IRC log of css on 2011-12-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:21:25 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #css
16:21:25 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/12/07-css-irc
16:21:30 [glazou]: Zakim, this will be Style
16:21:30 [Zakim]: ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 39 minutes
16:21:35 [glazou]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:23:17 [glazou]: Regrets: cesaracebal, Chris, dstorey, danielweck
16:24:58 [jdaggett]: jdaggett has joined #css
16:41:40 [glazou]: hi John
16:46:32 [ericm]: ericm has joined #css
16:46:38 [glazou]: Regrets: cesaracebal, Chris, dstorey, danielweck, kimberlyblessing
16:51:56 [jdaggett]: glazou: heya
16:52:17 [glazou]: sorry to keep you late in front of the computer...
16:52:34 [glazou]: my point, exactly :-D
16:52:35 [sleepy_jdaggett]: yes, my eyeballs are dying...
16:53:06 [glenn]: zakim, this is css
16:53:06 [Zakim]: glenn, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be css".
16:55:02 [bradk]: bradk has joined #css
16:55:12 [glazou]: glenn: already done
16:55:13 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:55:22 [Zakim]: +??P16
16:55:32 [glenn]: glenn has joined #css
16:55:34 [sleepy_jdaggett]: zakim, ??p16 is me
16:55:34 [Zakim]: +sleepy_jdaggett; got it
16:56:27 [Zakim]: +SteveZ
16:56:55 [Zakim]: +glenn
16:57:09 [antonp]: antonp has joined #css
16:57:27 [glazou]: sip bridge not working for me, pls hold on
16:57:45 [Zakim]: +antonp
16:58:00 [Zakim]: +??P34
16:58:06 [bradk]: google voice not working in webkit...
16:58:16 [Zakim]: +??P36
16:58:21 [glazou]: Zakim, ??P36 is me
16:58:24 [Zakim]: +glazou; got it
16:58:32 [Zakim]: + +1.510.364.aaaa
16:58:42 [Zakim]: - +1.510.364.aaaa
16:58:49 [glazou]: Zakim, who is here?
16:58:49 [Zakim]: On the phone I see sleepy_jdaggett, SteveZ, glenn, antonp, ??P34, glazou
16:58:51 [Zakim]: On IRC I see antonp, glenn, bradk, ericm, sleepy_jdaggett, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, kojiishi, danielfilho, ksweeney, Ms2ger, miketaylr, rworth, drublic, tantek, florianr, plinss,
16:58:55 [Zakim]: ... stearns, arronei, brianman, Bert, lhnz, hober, trackbot, brianman_, ed, TabAtkins, pjrm, dglazkov, shepazu, gsnedders, paul_irish, krijnhuman, fantasai, CSSWG_LogBot
16:59:14 [glazou]: Zakim, ??p36 is rossen
16:59:14 [Zakim]: I already had ??P36 as glazou, glazou
16:59:23 [glazou]: Zakim, ??P34 is rossen
16:59:24 [Zakim]: +rossen; got it
16:59:32 [Zakim]: + +1.510.364.aabb
16:59:54 [smfr]: smfr has joined #css
16:59:54 [glazou]: Zakim, aabb is ericm
16:59:54 [Zakim]: +ericm; got it
17:00:11 [glazou]: bradk: eheh
17:00:20 [Zakim]: + +1.619.846.aacc
17:00:27 [hober]: Zakim, aacc is me
17:00:27 [Zakim]: +hober; got it
17:00:28 [Zakim]: +stearns
17:00:31 [Zakim]: +??P49
17:00:49 [glazou]: Zakim, mute ??P49
17:00:49 [Zakim]: ??P49 should now be muted
17:01:00 [Zakim]: +smfr
17:01:04 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
17:01:14 [vhardy]: vhardy has joined #css
17:01:16 [JohnJan]: JohnJan has joined #css
17:01:22 [Zakim]: -??P49
17:01:23 [Zakim]: +plinss
17:01:23 [JohnJan]: zakim, microsoft has johnjan
17:01:27 [Zakim]: +johnjan; got it
17:01:50 [sylvaing]: sylvaing has joined #css
17:01:50 [myakura]: myakura has joined #css
17:01:58 [SteveZ]: SteveZ has joined #css
17:02:10 [oyvind]: oyvind has joined #css
17:02:14 [Zakim]: +sylvaing
17:02:19 [glazou]: Zakim, you lag
17:02:24 [Zakim]: +Oliver_Goldman
17:02:30 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'you lag', glazou
17:02:36 [Zakim]: +??P68
17:02:44 [Zakim]: +??P70
17:03:07 [glazou]: glazou has joined #css
17:03:16 [glazou]: Zakim, who is here?
