Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 17 November 2011

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.17
Seen
Curt Tilmes, Graham Klyne, James Cheney, Kai Eckert, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Sam Coppens, Sandro Hawke, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Stephan Zednik, Stian Soiland-Reyes, Ted Thibodeau, Timothy Lebo, Vinh Nguyen, Yolanda Gil
Chair
Luc Moreau
Scribe
James Cheney
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. the minutes of the Nov. 10 telecon link
  2. 'To Release PAQ document as a first public working draft' link
Topics
  1. Admin

    Minutes of last week's teleconference were approved and the outstanding action on Satya was closed.

    1. Review minutes of last week's telecon

    2. Review actions

  2. F2F2

    The second face to face meeting will take place on February 2-3, in Amsterdam. Paul will make all details (venue, hotel, etc) available shortly.

  3. PAQ document

    The group voted to release the PAQ document as a first public working draft. It was agreed that some editorial comments should be written explicit as note, to avoid confusing readers.

  4. Prov-O

    the prov-o team has released the prov-o document for internal review. Please review it. Next week we will decide if we can release it as a first public working draft.

  5. PROV-PRIMER

    The primer team produced a first version of the document. Please review it and comment on it. We will decide next week if it can be released as a first public working draft. For both the prov-o and prov-primer documents, we discussed the pros and cons of releasing these documents synchronously with new versions of prov-dm. We agreed not to synchronize releases, to avoid publication delays.

15:42:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-prov-irc

15:42:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

15:42:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

15:42:39 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

15:42:39 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV

Luc Moreau: Zakim, this will be PROV

15:42:40 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:42:40 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 18 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 18 minutes

15:42:40 <trackbot> Date: 17 November 2011
15:42:50 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.17
15:43:00 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
15:43:05 <Luc> Scribe: James Cheney

(Scribe set to James Cheney)

15:43:13 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, make logs public

15:52:49 <Luc> zakim, who is on the phone?

(No events recorded for 9 minutes)

Luc Moreau: zakim, who is on the phone?

15:52:49 <Zakim> apparently SW_(OWL)12:00PM has ended, Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: apparently SW_(OWL)12:00PM has ended, Luc

15:52:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, Zakim, trackbot, sandro, stain

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, Zakim, trackbot, sandro, stain

15:53:31 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV

Luc Moreau: Zakim, this will be PROV

15:53:31 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes

15:56:08 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

15:56:15 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

15:56:21 <Paolo> zakim, ??P2 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P2 is me

15:56:21 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it

15:57:22 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.238.059.aaaa

15:57:37 <Luc> zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me

Luc Moreau: zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me

15:57:37 <Zakim> +Luc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc; got it

15:58:37 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes

15:58:44 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:58:51 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo

15:59:07 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPCaller] is me

Paul Groth: Zakim, [IPCaller] is me

15:59:07 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

16:00:57 <Zakim> +??P19

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P19

16:01:40 <Zakim> +??P44

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P44

16:01:58 <tlebo> zakim, who is on the phone?

Timothy Lebo: zakim, who is on the phone?

16:02:02 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.276.aabb

16:02:18 <Zakim> +??P43

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P43

16:02:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see Paolo, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, pgroth, Satya_Sahoo, ??P19, ??P44, +1.518.276.aabb, ??P43

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Paolo, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, pgroth, Satya_Sahoo, ??P19, ??P44, +1.518.276.aabb, ??P43

16:02:22 <Luc> james, are you ready to scribe?

Luc Moreau: james, are you ready to scribe?

16:02:30 <GK> zakim, i may be ??p44

Graham Klyne: zakim, i may be ??p44

16:02:42 <jcheney> Yes

Yes

16:02:42 <Luc> @jcheney, james, are you ready to scribe?

Luc Moreau: @jcheney, james, are you ready to scribe?

16:02:48 <Zakim> sorry, GK, I do not understand your question

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, GK, I do not understand your question

16:02:52 <Zakim> +??P27

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27

16:03:11 <Zakim> +[OpenLink]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[OpenLink]

16:03:14 <Zakim> +stain

Zakim IRC Bot: +stain

<luc>Topic: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: Minutes of last week's teleconference were approved and the outstanding action on Satya was closed.

<luc>Summary: Minutes of last week's teleconference were approved and the outstanding action on Satya was closed.
16:03:19 <Zakim> -??P43

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P43

16:03:20 <tlebo> zakim, aabb is tlebo

Timothy Lebo: zakim, aabb is tlebo

16:03:20 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me

16:03:21 <MacTed> zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: zakim, mute me

16:03:28 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo; got it

16:03:30 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

16:03:32 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

16:03:35 <satya> F2F?

Satya Sahoo: F2F?

