IRC log of rdf-wg on 2011-11-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:55:05 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:55:05 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/09-rdf-wg-irc
15:55:07 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
15:55:07 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
15:55:09 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 73394
15:55:09 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
15:55:10 [trackbot]: Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:55:10 [trackbot]: Date: 09 November 2011
15:56:35 [Zakim]: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:56:36 [swh]: swh has joined #rdf-wg
15:56:36 [Zakim]: + +1.707.318.aaaa
15:57:38 [pchampin]: pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:50 [MacTed]: I can't make today's call, but hoped I could throw a few words in quickly about graph (and other) identification...
15:58:51 [MacTed]: URIs may well be defined as "global in scope" as Pat frequently states -- but people just don't use names or any other identifier consistently in any space, and I am convinced that RDF/WWW/GGG/BBQ will be no different.
15:58:51 [MacTed]: Most people may agree that <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Tomato> denotes the red fruit (as the /page/ currently states) -- but plenty of authors will say that it may be a generic term for a woman of the 1920s (see <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tomato>).
15:58:51 [MacTed]: Graphs (Gsnaps, Gboxes, Gtexts, etc.) are no different than anything else. People have used and use do and will use URIs incorrectly.
15:58:52 [Zakim]: +??P4
15:58:54 [MacTed]: We have to accept and work with that, or nothing we do will be worth the doing except within the rarified world of logic.
15:58:54 [Zakim]: -??P4
15:58:54 [Zakim]: +??P4
15:58:57 [MacTed]: "Local context" is a fact of life, and RDF having originally been defined *within an isolated context* should not prevent its evolving to recognize that fact.
15:58:59 [swh]: Zakim, ??P4 is me
15:58:59 [Zakim]: +swh; got it
15:59:09 [ivan]: zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:59:09 [Zakim]: ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:59:10 [Zakim]: +Ivan
15:59:19 [Zakim]: + +1.540.898.aabb
15:59:19 [MacTed]: and with that bombshell.... :-)
15:59:49 [davidwood]: Zakim, +aabb is me
15:59:49 [Zakim]: sorry, davidwood, I do not recognize a party named '+aabb'
15:59:56 [davidwood]: Zakim, 11bb is me
15:59:57 [Zakim]: sorry, davidwood, I do not recognize a party named '11bb'
16:00:06 [davidwood]: *curses new keyboard
16:00:17 [davidwood]: Zakim, aabb is me
16:00:17 [Zakim]: +davidwood; got it
16:00:21 [Zakim]: + +1.781.899.aacc
16:01:01 [davidwood]: We need a scribe for today
16:01:05 [davidwood]: Please volunteer
16:01:27 [cygri_]: cygri_ has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:28 [Zakim]: + +1.415.309.aadd
16:01:32 [yvesr]: yvesr has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:37 [JeremyCarroll]: Zakim, aadd is me
16:01:37 [Zakim]: +JeremyCarroll; got it
16:01:43 [Scott_Bauer]: Scott_Bauer has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:47 [JeremyCarroll]: Zakim, mute me
16:01:47 [Zakim]: JeremyCarroll should now be muted
16:02:01 [zwu2]: zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:01 [Zakim]: +??P15
16:02:07 [zwu2]: zakim, code?
16:02:09 [Zakim]: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
16:02:15 [Zakim]: + +3539149aaee
16:02:20 [mischat]: zakim ??P15 is me
16:02:22 [cygri_]: zakim, aaee is me
16:02:22 [Zakim]: +cygri_; got it
16:02:29 [mischat]: zakim, ??15 is me
16:02:29 [Zakim]: sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '??15'
16:02:34 [cgreer2]: zakim aaaa is me
16:02:41 [Zakim]: + +1.650.265.aaff
16:02:45 [cgreer2]: zakim, aaaa is me
16:02:45 [Zakim]: +cgreer2; got it
16:02:47 [mischat]: zakim, ??P15 is me
16:02:47 [Zakim]: +mischat; got it
16:02:56 [davidwood]: Zakim, aaaa is cgreer2
16:02:56 [Zakim]: sorry, davidwood, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
16:02:57 [zwu2]: zakim, aaff is me
16:02:58 [Zakim]: +zwu2; got it
16:03:22 [Zakim]: +Tony
16:03:32 [Scott_Bauer]: Zakim, Tony is me
16:03:32 [Zakim]: +Peter_Patel-Schneider
16:03:32 [Zakim]: +Scott_Bauer; got it
16:04:02 [Zakim]: + +1.603.897.aagg
16:04:10 [davidwood]: Zakim, pick a scribe
16:04:10 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose mischat
16:04:14 [Zakim]: +??P24
16:04:16 [davidwood]: Zakim, pick a scribe
16:04:16 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose cygri_
16:04:31 [cygri]: scribe: cygri
16:04:58 [cygri]: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.11.09
16:05:06 [cygri]: chair: David Wood
16:05:11 [yvesr]: Zakim, ??P24 is me
16:05:11 [Zakim]: +yvesr; got it
16:05:13 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:05:24 [cygri]: topic: Admin
16:05:25 [AndyS]: zakim, IPCaller is me
16:05:25 [Zakim]: +AndyS; got it
16:05:34 [cygri]: davidwood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 2 Nov telecon
16:05:36 [mischat]: zakim, who is making noise ?
