IRC log of dnt on 2011-11-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:34:58 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #dnt
16:34:58 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/23-dnt-irc
16:35:05 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #dnt
16:35:12 [aleecia]: Zakim, this will be dnt
16:35:12 [Zakim]: ok, aleecia; I see T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM scheduled to start in 25 minutes
16:35:18 [aleecia]: chair is aleecia
16:35:35 [npdoty]: s/chair is/chair:/
16:35:59 [aleecia]: good morning, Nick. Thank you!
16:37:06 [npdoty]: rrsagent, make logs public
16:37:30 [aleecia]: Changing the call sheet will help, I'll try to remember to do that
16:38:47 [aleecia]: regrets+ Heather West, Jeffery Chester, Karl Dubost, Haakon Bratsberg
16:39:21 [aleecia]: agenda+ Select scribe
16:39:54 [aleecia]: agenda+ comments on minutes: http://www.w3.org/2011/11/16-dnt-minutes
16:40:17 [aleecia]: agenda+ action items: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/
16:40:31 [aleecia]: agenda+ Next f2f meeting, further details & planning status
16:40:41 [aleecia]: agenda+ Tracking Selection Lists, update on status
16:40:51 [aleecia]: agenda+ Coming soon: writing assignments for open issues
16:41:09 [aleecia]: agenda+ Issue-19: Data collection / Data use (3rd party)
16:41:20 [aleecia]: agenda+ Announce next meeting & adjourn
16:42:44 [aleecia]: I think I have scribe syntax wrong here too. Should be scribenick: <name>?
16:44:04 [johnsimpson]: johnsimpson has joined #dnt
16:50:37 [Zakim]: T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has now started
16:50:44 [Zakim]: +aleecia
16:50:55 [aleecia]: zakim, please mute me
16:50:55 [Zakim]: sorry, aleecia, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
16:52:34 [efelten]: efelten has joined #dnt
16:56:36 [aleecia]: zakim, who is on the call?
16:56:36 [Zakim]: On the phone I see aleecia
16:57:54 [joanne]: joanne has joined #DNT
16:58:22 [Zakim]: +efelten
16:58:47 [Zakim]: + +1.408.349.aaaa
16:58:54 [WileyS]: WileyS has joined #DNT
16:59:00 [Zakim]: + +49.431.98.aabb
16:59:09 [carmenb]: carmenb has joined #dnt
16:59:13 [NinjaMarnau]: NinjaMarnau has joined #dnt
16:59:21 [dsriedel]: dsriedel has joined #dnt
16:59:26 [aleecia]: zakim, aaaa is WileyS
16:59:26 [Zakim]: +WileyS; got it
16:59:40 [Zakim]: +johnsimpson
16:59:53 [aleecia]: zakim, aabb is NinjaMarnau
16:59:53 [Zakim]: +NinjaMarnau; got it
17:00:07 [aleecia]: zakim, who is on the call?
17:00:09 [Zakim]: On the phone I see aleecia, efelten, WileyS, NinjaMarnau, johnsimpson
17:00:22 [alex]: alex has joined #dnt
17:00:26 [johnsimpson]: zakim, mute me
17:00:26 [Zakim]: johnsimpson should now be muted
17:00:27 [justin]: justin has joined #dnt
17:00:33 [Zakim]: + +1.206.369.aacc
17:00:36 [Zakim]: + +1.207.619.aadd
17:00:38 [Zakim]: + +1.609.981.aaee
17:00:43 [Zakim]: + +1.202.629.aaff
17:00:44 [Zakim]: +npdoty
17:00:46 [aleecia]: scribenick is WileyS
17:00:47 [Zakim]: +dsriedel
17:00:58 [npdoty]: scribenick: WileyS
17:00:58 [tedleung]: tedleung has joined #dnt
17:01:00 [dsriedel]: zakim, mute me
17:01:00 [Zakim]: dsriedel should now be muted
17:01:01 [sidstamm]: sidstamm has joined #dnt
17:01:03 [Zakim]: + +1.212.631.aagg
17:01:04 [tl]: zakim aaee is tl
17:01:14 [Zakim]: + +1.916.641.aahh
17:01:14 [jkaran]: jkaran has joined #dnt
17:01:24 [WileyS]: Allecia: Good morning. Small number of participants - expect a shorter call today. Please identify your phone number with your IRC handle.