17:03:18 [Zakim]: +tantek
17:03:26 [tantek]: Thanks Zakim
17:03:34 [Zakim]: On the phone I see sleepy_jdaggett, SteveZ, glenn, antonp, rossen, glazou, ericm, hober, stearns, smfr, [Microsoft], plinss, sylvaing, Oliver_Goldman, ??P68, ??P70, tantek
17:03:39 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] has johnjan
17:03:44 [glazou]: Zakim, who is noisy?
17:03:47 [Zakim]: +bradk
17:03:51 [Zakim]: On IRC I see glazou, oyvind, SteveZ, myakura, sylvaing, JohnJan, vhardy, smfr, antonp, glenn, bradk, ericm, sleepy_jdaggett, RRSAgent, Zakim, kojiishi, danielfilho, ksweeney,
17:03:56 [Zakim]: ... Ms2ger, miketaylr, rworth, drublic, tantek, florianr, plinss, stearns, arronei, brianman, Bert, lhnz, hober, trackbot, brianman_, ed, TabAtkins, pjrm, dglazkov, shepazu,
17:04:00 [Zakim]: ... gsnedders, paul_irish, krijnhuman, fantasai, CSSWG_LogBot
17:04:11 [Zakim]: glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P68 (29%), ??P70 (47%)
17:04:19 [dbaron]: dbaron has joined #css
17:04:34 [Bert]: q- ??P68
17:04:47 [Zakim]: +[Mozilla]
17:05:29 [Zakim]: +??P89
17:05:44 [florianr]: Zakim, I am ??P89
17:05:45 [Zakim]: +??P90
17:05:52 [kojiishi]: zakim, ??p90 is me
17:06:05 [Cathy]: Cathy has joined #css
17:06:06 [Zakim]: +florianr; got it
17:06:12 [Zakim]: +kojiishi; got it
17:06:15 [dsinger]: dsinger has joined #css
17:07:05 [dbaron]: ScribeNick: dbaron
17:07:09 [dbaron]: Meeting: CSS WG Teleconference
17:07:13 [dbaron]: Chair: Daniel Glazman
17:07:16 [dbaron]: Scribe: David Baron
17:07:18 [dbaron]: Topic: Agenda?
17:07:31 [dbaron]: glazou: any extra items? Tab wanted to add item on switching back to fantasai's current-work listing
17:07:39 [dbaron]: glazou: I suggest doing that after the high-priority items.
17:07:46 [dbaron]: Topic: Bucharest meeting in May
17:07:55 [dbaron]: glazou: Sent email to list to confirm the dates of the meeting.
17:08:07 [dbaron]: glazou: Vincent, can we confirm the dates?
17:08:15 [dbaron]: Vincent: May 9-10-11 (Wed-Thu-Fri)
17:08:24 [dbaron]: Vincent: FX meeting with SVG would be Wednesday morning
17:08:33 [dbaron]: glazou: When to expect hotel recommendations?
17:08:43 [dbaron]: ACTION Vincent provide recommended hotels for Bucharest meeting ASAP
17:08:44 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-407 - Provide recommended hotels for Bucharest meeting ASAP [on Vincent Hardy - due 2011-12-14].
17:08:56 [dbaron]: jdaggett: is there a wiki page with address of venue, etc.?
17:09:01 [ksweeney]: ksweeney has left #css
17:09:29 [dbaron]: ACTION vincent to make wiki page for Bucharest with location of meeting, etc.
17:09:30 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-408 - Make wiki page for Bucharest with location of meeting, etc. [on Vincent Hardy - due 2011-12-14].
17:09:46 [dbaron]: Topic: Multicol spanning margins
17:09:50 [glazou]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011OctDec/0138.html
17:09:54 [glazou]: http://www.w3.org/mid/4ED416B1.7070902@inkedblade.net
17:09:54 [dbaron]: glazou: previously waiting for fantasai to post blog
17:10:01 [dbaron]: fantasai: That's been done
17:10:02 [fantasai]: http://www.css3.info/multi-column-margin-collapse/
17:10:07 [dbaron]: glazou: We decided to make a decision this week.
17:10:30 [dbaron]: rossen: Can we do this as the second item, in 5 minutes?
17:10:47 [tantek]: I updated http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/2012 per the confirmed Bucharest dates above.