16:03:44 <jcheney> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.17
16:03:44 <Luc> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the Nov. 10 telecon

Luc Moreau: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the Nov. 10 telecon

16:03:53 <jcheney> SubTopic: Review minutes of last week's telecon

1.1. Review minutes of last week's telecon

16:03:53 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

16:03:54 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

16:03:58 <jcheney> +1

+1

16:04:00 <GK> +1

Graham Klyne: +1

16:04:04 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

16:04:11 <stain> 0

Stian Soiland-Reyes: 0

16:04:16 <stain> (not there)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: (not there)

16:04:18 <Zakim> +??P52

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P52

16:04:22 <Paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

16:04:22 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

16:04:33 <Luc> Accepted: the minutes of the Nov. 10 telecon

RESOLVED: the minutes of the Nov. 10 telecon

16:04:34 <GK> zakim, I am ??P52

Graham Klyne: zakim, I am ??P52

16:04:34 <Zakim> +GK; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it

16:04:42 <Zakim> +Yolanda

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yolanda

16:04:51 <jcheney> subTopic: Review actions

1.2. Review actions

16:05:13 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

16:05:26 <Zakim> + +329331aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +329331aacc

16:05:33 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46974/f2f2_options/results

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46974/f2f2_options/results

16:05:36 <jcheney> Luc: Action to Satya closed

Luc Moreau: Action to Satya closed

16:05:40 <SamCoppens> zakim, +329331aacc is me

Sam Coppens: zakim, +329331aacc is me

16:05:40 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens; got it

16:05:41 <jcheney> Topic: F2F2

2. F2F2

Summary: The second face to face meeting will take place on February 2-3, in Amsterdam. Paul will make all details (venue, hotel, etc) available shortly.

<luc>Summary: The second face to face meeting will take place on February 2-3, in Amsterdam. Paul will make all details (venue, hotel, etc) available shortly.
16:05:52 <pgroth> jcheney it should be closed

Paul Groth: jcheney it should be closed

16:06:03 <Paolo> not allowed :-(

Paolo Missier: not allowed :-(

16:06:12 <satya> @James, I think Luc said that the action is now closed

Satya Sahoo: @James, I think Luc said that the action is now closed

16:06:19 <jcheney> Do'h.

Do'h.

16:06:31 <stain> and probably easier to travel to from US

Stian Soiland-Reyes: and probably easier to travel to from US

16:06:32 <jcheney> Luc: action to be closed [correction]

Luc Moreau: action to be closed [correction]

16:06:39 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:06:43 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

16:06:46 <Zakim> +??P63

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P63

16:06:52 <jcheney> Luc: Strong preference for Amsterdam Feb 2-3

Luc Moreau: Strong preference for Amsterdam Feb 2-3

16:07:09 <jcheney> pgroth: Will send information about travel to/from meeting place - close to airport

Paul Groth: Will send information about travel to/from meeting place - close to airport

16:07:27 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

16:07:31 <stain> train from AMS to city centre is fairly fast as far as I remember

Stian Soiland-Reyes: train from AMS to city centre is fairly fast as far as I remember

16:07:33 <Luc> Action: pgroth to confirm F2F2 venue and make hotel suggestions

ACTION: pgroth to confirm F2F2 venue and make hotel suggestions

16:07:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-43 - Confirm F2F2 venue and make hotel suggestions  [on Paul Groth - due 2011-11-24].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-43 - Confirm F2F2 venue and make hotel suggestions [on Paul Groth - due 2011-11-24].

16:07:35 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q-

16:07:42 <Luc> ack sat

Luc Moreau: ack sat

16:08:00 <jcheney> Satya: Logistics.  Letters from Paul/university for visa purposes?

Satya Sahoo: Logistics. Letters from Paul/university for visa purposes?

16:08:17 <jcheney> pgroth: Will include this in the visit information

Paul Groth: Will include this in the visit information

16:08:24 <jcheney> Scribe: jcheney
16:08:38 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:08:54 <Zakim> +sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +sandro

16:08:59 <Zakim> + +1.937.343.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.937.343.aadd

16:09:12 <Vinh_> zakim, +1.937.343.aadd is me

Vinh Nguyen: zakim, +1.937.343.aadd is me

16:09:12 <Zakim> +Vinh_; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Vinh_; got it

16:09:14 <stain> we need a new fight for F2F now that both EntityInRole and IVPof is gone

Stian Soiland-Reyes: we need a new fight for F2F now that both EntityInRole and IVPof is gone

16:09:22 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:09:38 <pgroth> video conferencing

Paul Groth: video conferencing

16:09:40 <jcheney> Luc: pgroth, will there be university facilities?

Luc Moreau: pgroth, will there be university facilities?

16:09:44 <jcheney> pgroth: Still checking

Paul Groth: Still checking

16:09:51 <jcheney> Luc: Can people call in?

Luc Moreau: Can people call in?

16:09:53 <jcheney> pgroth: Yes

Paul Groth: Yes

16:10:06 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:10:12 <jcheney> pgroth: Internet also, video conferencing maybe

Paul Groth: Internet also, video conferencing maybe

16:10:18 <Luc> topic: PAQ document

3. PAQ document

Summary: The group voted to release the PAQ document as a first public working draft. It was agreed that some editorial comments should be written explicit as note, to avoid confusing readers.