17:01:26 [npdoty]: Zakim, aaee is tl
17:01:26 [Zakim]: +tl; got it
17:01:26 [carmenb]: i'm 202.629
17:01:27 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
17:01:27 [Zakim]: +Justin
17:01:32 [npdoty]: Zakim, aadd is dwainberg
17:01:32 [Zakim]: +dwainberg; got it
17:01:32 [aleecia]: zakim aadd is davidW
17:01:34 [WileyS]: DavidW: Unable to join IRC
17:01:51 [npdoty]: Zakim, who's making noise?
17:01:51 [aleecia]: next agendum
17:01:58 [aleecia]: next agendum
17:01:59 [WileyS]: Aleecia: Please mute if you are not speaking (someone is obviously unable to hear this direction)
17:02:03 [Zakim]: npdoty, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: aleecia (47%), NinjaMarnau (22%), [IPcaller] (49%)
17:02:03 [efelten]: Zakim, aaff is carmenb
17:02:03 [Zakim]: +carmenb; got it
17:02:04 [tedleung]: Zakim 206.369.5622 is tedleung
17:02:06 [aleecia]: close agendum 1
17:02:08 [WileyS]: The quotes are from Shane :-)
17:02:17 [Zakim]: + +1.206.619.aaii
17:02:24 [Zakim]: + +1.917.349.aajj
17:02:27 [aleecia]: agenda?
17:02:44 [tl]: zakim, mute ipcaller
17:02:45 [WileyS]: Aleecia: Any comments on the notes from the last meeting?
17:02:49 [Zakim]: +alex
17:02:50 [joanne]: I'm 916.641
17:02:51 [Zakim]: + +1.949.573.aakk
17:02:51 [Zakim]: +[Mozilla]
17:02:52 [Zakim]: [IPcaller] should now be muted
17:02:55 [WileyS]: ... No comments - consider approved
17:02:57 [aleecia]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/open
17:03:03 [WileyS]: ... A couple of action items
17:03:04 [sidstamm]: Zakim, Mozilla has sidstamm
17:03:04 [Zakim]: +sidstamm; got it
17:03:10 [Zakim]: +Bjorn_Bringert,Satish_Sampath
17:03:12 [WileyS]: ... Carl could not make the call.
17:03:23 [efelten]: Zakim, aahh is joanne
17:03:23 [Zakim]: +joanne; got it
17:03:32 [Zakim]: + +1.805.418.aall
17:03:40 [tl]: s/Carl/Karl
17:03:43 [Frank]: Frank has joined #dnt
17:03:49 [vincent]: vincent has joined #dnt
17:04:10 [Lia]: Lia has joined #dnt
17:04:16 [alex]: Zakim, mute me
17:04:16 [Zakim]: alex should now be muted
17:04:31 [Zakim]: + +1.647.274.aamm
17:04:49 [WileyS]: Aleecia: Set for 2 weeks out (Action-31)
17:05:17 [WileyS]: Action 34: Jonathan and Tom have been working on this. Could either of you comment on how much longer needed?