17:10:49 [dbaron]: Topic: Update on Unicode TR50
17:10:53 [glazou]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011OctDec/0249.html
17:11:05 [dbaron]: jdaggett: This is text-orientation; action was for Sylvain and Ted to get feedback from Microsoft and Apple.
17:11:27 [howcome]: howcome has joined #css
17:11:49 [dbaron]: sylvain: ... would come back to me with details on latest version of note. Chatted with Elika last time. Sergei will have another look at it and I'll share what he says on the list.
17:12:06 [dbaron]: sylvain: We've provided feedback in the past; Sergei's been busy with other things.
17:12:18 [dbaron]: jdaggett: At ??? ... Peter Constable ... he'd tell you who was there.
17:12:24 [dbaron]: jdaggett: They were talking about other proposals.
17:12:38 [dbaron]: fantasai: What they were proposing was different from what Sergei was taking.
17:12:44 [dbaron]: s/taking/saying/
17:12:53 [Zakim]: +howcome
17:13:05 [dbaron]: Ted: I've got the conversation going internally, waiting to get more useful feedback for list/wiki.
17:13:16 [dbaron]: Ted: Like Sylvain I don't have the knowledge myself.
17:13:45 [dbaron]: Ted: My knee-jerk reaction is that if WebKit and IE agree we should go with that, but I'll have some feedback on the list as soon as I can.
17:14:02 [dbaron]: jdaggett: Especially helpful would be if there are things that seem bad to you about the actual proposal.
17:14:24 [dbaron]: Sylvain: What kind of timeline? Something needed before the new year?
17:14:38 [dbaron]: jdaggett: Concerned about that, since second round of comments has been extended to mid-January, but if we're not careful we'll miss that.
17:14:59 [dbaron]: glazou: need an action?
17:15:02 [dbaron]: jdaggett: have 2 existing
17:15:17 [dbaron]: Topic: Multicol spanning margins
17:15:24 [glazou]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011OctDec/0138.html
17:15:41 [dbaron]: howcome: Certainly an issue we'd like to settle, hopefully today.
17:15:55 [dbaron]: howcome: I don't see this as a major issue; it's a corner case, but will have implications for authors.
17:16:10 [dbaron]: howcome: We'd published a blog on the topic. I'm not quite up-to-date with the feedback on that post, but it's been made.
17:16:16 [fantasai]: http://www.css3.info/multi-column-margin-collapse/
17:16:16 [dbaron]: fantasai: I can summarize the feedback.
17:16:48 [dbaron]: fantasai: The blog post tried to get people to imagine the scenario we're envisioning, and shows the 2 options we're considering.
17:16:59 [dbaron]: fantasai: Most of the comments say collapsed margins for consistency with the rest of CSS.
17:17:05 [dbaron]: fantasai: A few suggest no collapsing.
17:17:18 [dbaron]: fantasai: A few wanted not collapsing for consistency (which doesn't make sense).
17:17:27 [dbaron]: florian: A few said they wanted no collapsing in CSS.
17:17:35 [dbaron]: fantasai: And some suggestions for a margin collapsing control property.
17:17:48 [dbaron]: fantasai: But most suggestions seemed to want collapsing just like regular paragraphs.
17:17:51 [glazou]: Ms2ger: not I know of
17:17:58 [glazou]: should be public
17:18:08 [dbaron]: howcome: I think if the example had column-span set to 2 out of 3 columns, it might have been slightly different. That's a futuristic case.
17:18:28 [dbaron]: florian: Even if we agree that collapsing is better, it doesn't tell us whether we should prefer solution A or C.
17:18:33 [Rossen]: Rossen has joined #css
17:18:41 [tantek]: good catch Ms2ger
17:19:10 [glazou]: ACTION howcome to repost his message to www-style https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011OctDec/0138.html
17:19:10 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-409 - Repost his message to www-style https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011OctDec/0138.html [on Håkon Wium Lie - due 2011-12-14].
17:19:30 [dbaron]: fantasai: I was talking with Kimberly while we were working on this blog post. The mental model she had (with picture) was that you have a multicolumn element, then you have a row of columns before the spanner, then the spanners, and then a row of multicolumn elements after the spanners. The model was that the row of columns was a row of columns but it behaved as a block-level element that was a sibling of all of the spanners.
17:19:31 [tantek]: thanks glazou
17:19:45 [dbaron]: fantasai: And inside the block-level element you had regular block flow with the rows of columns being a special block-level block.
17:19:51 [dbaron]: anton: (too fast)
17:20:16 [fantasai]: s/block/box/
17:20:28 [dbaron]: anton: At the moment that mental model makes sense because columns can't have vertical margin because they can't be targeted with a selector, but in future they might be able to be targeted.