<luc>Summary: The group voted to release the PAQ document as a first public working draft.  It was agreed that some editorial comments should be written explicit as note, to avoid confusing readers.
16:10:39 <pgroth> graham?

Paul Groth: graham?

16:10:44 <jcheney> Luc: Status update from Graham or pgroth

Luc Moreau: Status update from Graham or pgroth

16:10:49 <Zakim> +[ISI]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[ISI]

16:10:56 <Zakim> -Yolanda

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yolanda

16:11:13 <jcheney> Graham: Changes from last week

Graham Klyne: Changes from last week

16:11:27 <jcheney> pgroth: Defining provenance service section moved to same place as provenance URI

Paul Groth: Defining provenance service section moved to same place as provenance URI

16:11:35 <YolandaGil> Zakim, [ISI] is really me

Yolanda Gil: Zakim, [ISI] is really me

16:11:35 <Zakim> +YolandaGil; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +YolandaGil; got it

16:12:09 <jcheney> Graham: Clarify that entity-uri can use any scheme, need not be dereferenceable

Graham Klyne: Clarify that entity-uri can use any scheme, need not be dereferenceable

16:12:41 <jcheney> Graham: Text discussing fact that provenance information may not be stable as long as it doesn't contradict previous assertions

Graham Klyne: Text discussing fact that provenance information may not be stable as long as it doesn't contradict previous assertions

16:12:51 <jcheney> Luc: Plans further changes?

Luc Moreau: Plans further changes?

16:12:55 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

16:13:03 <jcheney> Graham: Title discussion; author list

Graham Klyne: Title discussion; author list

16:13:03 <Luc> @gk: the problem was example of section 6 which said entity -uri will be dereferenced

Luc Moreau: @gk: the problem was example of section 6 which said entity -uri will be dereferenced

16:13:35 <jcheney> Luc: Last week decided to hold vote; needs to be recorded for W3C publication

Luc Moreau: Last week decided to hold vote; needs to be recorded for W3C publication

16:13:44 <jcheney> Graham: happy for vote to proceed

Graham Klyne: happy for vote to proceed

16:13:59 <jcheney> pgroth: Likewise; still some open issues but feedback good

Paul Groth: Likewise; still some open issues but feedback good

16:14:44 <jcheney> Luc: Think we should go ahead

Luc Moreau: Think we should go ahead

16:15:13 <jcheney> Graham: Email discussion?

Graham Klyne: Email discussion?

16:15:20 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:15:24 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q-

16:15:27 <jcheney> Luc: Email discussion not helping; need to talk

Luc Moreau: Email discussion not helping; need to talk

16:15:30 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

16:16:14 <jcheney> smiles: Happy with document release, still a lot of TODOs though

Simon Miles: Happy with document release, still a lot of TODOs though

16:16:34 <jcheney> (@gk, you are coming through somewhat distorted...)

(@gk, you are coming through somewhat distorted...)

16:16:42 <MacTed> -1 for removing the ToDos

Ted Thibodeau: -1 for removing the ToDos

16:16:54 <jcheney> GK: TODOs not unusual, but can clean up first

Graham Klyne: TODOs not unusual, but can clean up first

16:17:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a]

16:17:20 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:17:23 <pgroth> so formatting

Paul Groth: so formatting

16:17:24 <Luc> ack sm

Luc Moreau: ack sm

16:17:25 <jcheney> smiles: OK if we make sure people understand that document is still early stage; partly about aesthetics/readability

Simon Miles: OK if we make sure people understand that document is still early stage; partly about aesthetics/readability

16:17:27 <kai> zakim, +[IPcaller.a] is me.

Kai Eckert: zakim, +[IPcaller.a] is me.

16:17:27 <Zakim> sorry, kai, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller.a]'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, kai, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller.a]'

16:17:32 <kai> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me.

Kai Eckert: zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me.

16:17:32 <Zakim> +kai; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +kai; got it

16:18:10 <jcheney> gk: Unlikely to be able to do this until next week

Graham Klyne: Unlikely to be able to do this until next week

16:18:18 <jcheney> Luc: Compliance with W3C requirements?

Luc Moreau: Compliance with W3C requirements?

16:18:23 <jcheney> gk: Not yet

Graham Klyne: Not yet

16:19:09 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

16:20:33 <jcheney> smiles: Pending issues in 4.1.2; meaning of annotations unclear

Simon Miles: Pending issues in 4.1.2; meaning of annotations unclear

16:20:42 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

16:21:19 <Luc> ack pgr

Luc Moreau: ack pgr

16:21:42 <jcheney> pgroth: Suggest we put all TODOs and notes in boxes - won't change actual text

Paul Groth: Suggest we put all TODOs and notes in boxes - won't change actual text

16:21:55 <MacTed> +1 clarification via formatting cleanup

Ted Thibodeau: +1 clarification via formatting cleanup

16:22:05 <jcheney> pgroth: as part of cleanup

Paul Groth: as part of cleanup

16:22:33 <Paolo> notes used to good effect in PROV-DM as well -- there's a DIV class for it

