17:19:13 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:19:13 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-irc 17:19:15 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:19:15 Zakim has joined #ua 17:19:17 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 17:19:17 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 41 minutes 17:19:18 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 17:19:18 Date: 10 November 2011 17:20:16 chair: JimAllan, KellyFord 17:20:27 regrets+ JanR 17:43:20 regrets+ MarkH 17:43:28 Agenda+ TPAC Recap 17:43:30 Agenda+ Review Proposal on 1.7 Style Profiles - http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/UAAG/1.7.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0047.html 17:43:31 Agenda+ Review outstanding work from TPAC review, SC needing attention and such with goal to assign owners for SC needing work. 17:43:33 Agenda+ Review any proposals sent to list 17:43:34 Agenda+ - Final yes/no voting for SC in section 2 not completed at TPAC 17:58:50 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:58:57 +Jeanne 17:59:19 sharper has joined #ua 17:59:26 Greg has joined #ua 17:59:48 +Jim_Allan 18:00:30 +[Microsoft] 18:01:13 zakim, code? 18:01:13 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sharper 18:02:14 +??P0 18:02:21 zakim, ??P0 is sharper 18:02:21 +sharper; got it 18:03:11 scribe: jallan 18:03:18 +Kim_Patch 18:04:04 kford has joined #ua 18:04:12 http://test.tsbvi.edu/generated.htm 18:04:22 +Greg_Lowney 18:05:05 zakim, agenda? 18:05:05 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 18:05:07 1. TPAC Recap [from JAllan] 18:05:09 2. Review Proposal on 1.7 Style Profiles - http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/UAAG/1.7.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0047.html [from JAllan] 18:05:12 3. Review outstanding work from TPAC review, SC needing attention and such with goal to assign owners for SC needing work. [from JAllan] 18:05:14 4. Review any proposals sent to list [from JAllan] 18:05:16 5. - Final yes/no voting for SC in section 2 not completed at TPAC [from JAllan] 18:05:30 zakim, [Microsoft] is really kford 18:05:30 +kford; got it 18:07:19 KimPatch has joined #ua 18:08:50 zakim, take up item 1 18:08:50 agendum 1. "TPAC Recap" taken up [from JAllan] 18:10:04 kf: appreciate those in person, and Simon for calling in. 18:10:25 ... lots of work. good sense of where we are, where going. 18:11:30 ... publishing moratorium winter holidays 18:11:44 zakim, close item 1 18:11:44 agendum 1, TPAC Recap, closed 18:11:46 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:11:48 2. Review Proposal on 1.7 Style Profiles - http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/UAAG/1.7.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0047.html [from JAllan] 18:11:51 zakim, take up item 2 18:11:51 agendum 2. "Review Proposal on 1.7 Style Profiles - http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/UAAG/1.7.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0047.html" taken up [from 18:11:55 ... JAllan] 18:13:14 gl: not changes much. changed wording from style sheet to style profiles 18:13:27 kf: is something missing? 18:13:49 gl: current ones are same as wayne's. as they are they are pretty good 18:14:57 ja: thought we discussed these at the f2f 18:17:22 js: reason we are not using 'stylesheets' 18:17:46 kf: technology specific. trying to make agnostic. 18:17:59 I lean towards the phrase "style sheets and equivalent". 18:18:03 gl: like using terms reader understands 18:18:12 -Jeanne 18:18:34 ja: +1 to gl 18:20:06 kp: neutral on wording 18:21:04 kf: editorially, do we need to use 'or equivalent' 18:21:52 kp: style profile is awkward, but must use style sheets and equivalent" every time for folks will get confused 18:21:55 +Jeanne 18:22:27 ... if only stylesheets people will narrowly define in their head 18:23:07 js: if not using 'stylesheets' suggest 'presentation profiles' to abstract further 18:23:43 jeanne has joined #ua 18:23:59 zakim, agenda? 18:23:59 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 18:24:01 2. Review Proposal on 1.7 Style Profiles - http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/UAAG/1.7.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0047.html [from JAllan] 18:24:05 3. Review outstanding work from TPAC review, SC needing attention and such with goal to assign owners for SC needing work. [from JAllan] 18:24:08 4. Review any proposals sent to list [from JAllan] 18:24:10 5. - Final yes/no voting for SC in section 2 not completed at TPAC [from JAllan] 18:24:35 kp: leaning more toward 'style profiles', wording is better in context. helps people think wider 18:25:17 kf: are there other styles 18:25:41 kp: nice to define a vocabulary. will need define 'style profile' 18:28:29 It looks like Wayne's changes amount to (a) adding 1.7.0, (b) replacing term "style sheet" with "style profile", and (c) in 1.7.1 changing "turn off" to "turn on or off" and "every author style sheet defined" to "every author profile". 