ←
15:38:44 <TomDN> ... If you change a set of assertions, you need to give it a different name.
... If you change a set of assertions, you need to give it a different name. ←
15:38:55 <satya> agent(tool:ratedBob1, [perf:rating="good"])
Satya Sahoo: agent(tool:ratedBob1, [perf:rating="good"]) ←
15:39:46 <TomDN> Luc: It seems the concern is rather to the notion of bundle, than to contextualization?
Luc Moreau: It seems the concern is rather to the notion of bundle, than to contextualization? ←
15:39:49 <TomDN> satya: yes
Satya Sahoo: yes ←
15:40:25 <tlebo> @satya where is "bundle consistency" proclaimed in PROV? bundles are just sets of assertions, regardless of consistency.
Timothy Lebo: @satya where is "bundle consistency" proclaimed in PROV? bundles are just sets of assertions, regardless of consistency. ←
15:41:08 <tlebo> bundling assertions does not imply consistency.
Timothy Lebo: bundling assertions does not imply consistency. ←
15:41:36 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:41:37 <TomDN> satya: Since it is included as an example with the definition, it seems to someone reading the definition without knowing the discussion, that we are implying some semantics
Satya Sahoo: Since it is included as an example with the definition, it seems to someone reading the definition without knowing the discussion, that we are implying some semantics ←
15:42:24 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:42:24 <TomDN> pgroth: Since there seems to be some convergence to this construct, we should try to work toward a definition everyone agrees with via the mailing list
Paul Groth: Since there seems to be some convergence to this construct, we should try to work toward a definition everyone agrees with via the mailing list ←
15:42:38 <pgroth> Topic: Collections
Summary: There were some concerns about the notion of completeness to do with collections. Tim proposed a revision to eliminate this notion because of possible concerns around the open world assumption. After discussion, it became clear that the assertion of completeness did not violate the open world assumption. Luc was actioned to add text making this clarification in the DM text.
<pgroth> Summary: There were some concerns about the notion of completeness to do with collections. Tim proposed a revision to eliminate this notion because of possible concerns around the open world assumption. After discussion, it became clear that the assertion of completeness did not violate the open world assumption. Luc was actioned to add text making this clarification in the DM text.
15:42:41 <Paolo> (I'm afraid I am a lot more confused about this now than I was 1/2 hour ago...)
Paolo Missier: (I'm afraid I am a lot more confused about this now than I was 1/2 hour ago...) ←
15:43:10 <Zakim> + +7.894.70.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +7.894.70.aacc ←
15:43:11 <TomDN> pgroth: Tim proposed some changes to Collections
Paul Groth: Tim proposed some changes to Collections ←
15:43:22 <TomDN> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Jun/0133.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Jun/0133.html ←
15:44:10 <stainPhone> Zakim, +7.894.70.aacc is stain
Stian Soiland-Reyes: Zakim, +7.894.70.aacc is stain ←
15:44:19 <TomDN> tlebo: only changes that affect the DM:
Timothy Lebo: only changes that affect the DM: ←
15:44:21 <Zakim> +stain; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +stain; got it ←
15:44:29 <TomDN> ... - the notion of complete collection
... - the notion of complete collection ←
15:44:32 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:44:58 <TomDN> ... This optional attribute would be removed and changed to a domain extention
... This optional attribute would be removed and changed to a domain extention ←
15:45:19 <TomDN> ... This is based on several concerns received about 'complete' Collections
... This is based on several concerns received about 'complete' Collections ←
15:45:36 <TomDN> ... in an open world
... in an open world ←
15:46:06 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:47:02 <TomDN> Luc: Something more fundamental needs to be discussed...
Luc Moreau: Something more fundamental needs to be discussed... ←
15:47:28 <TomDN> ... Currently, we have a notion of empty Collection/Dictionary
... Currently, we have a notion of empty Collection/Dictionary ←
15:47:36 <TomDN> ... and a notion of insertion
... and a notion of insertion ←
15:47:37 <Zakim> -satya
Zakim IRC Bot: -satya ←
15:48:01 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice] ←
15:48:17 <TomDN> ... If you start with an empty Dictionary, and insert something, you have full knowledge about the Dictionary
... If you start with an empty Dictionary, and insert something, you have full knowledge about the Dictionary ←
15:48:27 <satya> Zakim, [GVoice] is satya
Satya Sahoo: Zakim, [GVoice] is satya ←
15:48:27 <Zakim> +satya; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +satya; got it ←
15:48:30 <TomDN> ... Dito for removal
... Dito for removal ←
15:48:31 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:49:03 <Zakim> -??P12
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P12 ←
15:49:35 <TomDN> ... What we call a 'complete membership' when you are inserting into an empty Dictionary.