Paolo Missier: notes used to good effect in PROV-DM as well -- there's a DIV class for it

16:22:44 <Luc> @GK, your voice is *VERY* distorted

Luc Moreau: @GK, your voice is *VERY* distorted

16:22:52 <jcheney> gk: Pulling out placeholder TODOs  may make things less readable

Graham Klyne: Pulling out placeholder TODOs may make things less readable

16:22:52 <pgroth> yes

Paul Groth: yes

16:23:03 <jcheney> gk: Plan to do a pass and handle easy cases

Graham Klyne: Plan to do a pass and handle easy cases

16:23:23 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:23:31 <Luc> proposed: 'To Release PAQ document as a first public working draft'

PROPOSED: 'To Release PAQ document as a first public working draft'

16:23:47 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

16:23:48 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

16:23:50 <jcheney> +1

+1

16:23:51 <stain> +1 (with those minor edits)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: +1 (with those minor edits)

16:23:51 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

16:23:53 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

16:23:55 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

16:23:57 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

16:24:09 <Paolo> +1 -- will go along with the editors' decision

Paolo Missier: +1 -- will go along with the editors' decision

16:24:33 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:24:35 <GK> +1

Graham Klyne: +1

16:24:35 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

16:24:35 <pgroth> +1

Paul Groth: +1

16:24:37 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

16:24:59 <Luc> accepted: 'To Release PAQ document as a first public working draft'

RESOLVED: 'To Release PAQ document as a first public working draft'

16:25:20 <GK> @pgroth: I cab do a quick pass through the @@ after this telecon

Graham Klyne: @pgroth: I cab do a quick pass through the @@ after this telecon

16:25:43 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:25:44 <pgroth> @GK cool

Paul Groth: @GK cool

16:25:49 <GK> ACTION GK need to write "status of this document para"

Graham Klyne: ACTION GK need to write "status of this document para"

16:25:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-44 - Need to write "status of this document para" [on Graham Klyne - due 2011-11-24].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-44 - Need to write "status of this document para" [on Graham Klyne - due 2011-11-24].

16:25:57 <jcheney> Luc: need to do pass to meet W3C formal publication requirements

Luc Moreau: need to do pass to meet W3C formal publication requirements

16:26:02 <jcheney> TOPIC: Prov-O

4. Prov-O

Summary: the prov-o team has released the prov-o document for internal review. Please review it. Next week we will decide if we can release it as a first public working draft.

<luc>Summary: the prov-o team has released the prov-o document for internal review. Please review it. Next week we will decide if we can release it as a first public working draft.
16:26:06 <jcheney> (oops :)

(oops :)

16:26:40 <jcheney> Satya: Status update; updating HTML and OWL file to incorporate QualifiedInvolvement, update diagrams

Satya Sahoo: Status update; updating HTML and OWL file to incorporate QualifiedInvolvement, update diagrams

16:27:06 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:27:08 <jcheney> ... Ontology call agrees that current version handles qualification information closer to prov-dm

... Ontology call agrees that current version handles qualification information closer to prov-dm

16:27:24 <jcheney> ... Going through issues; happy to take questions or move forward to FPWD

... Going through issues; happy to take questions or move forward to FPWD

16:27:31 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:28:00 <pgroth> i haven't

Paul Groth: i haven't

16:28:06 <smiles> me neither

Simon Miles: me neither

16:28:09 <jcheney> Luc: Haven't had time to review yet;

Luc Moreau: Haven't had time to review yet;

16:28:10 <Paolo> I have not had a chance either I'm afraid

Paolo Missier: I have not had a chance either I'm afraid

16:28:22 <pgroth> could we vote on it next week?

Paul Groth: could we vote on it next week?

16:28:26 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

16:28:32 <GK> I didn't have time to review properly ... but I don't object to its release

Graham Klyne: I didn't have time to review properly ... but I don't object to its release

16:28:33 <Paolo> @paul +1

Paolo Missier: @paul +1

16:28:35 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:28:39 <jcheney> Luc: Possible vote next week?

Luc Moreau: Possible vote next week?

16:29:07 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q-

16:29:07 <jcheney> pgroth: We could proceed as with PAQ - one week comment/review period before possible vote

Paul Groth: We could proceed as with PAQ - one week comment/review period before possible vote

16:29:10 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:29:10 <Paolo> I would actually like to get a chance to see it in detail before it goes out

Paolo Missier: I would actually like to get a chance to see it in detail before it goes out

16:29:42 <jcheney> Luc: PROV-DM has changed; should we coordinate releases?

Luc Moreau: PROV-DM has changed; should we coordinate releases?

16:30:04 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

16:30:09 <khalidbelhajjame> Luc, good point

Khalid Belhajjame: Luc, good point

16:30:27 <Paolo> @simon: this reminds me that my ASN rendering of examples in the primer need realigning with the new PROV-DM terminology

Paolo Missier: @simon: this reminds me that my ASN rendering of examples in the primer need realigning with the new PROV-DM terminology

16:30:39 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

16:30:40 <GK> I think it would be good to have coordinated, aligned releases of PROV-DM and PROV-O

Graham Klyne: I think it would be good to have coordinated, aligned releases of PROV-DM and PROV-O

16:30:53 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

16:31:23 <jcheney> Luc: In prov-O which version of Prov-DM is being referenced?

