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# just on IRC <sandro> Guest: Dan Brickley <sandro> Topic: Org Vocab <sandro> Summary: There are three substative issues that may require a second Last Call and some others that are probably editorial; will continue in the new year. Also big question arose about refering/depending on other vocabs that might change. 14:55:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #gld 14:55:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-gld-irc 14:55:13 <PhilA2> zakim, this will be gld 14:55:13 <Zakim> ok, PhilA2; I see T&S_GLDWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 14:58:52 <PhilA2> zakim, code? 14:58:52 <Zakim> the conference code is 45394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:firstname.lastname@example.org), PhilA2 15:00:19 <Zakim> T&S_GLDWG()10:00AM has now started 15:00:26 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 15:00:30 <PhilA2> zakim, IPcaller is me 15:00:30 <Zakim> +PhilA2; got it 15:00:52 <PhilA2> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20121206 15:00:54 <gatemezi> gatemezi has joined #gld 15:00:57 <PhilA2> chair: PhilA 15:01:03 <agipap> agipap has joined #gld 15:01:15 <PhilA2> regrets+ Bernadette, Richard 15:01:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 15:01:28 <PhilA2> meeting: G:D Weekly telecon 15:02:07 <makx> makx has joined #gld 15:02:08 <agipap> zakim, IPcaller is me 15:02:08 <Zakim> +agipap; got it 15:02:55 <PhilA2> s/G:D/GLD 15:03:32 <jmynarz> jmynarz has joined #gld 15:03:43 <Zakim> + +33.4.93.00.aaaa 15:03:51 <GofranShu> GofranShu has joined #GLD 15:03:56 <Zakim> +Sandro 15:05:01 <PhilA2> zakim, who is here? 15:05:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see PhilA2, agipap, gatemezi, Sandro 15:05:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see GofranShu, jmynarz, makx, agipap, gatemezi, RRSAgent, Zakim, PhilA2, MacTed, trackbot, sandro 15:05:08 <makx> having problems getting voice connection 15:05:09 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #gld 15:05:24 <Zakim> +??P39 15:05:37 <BartvanLeeuwen> BartvanLeeuwen has joined #gld 15:06:05 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 15:06:38 <makx> I seem to have a similar problem from here, using voip 15:06:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 15:06:57 <PhilA2> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/track/products/5 15:07:30 <jpalmeida> jpalmeida has joined #gld 15:07:40 <sandro> scribe: sandro 15:07:42 <jpalmeida> I am ipcaller 15:07:48 <Zakim> +??P1 15:07:58 <PhilA2> zakim, IPcaller is jpalmeida 15:07:58 <Zakim> +jpalmeida; got it 15:08:41 <PhilA2> ORG open issues etc. http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/track/products/5 15:08:43 <DaveReynolds> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/ORG_LC_comments 15:09:16 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Main_Page 15:09:20 <PhilA2> sandro: I haven't announced this but I've re-done the group's home page 15:09:25 <Zakim> + +3220.127.116.11.1.9.aabb 15:09:29 <GofranShu> Zakim, mute me 15:09:29 <Zakim> sorry, GofranShu, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 15:09:45 <GofranShu> zakim, who is here? 15:09:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see PhilA2, agipap, gatemezi (muted), Sandro, ??P39, DaveReynolds, jpalmeida, ??P1, +318.104.22.168.1.9.aabb 15:09:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see jpalmeida, BartvanLeeuwen, DaveReynolds, GofranShu, jmynarz, makx, agipap, gatemezi, RRSAgent, Zakim, PhilA2, MacTed, trackbot, sandro 15:10:04 <GofranShu> Zakim, ??P1 is me 15:10:04 <Zakim> +GofranShu; got it 15:10:07 <GofranShu> Zakim, mute me 15:10:07 <Zakim> GofranShu should now be muted 15:10:37 <sandro> sandro: please look at and improve http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Main_Page 15:10:48 <sandro> phil: where are we on org LC comments 15:11:15 <sandro> DaveReynolds: None of the comments have been addressed. The PROV ones are suggestions on how to use PROV -- they will require work to address. 15:11:25 <sandro> DaveReynolds: Then a minor omission ISSUE-42 15:11:33 <jpalmeida> yes 15:11:38 <jmynarz> Zakim, ??P39 is me. 15:11:38 <Zakim> +jmynarz; got it 15:11:48 <sandro> .. The jpalmeida pointed out stuff that's ISSUE-48 and ISSUE-49 15:11:55 <MacTed> MacTed has joined #gld 15:12:00 <sandro> .. plus the diagram 15:12:19 <sandro> .. trying to collect the set, and before addressing them we should be clear this is the complete set. 15:12:32 <sandro> .. jpalmeida, do you have any more comments? 