17:20:28 [Hixie]: Hixie has joined #css
17:20:48 [dbaron]: anton: So if the columns themselves had bottom margin, would we expect that to collapse with whatever comes next?
17:21:03 [dbaron]: anton: I'd expect the margins on the columns themselves not to collapse.
17:21:12 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.a]
17:21:17 [Zakim]: -rossen
17:21:22 [dbaron]: anton: I think what's important is the inter-spanner relationship rather than the beginning/end of the spanners.
17:21:42 [dbaron]: florian: Even for inter-spanner behavior A and C propose different things: margin collapsing was the same but floating was not.
17:21:47 [glazou]: slower antonp please
17:21:52 [dbaron]: anton: Makes sense to allow floats to behave as in normal block flow.
17:21:58 [dbaron]: rossen: Would you expect floats to expect flow of column?
17:22:03 [dbaron]: ?: no, not in flow of column
17:22:22 [dbaron]: anton: spanners in A or C are wrapped in a BFC. Question is whether each wrapped independently or all in one.
17:22:56 [dbaron]: rossen: In B you don't have a BFC; they are BFC.
17:23:00 [dbaron]: florian: B is ruled out by the poll
17:23:43 [dbaron]: ...
17:24:01 [dbaron]: anton: If there's just one spanner it's still wrapped in a BFC (in A), but if there are 2 or 3 they would all be wrapped in a BFC.
17:24:21 [florianr]: In A, spanners are not individually BFCs, but their are together wrapped in an anonymous one
17:24:30 [florianr]: in C, each spanner is a BFC
17:24:53 [dbaron]: Håkon: my preference is C
17:25:28 [dbaron]: rossen: In the blog post the example is oversimplified; just text and spanners. Would like to see example that's more complicated, e.g., tables in the column and the spanners coming from deep inside the tables.
17:25:35 [fantasai]: D, each column row is a BFC and everything else just behaves like regular block flow
17:25:36 [dbaron]: florian: That's probably something we don't want to support at all.
17:25:49 [dbaron]: rossen: Then I'd want spanners to come only from the ??? level of the column.
17:26:04 [dbaron]: florian: After talking w/ implementors, would be comfortable with that.
17:26:12 [dbaron]: sylvain: Things become really weird.
17:26:24 [dbaron]: florian: The property just doesn't do anything when you apply it on something "too deep"
17:26:32 [dbaron]: anton: Restrict it to the BFC. A spanner can't escape from a BFC.
17:27:00 [dbaron]: florian: We can argue back and forth; we certainly want to forbid things that are way too deep like inside a table.
17:27:18 [dbaron]: rossen: The first time I looked at it, the deeper structures were the problem I ran into it. That makes collapsing pretty hairy.
17:27:29 [dbaron]: rossen: Everyone seems to be ignoring the general case.
17:27:49 [dbaron]: rossen: Either we say this is level 1 only or ??? ???
17:28:04 [dbaron]: florian: I don't think anyone wants to span things that come from deep down, and I think we should resolve on that.
17:28:20 [dbaron]: Håkon: ...
17:28:33 [dbaron]: Sylvain: We just need to define what Rossen means.
17:28:56 [dbaron]: fantasai: I suggest we resolve that the spanner has to be in the same BFC as the main level of the column content.
17:29:08 [dbaron]: Håkon: someone suggested making each column a BFC
17:29:11 [dbaron]: anton: but I've gone off that idea
17:29:24 [dbaron]: glazou: I'm almost hearing consensus.
17:29:40 [dbaron]: Rossen: BFC or non-BFC-ness of spanners themselves... not resolved
17:29:47 [dbaron]: florian: we should resolve on that first
17:30:03 [dbaron]: Sylvain: I've heard a couple of definitions of level 1 already.
17:30:18 [dbaron]: Sylvain & florian talk at the same time
17:30:31 [dbaron]: Sylvain: We agree that spanning should be scoped at some level.
17:30:34 [dbaron]: Rossen: to the BFC of the column
17:30:57 [dbaron]: Håkon: definition of spanning is that the element spans across all columns of the nearest multicol ancestor of the same BFC
17:30:57 [howcome]: The element spans across all columns of the nearest multicol
17:30:57 [howcome]: ancestor of the same block formatting context.
17:31:13 [dbaron]: anton: we might need to tinker with that wording
17:31:22 [dbaron]: q+
17:31:31 [dbaron]: anton: question is whether spanner can escape inline-block
17:31:45 [howcome]: Proposed definition of spanner: The element spans across all columns of the nearest multicol ancestor of the same block formatting context.