Luc Moreau: In prov-O which version of Prov-DM is being referenced?

16:31:33 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy

16:31:33 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's noisy', MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who's noisy', MacTed

16:31:37 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:31:38 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy?

16:31:48 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luc (10%), Satya_Sahoo (84%), stain (79%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luc (10%), Satya_Sahoo (84%), stain (79%)

16:31:49 <jcheney> Satya: Probably somewhere in between.  Have tried to cover changes discussed on mailing list.

Satya Sahoo: Probably somewhere in between. Have tried to cover changes discussed on mailing list.

16:31:56 <khalidbelhajjame> Mostly aligned with the first released working draft

Khalid Belhajjame: Mostly aligned with the first released working draft

16:31:58 <pgroth> stain can you mute?

Paul Groth: stain can you mute?

16:32:02 <stain> sorry

Stian Soiland-Reyes: sorry

16:32:07 <GK> ... but coordinated doesn't necessarily mean simultaneous release?

Graham Klyne: ... but coordinated doesn't necessarily mean simultaneous release?

16:32:29 <jcheney> Satya: As Paul said, if we keep changing prov-o to sync with prov-dm then may need to wait for prov-dm.

Satya Sahoo: As Paul said, if we keep changing prov-o to sync with prov-dm then may need to wait for prov-dm.

16:32:42 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:32:47 <Luc> ack kh

Luc Moreau: ack kh

16:33:11 <jcheney> Khalid: When is next release of prov-dm?

Khalid Belhajjame: When is next release of prov-dm?

16:33:46 <jcheney> Luc: Would like to release prov-dm soon, 2-3 weeks.  Needs review.

Luc Moreau: Would like to release prov-dm soon, 2-3 weeks. Needs review.

16:34:16 <jcheney> ... Could release FPWD of PROV-O next week and 2nd release syncd with PROV-DM

... Could release FPWD of PROV-O next week and 2nd release syncd with PROV-DM

16:34:25 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

16:34:29 <jcheney> Satya: Makes sense, but there will always be time lag

Satya Sahoo: Makes sense, but there will always be time lag

16:34:50 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:35:04 <Luc> ack pg

Luc Moreau: ack pg

16:35:18 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

16:35:35 <jcheney> pgroth: PROV-O not an exact reflection of PROV-DM FPWD.  Somewhere in between

Paul Groth: PROV-O not an exact reflection of PROV-DM FPWD. Somewhere in between

16:36:14 <jcheney> ... This is fine but need to pick out important changes and reflect them, e.g. renaming PE -> activity

... This is fine but need to pick out important changes and reflect them, e.g. renaming PE -> activity

16:36:34 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:36:37 <khalidbelhajjame> Noooo, I will have to redo all the diagrams because of that change :-)

Khalid Belhajjame: Noooo, I will have to redo all the diagrams because of that change :-)

16:36:42 <jcheney> ... More complicated changes can wait; may make it look more synchronized

... More complicated changes can wait; may make it look more synchronized

16:36:43 <pgroth> lol

Paul Groth: lol

16:37:33 <jcheney> Paolo: Linking releases good, gives strong signal, but danger of lag - snags may throw everything off track

Paolo Missier: Linking releases good, gives strong signal, but danger of lag - snags may throw everything off track

16:37:55 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:37:56 <stain> +1

Stian Soiland-Reyes: +1

16:37:57 <jcheney> ... Would like to see well-defined PROV-DM schedule with PROV-O following

... Would like to see well-defined PROV-DM schedule with PROV-O following

16:37:59 <Luc> ack pa

Luc Moreau: ack pa

16:38:28 <jcheney> Satya: Updating prov-o to model constraints fed back into prov-dm.

Satya Sahoo: Updating prov-o to model constraints fed back into prov-dm.

16:38:41 <jcheney> Paolo: Overall effect of linking two is dangerous.

Paolo Missier: Overall effect of linking two is dangerous.

16:38:45 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:38:46 <jcheney> +q

+q

16:38:46 <Paolo> q-

Paolo Missier: q-

16:39:13 <Luc> ack jch

Luc Moreau: ack jch

16:39:28 <jcheney> jcheney: will have to converge eventually...

James Cheney: will have to converge eventually...

16:40:16 <jcheney> Luc: Could have section in preamble of PROV-O summarizing relation to FPWD of PROV-DM

Luc Moreau: Could have section in preamble of PROV-O summarizing relation to FPWD of PROV-DM

16:40:28 <MacTed> +1 preamble noting "changes already made over there mean changes will be made here.  here's a short list:..."

Ted Thibodeau: +1 preamble noting "changes already made over there mean changes will be made here. here's a short list:..."

