IRC log of svg on 2011-12-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:59:46 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
19:59:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to
19:59:48 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
19:59:48 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
19:59:50 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
19:59:50 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
19:59:51 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:59:51 [trackbot]
Date: 15 December 2011
20:00:05 [ericm]
ericm has joined #svg
20:01:19 [shepazu]
agenda+ F2F with CSS WG
20:01:33 [shepazu]
agenda+ demo night in Sydney
20:01:40 [shepazu]
agenda+ charter
20:03:13 [heycam]
Zakim, this is SVG
20:03:13 [Zakim]
sorry, heycam, I do not see a conference named 'SVG' in progress or scheduled at this time
20:03:55 [heycam]
Zakim, code?
20:03:55 [Zakim]
sorry, heycam, I don't know what conference this is
20:06:12 [ed]
trackbot, end telcon
20:06:12 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
20:06:12 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
20:06:13 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:06:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
20:06:14 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
20:06:14 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
20:07:44 [RRSAgent]
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20:07:44 [RRSAgent]
logging to
20:07:53 [vhardy]
vhardy has joined #svg
20:07:54 [ChrisL]
zakim, code?
20:07:54 [Zakim]
the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, ChrisL
20:08:00 [Tav]
On one page it does say 20:00 GMT.
20:08:02 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)20:07Z has now started
20:08:11 [Zakim]
20:08:24 [ChrisL]
still no booking for the call?
20:08:32 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aaaa
20:08:33 [ChrisL]
zakim, this will be svg
20:08:34 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisL, I see Team_(svg)20:07Z already started
20:08:36 [Zakim]
20:08:42 [heycam]
Zakim, [ is me
20:08:42 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
20:08:48 [vhardy]
Zakim, +1.415.832.aaaa is me
20:08:48 [Zakim]
+vhardy; got it
20:08:52 [Zakim]
20:09:04 [Zakim]
20:09:10 [ed]
Zakim, [IP is me
20:09:10 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
20:09:14 [Zakim]
20:09:15 [cyril|away]
cyril|away has joined #svg
20:09:15 [ChrisL]
flights booked for australia
20:09:48 [Zakim]
20:10:18 [ed]
20:10:18 [ed]
20:11:02 [cabanier]
cabanier has joined #svg
20:11:11 [cyril|away]
Zakim, what is the code?
20:11:11 [Zakim]
the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, cyril|away
20:11:17 [heycam]
Zakim, who is on the call?
20:11:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ChrisL, vhardy, heycam, Tav, ed, ericm, Doug_Schepers
20:11:40 [Zakim]
20:11:45 [ed]
20:12:09 [ed]
Zakim, who's here?
20:12:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ChrisL, vhardy, heycam, Tav, ed, ericm, Doug_Schepers, cyril
20:12:20 [cabanier]
what is the passcode?
20:12:28 [ed]
cabanier: 26631
20:12:50 [cabanier]
i says that the conference is full
20:13:14 [Zakim]
20:13:16 [Zakim]
20:13:18 [Zakim]
20:13:19 [Zakim]
20:13:19 [Zakim]
20:13:21 [Zakim]
20:13:25 [Zakim]
20:13:26 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)20:07Z has ended
20:13:28 [Zakim]
Attendees were ChrisL, [IPcaller], heycam, vhardy, Tav, ed, ericm, Doug_Schepers, cyril
20:13:33 [ed]
Zakim, room for 12?
20:13:34 [Zakim]
ok, ed; conference Team_(svg)20:13Z scheduled with code 26633 (CONF3) for 60 minutes until 2113Z
20:14:06 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)20:13Z has now started
20:14:13 [Zakim]
20:14:14 [Zakim]
20:14:29 [Zakim]
20:14:30 [heycam]
Zakim, [ is me
20:14:30 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
20:14:36 [Zakim]
20:14:44 [ed]
Zakim, [IP is me
20:14:44 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
20:14:58 [Zakim]
20:15:07 [ed]
20:15:47 [vhardy]
Please note the bridge has changed to 26633 (_not_ 26631 anymore)
20:15:52 [thorton]
thorton has joined #svg
20:16:23 [Zakim]
20:16:27 [Zakim]
20:16:28 [heycam]
Scribe: Cameron
20:16:31 [heycam]
ScribeNick: heycam
20:16:42 [heycam]
Topic: F2F with CSS
20:16:48 [heycam]
VH: there's a UEFA championship happening in that week
20:16:52 [heycam]
… so it's difficult to book travel/hotels
20:16:58 [heycam]
… we've updated the page with hotel information and pricing
20:17:15 [heycam]
… it's not too bad, there are hotels 60-170
20:17:21 [heycam]
… one of the worries is about travel
20:17:27 [heycam]
… we sent a questionnaire to the CSS WG
20:17:47 [heycam]
… wasn't sure if CSS/SVG should use the same questionnaire
20:17:53 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.675.aaaa
20:18:20 [ChrisL]
zakim, code?