17:05:17 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - 34
17:05:46 [WileyS]: Tom: Action-34 - Could have something ready by the end of this week
17:05:58 [WileyS]: Aleecia: Moving due date to Friday
17:06:00 [WileyS]: Tom: Okay
17:06:23 [jmayer]: jmayer has joined #dnt
17:06:25 [WileyS]: Aleecia: Next Action-36 (Issue-95 related)
17:06:26 [BrianTs]: BrianTs has joined #DNT
17:06:37 [Zakim]: + +1.773.929.aann
17:06:50 [jmayer]: Zakim, aann is jmayer
17:06:50 [Zakim]: +jmayer; got it
17:06:53 [andyzei]: andyzei has joined #dnt
17:07:18 [WileyS]: Shane: In draft to Tom
17:07:20 [npdoty]: WileyS: action 31 will need to be delayed as I'm out all next week and there are a few of us working on the technical portion (postponed 2 weeks)
17:07:24 [WileyS]: Tom: Will have this out soon
17:07:46 [WileyS]: Aleecia: Providing 2 more days for Action-36 (Issue-95)
17:07:51 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
17:07:53 [aleecia]: agenda?
17:08:04 [npdoty]: Zakim, close agendum 2
17:08:09 [WileyS]: Aleecia: Action items completed
17:08:10 [npdoty]: Zakim, close agendum 3
17:08:13 [BrianTs]: Zakim, [Microsoft] has BrianTs
17:08:17 [Zakim]: agendum 2, comments on minutes: http://www.w3.org/2011/11/16-dnt-minutes, closed
17:08:18 [WileyS]: ...Discussing next face-t0-face meeting
17:08:21 [Zakim]: +BrianTs; got it
17:08:23 [npdoty]: Zakim, take up agendum 4
17:08:26 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:08:30 [Zakim]: 3. action items: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/ [from aleecia]
17:08:35 [WileyS]: ...Half-day on Tuesday, continuing on Wednesday and Thursday
17:08:36 [Zakim]: agendum 3, action items: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/, closed
17:08:40 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:08:42 [Zakim]: 4. Next f2f meeting, further details & planning status [from aleecia]
17:08:42 [justin]: Yes, that!
17:08:43 [WileyS]: q+
17:08:44 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Next f2f meeting, further details & planning status" taken up [from aleecia]
17:08:47 [WileyS]: +q
17:09:01 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.a]
17:09:11 [WileyS]: ...Looking at moving to half-day on Monday and full days Tuesday and Wednesday
17:09:29 [JC]: JC has joined #DNT
17:09:35 [WileyS]: ...Excellent host lined up. Hotels - looking for a place near public transit in Belgium
17:09:55 [Zakim]: + +1.650.862.aaoo
17:10:08 [WileyS]: ...Expect to have meeting dates soon
17:10:21 [Zakim]: +??P44
17:10:28 [WileyS]: ...So everyone can setup airfare. For hotels, any hotel near the railline should be fine
17:10:49 [WileyS]: ...will try to provide several hotel options for different budget ranges
17:10:53 [eberkower]: eberkower has joined #dnt
17:11:07 [aleecia]: q?
17:11:11 [aleecia]: ack WileyS
17:11:22 [Zakim]: + +1.425.281.aapp
17:11:47 [Zakim]: + +1.646.654.aaqq
17:11:51 [WileyS]: Shane: If Monday is half-day we'll need to travel on Sunday
17:12:13 [WileyS]: Aleecia: Understood, we're look at that in trying to balance all of the groups needs - priority is to editor participation
17:12:16 [npdoty]: -> http://www.cpdpconferences.org/, the concurrent privacy conference in Brussels
17:12:37 [WileyS]: Aleecia: Competing local Privacy Conference the same week
17:13:12 [WileyS]: Aleecia: That's where we stand for now on the next f2f meeting
17:13:30 [WileyS]: ...Next Agenda Item: Traffic Protection Lists
17:13:40 [WileyS]: ...some of you may be suprised this back on the agenda
17:13:44 [ileana]: ileana has joined #dnt
17:14:06 [tlr]: tlr has joined #dnt
17:14:14 [npdoty]: I wouldn't say "most" but it's definitely prominently present in the charter
17:14:15 [WileyS]: ...history: initiated some of this discussion. No concensus here as of yet. Remains in limbo
17:14:28 [WileyS]: ...starting to work through issues on whether we're going to move forward on this or not.
17:15:18 [WileyS]: ...have 2 proposed editors who will be starting a strawman proposal outside of the W3C space (GetHub?)