... What we call a 'complete membership' when you are inserting into an empty Dictionary. ←
15:50:17 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:50:18 <TomDN> ... The normal memberOf was added to allow insertion into an unspecified Dictionary
... The normal memberOf was added to allow insertion into an unspecified Dictionary ←
15:50:22 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:50:42 <tlebo> FWIW, my work on Dictionary was centering around the example at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership and http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl
Timothy Lebo: FWIW, my work on Dictionary was centering around the example at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership and http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl ←
15:51:02 <TomDN> pgroth: There's a difference between asserting that something is closed, and the thing actually being closed.
Paul Groth: There's a difference between asserting that something is closed, and the thing actually being closed. ←
15:51:14 <tlebo> +1 pgroth
Timothy Lebo: +1 pgroth ←
15:51:15 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:51:30 <stainPhone> q+
Stian Soiland-Reyes: q+ ←
15:51:39 <pgroth> ack stainPhone
Paul Groth: ack stainPhone ←
15:52:13 <tlebo> I'm using Paul's former to agree with keeping "completeness" in (asserting that something is closed). I'm ignoring his latter (the thing actually being closed).
Timothy Lebo: I'm using Paul's former to agree with keeping "completeness" in (asserting that something is closed). I'm ignoring his latter (the thing actually being closed). ←
15:53:07 <TomDN> (could you put your question on IRC stain? (sorry, missed it))
(could you put your question on IRC stain? (sorry, missed it)) ←
15:53:11 <stainPhone> Ok
Stian Soiland-Reyes: Ok ←
15:53:51 <TomDN> Luc: what the model allows it that if you inserted e1 in d1, and that lead to d2.
Luc Moreau: what the model allows it that if you inserted e1 in d1, and that lead to d2. ←
15:54:08 <TomDN> ... you can still have that you insert something into d1, and that becomes d3
... you can still have that you insert something into d1, and that becomes d3 ←
15:54:27 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:55:09 <TomDN> pgroth: What is the conflict of what Tim proposes and the current DM?
Paul Groth: What is the conflict of what Tim proposes and the current DM? ←
15:55:20 <Paolo> q+
Paolo Missier: q+ ←
15:55:22 <stainPhone> I asked if dictionary insertions and removals are strictly functional, or if you could have both wasInsertedFrom(a,b,(k1,v1)) and second wasInsertedFrom(a,b,(k2,v2)) with additional key value pair
Stian Soiland-Reyes: I asked if dictionary insertions and removals are strictly functional, or if you could have both wasInsertedFrom(a,b,(k1,v1)) and second wasInsertedFrom(a,b,(k2,v2)) with additional key value pair ←
15:55:33 <stainPhone> Luc said that no, only one assertion. (right?)
Stian Soiland-Reyes: Luc said that no, only one assertion. (right?) ←
15:55:35 <TomDN> Luc: not much. If we drop the attribute, we can still assert everything. We have the same expressivity
Luc Moreau: not much. If we drop the attribute, we can still assert everything. We have the same expressivity ←
15:57:08 <KhalidBelhajjame> Yes Paolo, I remember the initial discussion
Khalid Belhajjame: Yes Paolo, I remember the initial discussion ←
15:57:14 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:57:18 <pgroth> ack Paolo
Paul Groth: ack Paolo ←
15:57:23 <tlebo> FWIW, I've catalyzed this proposal for a variety of people. I've personally withdrawn my objections, but haven't heard others continuing to object.
Timothy Lebo: FWIW, I've catalyzed this proposal for a variety of people. I've personally withdrawn my objections, but haven't heard others continuing to object. ←
15:57:53 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:57:58 <TomDN> Paolo: This seems to go back to a previous discussion we had about the Open World assumption, and why we introduced the notion of completeness in the first place
Paolo Missier: This seems to go back to a previous discussion we had about the Open World assumption, and why we introduced the notion of completeness in the first place ←
15:58:03 <Zakim> -satya
Zakim IRC Bot: -satya ←
15:58:10 <tlebo> yes, so I don't see anybody objecting.
Timothy Lebo: yes, so I don't see anybody objecting. ←
15:58:16 <stainPhone> Who are they?