15:13:04 <sandro> jpalmeida: Do you mean issue-48 and issue-49 and the diagrams? Is that the list you're referring to? 15:13:43 <sandro> DaveReynolds: That's what I've got so far from all our emails. Is that all of your feedback, or is there otherfeed back that isn't captured in that list. 15:14:00 <sandro> jpalmeida: There are some questions that arise from these discussions. 15:14:10 <sandro> jpalmeida: Is Post really a subclass of Organization? 15:14:27 <sandro> jpalmeida: Is this the final view of the group? 15:14:53 <sandro> jpalmeida: All subclasses of foaf:Agent, so gender, birthdate, come from foaf. 15:15:07 <sandro> .. I see there are different views in the group. 15:15:44 <sandro> DaveReynolds: I've stated my views. Agents optionally having birthdays doesn't cause problems. 15:16:01 <sandro> DaveReynolds: Do you feel we have the complete set of last call comments. 15:16:24 <sandro> DaveReynolds: Is everything you're concerns about on http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/ORG_LC_comments ? 15:16:59 <sandro> jpalmeida: (something about birthday semantics) 15:17:05 <jpalmeida> so what is the semantics of the gender of organizations? 15:17:11 <sandro> DaveReynolds: The question is whether you need that to be addressed. 15:17:33 <PhilA2> q+ 15:18:05 <sandro> jpalmeida: If we say that Org is a subclass of foaf:Agent, then we should be able to say what it means for an Org to have a gender. 15:18:56 <sandro> PhilA2: The question right now is whether the list of last call comments is a fair representation of the comments you've made. We'll come back to everything on that list. 15:19:19 <PhilA2> q- 15:19:36 <sandro> .. so that when we've dealt with everything on that list we'll know we've dealt with every Last Call comment. 15:20:03 <sandro> DaveReynolds: The two issues you've raised on this call are not on that list right now. 15:20:26 <jpalmeida> thanks 15:20:38 <sandro> jpalmeida: Yes, those two need to be on this list, too. 15:20:59 <MacTed> MacTed has joined #gld 15:21:03 <sandro> DaveReynolds: These require substantial discussion, so there will be no motion on Org this calendar year. 15:21:50 <sandro> DaveReynolds: jpalmeida's comments may require a substantial change, and thus a Second Last Call 15:22:00 <sandro> PhilA2: Aside from those two, do you think one call will be enough? 15:22:10 <sandro> .. What do you need from the rest o fhte group 15:22:33 <sandro> DaveReynolds: Aside from jpalmeida's issues, it's issue-42 15:22:57 <sandro> DaveReynolds: All the others ones are editorial; no LC2 needed. 15:24:13 <sandro> DaveReynolds: The non-trivial issues are ISSUE-45 (on RegOrg *and* Org) and the two jpalmeida talked about today. issue-42 issue-48 and issue-49 are editorial, I believe. 15:25:16 <DaveReynolds> Issue: Should org:Organization be sub-class of foaf:Agent (consider birthday property as a test case) 15:25:16 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-50 - Should org:Organization be sub-class of foaf:Agent (consider birthday property as a test case) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/track/issues/50/edit . 15:25:35 <DaveReynolds> Issue: Should org:Post be a sub class of org:Organzation 15:25:36 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-51 - Should org:Post be a sub class of org:Organzation ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/track/issues/51/edit . 15:26:11 <sandro> DaveReynolds: So the substantive issues, that might need an LC2 are ISSUE-45 ISSUE-50 and ISSUE-51. 15:26:13 <jpalmeida> thanks 15:26:24 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/index.php?title=ORG_LC_comments&oldid=3122 is ORG LC Comments as of right now. 15:27:42 <sandro> PhilA2: What about Dom's old comments tracker? 15:27:45 <sandro> sandro: Not sure. 15:27:55 <sandro> PhilA2: I'll take a look at how much pain would be involved 15:28:01 <sandro> action-65? 