14:02:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swcg
14:02:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/14-swcg-irc
14:02:51 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #swcg
14:03:50 <bhyland> bhyland has joined #swcg
14:04:04 <Guus> Zakim, who is here?
14:04:04 <Zakim> sorry, Guus, I don't know what conference this is
14:04:07 <sandro> zakim, this is swcg
14:04:07 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_CG()9:00AM
14:04:14 <bhyland> dialing in now … apologies for delay
14:04:22 <Zakim> +David_Wood
14:04:43 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
14:04:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see sandro, [IPcaller], Guus, BernHyland, David_Wood
14:04:53 <bhyland> David_Wood is me
14:05:06 <tbaker> tbaker has joined #swcg
14:05:38 <davidwood> zakim, who is here?
14:05:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see sandro, [IPcaller], Guus, BernHyland, David_Wood
14:05:46 <sandro> agenda+ LEDP Workshop
14:05:59 <sandro> agenda+ LD adoption strategies
14:06:31 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
14:06:43 <tbaker> zakim, IPcaller.a is tbaker
14:06:43 <Zakim> +tbaker; got it
14:06:44 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
14:06:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see sandro, [IPcaller], Guus, BernHyland, David_Wood, tbaker
14:07:02 <sandro> zakim, IPcaller is pgroth
14:07:02 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
14:07:58 <pgroth> hi sandro, for the agenda
14:08:04 <pgroth> provenance fpwds
14:08:06 <sandro> agenda+ blogging group status
14:08:27 <bhyland> zakim, who is on the call?
14:08:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see sandro, pgroth, Guus, BernHyland, David_Wood, tbaker (muted)
14:09:33 <sandro> agenda+ provenance fpwds
14:09:51 <bhyland> @pgroth Congrats on your FPWD!
14:09:59 <bhyland> scribe: bhyland
14:10:12 <sandro> topic: Provenance FPWDs
14:10:36 <pgroth> prov-o ontology
14:10:41 <bhyland> Topic: FPWD Provenance "prov-o ontology"
14:10:54 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-o/
14:11:04 <bhyland> pgroth: THis has been published, http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-o/
14:11:15 <sandro> "The PROV Ontology: Model and Formal Semantics"
14:11:32 <Guus> [provo is Dutch word for sixties hippie activists :-) ]
14:11:43 <bhyland> 2nd WD for second data model.  The Provenance WG has been busy!
14:12:09 <bhyland> More will be published in early 2012 for review.
14:12:47 <pgroth> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/primer/Primer.html
14:12:48 <sandro> q?
14:13:12 <bhyland> If someone had time to read one draft during the holidays, they should focus on the PROV Ontology or data model (more complicated but more readable).
14:14:40 <pgroth> Primer: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/primer/Primer.html
14:15:18 <bhyland> Recommended reading is the Provenance Primer, which will be published officially next  year, but is good to go.  See http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/primer/Primer.html
14:15:45 <sandro> topic: LEDP Workshop
14:16:11 <bhyland> One of the co-chairs of the recent LED workshop held at MIT last week, sponsored by Oracle, IBM and (3 Round Stones).  
14:16:33 <bhyland> IBM & Oracle are looking at pursuing Linked Data in product strategies
14:17:03 <bhyland> Workshop home page is here, http://www.w3.org/2011/09/LinkedData/
14:17:15 <Guus> [have to step outside for 5 min]
14:17:50 <bhyland> Extensive discussion around enterprise use of Linked Data lead by 	•	Arnaud Le Hors (IBM)
14:17:50 <bhyland> 	•	David Wood (3 Round Stones)
14:17:50 <bhyland> 	•	Ashok Malhotra (Oracle)
14:18:26 <sandro> ( + Nokia)
14:18:28 <bhyland> The workshop went pretty well, good participation from organizers and EMC, Elsevier.  Sandro, TimBL and EricP spent two days there.
14:19:13 <pgroth> +q
14:19:33 <bhyland> Position papers were required to participate.  The papers covered stability, issues, e.g., URIs that needed to change (sometimes for esoteric reasons), provenance issues … all related to real world use of RDF.  
14:20:18 <sandro> public-ldp@w3.org
14:20:19 <bhyland> Conversation was lively, deep interest by participants.  Participants felt that an Enterprise Linked Data Working Group should be stood up to address these issues.
14:20:33 <sandro> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/rational/library/basic-profile-linked-data
14:20:47 <bhyland> Mailing list has been put together.  IBM is taking the lead on proposing some issues that may become part of the WG charter.
14:21:20 <sandro> ack pgroth 
14:21:30 <bhyland> Member submission will include feedback from IBM, Oracle, EMC, Dave Wood, others.
14:22:14 <sandro> pgroth: Oracle interesting in Prov within GOvernement Risk and Compliance products
14:22:49 <bhyland> Paul: There is good participation from Oracle on the Provenance WG.  Was anyone from Oracle Gov't Risk & Compliance area present?