17:15:28 [npdoty]: s/GetHub?/github/
17:15:29 [efelten]: s/GetHub/github/
17:16:08 [WileyS]: ...Github is a revision tracking tool - this is where they will start
17:16:17 [npdoty]: https://github.com/ hosting of a distributed version control system
17:16:32 [WileyS]: ...Two browser companies are going to move forward on this with or without the W3C
17:17:38 [aleecia]: q?
17:17:39 [npdoty]: "with or without the W3C" might be a little strong, just that editors from those companies have started drafting
17:18:07 [WileyS]: direct quote
17:19:02 [WileyS]: Aleecia: Spending quality time over Thanksgiving reviewing the mailing list to make sure strings are appropriately attributed to the correct Issue number
17:19:32 [npdoty]: Zakim, take up agendum 6
17:19:32 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "Coming soon: writing assignments for open issues" taken up [from aleecia]
17:19:49 [WileyS]: ...Will be asking people to take writting assignments for Open and non-assigned Issues
17:20:32 [WileyS]: ...Rough-cut, not expected to be perfect, complete in 2 weeks -- will then ask editors to take 2nd pass
17:20:59 [WileyS]: ...A couple issues that I believe need to be taken on by the group (such as site-specific exemption)
17:21:33 [WileyS]: ...start moving more quickly on items where we have sensible starting points immediately
17:21:44 [aleecia]: q?
17:22:08 [WileyS]: Aleecia: We will also have a template as a starting point
17:22:29 [WileyS]: ...overview, specifications language, examples
17:22:49 [WileyS]: ...With nothing futher on that, moving right along to Issue-19
17:22:51 [npdoty]: Zakim, take up agendum 7
17:22:51 [Zakim]: agendum 7. "Issue-19: Data collection / Data use (3rd party)" taken up [from aleecia]
17:22:59 [WileyS]: ...Around data collection and use by 3rd parties
17:23:11 [npdoty]: issue-19?
17:23:11 [trackbot]: ISSUE-19 -- Data collection / Data use (3rd party) -- raised
17:23:11 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/19
17:23:17 [WileyS]: ...Spoken a great deal about 3rd parties
17:23:24 [Zakim]: - +1.206.619.aaii
17:23:29 [jmayer]: +q
17:23:38 [WileyS]: ...How should a 3rd party respond to a DNT signal?
17:23:40 [tl]: q+
17:23:47 [aleecia]: ack jmayer
17:24:15 [aleecia]: s/3rd parties/1st parties
17:24:35 [aleecia]: ack tl
17:24:40 [WileyS]: JMayer: I think the sensible approach and has some buy-in around the table and start at 3rd parties can not collect or use anything and then back-into exceptions where collection/use is allowable
17:24:43 [WileyS]: +q
17:25:03 [johnsimpson]: +q
17:25:10 [WileyS]: Tom: Agrees with Jonathan. Starting with a "do nothing" and then starting adding back in.
17:25:15 [johnsimpson]: zakim, unmute me
17:25:15 [Zakim]: johnsimpson should no longer be muted
17:25:40 [aleecia]: ack WileyS
17:26:11 [tl]: q+
17:26:19 [justin]: How is that different from what jmayer said?
17:26:45 [npdoty]: also sounded like agreement to me
17:26:56 [NinjaMarnau]: q+
17:27:20 [npdoty]: WileyS: rather than taking everything off from the start, the definition should be don't do anything except for certain categories
17:27:38 [npdoty]: ... and then later describe specific exemptions for those categories in more detail
17:27:56 [rvaneijk]: rvaneijk has joined #dnt
17:28:05 [npdoty]: ... agree with jmayer and tl in some ways, just don't want it to start with "Don't collect full stop"
17:28:19 [WileyS]: Thank you Nick
17:28:26 [tl]: WileyS, i think we agree
17:28:34 [npdoty]: ... something like 'don't collect except for operational and security purposes' and then later detail those
17:28:39 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller.a]
17:28:46 [jmayer]: +q
17:29:04 [rvaneijk]: Zakim, +[IPcaller.a] is rvaneijk
17:29:04 [Zakim]: sorry, rvaneijk, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller.a]'
17:29:13 [NinjaMarnau]: I would suggest "must not" rather than "should not"
17:29:20 [Frank]: Concerned about a broad don't do anything, except
17:29:24 [npdoty]: Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is rvaneijk
17:29:24 [Zakim]: +rvaneijk; got it
17:29:31 [Frank]: Think there are broad categories of things that will be allowed
17:29:32 [tl]: we just quibble about how much work the initial drafter is meant to do
17:29:59 [Zakim]: - +1.805.418.aall
17:30:49 [aleecia]: q?