16:40:50 <jcheney> Satya: Would it enable us to make PROV-DM and PROV-O in lock step?

Satya Sahoo: Would it enable us to make PROV-DM and PROV-O in lock step?

16:40:58 <jcheney> ... there will always be something to do

... there will always be something to do

16:41:39 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

16:41:51 <MacTed> Zakim, unmte me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmte me

16:41:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unmte me', MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'unmte me', MacTed

16:41:55 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

16:41:55 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

16:41:59 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q-

16:42:05 <khalidbelhajjame> I think that this list can be useful for purposes other than prov-o, e.g., for the primer, paq, or simply to keep tracks of the changes made between releases

Khalid Belhajjame: I think that this list can be useful for purposes other than prov-o, e.g., for the primer, paq, or simply to keep tracks of the changes made between releases

16:42:12 <jcheney> Luc: This is list of changes already made in prov-dm and will be implemented in prov-o

Luc Moreau: This is list of changes already made in prov-dm and will be implemented in prov-o

16:42:20 <jcheney> Satya: Can do this, need to keep it updated

Satya Sahoo: Can do this, need to keep it updated

16:42:26 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:42:33 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:42:33 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

16:43:00 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

16:43:34 <jcheney> Luc: Will review and decide about moving towards FPWD

Luc Moreau: Will review and decide about moving towards FPWD

16:44:14 <jcheney> Khalid: can be useful if list is on wiki page also - changelog for prov-dm.

Khalid Belhajjame: can be useful if list is on wiki page also - changelog for prov-dm.

16:44:28 <MacTed> +1 -- this sort of list is relevant to all cross-dependent docs in parallel production...

Ted Thibodeau: +1 -- this sort of list is relevant to all cross-dependent docs in parallel production...

16:44:33 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#changes-since-previous-version

Luc Moreau: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#changes-since-previous-version

16:44:34 <jcheney> Luc: Yes, it would be useful and already exists

Luc Moreau: Yes, it would be useful and already exists

16:44:34 <Paolo> @khalid ood idea

Paolo Missier: @khalid good idea

16:44:41 <Paolo> s/ood/good
16:45:01 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:45:04 <Luc> ack khal

Luc Moreau: ack khal

16:45:05 <khalidbelhajjame> thanks

Khalid Belhajjame: thanks

16:45:25 <jcheney> TOPIC: PROV-PRIMER

5. PROV-PRIMER

Summary: The primer team produced a first version of the document. Please review it and comment on it. We will decide next week if it can be released as a first public working draft. For both the prov-o and prov-primer documents, we discussed the pros and cons of releasing these documents synchronously with new versions of prov-dm. We agreed not to synchronize releases, to avoid publication delays.

<Luc>Summary: The primer team produced a first version of the document. Please review it and comment on it. We will decide next week if it can be released as a first public working draft.  For both the prov-o and prov-primer documents, we discussed the pros and cons of releasing these documents synchronously with new versions of prov-dm. We agreed not to synchronize releases, to avoid publication delays.
16:45:57 <jcheney> smiles: First version available for review; has been extended recently with PROV-ASN examples in appendix

Simon Miles: First version available for review; has been extended recently with PROV-ASN examples in appendix

16:46:03 <jcheney> ... Comments welcome

... Comments welcome

16:46:30 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

16:46:31 <jcheney> ... Concept illustrations focus on the apparently most stable things; more needs to be done for next version

... Concept illustrations focus on the apparently most stable things; more needs to be done for next version

16:46:52 <jcheney> Luc: Does this follow PROV-DM or PROV-O?  In between?

Luc Moreau: Does this follow PROV-DM or PROV-O? In between?

16:47:01 <smiles> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/primer/Primer.html

Simon Miles: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/primer/Primer.html

16:47:07 <jcheney> smiles: Following PROV-DM as of FPWD

Simon Miles: Following PROV-DM as of FPWD

16:47:14 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:47:27 <jcheney> ... Worked examples include rdf/prov-o

... Worked examples include rdf/prov-o

16:47:38 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

16:47:39 <jcheney> Luc: Activities or process executions?

Luc Moreau: Activities or process executions?

16:47:58 <jcheney> smiles: Have updated terminology to use "activity"

Simon Miles: Have updated terminology to use "activity"

16:48:30 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:48:35 <jcheney> ... ASN uses PEs, needs to be updated

... ASN uses PEs, needs to be updated

16:48:40 <Luc> ack pgr

Luc Moreau: ack pgr

16:48:49 <Paolo> q-

Paolo Missier: q-

16:49:10 <jcheney> pgroth: Same question about PROV-O and PROV-DM: synchronization would be good, how much work to sync with PROV-O

Paul Groth: Same question about PROV-O and PROV-DM: synchronization would be good, how much work to sync with PROV-O

16:49:12 <GK> @paul +1

Graham Klyne: @paul +1

16:49:15 <Paolo> @simon: yes I am the one who is lagging behind PROV-dM (shame)

Paolo Missier: @simon: yes I am the one who is lagging behind PROV-dM (shame)

16:49:45 <jcheney> ... Good to release to public to get this on radar, people may want to start implementing.