16:05:39 [cygri]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-11-02
16:05:46 [Zakim]: mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (91%)
16:05:49 [cygri]: RESOLUTION: accept the minutes of the 2 Nov telecon
16:06:01 [cygri]: topic: Action item review
16:06:02 [davidwood]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
16:06:13 [cygri]: davidwood: lots of open actions, and none pending review
16:06:24 [cygri]: ... do we have danbri today? apparently not
16:07:37 [cygri]: ACTION-94?
16:07:37 [trackbot]: ACTION-94 -- Richard Cyganiak to update http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs (but hopes others will help) -- due 2011-10-12 -- OPEN
16:07:37 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/94
16:08:06 [AZ]: AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:08:15 [Zakim]: +??P27
16:08:26 [cygri]: cygri: no progress on my actions
16:08:43 [cygri]: ... not sure about ACTION-94, i don't think i can do a great job on that, too many discussions have happend
16:09:00 [Zakim]: + +1.707.861.aahh
16:09:12 [gavinc]: gavinc has joined #rdf-wg
16:09:21 [gavinc]: ... what might I pick up?
16:09:21 [Zakim]: + +1.617.324.aaii
16:09:38 [davidwood]: gavinc: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/94
16:09:53 [cygri]: davidwood: cygri, can you mail the list to ask for new volunteer?
16:10:35 [cygri]: ... goal is to update the page, comment on which proposals went nowhere, which technical issues are open etc ... best-effort
16:10:55 [cygri]: gavinc: i can do that
16:11:10 [Souri]: Souri has joined #rdf-wg
16:11:32 [cygri]: davidwood: i'll take care of some of the editorial actions
16:11:37 [gavinc]: ACTION-94?
16:11:37 [trackbot]: ACTION-94 -- Gavin Carothers to update http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs (but hopes others will help) -- due 2011-10-12 -- OPEN
16:11:37 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/94
16:11:51 [cygri]: ACTION-106?
16:11:51 [trackbot]: ACTION-106 -- Gavin Carothers to add link from Turtle datatypes section to recommended list in concepts -- due 2011-11-09 -- OPEN
16:11:51 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/106
16:12:21 [cygri]: ACTION-105?
16:12:21 [trackbot]: ACTION-105 -- Richard Cyganiak to contact pat and peter and make sure they are ok with putting list of XSD types into RDF Concepts -- due 2011-10-20 -- OPEN
16:12:21 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/105
16:12:45 [cygri]: gavinc: i might do ACTION-105 too
16:13:05 [cygri]: q+
16:13:22 [mischat]: the dateTime duration isn't in RDFie stuff
16:13:23 [JeremyCarroll]: q+
16:13:58 [JeremyCarroll]: zakim, unmute me
16:13:58 [Zakim]: JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
16:14:04 [ericP]: q+ to ask if we want to encourage canonical forms of XSD datatypes
16:14:39 [cygri]: jeremycarroll: did we do anything about xsd duration?
16:14:50 [cygri]: ... one group improved the duration types
16:15:00 [cygri]: ... the type used to be unusable
16:15:18 [cygri]: ... the problems with it were fixed somewhere. don't remember where
16:15:33 [sandro]: I see http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/ is currently in CR (for 4 months so far).
16:15:42 [cygri]: ACTION: JeremyCarroll to check status of duration datatypes
16:15:43 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-117 - Check status of duration datatypes [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2011-11-16].