14:23:11 <pgroth> ack pgroth
14:23:20 <bhyland> DavidWood: No, Ashok was Oracle participant.
14:24:59 <bhyland> Sandro: Interesting points about the workshop was emphasis on Linked Data as a R/W platform, very much emphasizing RDF + ReST
14:26:22 <pgroth> +q
14:26:25 <bhyland> Sandro: IBM wants to keep this separate from semantic web stack, specifically SPARQL & OWL.  Meaning IBM wants to add RDF to ReST which they are comfortable with.  Interesting perspective to hear that RDF + ReST approach is better approach than those previously tried & commonly held as best practice.
14:26:37 <davidwood> LEDP Workshop minutes:
14:26:37 <davidwood>   http://www.w3.org/2011/12/07-ledp-minutes.html
14:27:04 <davidwood> LEDP Workshop schedule, which includes links to slides: http://www.w3.org/2011/09/LinkedData/Schedule
14:27:08 <bhyland> Sandro: Advance Notice of Work will be circulated to solicit interest from W3C members.  Interested if others perk up with this different framing.
14:27:09 <sandro> q?
14:27:13 <sandro> ack pgroth 
14:27:16 <bhyland> q+
14:27:48 <bhyland> pgroth: What standard would this proposed WG pursue? 
14:27:56 <sandro> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/rational/library/basic-profile-linked-data
14:28:40 <bhyland> Sandro: IBM expands TimBL's 4 principles to about 12 items in terms of what they are looking to do, see http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/rational/library/basic-profile-linked-data
14:29:11 <bhyland> Sandro & Davidwood: A standard is needed to do this in a reliable way is needed to facilitate adoption by the big enterprises.
14:29:21 <sandro> q?
14:29:27 <sandro> ack bhyland 
14:30:21 <bhyland> bhyland: Explain the different framing more please ...
14:31:06 <bhyland> davidwood: There is as basic set of approaches that are sufficient to break the N2 API problem between enterprise products that is not database centric and therefore doesn't need a query language based solution.  
14:31:06 <pgroth> +q
14:33:07 <sandro> ack pgroth 
14:34:48 <bhyland> davidwood: It is going to take big companies some time to really realize the ramifications of having a standard query language available on the Web for people to use … that will take a decade to fully permeate all the complex aspects of product development, systems interoperability, database interoperability.  We cannot expect the big database vendors to turn on a dime, it will take time to overcome the inertia.
14:35:23 <pgroth> q+
14:35:46 <pgroth> q-
14:35:54 <bhyland> davidwood: the problem being discussed extensively was reducing different APIs, rather, looking to RDF as common data interchange format.
14:37:44 <bhyland> pgroth: Pharma companies are facing challenges that would be solved by using a common linked data format … Companies are always asking to solve these common set of questions and I have to usually invent something.  It would be nice if there was a commonly used standard.
14:39:16 <sandro> zakim, agenda?
14:39:16 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
14:39:18 <Zakim> 1. LEDP Workshop [from sandro]
14:39:19 <Zakim> 2. LD adoption strategies [from sandro]
14:39:21 <Zakim> 3. blogging group status [from sandro]
14:39:23 <Zakim> 4. provenance fpwds [from sandro]
14:40:27 <bhyland> Sandro: Discussed upping the volume of blogposts to the Semantic Activity and eGov Activity pages
14:41:19 <davidwood> +1, although I've promised to write some news stories for RDF WG and am behind schedule
14:41:40 <bhyland> Suggested monthly blog posts that are newsy in nature.
14:42:02 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/
14:42:05 <bhyland> bhyland: confirmed she is posting to the eGov activity page today with the CIO primer on LD
14:42:21 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2011/10/23/5-simple-provenance-statements/
14:43:14 <sandro> pgroth: Don't expose guts, but do provide simple view
14:43:31 <bhyland> pgroth: Suggested higher level summary, high points of the progress made to date in a given WG is a good way to go.
14:43:39 <bhyland> Focus on the simple stuff, not the detailed nuances.
14:43:47 <bhyland> +1 pgroth
14:44:17 <pgroth> but not just highlights, easy interpretation
14:46:14 <sandro> topic: LD adoption strategies
14:46:16 <bhyland> Topic: LD Adoption Strategies
14:46:35 <sandro> bhyland: From SemTechBiz/East, in DC, 2 weeks ago
14:47:06 <sandro> ... feedback from audience mentioned, often, the need for better materials for making the case to ones boss about ROI, Success Stories
14:47:24 <sandro> ... needn't be traditional ROI, since this was largely public sector
14:47:59 <sandro> ... We (3RoudnStones) did something like this for EPA, and we're working on repurposing it for general W3C use
14:48:19 <sandro> ... I'm also trying to convince W3C management we need a concerted program here, including Videos, ....