17:31:01 [aleecia]: ack johnsimpson
17:31:01 [WileyS]: Issue: We're not sure where the exceptions should be and ensure they are categorically captured in the base 3rd party prohibition statement.
17:31:06 [trackbot]: Created ISSUE-103 - We're not sure where the exceptions should be and ensure they are categorically captured in the base 3rd party prohibition statement. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/103/edit .
17:31:27 [WileyS]: JohnSimpson: There should be no 3rd party exceptions
17:31:49 [WileyS]: Aleecia: We can discuss this with each exceptions
17:32:10 [WileyS]: ...Suspect you will find some of these to be reasonable. If you don't support them be there to convey why you don't.
17:32:13 [NinjaMarnau]: q-
17:32:19 [WileyS]: JohnSimpson: He will do that.
17:32:33 [johnsimpson]: zakim, mute me
17:32:35 [Zakim]: johnsimpson should now be muted
17:32:53 [WileyS]: DavidW: Likes the approach that Shane and Aleecia have landed upon. What we're starting to do at this point we're defining "Tracking".
17:33:03 [aleecia]: q?
17:33:12 [WileyS]: ...Anxious to get to the specifics
17:33:25 [aleecia]: ack tl
17:33:27 [Jules]: Jules has joined #dnt
17:33:38 [WileyS]: Aleecia: We may agree to disagree in a few philosophical areas but looking forward to figuring this out
17:33:59 [Zakim]: + +1.650.308.aarr
17:34:06 [WileyS]: Tom: Largely agree with Shane and feels its more of an editorial task. Generally feels we're in agreement
17:34:06 [Zakim]: - +1.650.862.aaoo
17:34:09 [aleecia]: ack jmayer
17:34:26 [Zakim]: + +1.202.263.aass
17:34:56 [ksmith]: ksmith has joined #DNT
17:35:55 [WileyS]: jmayer: If what we're talking about is pulling exception list items then he's okay with it.
17:36:19 [efelten]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:36:19 [Zakim]: On the phone I see aleecia, efelten, WileyS, NinjaMarnau, johnsimpson (muted), +1.206.369.aacc, dwainberg, tl, carmenb, npdoty, dsriedel (muted), +1.212.631.aagg, joanne,
17:36:22 [Zakim]: ... [IPcaller] (muted), Justin, +1.917.349.aajj, alex (muted), +1.949.573.aakk, [Mozilla], Bjorn_Bringert,Satish_Sampath, +1.647.274.aamm, jmayer, [Microsoft], [Microsoft.a],
17:36:27 [Zakim]: ... ??P44, +1.425.281.aapp, +1.646.654.aaqq, rvaneijk, +1.650.308.aarr, +1.202.263.aass
17:36:29 [Zakim]: [Mozilla] has sidstamm
17:36:29 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] has BrianTs
17:36:32 [WileyS]: WIleyS: Not looking to pull a fast one and would position langauge such that categories are only referred to and the specifics must stand on their own in the detailed text.
17:36:36 [aleecia]: q?
17:36:49 [WileyS]: Aleecia: I think we have a good starting point on 3rd parties.