16:15:54 [Zakim]: +??P31
16:16:01 [JeremyCarroll]: zakim, mute me
16:16:01 [Zakim]: JeremyCarroll should now be muted
16:16:03 [ericP]: this is different from owl time which, iirc, atomized the components of the time?
16:16:06 [AndyS]: Several technical XML ones - qname, NOTATION, token
16:16:07 [cygri]: pfps: i updated the action to include something on owl
16:16:08 [cygri]: q-
16:16:12 [cygri]: ack JeremyCarroll
16:16:34 [davidwood]: ack ericP
16:16:34 [Zakim]: ericP, you wanted to ask if we want to encourage canonical forms of XSD datatypes
16:16:40 [sandro]: +1
16:16:43 [cygri]: ericP: do we want to encourage canonical forms of xsd types
16:16:47 [Zakim]: + +33.4.77.42.aajj
16:16:47 [JeremyCarroll]: q+
16:16:54 [cygri]: davidwood: i like that
16:17:00 [JeremyCarroll]: ack
16:17:06 [davidwood]: ack JeremyCarroll
16:17:09 [AZ]: Zakim, +33.4.77.42.aajj is me
16:17:09 [Zakim]: +AZ; got it
16:17:34 [AndyS]: q+
16:17:39 [cygri]: JeremyCarroll: the canonical form for decimal and int are different
16:18:01 [cygri]: ... getting the canonical stuff right is hard
16:18:31 [cygri]: davidwood: there were lots of email messages on 1 vs 1.0
16:18:54 [cygri]: ericP: and yet it seems to be desirable
16:18:57 [gavinc]: I think XSD 2 does a good job of listing the canonical form of all them now?
16:19:09 [AndyS]: This is fixed now.
16:19:13 [cygri]: davidwood: we could ignore this completely, or do only the simple ones, or do all
16:19:14 [swh]: yes
16:19:19 [AndyS]: q?
16:20:05 [davidwood]: ack AndyS
16:20:18 [cygri]: JeremyCarroll: every solution will make someone unhappy. perhaps better to do nothing
16:20:31 [mischat]: wishes there was a better solution than http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/gregorian-interval/2010-07-19T00:00:00/P0Y0M0DT0H30M
16:20:35 [cygri]: ACTION: JeremyCarroll to summarize issues relating to XSD canonicalization
16:20:35 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-118 - Summarize issues relating to XSD canonicalization [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2011-11-16].
16:20:52 [AndyS]: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-1/
16:20:56 [cygri]: AndyS: canonical form for integer changes in XSD 1.1
16:21:04 [cygri]: ... integer is now "1", no longer "1.0"
16:21:15 [cygri]: davidwood: this might make it tractable for us
16:21:31 [cygri]: AndyS: owl has normative dependency on XSD 1.1
16:21:45 [cygri]: davidwood: so we almost have an obligation to handle this too
16:21:55 [cygri]: AndyS: depends … is this may, should, must?
16:22:05 [JeremyCarroll]: zakim, mute me
16:22:05 [Zakim]: JeremyCarroll should now be muted
16:22:09 [cygri]: davidwood: charter says we should align RDF with other recommendations and best practices
16:22:16 [cygri]: ... seems this is worthy of our time
16:22:26 [cygri]: AndyS: it's good to put in some text to encourage it
16:22:44 [cygri]: davidwood: i'd be happy with a should
16:23:43 [cygri]: davidwood: anybody willing to take an action on summarizing the work that would need to be done?
16:23:47 [JeremyCarroll]: zakim, unmute me
16:23:47 [Zakim]: JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
16:24:19 [cygri]: ... i think that touches semantics too
16:24:22 [cygri]: pfps: why?
16:24:35 [cygri]: JeremyCarroll: as andy said, the value is what matters
16:24:46 [cygri]: ... one school of thought: we don't care how you write down the value
16:25:13 [cygri]: ... other school of thought: the value is what you write
16:25:21 [ericP]: but RDF has little more logic can graph equivalence so the lexical form is critical
16:25:28 [cygri]: ... unlikely that there's consensus
16:25:34 [ericP]: q+ to talk about SPARQL
16:25:45 [mischat]: fwiw, as it stands, RDF Semantic states that xsd:duration shouldn't be used : http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#DTYPEINTERP
16:25:48 [cygri]: davidwood: what does SPARQL say about this?