17:31:47 [fantasai]: dbaron: How could a multi-column not establish a BFC?
17:32:25 [dbaron]: q-
17:33:37 [dbaron]: RESOLUTION: column-spanning elements can only span when the closest ancestor BFC is established by the multicol (whether by the columns or the multicol)
17:33:58 [dbaron]: ?: need an action for somebody to propose wording for this
17:34:01 [dbaron]: Rossen: I can write it
17:34:08 [dbaron]: glazou: Back to the choice between A and C.
17:34:10 [dbaron]: fantasai: and D
17:34:37 [dbaron]: fantasai: D is where the multicolumn element establishes a block formatting context and column spanning elements are treated as regular blocks and each column row is a block level BFC within the multicol BFC
17:34:53 [dbaron]: fantasai: It's like the table element having an outer table that has the captions and the table box
17:35:16 [dbaron]: florian: This D model wouldn't play nice with the ability to select individual columns and do things with them (in the future).
17:35:30 [dbaron]: rossen: Especially if multicolumns are going towards ??? columns that Håkon was proposing.
17:35:43 [dbaron]: ACTION rossen propose wording for column-spanning elements can only span when the closest ancestor BFC is established by the multicol (whether by the columns or the multicol)
17:35:44 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-410 - Propose wording for column-spanning elements can only span when the closest ancestor BFC is established by the multicol (whether by the columns or the multicol) [on Rossen Atanassov - due 2011-12-14].
17:36:00 [dbaron]: Håkon: Can't we just pick one of A and C ?
17:36:11 [dbaron]: fantasai: That's just what came out of the discussion I had with Kimberly. Though we didn't discuss floats.
17:36:39 [dbaron]: Rossen: On option A, if we were going to go with the non-BFC behavior where floats can affect subsequent spanning elements, what would be drawing order and who would be drawing floats?
17:37:02 [dbaron]: Rossen: You meant(?) anonymous BFC; in our implementation we have nothing of this sort.
17:37:31 [dbaron]: Rossen: Option C seems fairly consistent: spanners will collapse margins between themselves and keep everything else to themselves.
17:38:01 [dbaron]: Florian: There is another difference between A and C: if the spanner itself has children do the margins of the children collapse with things in the next spanner. In C they don't; in A they do.
17:38:20 [dbaron]: Rossen/Florian: Also if there is an empty spanner between 2 non-empty spanners
17:38:46 [dbaron]: Anton: It depends what you want these spanners to be. If you want them to look like normal block formatting then they ought to collapse. If they're each individually special then it's fine that they don't.
17:38:53 [dbaron]: Rossen: I think they're each individually special.
17:38:56 [TabAtkins_]: TabAtkins_ has joined #css
17:39:09 [TabAtkins_]: Urgh, apologies everyone.
17:39:10 [dbaron]: Rossen: At the end of the day we're taking the spanners out of the flow and collapsing the margins between the spanners themselves.
17:39:35 [dbaron]: Rossen: Whether or not we have to treate empty spanners the way we treat emptyp blocks today. But if we're taking them out of the block flow and collapsing margins in between them, then I don't see a reason to make them non-BFC.
17:39:48 [dbaron]: Rossen: There's no other precedent for taking anything out of the flow that isn't a BFC.
17:39:59 [dbaron]: Anton: I'm not entirely convinced we're taking stuff out of the flow here.
17:40:08 [Zakim]: +tabatkins_
17:40:10 [dbaron]: Anton: If you've got a spanner you're ending the columns and then starting them again.
17:40:21 [dbaron]: Anton: They disrupt the multicol, but they're not out of the flow.
17:40:30 [dbaron]: dbaron: I t hink they're out of the flow.
17:40:42 [dbaron]: Rossen: They're out of the flow in our implementation apparently.
17:40:48 [dbaron]: fantasai: I see this more like a block-in-inline case.
17:40:53 [dbaron]: fantasai: Jumping out to an outer flow.
17:40:59 [Bert]: (I think D works, but there appears to be very little difference with A in the visual effect.)
17:41:09 [dbaron]: Håkon: I think we have consensus for C. I don't hear anyone arguing for A.
17:41:28 [dbaron]: various: does anyone object to C?
17:41:31 [fantasai]: (Bert, except when there are margins on the children of the spanner)
17:41:32 [dbaron]: SteveZ: Only mildly.