15:28:01 <trackbot> ACTION-65 -- Dave Reynolds to update rdfs:seeAlso links on org ontology -- due 2012-04-30 -- OPEN 15:28:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/track/actions/65 15:28:03 <PhilA2> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/track/actions/65 15:29:08 <sandro> DaveReynolds: I'll take a look next year 15:29:17 <PhilA2> close ACTION-78 15:29:17 <trackbot> ACTION-78 Include all updates and distribute next version of ORG vocabulary by next Thursday's meeting (4th Oct) closed 15:29:46 <PhilA2> close ACTION-79 15:29:46 <trackbot> ACTION-79 And bartvanLeeuwen to review the final version of the ORG vocabulary for content and typo errors before the document is released as LC closed 15:30:15 <sandro> PhilA2: Anything the rest of the group can do on this right now? 15:30:44 <sandro> DaveReynolds: If anyone has a reasoned argument about issue-50 and issue-51, put it on email 15:31:40 <sandro> PhilA2: I've been looking at some of this stuff, and it's weird. Different vocabs interact in complex ways, based on how people think these things are used. 15:31:52 <jpalmeida> So, let's record it as a bug 15:31:55 <jpalmeida> known bug... 15:32:07 <jpalmeida> if we don't want to address it. 15:32:17 <sandro> sandro: should we talk about this issue-50 now, or move on...? 15:32:41 <jpalmeida> we should probably do this on the mailing list 15:33:40 <sandro> jpalmeida: What Phil just said -- there will be minor problems we may have to tollerate (eg gender of Org) -- that could be the case -- a problem with foaf:Agent -- and we might tolerate that because it's an optional property. But then we should at least flag this. 15:33:45 <sandro> q+ 15:33:58 <sandro> jpalmeida: but we could do this on the mailing list 15:34:04 <PhilA2> ack sandro 15:34:13 <PhilA2> It's sometimes faster to deal with on the phone 15:34:23 <gatemezi> Definition of a gender in FOAF 15:34:25 <gatemezi> http://xmlns.com/foaf/spec/#term_gender 15:34:38 <gatemezi> It seems to me to keep it like that 15:34:41 <PhilA2> sandro: It seems to me that this is a bug in FOAF. We can't have a normative dependency on FOAF? 15:34:55 <PhilA2> jpalmeida: But we say it's a subclass of FOAF so we're saying something about FOAF 15:35:11 <jpalmeida> what's the difference? 15:35:18 <PhilA2> DaveReynolds: We don't import FOAF, we just reference it. We're not making the ontological references 15:35:19 <sandro> DaveReynolds: We don't import foaf, we only references it. We're NOT making those ontological commitments. 15:35:30 <PhilA2> q+ 15:35:46 <PhilA2> sandro: If FOAF changes or goes away tomorrow, there's nothing we can do. That has to not be our problem 15:36:07 <PhilA2> sandro: We have to just say Org is what it is and everything else is just commnet 15:36:19 <PhilA2> sandro: Org has otbe more stable than FOAF 15:36:55 <PhilA2> jpalmeida: Stating that something is a subclass surely implies that we should make comment on the sematics of FOAF 15:37:11 <PhilA2> sandro: That can't be part of the spec, it can be non-normative text 15:37:57 <PhilA2> DaveReynolds: I don't agree there's a bug in FOAF, but... we don't import FOAF. So if a consumer of ORG chose to take on to both FOAF and ORG we've shown them how 15:38:03 <sandro> DaveReynolds: If some consumer of org takes on org and foaf, we've told them how to relate them. 15:38:07 <PhilA2> .. if they don't our assertions won't be interesting to them 15:38:16 <sandro> q? 15:38:27 <PhilA2> q- 15:38:56 <PhilA2> sandro: Is the sub class relationship in the human readable specs? 15:39:32 <PhilA2> DaveReynolds: I'm not sure how you can have an ontoligy that refers to another and not be dependent on it 15:39:34 <PhilA2> q+ 15:39:39 <PhilA2> q- 15:40:01 <jpalmeida> subClass is not "any" relation 15:40:51 <sandro> PhilA2: The idea that we can't refer to another vocab outside w3c, that doesn't really fly. 15:40:56 <jpalmeida> it would certainly be too extreme 15:41:15 <sandro> PhilA2: Is it normative that we say subclass of foaf? 15:42:31 <gatemezi> @Sandro: Could it be possible to transfer a vocab, like foaf to W3C space? what could it implies? 15:42:36 <sandro> DaveReynolds: We're not importing foaf. We're making one normative assertion, subclass of foaf. 15:42:51 <sandro> gatemezi, it's possible, but foaf (Dan Brickley) is not willing. 15:43:55 <jpalmeida> version 15:44:21 <PhilA2> sandro: Imagine a change to the FOAF definition of foaf:Agent that affected ORG semantics badly? 15:44:31 <jpalmeida> it's not a question of version only, because I see problems in the current version (gender bug) 15:44:32 <gatemezi> In the spec, they said this for "gender" : ..However there are kinds of Agent to which the concept of gender isn't applicable (eg. a Group) 15:44:37 <danbri> danbri has joined #gld 15:44:48 <gatemezi> It applies to Org:Organization 15:44:56 <PhilA2> sandro: Either we have to refer to a specific version of FOAF, i.e. today's version, in which case we can't fix the gender bug 15:45:40 <DaveReynolds> The notion of gender in foaf is very open, it's applicability to non-person agents is not a bug. 15:45:47 <jpalmeida> using the best practice on this is important, and could be a contribution of this group 15:46:00 <sandro> PhilA2: This has implications beyond ORG of course. Sandro and I need to look into this. 15:46:03 <gatemezi> +1 to DaveReynolds point about gender 15:46:12 <sandro> Zakim, who is on the call? 15:46:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see PhilA2, agipap, gatemezi (muted), Sandro, jmynarz, DaveReynolds, jpalmeida, GofranShu (muted), +322.214.171.124.1.9.aabb 15:46:22 <PhilA2> topic: RegOrg Vocab <sandro> Summary: Agis expects to have a new draft done in the next few days, before the next meeting, which may address all the current comments. 