16:25:59 [Zakim]: +??P34
16:25:59 [JeremyCarroll]: zakim, mute me
16:26:00 [Zakim]: JeremyCarroll should now be muted
16:26:11 [cygri]: ericP: there's a difference between RDF graph equivalence and xpath equivalence
16:26:14 [yvesr]: Zakim, ??P34 is me
16:26:14 [Zakim]: +yvesr; got it
16:26:24 [AndyS]: q+ to update Eric's answer for SPARQL 1.1 :-)
16:26:30 [JeremyCarroll]: machat, yes duration is broken ... iw was well known when xsd 1.0 came out
16:26:38 [davidwood]: ack ericP
16:26:38 [Zakim]: ericP, you wanted to talk about SPARQL
16:26:40 [JeremyCarroll]: they were out of time
16:26:42 [davidwood]: ack AndyS
16:26:42 [Zakim]: AndyS, you wanted to update Eric's answer for SPARQL 1.1 :-)
16:26:53 [cygri]: AndyS: SPARQL 1.1 has D-entailment which gives value-based processing
16:27:04 [cygri]: ericP: but that's not regular sparql processing?
16:27:15 [cygri]: AndyS: it's not in the lowest form of processing
16:27:29 [cygri]: davidwood: you can get around all of that with filters?
16:27:39 [cygri]: AndyS: yes, not all engines do it
16:28:36 [cygri]: topic: Named Graphs
16:28:46 [davidwood]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Nov/0025.html
16:30:04 [cygri]: pfps: i thought named graphs should show up in rdf concepts without changing semantics
16:30:13 [cygri]: ... now we talk about changing semantics
16:30:23 [cygri]: ... i disagree with a lot of that, and the rest i don't understand
16:30:37 [danbri]: we're talking about this proposal, right? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Nov/0019.html
16:30:39 [cygri]: davidwood: do you disagree with andy's position on this?
16:31:11 [gavinc]: Zakim, mute me
16:31:11 [Zakim]: sorry, gavinc, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:31:19 [gavinc]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:31:19 [Zakim]: On the phone I see cgreer2, swh, Ivan, davidwood, +1.781.899.aacc, JeremyCarroll (muted), mischat, cygri_, zwu2, Scott_Bauer, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +1.603.897.aagg, yvesr, AndyS,
16:31:22 [Zakim]: ... danbri, +1.707.861.aahh, +1.617.324.aaii, ??P31, AZ, yvesr.a
16:31:29 [gavinc]: Zakim, aahh is me
16:31:29 [Zakim]: +gavinc; got it
16:31:33 [gavinc]: Zakim, mute me
16:31:33 [Zakim]: gavinc should now be muted
16:31:52 [cygri]: pfps: i'm worried about the idea that named graphs has to do with the current state of the semantic web
16:32:10 [danbri]: I tried to write up the dilbert scenario http://danbri.org/words/2011/11/03/753 just so it's documented as a scenario (without assuming any particular approach)
16:32:12 [JeremyCarroll]: q+ to stromgly disagree with peter :)
16:32:13 [pfps]: I worry very much about anything that puts the current state of the Web into RDF Semantics.
16:32:39 [JeremyCarroll]: zakim, unmute me
16:32:39 [Zakim]: JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
16:32:47 [davidwood]: ack JeremyCarroll
16:32:47 [Zakim]: JeremyCarroll, you wanted to stromgly disagree with peter :)
16:33:08 [cygri]: JeremyCarroll: W3C is a web consortium. the state of the web is fundamentally interesting
16:33:52 [cygri]: q+
16:34:02 [pfps]: q+
16:34:04 [JeremyCarroll]: zakim, mute me
16:34:04 [Zakim]: JeremyCarroll should now be muted
16:34:18 [danbri]: (I don't see 'current state of the Web' in pat's proposal; maybe I read too fast)
16:34:31 [cygri]: q-
16:34:31 [cygri]: q+
16:35:26 [JeremyCarroll]: me thinks there is a transatlantic misunderstanding about domestic incidents
16:36:29 [davidwood]: q?