17:42:00 [glazou]: yes
17:42:06 [Bert]: (Ah right. So then I think I actually like D better. :-) )
17:42:14 [dbaron]: SteveZ: I think one of the things Elika just said: treatment of blocks in an inline. If you look at is a headings it doesn't make much sense. But if you look at it as temporarily switching back to single-column, it seems like the user would want those pieces to behave as inside one single column.
17:42:34 [dbaron]: Florian: If you want that, you can have a containing element be the spanner rather than make several consecutive elements spanners.
17:42:48 [dbaron]: Håkon: As long as you can insert a div around ...
17:42:54 [fantasai]: (Oh, wait, no I think you're right!)
17:42:59 [dbaron]: Steve: I'm not strong on this, just wondering wat users will expect.
17:43:00 [fantasai]: (A and D are equivalent)
17:43:00 [vhardy]: vhardy has joined #css
17:43:08 [fantasai]: (C and D are different)
17:43:26 [dbaron]: Håkon: Float behavior will be different, that's true.
17:43:42 [dbaron]: glazou: Given constraints, I think authors won't meet expectations anyway.
17:43:43 [glazou]: LOL
17:43:51 [dbaron]: fantasai: Bert points A and D are equivalent, so I'm leaning towards A.
17:44:25 [dbaron]: fantasai: If we take the premise that a column row stretches across the entire column and clears all the floats before it, then A expresses that behavior.
17:44:41 [dbaron]: fantasai: Interrupting the column flow and going to a flow that stretches across the entire block... can resume multicol afterwards.
17:44:43 [dbaron]: q+
17:44:54 [dbaron]: fantasai: Within the anonymous BFC everything is a regular block.
17:45:12 [dbaron]: fantasai: Nothing different from ... except border of multicol box goes around everything.
17:46:26 [dbaron]: dbaron: (minute later) pref C
17:46:40 [dbaron]: Håkon: implemented ... . ...
17:47:13 [dbaron]: Florian: Could have strange cases: span:all followed by span:3 would lead to weird results if you have 3 columns
17:47:18 [dbaron]: fantasai: I'm happy with C.
17:47:21 [dbaron]: Steve: I can live with C.
17:47:27 [dbaron]: glazou: anyone objecting?
17:47:39 [dbaron]: ?: Alex, but he's not here?
17:47:58 [dbaron]: RESOLVED: each column spanning element establishes a separate BFC (option C)
17:48:03 [florianr]: s/?/florianr/
17:48:32 [dbaron]: Topic: Editorship of cssom and cssom-view
17:48:37 [dbaron]: glazou: Anne left the group.
17:48:43 [dbaron]: glazou: We need editors for these documents.
17:48:51 [dbaron]: glazou: Proposal from Glenn to be coeditor.
17:49:01 [dbaron]: Tab: At last TPAC Shane Stevens offered to edit as wel.
17:49:07 [dbaron]: jdaggett: Florian offered?
17:49:11 [dbaron]: Florian: In Media Queries
17:49:15 [dbaron]: Sylvain: I can help with MQ too.
17:49:49 [glenn]: is here
17:49:53 [dbaron]: jdaggett: OM is kind of a key spec; also to some extent OM-view. Is that the right spec for people new to the group? Would be more comfortable with somebody with more familiarity.
17:50:01 [dbaron]: Tab: With Shane, I expect I'd be acting as a mentor for that spec.
17:50:25 [dbaron]: jdaggett: I'd feel better if he was working on different specs.
17:50:38 [dbaron]: Glenn: I've implemented cssom and cssom-view and CSS formatting semantics in 2 or 3 products.
17:51:06 [dbaron]: glazou: Tab, what's Shane's opinion?
17:51:13 [dbaron]: Tab: He's fine with Glenn being a coeditor.
17:51:30 [dbaron]: Glenn: I'd suggest both Shane and I be assigned as coeditors as a starting point, and if others want to help we can change that over time.
17:51:50 [dbaron]: Florian: I think Shane said he was interested in documenting existing compatible bits.
17:52:08 [dbaron]: Tab: Yeah, he dosen't want to start working on new stuff until we get the existing stuff documented & stable
17:52:18 [dbaron]: Sylvain: Fundamental specs, but were neglected for a long time.
17:52:44 [dbaron]: Glenn: One reason I voluneteered because I'm working with an external org called DOMA (?) normatively referencing both of these, and identified these as needing significant work to get to CR.
17:52:57 [fantasai]: sylvain^: I'm more concerned about what we're working on rather than who's working on them.
17:53:18 [dbaron]: Sylvain: One issue recently was that DLMA was depending on editor's drafts. Are we going to have shenanigans of that sort if draft changing what previous draft said?