... Good to release to public to get this on radar, people may want to start implementing.

16:50:09 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:50:15 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

16:50:17 <GK> I think the primer will help other people to review the rest of the specs

Graham Klyne: I think the primer will help other people to review the rest of the specs

16:50:32 <jcheney> smiles: Agree releasing soon would be good, to find out if people find it readable, have't kept up with prov-o

Simon Miles: Agree releasing soon would be good, to find out if people find it readable, have't kept up with prov-o

16:50:40 <Luc> ack sat

Luc Moreau: ack sat

16:50:55 <pgroth> q+ to respond

Paul Groth: q+ to respond

16:51:04 <jcheney> satya: Right now primer does not have inference rules, qualified involvement.  Planning to vote on prov-o next week.

Satya Sahoo: Right now primer does not have inference rules, qualified involvement. Planning to vote on prov-o next week.

16:51:13 <jcheney> ... Do you think we should delay prov-o pending changes?

... Do you think we should delay prov-o pending changes?

16:51:17 <GK> I think it's just fine that the primer doesn't concern itself with the inferencde rules.  It the vocab that's key.

Graham Klyne: I think it's just fine that the primer doesn't concern itself with the inferencde rules. It the vocab that's key.

16:51:31 <GK> @paul +1

Graham Klyne: @paul +1

16:51:40 <jcheney> pgroth: Primer doesn't have to represent everything.  Ontology may not have to change, just primer

Paul Groth: Primer doesn't have to represent everything. Ontology may not have to change, just primer

16:52:19 <jcheney> ... Revert activity to process execution?  Review this week for possible vote next week?

... Revert activity to process execution? Review this week for possible vote next week?

16:52:20 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:52:25 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

16:52:27 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to respond

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth, you wanted to respond

16:52:32 <Luc> ack pro

Luc Moreau: ack pro

16:53:27 <jcheney> Luc: Earlier hesitated to delay prov-o until primer ready.

Luc Moreau: Earlier hesitated to delay prov-o until primer ready.

16:53:37 <jcheney> ... Simon, suggesting that this is ready for FPWD?

... Simon, suggesting that this is ready for FPWD?

16:53:48 <YolandaGil> q+

Yolanda Gil: q+

16:53:55 <jcheney> q+

q+

16:53:59 <Luc> ack yo

Luc Moreau: ack yo

16:54:22 <jcheney> smiles: if there is consensus

Simon Miles: if there is consensus

16:54:53 <jcheney> YolandaGil: sandro, others - what should we do to relate to other W3C actvities or context?

Yolanda Gil: sandro, others - what should we do to relate to other W3C actvities or context?

16:54:57 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:55:08 <jcheney> zakim, who is speaking

zakim, who is speaking

16:55:08 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is speaking', jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is speaking', jcheney

16:55:13 <jcheney> zakim, who is noisy?

zakim, who is noisy?

16:55:19 <GK> q+ to say I found the primer very useful as is; helped me to get into issues in DM.  I think early release could help get better feedback on other areas.

Graham Klyne: q+ to say I found the primer very useful as is; helped me to get into issues in DM. I think early release could help get better feedback on other areas.

16:55:25 <Zakim> jcheney, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: sandro (85%)

Zakim IRC Bot: jcheney, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: sandro (85%)

16:55:50 <jcheney> sandro: hard to know what people will see - important to annonce and find reviewers/colleagues in target audience

Sandro Hawke: hard to know what people will see - important to annonce and find reviewers/colleagues in target audience

16:56:00 <jcheney> ... semantic web people not already familiar with provenance?

... semantic web people not already familiar with provenance?

16:56:20 <jcheney> Luc: Got good feedback from Tom Baker on Prov-DM, was keen to see updates

Luc Moreau: Got good feedback from Tom Baker on Prov-DM, was keen to see updates

16:56:21 <pgroth> so are we saying an internal review

Paul Groth: so are we saying an internal review

16:56:25 <pgroth> without fpwd

Paul Groth: without fpwd

16:56:25 <Paolo> agree with the idea of a semi-internal review from a slightly less "primed" panel

Paolo Missier: agree with the idea of a semi-internal review from a slightly less "primed" panel

16:56:26 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:56:37 <jcheney> Yolanda: good suggestion - small group review

Yolanda Gil: good suggestion - small group review

16:56:50 <jcheney> Luc: before FPWD?

Luc Moreau: before FPWD?

16:56:59 <jcheney> Yolanda: Yes

Yolanda Gil: Yes

16:57:30 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

16:57:42 <jcheney> jcheney: is primer a recommendation, and do we need to worry about FPWD status

James Cheney: is primer a recommendation, and do we need to worry about FPWD status

16:57:52 <pgroth> we have to do FPWD and LC

Paul Groth: we have to do FPWD and LC

16:57:55 <jcheney> Luc:Primer will be a Note

Luc Moreau: Primer will be a Note

16:58:20 <pgroth> q-

Paul Groth: q-

16:58:21 <jcheney> sandro: Only difference is phrase that says that it is not intended to be recommendation track

Sandro Hawke: Only difference is phrase that says that it is not intended to be recommendation track

16:58:24 <jcheney> q-

q-

16:58:32 <jcheney> (Thanks, that answers my question!)