14:48:44 <sandro> ... It's all well and good to have these best practices, but sometimes we need to make the case
14:48:58 <sandro> ... are folks on the call finding this being asked for?
14:49:54 <pgroth> +q
14:49:58 <Guus> q+
14:50:57 <sandro> bhyland: Do you find yourself needing a CIO Primer, covering eg how this relates to Relational Technology, and describing ROI and success story?
14:51:04 <tbaker> ack tbaker
14:51:49 <davidwood> Semantic Web and the Linked Data Enterprise by Dean Allemang: http://3roundstones.com/led_book/led-allemang.html
14:51:55 <sandro> tbaker: Just an observation.    The schema.org approach, providing fixed solutions.    I wonder how successful that is, providing off-the-shelf solutuons.
14:51:58 <bhyland> Tbaker: The schema.org approach is to provide fixed solutions and I'm wondering how successful that is & are there any lessons learned?  Any benefit to providing "off the shelf" solutions.
14:52:14 <bhyland> q+
14:53:06 <bhyland> tbaker: The idea is to give people something simple that they can copy and use in their apps.  How successful is that and is it being taken up?  Any lessons we can learn for pitching sem web?
14:53:11 <pgroth> queue
14:54:39 <sandro> ack pgroth 
14:55:34 <sandro> pgroth: Clear guidelines, Clear best practice, "What do I do now" -- and they want it from an official source.    Schema.org has been fantastic for that.   In my domains, there is not a lot of common space, so having these kinds of recommendations would help a lot.
14:55:56 <sandro> pgroth: Having nice swag, marketing materlsa is great.
14:55:58 <sandro> ack Guus 
14:55:59 <bhyland> pgroth: I've had a lot of requests from people on clear guidelines, clear best practices on "what do I do now" and they want it from an "official source".  Schema.org has been fantastic for that being very clear on what to do.  Especially relevant where this is unclear or unspecified guidance. Always having nice swag & marketing kit helps drive the point home.
14:56:17 <Zakim> -Guus
14:56:29 <bhyland> Guus: I agree.  … lost Guus' audio
14:56:35 <sandro> Guus: Of course, I agree.  During OWL, and the Best Practices ....   [phone call dropped]
14:56:44 <sandro> ack bhyland 
14:57:20 <Zakim> + +20598aaaa
14:57:22 <bhyland> sandro: We agree that clear guidance is great, and what each of the respective WG's are trying to do.
14:57:37 <Guus> zakim, 205 is me
14:57:37 <Zakim> sorry, Guus, I do not recognize a party named '205'
14:57:48 <bhyland> zakim, 205 is guus
14:57:48 <Zakim> sorry, bhyland, I do not recognize a party named '205'
14:58:02 <bhyland> zakim, aaaa is Guus
14:58:02 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
14:59:02 <sandro> guus: A big difference between what people would like to have, and what they are willing to do.
14:59:12 <bhyland> Guus: There is a big difference between what people would like to have and what people are willing to do… it is difficult to say we're going to produce best practice ….
14:59:24 <sandro> guus: In the SWBPDWG we had people working on the link to Software Engineering....
14:59:49 <sandro> guus: Either you're product specific, or you're very general and don't say much.
15:00:06 <davidwood> q+ to suggest some places where a working group can work well
15:00:11 <bhyland> Guus: You have to either be very specific or stay very general which doesn't say very much.  Defining the middle ground is hard.
15:02:42 <sandro> q?
15:03:11 <pgroth> gotta go
15:03:26 <Zakim> -pgroth
15:03:36 <Zakim> -BernHyland
15:03:40 <Zakim> -David_Wood
15:03:42 <Zakim> -sandro
15:03:44 <Zakim> -tbaker
15:03:44 <bhyland> bhyland: There is a gap between well-defined standards and making the case to IT managers who have the budget to authorize staff/consultant to implement the standard & best practices in a given prototype or preliminary project.
15:03:47 <sandro> Meeting: Semantic Web Coordination Group
15:03:53 <sandro> chair: Sandro Hawke
15:03:55 <Zakim> -Guus
15:03:58 <Zakim> SW_CG()9:00AM has ended
15:04:00 <Zakim> Attendees were sandro, Guus, BernHyland, David_Wood, tbaker, pgroth, +20598aaaa
15:04:01 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:04:03 <bhyland> Sandro: Will you make minutes?
15:04:06 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:04:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/14-swcg-minutes.html sandro
15:04:10 <sandro> yes, bhyland, thanks!
15:04:18 <bhyland> ta
15:04:20 <bhyland> bye!
15:11:51 <sandro> options: final
15:11:54 <sandro> options: -final
15:11:57 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:11:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/12/14-swcg-minutes.html sandro