17:53:33 [dbaron]: Glenn: You'd formally objected to a change in css3-fonts because it was incompatible with a prior editor's draft.
17:53:57 [dbaron]: Glenn: Formally, DLNA policy does not allow normative ref to anything other than final spec (REC in W3C). They're interested in participating to move all the dependencies forward.
17:54:23 [dbaron]: Glenn: The css3-fonts issue I brought up while representing Samsung has been closed as far as I'm concerned. I'm now representing Cox Communications in this WG.
17:54:50 [dbaron]: Glenn: I wish to help to move to REC as fast as possible not only these specs but other specs I can help with.
17:54:51 [dbaron]: q|+
17:54:52 [dbaron]: q+
17:55:13 [dbaron]: glazou: What this WG would like to see is a schedule for these documents. They've been orphaned for a long time; they're crucial for CSS.
17:55:32 [dbaron]: glazou: Do you think this is doable? Doing the steps to move these documents along the rec track.
17:55:45 [dbaron]: Glazou: At least by the end of the year, I'd like to provide a proposed schedule for the work.
17:56:12 [dbaron]: Florian: Seems like Shane is interested in documenting the stable bits, and Glenn interested in moving to R.c
17:56:25 [dbaron]: Sylvain: What is the work? Reduce to what's implemented? Values API?
17:56:33 [dbaron]: Tab: I think 2.1-style :reduce to what's implement.d
17:56:46 [dbaron]: Tab: New stuff needs to be in CSSOM level 2.
17:56:51 [dbaron]: glazou: I agree with tat
17:56:52 [dbaron]: that
17:57:17 [dbaron]: q-
17:57:25 [dbaron]: dbaron: was going to express concerne about (minute later 2)
17:57:32 [dbaron]: glazou: I think I'm hearing consensus.
17:57:43 [fantasai]: dbaron^: I'd be concerned about moving the new stuff to REC "as fast as possible", but if we're splitting that out I have no concern.
17:57:57 [dbaron]: RESOLVED: Glenn and Shane coedit cssom and cssom-view, Florian and Sylvain become coeditors of css3-mediaqueries, and we will revisit schedules in 2 weeks
17:58:24 [glenn]: thanks, looking forward to accomplishing this work in a timely manner
17:58:28 [glazou]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0395.html
17:58:32 [dbaron]: Topic: Moving stuff from css3-text to level 4
17:58:50 [dbaron]: ?: take more than 2 minutes
17:58:57 [dbaron]: Tab: unless we agree to just do what Elika's saying
17:59:02 [dbaron]: Topic: current work page
17:59:12 [dbaron]: Tab: It's been more than a month; new page should be up.
17:59:22 [dbaron]: Tab: what do we need to do to make this happen?
17:59:32 [dbaron]: Tab: Bert, if there's still work you need to do, let me help you with it
17:59:38 [glenn]: s/DOMA (?)/DLNA/
17:59:51 [Zakim]: -ericm
17:59:58 [dbaron]: Bert: I started discussing with Elika on common list of drafts. Long to do list. The content is what I'm worried about.
18:00:09 [dbaron]: Tab: The content that Elika proposed is much more useful than what's there right now.
18:00:13 [dbaron]: Tab: we can tweak it after it's up
18:00:17 [dbaron]: glazou: I agree with that.
18:00:21 [dbaron]: Bert: I'm not so sure that content is usefu.
18:00:25 [dbaron]: glazou: We had a resolution on that
18:00:35 [dbaron]: Bert: You had a resolution that you think it's more useful.
18:00:37 [dbaron]: glazou: the group
18:01:01 [dbaron]: Bert: I'd like to find some way to integrate that. The original text that Elika proposed is not complete, and there are some distinctions that I think shouldn't be made.
18:01:07 [dbaron]: Tab: Let us do that afterwards.
18:01:11 [dbaron]: glazou: It's better.
18:01:19 [dbaron]: Bert: I don't see that -- there are so many categories: what do they mean?
18:01:25 [Zakim]: -sleepy_jdaggett
18:01:34 [dbaron]: Tab: They mean the English names of the categories, and arranged in order of stabilization.
18:01:46 [dbaron]: glazou: we have a resolution
18:01:49 [dbaron]: fantasai: not technically
18:02:19 [dbaron]: Bert: I have a lot of freedom in making these pages, but I still have responsibility there: I'm making them on behalf of the W3C not on behalf of the working group.
18:02:43 [dbaron]: Bert: We don't have a list that ... happy with ... agreed on.