18:28:32 kf: put in document as is, in status changes for new Working Draft - ask for feedback. There may be other ways to do this let us know. Include definition of 'style profile' 18:29:04 kp: Dragon switched to using profile, and it made more sense to users 18:29:47 kf: have intents for all of these except the new 1.7.0, Jeanne can you put in document 18:30:07 action: jeanne to add Wayne Dick's proposal for 1.7 to the document 18:30:08 Created ACTION-657 - Add Wayne Dick's proposal for 1.7 to the document [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-11-17]. 18:31:34 action: jallan to add column about IER presence on the uaag-total table 18:31:34 Created ACTION-658 - Add column about IER presence on the uaag-total table [on Jim Allan - due 2011-11-17]. 18:32:08 gl: should we add glossary terms proposed by wayne to glossary. 18:32:42 ... seems convoluted to add 4 additional paragraphs to support a 1 line def. of 'style profile' 18:33:33 ... should be able to come up with a shorter definition that does not require the other support info. 18:33:49 I think we can define "style sheet" or "style profile" such that we don't need to introduce and define two new terms ("style rule" and "style grouping"), which I think just confuse the reader and the document. 18:34:35 Action: kford to send mail to Wayne asking him to revise and simplify glossary definitions. 18:34:35 Created ACTION-659 - Send mail to Wayne asking him to revise and simplify glossary definitions. [on Kelly Ford - due 2011-11-17]. 18:34:51 zakim, close item 2 18:34:51 agendum 2, Review Proposal on 1.7 Style Profiles - http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/UAAG/1.7.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0047.html, closed 18:34:54 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:34:56 3. Review outstanding work from TPAC review, SC needing attention and such with goal to assign owners for SC needing work. [from JAllan] 18:35:02 zakim, take up item 3 18:35:02 agendum 3. "Review outstanding work from TPAC review, SC needing attention and such with goal to assign owners for SC needing work." taken up [from JAllan] 18:36:13 test.tsbvi.edu/uaag-total.htm 18:36:27 mhakkinen has joined #ua 18:37:46 * irc only 18:38:54 kf: how to address the 'no' items 18:40:34 kf: everybody look through action items and close those that should be closed. 18:42:34 kf: team will assign 'no' items to appropriate folks 18:43:10 ja: there are 22 items with no associated action items 18:43:18 zakim, close item 3 18:43:18 agendum 3, Review outstanding work from TPAC review, SC needing attention and such with goal to assign owners for SC needing work., closed 18:43:20 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:43:21 4. Review any proposals sent to list [from JAllan] 18:43:53 zakim, take up item 4 18:43:53 agendum 4. "Review any proposals sent to list" taken up [from JAllan] 18:46:05 close action-591 18:46:05 ACTION-591 Create table with comments and group responses. closed 18:46:49 Scribe: kford 18:47:07 JA: Talking about action 650 and looking at CSS generated contnet not appearing in the DOM. 18:47:17 JA: I couldn't find this in the DOM. 18:47:40 JA: Correction I couldn't find this in the HTML5 spec. 18:48:11 JA: I don't know if we need this as a SC to ensure it doens't go away. 18:48:30 'GLP: Do we need a generic SC that generated content is one example. 18:49:57 GL: Do we want something that says everything presented to the user must be available programatically. 18:50:21 GL: Do we then want something that talks about ensuring this is done in an easy fashion e.g. DOM and accessibility API? 18:53:02 action: jallan review css spec for generated text in the dom, and propose adding information to the a11y api 18:53:02 Created ACTION-660 - Review css spec for generated text in the dom, and propose adding information to the a11y api [on Jim Allan - due 2011-11-17]. 18:53:26 close action action-650 18:53:37 close action-650 18:53:50 close action-650 18:53:50 ACTION-650 Review generated css content in html5 closed 18:54:26 Action-630 18:54:28 1.8x Maintain Point of Regard:: 18:54:30 JA: My other action was 630 around point of regard. 18:54:30 When user changes viewport size or scales the content, maintain the current point of regard. 18:54:32 Intent: Keep as much of the current content in the viewport when the viewport changes size or the user scales content/ It can be disorienting and confusing when a user changes the viewports size and the current content shifts out of the viewport and different content on the same page is displayed. Pint the top-left corner (or top-right corner for RTL languages) to the viewport regardless of... 18:54:33 ...viewport size or scale. If an element has focus in the viewport keep the focused element in the viewport after resizing or scaling. 18:55:24 s/Pint/Point 18:55:28 GL: I think this is not using the point of regard correctly. 18:56:15 JA: The intent reflects what I think needs to happen. 18:56:39 I think this is misusing the term "point of regard". Per the definition, "point of regard" is the thing the user is presumed to be looking at, so it's not really up to the user agent to "maintain it", but rather to keep it within the visible portion of the viewport. 18:57:50 JA: Some people might get confused and say it is the center that is the point of regard. 