20:18:20 [Zakim]
the conference code is 26633 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, ChrisL
20:18:25 [heycam]
… otherwise we could just decide that we want to go one particular way in the group
20:18:25 [cabanier]
Zakim, is me
20:18:25 [Zakim]
+cabanier; got it
20:18:38 [heycam]
… the CSS WG is leaning towards changing the date of the meeting, at the same location
20:19:03 [ChrisL]
the poll shows just as many people wanting to change the location and keep the date
20:19:10 [heycam]
… we (hosts) would also prefer to keep the same location
20:19:19 [heycam]
… but we could also host in Hamburg on the same dates
20:19:39 [Zakim]
20:20:51 [heycam]
CL: can't seem to edit the CSS WG's questionnaire to allow SVG people to respond to it
20:21:19 [heycam]
CM: are there specific dates if we keep the same location?
20:21:27 [heycam]
VH: probably before. after I can't.
20:21:31 [ChrisL]
change the location and keep the same dates? has 8 yes and 5 yes-and-prefer
20:21:36 [heycam]
CM: same for me
20:21:50 [heycam]
VH: probably the better option is to do it just one week before, in the same place, or we move it
20:21:57 [heycam]
CL: I can't do it one week before, I'm attending a conference
20:22:09 [ChrisL]
libre graphics s the week before
20:22:16 [heycam]
VH: some other CSS people can't do it the week before
20:22:19 [ChrisL]
ac meeting is the week after
20:23:08 [heycam]
CL: looking at the results so far from CSS, the third option of "change the location keep the date" seems to be the strongest option
20:23:24 [vhardy]
20:25:21 [heycam]
CM: I can't do week after
20:25:23 [heycam]
RC: I have no constraints
20:25:50 [heycam]
VH: we need Chris, and some of the other CSS people who can't make it the week before
20:26:42 [heycam]
… I will give an update early January about the F2F
20:27:12 [cabanier]
* Adobe office in Hamburg is very nice
20:27:26 [heycam]
ACTION: Vincent to email CSS WG to say that the SVG WG prefers to move the location and keep the same date
20:27:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3185 - Email CSS WG to say that the SVG WG prefers to move the location and keep the same date [on Vincent Hardy - due 2011-12-22].
20:27:40 [Zakim]
20:27:49 [heycam]
Topic: telcon schedule with holidays
20:28:09 [heycam]
ED: the four next telcons scheduled
20:28:10 [ed]
22 Dec, 29 Dec, 5 Jan, 12 Jan
20:29:08 [ChrisL]
do we have a f2f agenda for preparation over the holidays?
20:29:31 [heycam]
CC: I cannot make 29 Dec
20:29:48 [heycam]
ED: I can make 22 Dec and 5 Jan
20:30:06 [heycam]
DS: I might be able to make 5 Jan, not sure
20:30:51 [heycam]
ED: so let's cancel 29 Dec, and 12 Jan
20:31:12 [heycam]
… let's keep 22 Dec and 5 Jan on
20:31:55 [ChrisL]
my regrets for 22 Dec and 5 Jan
20:32:51 [ed]
ACTION: ed to send a reminder to the list about the telcon schedule (cancelling 29 dec, 12 jan)
20:32:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3186 - Send a reminder to the list about the telcon schedule (cancelling 29 dec, 12 jan) [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-12-22].