16:36:49 [cygri]: AndyS: in that message i tried to capture the notion that there's a two-stop process in going from trig file to graph. name goes to something, something goes to graph
16:37:02 [cygri]: ... the named graphs paper says the relation is "denote"
16:37:23 [cygri]: ... n3 says it's the owl:sameAs relation
16:37:37 [cygri]: ... but other things are possible. "it's where i downloaded it from"
16:37:57 [gavinc]: Zakim, who is talking
16:37:57 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'who is talking', gavinc
16:37:58 [cygri]: ... that's what ppl often do because it's convenient, even though it's a time-varying relationship
16:38:00 [gavinc]: Zakim, who is talking?
16:38:12 [Zakim]: gavinc, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (81%), danbri (17%)
16:38:14 [cygri]: ... Sandro talked about writing down good practice
16:38:37 [cygri]: ... the good practice would be to fix the second step to "denote"
16:38:54 [danbri]: yes - good to write down best practice; not clear what best practice actually *is*
16:39:04 [pfps]: q-
16:39:07 [davidwood]: ack pfps
16:39:14 [davidwood]: ack cygri
16:39:19 [Zakim]: +??P1
16:39:21 [swh]: +1 to danbri
16:40:13 [AndyS]: Agree there is > 1 "good practice"
16:40:57 [AndyS]: ... maybe, "patterns", or "ways to use the machinery"
16:42:03 [AZ]: +1 cygri
16:42:13 [davidwood]: q?
16:42:27 [cygri]: cygri: i think we can handle "state of the web" without going into semantics
16:43:05 [cygri]: ... awww, REST etc already handle "state of the web" well, and it might be less dangerous to leave the relationship of that to the RDF data model a bit fuzzy
16:43:13 [sandro]: zakim, who is making noise?
16:43:17 [zwu2]: too much noise
16:43:19 [Zakim]: - +1.617.324.aaii
16:43:26 [Zakim]: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (16%), cygri_ (5%), Peter_Patel-Schneider (9%)
16:43:52 [mischat]: zakim, mute me
16:43:52 [Zakim]: mischat should now be muted
16:44:06 [cygri]: zakim, cygri_ is me
16:44:06 [Zakim]: +cygri; got it
16:45:03 [Zakim]: + +1.617.324.aakk
16:45:13 [ericP]: Zakim, aakk is me
16:45:13 [Zakim]: +ericP; got it
16:45:40 [sandro]: q?
16:45:43 [sandro]: q+
16:45:48 [cygri]: AndyS: i wasn't trying to propose a conceptual model, but find a more concrete way of talking about the machinery
16:46:19 [cygri]: ... i prefer the view that there's a loose association between uri and graph
16:46:34 [JeremyCarroll]: q+ to suggest using dilbert cube move use case
16:46:36 [cygri]: ... with perhaps a way of making it more explicit
16:46:52 [sandro]: q-
16:47:13 [cygri]: davidwood: i asked kendall clark what a named graph is in stardog
16:47:32 [cygri]: ... he said, a possibly empty partition of a database
16:47:43 [cygri]: ... that's how many stores treat it
16:47:50 [sandro]: "A named graph is a possibly empty partition of an RDF database" -- that's the concept within the RDF database community.
16:48:00 [cygri]: ... there's shared conceptual understanding in the rdf database community, but not outside of that community
16:48:37 [JeremyCarroll]: zakim, unmute me
16:48:37 [Zakim]: JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
16:48:43 [cygri]: AndyS: in databases, the fact that it's a partition is a secondary issue
16:48:51 [cygri]: ... the question is, why is it partitioned?
16:48:59 [cygri]: JeremyCarroll: i'm unhappy with kendall's phrasing
16:49:31 [cygri]: ... when we talk about the web, a named graph is almost like a cached set of triples
16:49:49 [cygri]: ... [summarizes webarch]
16:50:33 [cygri]: AndyS: your model is a commonly used one ... how does it fit the notion in the named graph paper?
16:51:50 [davidwood]: JeremyCarroll, that sounds like Plato's Theory of Forms in that an RDF Graph is only ever abstract and its current home has no particular bearing.
16:52:36 [cygri]: JeremyCarroll: a set of named graphs is a cache of the web as defined by web architecture specs
16:53:13 [gavinc]: +1 RDF wayback machine
16:53:23 [davidwood]: I think JeremyCarroll said that a set of named graphs is a cache of *representations*
16:53:38 [davidwood]: Is that so?
16:53:43 [cygri]: ... a graph name is a url. webarch already says what's the value of the corresponding graph. it's a solved problem.