18:58:07 JA: I think the most consistent is the top left corner. 18:59:07 Action: kford to send proposed assignments for SC needing attention to list based on Jim's spreadsheet. 18:59:08 Created ACTION-661 - Send proposed assignments for SC needing attention to list based on Jim's spreadsheet. [on Kelly Ford - due 2011-11-17]. 18:59:42 GL and JA talking further about exactly what is meant here. 19:03:40 kelly and jim discussing orientation examples 19:07:30 kf: 2 examples, 1-keeping top left corner pinned, 2 - keep the focused element in the same relative position in the revised viewport 19:11:21 keep the focused element in the same relative position in the revised content in the viewport 19:11:34 Perhaps "The point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport when the viewport is resized or the view within the viewport is scaled." (Too many uses of "viewport", though.) 19:11:44 gl: why in the intent and not the SC 19:11:59 ja: didn't want make the SC too prescriptive 19:12:40 kp: would like to strongly suggest UA does one of the two solutions. they are good cognitively. 19:13:23 ... would be better for all UA to do the same way. 19:13:47 js: is something is focused it should have priority 19:14:01 KP: Liking the staying geographically oriented solution. 19:14:27 I consider the point of regard to be the text cursor location, or the active end of the selection, or the focus element, or highlighted search results, or the leading edge of the viewport (bottom edge when scrolling down, or top edge when scrolling up), *whichever changed most recently*. 19:16:11 The point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport when the viewport is resized or is scaled. 19:17:11 When user changes viewport size or scales the content the point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport 19:17:51 When user changes viewport size or scales content the point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport. 19:18:24 GL: 1. I can resize. 2. I can change the zoom ratio. 3. What happens when I'm showing text and change the font of some of the text. 19:18:38 ja: resize = changing window size, scale=change size of contnet 19:18:42 GL: Do I need to resize to continue to show the cursor? 19:18:52 s/contnet/content 19:19:13 If "scale" means change the zoom ratio, then "resizing the content" might mean changing font size, etc. 19:19:37 When user changes viewport or content size the point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport 19:20:51 "When the user changes the viewport's size or scaling, or the size of its content,..."? 19:21:22 When user changes viewport, content, or font size the point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport 19:23:53 Group continues to talk about definitions of what actions should be covered here. 19:23:56 When user changes viewport, content, or rendering size the point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport 19:24:43 When the user changes viewport, content, or rendering size the point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport 19:25:50 GL: Does this need to be optional? 19:26:11 group says yes, user should be able to override. 19:26:19 When the user changes viewport, content, or rendering size the point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport, by default 19:26:48 By default, when the user changes viewport, content, or rendering size the point of regard remains at the same relative location within the visible portion of the viewport. 19:27:21 GL: Did we decide this doesn't cover changes that the user did n't cause? 19:27:44 action: jallan to resubmit revised 1.8.x from action-630 19:27:45 Created ACTION-662 - Resubmit revised 1.8.x from action-630 [on Jim Allan - due 2011-11-17]. 19:31:48 -Kim_Patch 19:31:53 -sharper 19:32:05 -Greg_Lowney 19:32:13 no meeting in 2 weeks - US thanksgiving 19:32:27 rrsagent, make minutes 19:32:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-minutes.html JAllan 19:32:51 rrsagent, set logs public 19:33:20 rrsagent, please part 19:33:20 I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-actions.rdf : 19:33:20 ACTION: jeanne to add Wayne Dick's proposal for 1.7 to the document [1] 19:33:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-irc#T18-30-07 19:33:20 ACTION: jallan to add column about IER presence on the uaag-total table [2] 19:33:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-irc#T18-31-34 19:33:20 ACTION: kford to send mail to Wayne asking him to revise and simplify glossary definitions. [3] 19:33:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-irc#T18-34-35 19:33:20 ACTION: jallan review css spec for generated text in the dom, and propose adding information to the a11y api [4] 19:33:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-irc#T18-53-02 19:33:20 ACTION: kford to send proposed assignments for SC needing attention to list based on Jim's spreadsheet. [5] 19:33:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-irc#T18-59-07 19:33:20 ACTION: jallan to resubmit revised 1.8.x from action-630 [6] 19:33:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/10-ua-irc#T19-27-44