20:33:30 [heycam]
Topic: mini-TPAC
20:33:34 [shepazu]
20:33:55 [heycam]
DS: there was a suggestion from some of the chairs that several groups get together and colocate a meeting in Silicon Valley
20:34:19 [heycam]
… at least one chair pushed back on that, saying their group needed more lead time to organise that
20:34:30 [heycam]
… Mike Smith said there was still interest in coordinating script library people
20:34:35 [heycam]
… so there's an idea of doing it in either March or May
20:34:47 [heycam]
… if a WG doesn't want to show up, it doesn't have to, but we might want to coordinate informally
20:34:57 [heycam]
… there's value in us getting together with the script library folks
20:35:21 [heycam]
TB: what do you mean by script libraries?
20:35:40 [heycam]
DS: things like jQuery, dojo, d3, raphael. not sure who exactly who would show up
20:35:45 [heycam]
… but definitely the jQuery folks would
20:36:06 [heycam]
… there's a lot of interest from the script librarians about the Component Model, and I think it would be beneficial to be in the same room to talk about these things
20:36:10 [heycam]
… at TPAC we ran out of time
20:36:36 [heycam]
… I think it would be good for the SVG WG to be in there
20:37:20 [heycam]
CM: what's the proposed duration of the mini TPAC?
20:37:33 [heycam]
DS: let's follow up on the mailing list
20:39:29 [heycam]
Topic: Sydney F2F
20:39:37 [shepazu]
20:40:17 [heycam]
DS: Chris you may be surprised to see you're on the agenda here
20:40:24 [heycam]
CL: ok, that's fine
20:40:58 [heycam]
DS: I thought it would be a good idea to meet up with web developers
20:41:32 [heycam]
… we may have 50-60 people signed up to attend
20:41:35 [heycam]
… it is a free event
20:41:44 [heycam]
… I figure each of us who is interested can do a demo
20:41:49 [heycam]
… we might have a short panel session
20:42:20 [heycam]
… Dmitri Baranovsky might be interested in presenting too
20:42:48 [heycam]
CM: that's the Thursday night
20:42:50 [heycam]
DS: yes
20:42:53 [heycam]
… location TBA
20:43:43 [heycam]
… we should think about what we should present to them
20:43:51 [heycam]
… I was thinking of doing something brief on integrating SVG and HTML
20:44:01 [heycam]
… maybe Erik you can do some SVG Wow stuff
20:45:20 [shepazu]
20:45:25 [heycam]
Topic: charter
20:45:30 [heycam]
CL: the charter is expected to go out to the AC this week
20:45:35 [heycam]
s/out/back out/
20:46:02 [ChrisL]
includes requessted edits on SVG DOM refactoring from RIM and Opera
20:48:40 [heycam]
20:48:46 [thorton]
thorton has joined #svg
20:48:55 [ChrisL]
20:48:57 [heycam]
CL: I've put in a talk to FOSDEM at the beginning of February at the Colour Management session
20:49:07 [heycam]
… I'll be talking about the SVG2 Colour chapter, and getting feedback from people there
20:49:14 [heycam]
s/Colour chapter/Color chapter/
20:49:19 [ChrisL]
talk is about color management in svg2. i have provisional acceptance
20:49:40 [heycam]
Topic: SVG2 spec editing status
20:49:41 [ed]
20:50:05 [heycam]
CL: I read through the document you (Tav) wrote
20:50:12 [heycam]
… I don't like cid on portions of something
20:50:31 [heycam]
… it should link to an outermost container for a property definition (or whatever)
20:50:46 [heycam]
… if you're using a <dl> as a block container I'd rather see the id on the <dl> itself
20:50:55 [heycam]
… I like the way you've laid it out, the markup is much better
20:51:03 [heycam]
… I agree we should do properties and attributes in a similar way if possible
20:51:15 [heycam]
… but it would be good to have it styled the same way as in CSS specs, for properties
20:53:33 [heycam]
CC: there are two versions of attribute definitions
20:53:42 [heycam]
… I agree with the change proposed by Tav (the linear gradient one)
20:53:54 [cyril]
20:53:55 [ChrisL]
20:55:45 [heycam]
ACTION: Tav to ask Vincent for feedback on the spec styling
20:55:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3187 - Ask Vincent for feedback on the spec styling [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2011-12-22].