16:54:29 [cygri]: AndyS: you could write down in your data what purpose you're using the 4th slot for
16:54:37 [cygri]: q+
16:54:43 [JeremyCarroll]: ack
16:54:47 [JeremyCarroll]: q-
16:54:54 [davidwood]: ack cygri
16:55:44 [JeremyCarroll]: zakim, mute me
16:55:44 [Zakim]: JeremyCarroll should now be muted
16:55:51 [davidwood]: q?
16:56:14 [ericP]: i don't agree that the RDB world does a better job with catalog, etc.
16:56:27 [davidwood]: ericP, agreed
16:56:31 [JeremyCarroll]: q+ to respond to richard overloading
16:56:34 [ericP]: i think that stuff is more about namespace scoping
16:56:55 [cygri]: cygri: the fourth element is used for many different things ... once you try using it for one thing, you preclude other uses
16:57:15 [ericP]: that i agree with completely
16:57:23 [cygri]: AndyS: RDB world is simpler because they don't try to cache the web
16:57:45 [JeremyCarroll]: zakim, unmute me
16:57:45 [Zakim]: JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
16:58:04 [davidwood]: ack JeremyCarroll
16:58:04 [Zakim]: JeremyCarroll, you wanted to respond to richard overloading
16:58:07 [cygri]: davidwood: in an RDB you have lots of out-of-band context. in RDF when you share stuff on the web you have to make that context explicit
16:58:26 [cygri]: JeremyCarroll: agree that the 4th slot is overloaded
16:58:48 [cygri]: ... but the answer is: if you want to have something better, model it better
16:59:12 [cygri]: ... 4th element is a simple generic mechanism
16:59:30 [cygri]: ... and there's a toolkit for building something more complicated when you need it
16:59:33 [cygri]: q+
16:59:44 [JeremyCarroll]: zakim, mute me
16:59:44 [Zakim]: JeremyCarroll should now be muted
17:00:04 [davidwood]: ack cygri
17:00:20 [gavinc]: ... why are we trying to do that?
17:00:23 [ericP]: cygri: we are trying this 4th element from the "cheap and cheerful" into something much more specific
17:00:57 [ericP]: ... we're trying to say explicitly how that 4th col works and tie it to web semantics
17:01:04 [gavinc]: IRI ;)
17:01:07 [Zakim]: -mischat
17:01:09 [ericP]: ... i would be happy to keep it "cheep and cheerful"
17:01:23 [yvesr]: s/cheep/cheap
17:01:25 [cygri]: davidwood: 4th element is an IRI. people can say what it means.
17:01:52 [cygri]: AndyS: i agree, but there's a caveat. there's also the relation between IRI and graph
17:01:57 [Zakim]: +??P46
17:02:02 [cygri]: davidwood: yes
17:02:10 [mischat]: zakim, ??P46 is me
17:02:14 [Zakim]: +mischat; got it
17:02:18 [mischat]: zakim, mute me
17:02:38 [Zakim]: mischat should now be muted
17:02:39 [ericP]: q+ to ask if this goes at all beyond what SPARQL had laid out
17:02:49 [davidwood]: ack ericP
17:02:52 [AndyS]: q?
17:02:53 [davidwood]: q?
17:03:08 [Zakim]: ericP, you wanted to ask if this goes at all beyond what SPARQL had laid out
17:03:15 [cygri]: ericP: in SPARQL i have a name for a graph and some stuff inside
17:03:16 [cygri]: ... i can make assertions about that graph
17:03:20 [yvesr]: davidwood, you can't explicitly represent the relation between the IRI and the graph now (having an IRI for the graph is not enough, i guess)
17:03:45 [cygri]: ... that's all there is in sparql at the moment
17:03:56 [davidwood]: yvesr, right, we still would need to create a relation.
17:04:00 [Zakim]: -gavinc
17:04:16 [davidwood]: …but we avoid having a single meaning for the 4th slot
17:04:26 [cygri]: AndyS: in SPARQL it's always a loose relation except in FROM NAMED where it's the web architeture relation
17:04:42 [yvesr]: davidwood, yes
17:04:43 [cygri]: ericP: allow bnodes in the 4th place?
17:04:57 [cygri]: ... tricky because of scope
17:04:58 [JeremyCarroll]: no bnodes in 4th place!!
17:05:04 [gavinc]: No.