17:37:31 [WileyS]: ...I think a good starting point is to add this points to the Issue (forcable assigned to Shane)
17:37:55 [WileyS]: All yours Jonathan. :-)
17:38:35 [WileyS]: Aleecia: Thank you all for making the call. Happy to keep it short before Thanksgiving. Coming back to 1st parties on the next call - and trying to get that hammered out.
17:38:38 [Zakim]: - +1.202.263.aass
17:38:40 [Zakim]: -dwainberg
17:38:41 [Zakim]: - +1.917.349.aajj
17:38:42 [Zakim]: - +1.212.631.aagg
17:38:44 [Zakim]: -efelten
17:38:45 [Zakim]: -[Mozilla]
17:38:45 [npdoty]: Happy Thanksgiving!
17:38:46 [Zakim]: - +1.650.308.aarr
17:38:46 [Zakim]: -joanne
17:38:46 [Zakim]: -johnsimpson
17:38:47 [Zakim]: - +1.647.274.aamm
17:38:49 [Zakim]: - +1.206.369.aacc
17:38:50 [WileyS]: ...Will work on exemptions in the meantime via the mailing list
17:38:51 [Zakim]: -NinjaMarnau
17:38:53 [Zakim]: - +1.646.654.aaqq
17:38:53 [sidstamm]: thanks aleecia!
17:38:55 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
17:38:57 [Zakim]: -jmayer
17:38:57 [aleecia]: Thank you all for making the call
17:38:59 [Zakim]: - +1.425.281.aapp
17:39:01 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft.a]
17:39:02 [ksmith]: ksmith has left #DNT
17:39:03 [Zakim]: -Justin
17:39:05 [Zakim]: -carmenb
17:39:05 [johnsimpson]: thanks
17:39:07 [Zakim]: -Bjorn_Bringert,Satish_Sampath
17:39:09 [Zakim]: -alex
17:39:11 [Zakim]: -rvaneijk
17:39:11 [johnsimpson]: johnsimpson has left #dnt
17:39:14 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller]
17:39:15 [Zakim]: -npdoty
17:39:16 [jmayer]: ACTION: jmayer to Draft high-level text on third-party responsibilities by next Monday
17:39:16 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-38 - Draft high-level text on third-party responsibilities by next Monday [on Jonathan Mayer - due 2011-11-30].
17:39:22 [Zakim]: - +1.949.573.aakk
17:39:24 [Zakim]: -??P44
17:39:29 [dsriedel]: \quit
17:39:39 [npdoty]: trackbot, end meeting
17:39:39 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
17:39:39 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been aleecia, efelten, +1.408.349.aaaa, +49.431.98.aabb, WileyS, johnsimpson, NinjaMarnau, +1.206.369.aacc, +1.207.619.aadd, +1.609.981.aaee,
17:39:40 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:39:40 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/23-dnt-minutes.html trackbot
17:39:41 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
17:39:41 [RRSAgent]: I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/23-dnt-actions.rdf :
17:39:41 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: 34 to Jonathan and Tom have been working on this. Could either of you comment on how much longer needed? [1]
17:39:41 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/23-dnt-irc#T17-05-17
17:39:41 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: jmayer to Draft high-level text on third-party responsibilities by next Monday [2]
17:39:41 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/23-dnt-irc#T17-39-16
17:39:42 [Zakim]: ... +1.202.629.aaff, npdoty, dsriedel, +1.212.631.aagg, +1.916.641.aahh, tl, [IPcaller], Justin, dwainberg, carmenb, +1.206.619.aaii, +1.917.349.aajj, alex, +1.949.573.aakk,
17:39:46 [Zakim]: ... sidstamm, Bjorn_Bringert,Satish_Sampath, joanne, +1.805.418.aall, +1.647.274.aamm, +1.773.929.aann, jmayer, BrianTs, [Microsoft], +1.650.862.aaoo, +1.425.281.aapp,
17:39:48 [Zakim]: ... +1.646.654.aaqq, rvaneijk, +1.650.308.aarr, +1.202.263.aass
17:39:50 [aleecia]: thanks, Nick!