15:46:25 <PhilA2> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gld/raw-file/default/legal/index.html 15:46:37 <sandro> PhilA2: agipap can you talk thought regorg recent work? 15:46:48 <sandro> agipap: I tried to refine the UML diagram 15:47:07 <sandro> .. screen shot is in the ED now. 15:47:08 <danbri> [for related discussion re open-valued gender field in contact formats, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-contacts-coord/2010JulSep/0017.html and nearby] 15:47:13 <sandro> .. also added some usage examples 15:47:50 <sandro> .. modeled some greek ministries 15:48:58 <gatemezi> re RegOrg : seems the UML diagram very small to be easily readable.. 15:49:00 <sandro> .. my aim is to have by next call (1 wk) the spec ready for FPWD 15:49:43 <sandro> oh, is "regorg" turning into "rov" ? <sandro> Topic: ISSUE-45 (organization address) <sandro> Summary: org and regorg use vcard. vcard is incompatible with INSPIRE. uh oh. 15:49:58 <sandro> PhilA2: What about the Registered Address issue? 15:50:00 <sandro> issue-45? 15:50:00 <trackbot> ISSUE-45 -- Align treatment of registered addresses between Org and RegOrg -- raised 15:50:00 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/track/issues/45 15:50:18 <sandro> PhilA2: "registered site" and then "address" 15:50:31 <sandro> DaveReynolds: I think it's with vcard. 15:51:12 <sandro> PhilA2: vcard is not compliant with INSPIRE, I think. So, it looks to me like Public Sector Information in the EU should not use vcard 15:52:18 <sandro> PhilA2: vcard has one field for street address "17 Foo St", but in INSPIRE has two separate fields. Easy to go from INSPIRE to VCARD but not the other way around. 15:52:41 <sandro> sandro: any way around that? 15:52:53 <sandro> DaveReynolds: Maybe another vcard: property 15:53:19 <sandro> PhilA2: in 30 mins I'm speaking to the relevant bits of the EC 15:53:44 <sandro> PhilA2: They should be looking at this soon, and give us feedback. 15:54:08 <jpalmeida> +1 to PhilA2 15:54:12 <sandro> DaveReynolds: We don't want to tie things up to much. 15:54:50 <sandro> PhilA2: personally, I don't like that org requires vcard. I'd rather loosen it; maybe our own Address class of which vcard is a subclass 15:55:12 <sandro> DaveReynolds: That would need an LC2, but seems like it might be good enough. 15:55:35 <sandro> DaveReynolds: There might be an interop issue -- if people use non-vcard addresses. 15:55:46 <jpalmeida> siteAddress is optional1 15:55:54 <sandro> sandro: So this change would break consumers that we assuming they'd find vcard there. 15:56:21 <sandro> PhilA2: Maybe also a superpropty of address, so that existing stuff wouldn't change. 15:56:31 <jpalmeida> good idea 15:56:54 <sandro> agipap: maybe core location vocabulary will turn into a W3C spec? 15:57:14 <sandro> PhilA2: It's in an W3C Community Group now 15:58:03 <sandro> PhilA2: This group (GLD) could optionally do it. But except for gatemezi we don't have active geo people. 15:58:36 <sandro> PhilA2: JRC trying to figure out how to make INSPIRE play better with Linked Data 15:58:48 <gatemezi> +10 to PhilA2 comment 15:58:54 <sandro> PhilA2: It's a tall order, though. 16:00:01 <sandro> agipap: There are some raised issues on regorg, which will be addressed in the next version, I'm doing in the next couple of days. The new document will, I think, provide solutions. 16:00:21 <jpalmeida> thx 16:00:25 <sandro> ADJOURN 16:00:26 <DaveReynolds> Bye all, have a good Christmas/New Year 16:00:28 <Zakim> -jmynarz 16:00:28 <sandro> thanks PhilA2 ! 16:00:29 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds 16:00:30 <Zakim> - +3126.96.36.199.1.9.aabb 16:00:31 <Zakim> -agipap 16:00:33 <Zakim> -GofranShu 16:00:34 <Zakim> -PhilA2 16:00:36 <Zakim> -Sandro 16:00:40 <sandro> happy december, DaveReynolds ! 16:00:42 <agipap> agipap has left #gld 16:00:45 <Zakim> -jpalmeida 16:01:13 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has left #gld 16:02:05 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000227