20:56:30 [heycam]
Topic: SVG2 requirements, continued
20:57:04 [cyril]
20:57:12 [Zakim]
20:57:41 [heycam]
CC: next is Advanced Pattern Methods
20:57:48 [Zakim]
20:59:55 [heycam]
CM: Olaf's dot point here is brief
21:00:18 [ChrisL]
There was a call for halftone screening as well, could be done as a pattern
21:00:21 [heycam]
… but I remember he mentioned somewhere else about different mathetmatical tiling methods
21:00:28 [heycam]
… there are 12 of them? I can't remember the name.
21:00:40 [heycam]
TB: 13 I think. symmetries. Inkscape supports those.
21:01:05 [heycam]
… another request was for half toning
21:01:33 [heycam]
RC: half toning is not really a pattern
21:01:40 [heycam]
TB: might make more sense in filters
21:02:16 [heycam]
RC: what is the use case for half toning? print or on screen?
21:02:20 [heycam]
TB: on screen
21:02:21 [Tav]
21:03:04 [heycam]
TB: the star is the pattern
21:03:16 [heycam]
… you can change the size, colour, based on the colour underneath
21:03:35 [heycam]
… this actually uses <use>
21:04:00 [heycam]
RC: programmatically in inkscape itself? not in the language?
21:04:01 [heycam]
TB: yes
21:04:38 [heycam]
RC: for half toning, maybe you could have a filter that takes a spot function
21:04:53 [heycam]
… you would feed in the value of the colour, typically you have four spot functions (CMYK)
21:05:05 [heycam]
… you fill in the value of the colour and out comes the region of the cell you will paint
21:05:14 [heycam]
… half toning is like cells with pixels in them
21:05:25 [heycam]
… you tile that, and feed in the colour values into the spot function
21:05:37 [ChrisL]
21:07:23 [heycam]
21:07:40 [ChrisL]
the dot screens are at different angles because they are opaque 9for ink) but that gives rosette pattersn where the dots form clusters
21:07:50 [ChrisL]
21:07:58 [heycam]
TB: for the tiling, you take a single object or group and inkscape knows the size of it
21:08:11 [ed]
21:08:13 [heycam]
… looking at
21:08:22 [heycam]
… it just computes the position of where to put the tiles
21:08:34 [ChrisL]
rosettes, see
21:08:52 [heycam]
… in the first example, the bounding box extends outside the tiling area, so you get overlap
21:09:06 [heycam]
… in inkscape you can adjust the overlap, the "pattern size"
21:09:11 [heycam]
CM: that sets a clip?
21:09:15 [heycam]
TB: the pattern can extend outside
21:09:29 [heycam]
… if you want to pattern something on a rectangular grid, you can choose to do it on a grid smaller than the size of the bounding box
21:09:32 [heycam]
… and then you get overlaps
21:09:50 [cyril]
21:09:56 [heycam]
… in some cases, when you're doing hexagonal tiling, if you are not careful you will get content outside the tiling area and you'll get overlaps
21:10:08 [heycam]
… it would be fairly straightforward to specify, not sure how useful it is
21:10:26 [heycam]
… inkscape not only can do those tiling symmetries, see the following pages
21:10:37 [heycam]
… you can add random shifts, shrink or expand the tiles
21:10:53 [heycam]
CC: is there anything in common with the Tiling & Layering work in the Mapping TF?
21:11:20 [heycam]
CL: not really, that's more for multi resolution images
21:11:32 [heycam]
… where you're automatically tiling where they butt together, producing an image by slicing it into multiple pieces
21:11:35 [heycam]
… it's not a repeating pattern
21:11:42 [heycam]
TB: one place where this might be useful is in Mapping
21:11:46 [ChrisL]
21:11:49 [heycam]
… if you want a pattern to show a swamp, the density say
21:12:04 [heycam]
… if you could turn a gradient into a density map, add a bit of randomness
21:12:08 [ChrisL]
in particular
21:12:20 [cyril]
21:12:21 [heycam]
CC: the next requirement on the page is also about advanced patterns
21:12:40 [cyril]
21:13:12 [cyril]
21:13:32 [heycam]
ED: my email is not something as advanced as these tiling symmetries
21:13:42 [heycam]
… more about tightening up existing patterns
21:14:24 [heycam]
CC: does it make sense to merge these two entries?