18:03:07 [dbaron]: fantasai: You sent me a list that was a slightly modified version of mine. We seem to be pretty close with the exception of naming one of the sections. Why can't we move to that?
18:03:20 [dbaron]: Bert: I haven't looked at your list wiwt hthat in mind
18:03:40 [dbaron]: fantasai: section on abandoned specs, location of cfss3-ui in list
18:03:47 [dbaron]: Bert: I think that list is fgine.
18:03:52 [dbaron]: glazou: This is part of the outreach of the wg
18:03:55 [Zakim]: -tantek
18:03:57 [dbaron]: glazou: We have to close that issue
18:04:05 [dbaron]: glazou: Bert, I want you to do that change as soon as possible.
18:04:18 [dbaron]: Bert: It will be done within the next week and a half.
18:04:28 [dbaron]: glazou: That's the best you can do?
18:04:37 [dbaron]: Bert: I have things to do tomorrow and the day after.
18:04:42 [dbaron]: Tab: Can one of us publish the page, then?
18:04:46 [dbaron]: Bert: I guess Elika can.
18:04:49 [dbaron]: glazou: Let's do that.
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18:05:07 [dbaron]: fantasai: I don't know the structural dependencies
18:05:13 [dbaron]: Bert: keep ids completed and high-prio
18:05:22 [dbaron]: ACTION fantasai update the current-work page
18:05:22 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-411 - Update the current-work page [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-12-14].
18:05:35 [Zakim]: -Oliver_Goldman
18:05:35 [Zakim]: -dbaron
18:05:36 [Zakim]: -antonp
18:05:36 [Zakim]: -tabatkins_
18:05:36 [Zakim]: -smfr
18:05:38 [Zakim]: -stearns
18:05:39 [Zakim]: -glazou
18:05:41 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
18:05:43 [Zakim]: -florianr
18:05:44 [dbaron]: s/cfss3/css3/
18:05:45 [Zakim]: -sylvaing
18:05:47 [Zakim]: -SteveZ
18:05:49 [Zakim]: -hober
18:05:49 [antonp]: antonp has left #css
18:05:51 [Zakim]: -plinss
18:05:53 [Zakim]: -kojiishi
18:05:55 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft.a]
18:05:57 [Zakim]: -glenn
18:05:59 [Zakim]: -bradk
18:06:01 [Zakim]: -Bert
18:06:03 [Zakim]: -??P70
18:06:36 [dbaron]: s/(minute later) pref C/Considering the possibility that we might later move to having column spans that don't cross all columns, I think it's much better to think of each column spanning element as isolated -- I'm scared of doing otherwise. Thus I prefer option C./
18:06:45 [dbaron]: s/is fgine/is fine/
18:06:48 [Zakim]: -howcome
18:06:52 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:06:55 [dbaron]: s/wiwt hthat/with that/
18:06:58 [Zakim]: Attendees were sleepy_jdaggett, SteveZ, glenn, antonp, glazou, +1.510.364.aaaa, rossen, +1.510.364.aabb, ericm, +1.619.846.aacc, hober, stearns, smfr, plinss, johnjan, sylvaing,
18:07:03 [Zakim]: ... Oliver_Goldman, tantek, bradk, Bert, dbaron, florianr, kojiishi, howcome, [Microsoft], tabatkins_
18:07:43 [dbaron]: s/R.c/Rec/
18:07:47 [dbaron]: s/implement.d/implemented/
18:08:09 [dbaron]: s/style :reduce/style: reduce/
18:08:19 [dbaron]: s/concerne about/concerns about/
18:08:52 [dbaron]: s/DLMA/DLNA/
18:09:47 [Rossen]: Zkim: [Microsoft] is Rossen
18:10:18 [dbaron]: boy, jdaggett stayed up until 3am for this...
18:10:33 [Rossen]: dedication!
18:11:05 [Rossen]: Zkim [Microsoft] is Rossen
18:12:41 [Rossen]: Zkim, [Microsoft] has Rossen
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18:14:36 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: Changes/feedback on flexbox for blog?
18:15:16 [fantasai]: Rossen: would help to spell it correctly, I think. You're missing an 'a' :)
18:15:33 [Rossen]: Zakim, [Microsoft] has Rossen
18:15:33 [Zakim]: sorry, Rossen, I do not recognize a party named '[Microsoft]'
18:17:06 [dbaron]: Rossen, I don't think it works after the call is over
18:17:51 [Rossen]: right, I'll have to add my cell number in the w3c list so I don't have to deal with this again... oh well
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21:23:24 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Hm?
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