(Thanks, that answers my question!)

16:58:42 <jcheney> sandro: Otherwise process is the same

Sandro Hawke: Otherwise process is the same

16:58:52 <pgroth> gk talk softer

Paul Groth: gk talk softer

16:58:53 <stain> try 10 cm away from mic

Stian Soiland-Reyes: try 10 cm away from mic

16:59:00 <pgroth> better

Paul Groth: better

16:59:03 <stain> +1

Stian Soiland-Reyes: +1

16:59:14 <jcheney> gk: think primer is too useful to hold back on release.  found reading helped understand discussion issues better.

Graham Klyne: think primer is too useful to hold back on release. found reading helped understand discussion issues better.

16:59:29 <jcheney> ... if we can get primer out, it will help seed interest/understanding in other docs

... if we can get primer out, it will help seed interest/understanding in other docs

16:59:30 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:59:33 <Luc> ack gk

Luc Moreau: ack gk

16:59:33 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say I found the primer very useful as is; helped me to get into issues in DM.  I think early release could help get better feedback on other areas.

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to say I found the primer very useful as is; helped me to get into issues in DM. I think early release could help get better feedback on other areas.

16:59:34 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

16:59:37 <satya> @GK, +1

Satya Sahoo: @GK, +1

16:59:44 <Luc> ack pg

Luc Moreau: ack pg

16:59:59 <jcheney> pgroth: is there a pseudo-way of making primer available pre FPWD?

Paul Groth: is there a pseudo-way of making primer available pre FPWD?

17:00:22 <jcheney> sandro: can point people to respec version, circulate as editor's draft

Sandro Hawke: can point people to respec version, circulate as editor's draft

17:00:50 <jcheney> smiles: editor's draft circulation sounds good

Simon Miles: editor's draft circulation sounds good

17:01:08 <jcheney> sandro: editor's draft has connotation of being "even more work in progress"

Sandro Hawke: editor's draft has connotation of being "even more work in progress"

17:01:26 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

17:01:32 <jcheney> Luc: likely to get feedback on all 3 - dm, o, primer

Luc Moreau: likely to get feedback on all 3 - dm, o, primer

17:02:10 <jcheney> Luc: Suggested names for internal reviewers; next week, decide whether to release as ED or FPWD

Luc Moreau: Suggested names for internal reviewers; next week, decide whether to release as ED or FPWD

17:02:35 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

17:02:43 <jcheney> smiles: Pass on to sympathetic reviewers who will offer constructive feedback

Simon Miles: Pass on to sympathetic reviewers who will offer constructive feedback

17:03:00 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

17:03:14 <jcheney> Luc: adjourned

Luc Moreau: adjourned

17:03:14 <Zakim> -??P19

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P19

17:03:16 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo

17:03:17 <Zakim> -Vinh_

Zakim IRC Bot: -Vinh_

17:03:17 <Zakim> -pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth

17:03:17 <Zakim> -Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo

17:03:18 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller]

17:03:19 <Zakim> -kai

Zakim IRC Bot: -kai

17:03:21 <Zakim> -sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -sandro

17:03:23 <Zakim> -stain

Zakim IRC Bot: -stain

17:03:25 <pgroth> luc shall we talk?

Paul Groth: luc shall we talk?

17:03:29 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

17:03:31 <Luc> @pgroth, yes

Luc Moreau: @pgroth, yes

17:03:36 <Zakim> -??P44

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P44

17:03:41 <Zakim> -YolandaGil

Zakim IRC Bot: -YolandaGil

17:03:43 <Zakim> -SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: -SamCoppens

17:03:53 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

17:03:55 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes

17:03:59 <GK> @pgroth I'm editing the PAQ @@s as we chat...

Graham Klyne: @pgroth I'm editing the PAQ @@s as we chat...

17:04:01 <Zakim> -??P27

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P27

17:04:03 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

17:04:27 <Zakim> -??P63

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P63

17:04:31 <Zakim> -GK

Zakim IRC Bot: -GK

17:04:33 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended

17:04:35 <Zakim> Attendees were Paolo, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, Satya_Sahoo, pgroth, +1.518.276.aabb, stain, tlebo, MacTed, GK, Yolanda, [IPcaller], SamCoppens, sandro, Vinh_, YolandaGil, kai

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Paolo, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, Satya_Sahoo, pgroth, +1.518.276.aabb, stain, tlebo, MacTed, GK, Yolanda, [IPcaller], SamCoppens, sandro, Vinh_, YolandaGil, kai



Formatted by CommonScribe


This revision (#4) generated 2011-11-23 13:39:49 UTC by 'jcheney', comments: 'Did a pass over to correct typos.'