Stian Soiland-Reyes: Who are they? ←
15:58:18 <Luc> who was objecting?
Luc Moreau: who was objecting? ←
15:58:33 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:58:38 <TomDN> pgroth: does anyone object to leaving it as it is now?
Paul Groth: does anyone object to leaving it as it is now? ←
15:58:46 <TomDN> (silence)
(silence) ←
15:58:47 <stainPhone> I'll pay them a visit! ;)
Stian Soiland-Reyes: I'll pay them a visit! ;) ←
15:59:08 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice] ←
15:59:27 <Zakim> -??P3
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P3 ←
15:59:28 <TomDN> pgroth: Maybe we should just put somewhere: "You can assert completeness, but you can never guarantee it"
Paul Groth: Maybe we should just put somewhere: "You can assert completeness, but you can never guarantee it" ←
15:59:40 <tlebo> +1 paul, we're asserting it and not guaranteeing it. This is what resolved my objection.
Timothy Lebo: +1 paul, we're asserting it and not guaranteeing it. This is what resolved my objection. ←
15:59:41 <pgroth> action: Luc to add some text around collections to clarify completness
ACTION: Luc to add some text around collections to clarify completness ←
15:59:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-91 - Add some text around collections to clarify completness [on Luc Moreau - due 2012-06-14].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-91 - Add some text around collections to clarify completness [on Luc Moreau - due 2012-06-14]. ←
15:59:46 <TomDN> Luc: will add some text for this.
Luc Moreau: will add some text for this. ←
16:00:12 <Paolo> well can you guarantee anything in provenance that you can express??
Paolo Missier: well can you guarantee anything in provenance that you can express?? ←
16:00:13 <KhalidBelhajjame> bye
Khalid Belhajjame: bye ←
16:00:15 <Zakim> -??P30
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P30 ←
16:00:19 <Zakim> -KhalidBelhajjame
Zakim IRC Bot: -KhalidBelhajjame ←
16:00:21 <Zakim> -Luc
Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc ←
16:00:23 <Zakim> - +44.131.467.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: - +44.131.467.aabb ←
16:00:24 <Zakim> -Paolo
Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo ←
16:00:24 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes ←
16:00:26 <TomDN> no prob :)
no prob :) ←
16:00:27 <pgroth> thanks tom
Paul Groth: thanks tom ←
16:00:28 <Zakim> -stain
Zakim IRC Bot: -stain ←
16:00:32 <Zakim> - +1.661.382.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.661.382.aaaa ←
16:00:33 <SamCoppens> bye
Sam Coppens: bye ←
16:00:33 <Zakim> -[GVoice]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[GVoice] ←
16:00:38 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public
Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public ←
16:00:40 <Zakim> -??P41
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P41 ←
16:00:41 <tlebo> bye!
Timothy Lebo: bye! ←
16:00:42 <TomDN> @ Paolo: id say no, then it'd be called Trust
@ Paolo: id say no, then it'd be called Trust ←
16:00:43 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
16:00:44 <Zakim> -tlebo
Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo ←
16:00:45 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes
Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
16:00:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-minutes.html pgroth
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-minutes.html pgroth ←
16:00:52 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon
Paul Groth: trackbot, end telcon ←
16:00:52 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees ←
16:00:52 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TomDN, pgroth, +1.661.382.aaaa, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, tlebo, +44.131.467.aabb, MacTed, SamCoppens, Paolo, KhalidBelhajjame, satya, stain,
Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been TomDN, pgroth, +1.661.382.aaaa, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, tlebo, +44.131.467.aabb, MacTed, SamCoppens, Paolo, KhalidBelhajjame, satya, stain, ←
16:00:55 <Zakim> ... [GVoice]
Zakim IRC Bot: ... [GVoice] ←
16:01:00 <TomDN> Zakim, unmute me
Zakim, unmute me ←
16:01:00 <Zakim> TomDN should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN should no longer be muted ←
16:01:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←
16:01:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-minutes.html trackbot
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-minutes.html trackbot ←
16:01:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye ←
16:01:01 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-actions.rdf :
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-actions.rdf : ←
16:01:01 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Luc to add some text around collections to clarify completness [1]
ACTION: Luc to add some text around collections to clarify completness [1] ←
16:01:01 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-irc#T15-59-41
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-prov-irc#T15-59-41 ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#2) generated 2012-06-12 18:26:55 UTC by 'pgroth', comments: 'added summaries'