21:14:28 [heycam]
CL: I think so
21:14:43 [heycam]
TB: I think they're different
21:14:50 [heycam]
… Erik's is clarification/corrections to the spec
21:14:56 [heycam]
… this current requirement is a new feature
21:14:59 [heycam]
CC: I won't merge then
21:15:25 [heycam]
CM: do you have a sense Tav in how useful these tiling symmetries might be?
21:15:34 [heycam]
TB: not sure it's that useful to include the symmetries
21:15:41 [heycam]
… including screening might be nice, though
21:15:59 [heycam]
… something that can simulate half toning or screening
21:16:53 [heycam]
CM: I'd like to see some brief writeup before accepting it
21:17:22 [heycam]
ACTION: Tav to write up a brief summary of what a half toning feature would look like
21:17:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3188 - Write up a brief summary of what a half toning feature would look like [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2011-12-22].
21:18:01 [heycam]
ACTION: Tav to get clarification from Olaf on what his advanced pattern request is
21:18:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3189 - Get clarification from Olaf on what his advanced pattern request is [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2011-12-22].
21:18:37 [Zakim]
21:22:33 [cyril]
RRSAgent, pointer please
21:22:33 [RRSAgent]
21:23:11 [ed]
21:23:17 [heycam]
ED: next one is "Video/Audio on Demand"
21:23:35 [heycam]
ED: we did resolve at TPAC to have video and audio elements simliar to HTML5, or with the same functionality
21:24:21 [ChrisL]
same dom or same markup?
21:24:36 [heycam]
CC: we concluded that we wanted to have the HTML5 video/audio elements, unmodified
21:24:38 [ChrisL]
because the svg tiny 1.2 ones have better markup but sucky dom
21:24:45 [ChrisL]
21:24:57 [ChrisL]
so, no time containers on audio and video then
21:25:09 [heycam]
CM: did you discuss issues of namespaces, or overlap between HTML/SVG elements?
21:25:19 [heycam]
CC: I think it was going to be in the SVG namespace
21:25:23 [cyril]
21:26:04 [cyril]
"RESOLUTION: SVG 2 will have a video element in SVG namespace with the same characteristics as the HTML 5 video element"
21:26:35 [heycam]
ED: "same characteristics" doesn't necessarily mean there are no differences
21:26:47 [heycam]
RC: this is for SVG that's not running in a browser?
21:26:52 [heycam]
… because you don't have foreignObject?
21:27:28 [shepazu]
21:27:29 [heycam]
CM: in the minutes the question was raised about foreignObject, how it would be different
21:27:38 [heycam]
… and Jen said that IE doesn't do foreignObject
21:28:25 [heycam]
DS: just because we're having at least the same features as HTML's video element doesn't mean we can't go beyond that, right?
21:28:37 [heycam]
CC: I agree with you but I don't think that's what the people from the Media TF wanted
21:28:41 [heycam]
… they wanted a single version of the element
21:28:52 [heycam]
… they wanted us to modify the HTML5 video element if we wanted additional features
21:28:58 [heycam]
… but I shouldn't speak in their stead
21:29:15 [heycam]
DS: ultimately the video element is going to have to change at some point, so we might handle it then
21:30:59 [shepazu]
s/so we might handle it then/so we should keep current on any changes… we want it full-featured, but only a single underlying codebase/
21:31:11 [heycam]
ED: I think what Olaf is asking for is basically the audio/video controls, not everything else
21:32:02 [ed]
s/for is basically/for is basically the controls attribute on/
21:32:34 [heycam]
CM: olaf's request then doesn't contradict with our plans for audio/video
21:33:55 [Zakim]
21:33:58 [Zakim]
21:34:00 [Zakim]
21:34:01 [Zakim]
21:34:02 [Zakim]
21:34:16 [Zakim]
21:34:26 [heycam]
RRSAgent, make minutes
21:34:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate heycam
21:35:10 [heycam]
Chair: Erik
21:35:15 [heycam]
RRSAgent, make minutes
21:35:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate heycam
21:39:16 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, cyril, in Team_(svg)20:13Z
21:39:20 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)20:13Z has ended
21:39:21 [Zakim]
Attendees were cyril, Tav, [IPcaller], heycam, ed, vhardy, ericm, Doug_Schepers, +1.206.675.aaaa, cabanier, ChrisL
22:11:22 [trackbot]
trackbot has joined #svg