17:05:07 [davidwood]: +1 JeremyCarroll
17:05:10 [Souri]: No
17:05:13 [pchampin]: but nevertheless, SPARQL suggests that someone can write <graph-iri> dc:creator "pchampin" .
17:05:13 [AZ]: literals in the 4th place?
17:05:19 [zwu2]: +1 Jeremy
17:05:36 [pchampin]: ... which seems to imply that <graph-iri> is *naming* the graph
17:06:08 [cygri]: AndyS: the case needs to be made for anything besides IRI in that slot
17:06:08 [Souri]: no bNodes in 4th place please
17:06:10 [ericP]: i'm happy with the "4th col is an IRI" constraint
17:06:20 [ivan]: +1 to Sandro
17:07:30 [cygri]: sandro: i want to see some examples of what i can do with the datasets proposal
17:07:57 [cygri]: AndyS: there were two examples already
17:08:19 [gavinc]: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html#sec-graph-statements ;)
17:08:58 [cygri]: sandro: i'm looking for a trig document and a clear notion of what is entailed by it
17:10:01 [ericP]: 2011-11-09T17:04:00Z <Zakim> -gavinc
17:10:23 [cygri]: ACTION: AndyS to create a short example for a TriG document and a clear notion of what is entailed by it
17:10:23 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-119 - Create a short example for a TriG document and a clear notion of what is entailed by it [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-11-16].
17:10:46 [davidwood]: q?
17:10:48 [JeremyCarroll]: zakim, unmute me
17:10:48 [Zakim]: JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
17:10:59 [zwu2]: byte, have to go to another meeting.
17:11:01 [gavinc]: Sorry, wife needed the phone line for health insurance :\
17:11:09 [Zakim]: -zwu2
17:11:12 [Zakim]: +[OpenLink]
17:11:31 [MacTed]: Zakim, [OpenLink] is OpenLink_Software
17:11:31 [Zakim]: +OpenLink_Software; got it
17:11:34 [MacTed]: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
17:11:34 [Zakim]: +MacTed; got it
17:11:37 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute me
17:11:37 [Zakim]: MacTed should now be muted
17:11:39 [cygri]: JeremyCarroll: once you have an example i'll comment on it regarding correspondance with web architecture
17:11:42 [JeremyCarroll]: zakim, mute me
17:11:42 [Zakim]: JeremyCarroll should now be muted
17:11:44 [cygri]: topic: URI aliases for RDF terms
17:11:50 [ivan]: q+
17:11:52 [davidwood]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Nov/0006.html
17:11:54 [cygri]: davidwood: should we just make an issue for this?
17:12:02 [davidwood]: ack ivan
17:12:21 [cygri]: ivan: reaction on the list convinced me that this would be difficult
17:12:43 [cygri]: q+
17:12:55 [davidwood]: ack cygri
17:13:04 [Zakim]: -yvesr.a
17:13:43 [Zakim]: -Scott_Bauer
17:15:19 [cygri]: cygri: RDF/RDFS/OWL URIs are too long and unwieldy. if that ship has really already sailed, then it's sailing into a dead end
17:15:23 [ericP]: i see these alternatives: nothing syntactic abbreviations for common terms (à la turtle/SPARQL's "a" for rdf:type) hideously complex web of owl:sameAs assertions
17:15:33 [cygri]: davidwood: let's keep discussing it on the list
17:15:43 [Zakim]: -Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:15:48 [pchampin]: bye
17:15:49 [AndyS]: bye all
17:15:49 [Zakim]: -AZ
17:15:49 [cygri]: ... adjourned
17:15:50 [ericP]: i see these alternatives: 1 do nothing.. 2 syntactic abbreviations for common terms (à la turtle/SPARQL's "a" for rdf:type).. 3 hideously complex web of owl:sameAs assertions
17:15:50 [Zakim]: -Ivan
17:15:50 [Zakim]: - +1.781.899.aacc
17:15:51 [Zakim]: -JeremyCarroll
17:15:51 [Zakim]: -davidwood
17:15:53 [Zakim]: -swh
17:15:53 [Zakim]: - +1.603.897.aagg
17:15:55 [Zakim]: -danbri
17:15:57 [Zakim]: -cygri
17:15:58 [Zakim]: -MacTed
17:16:02 [Zakim]: -ericP
17:16:03 [Zakim]: -pchampin
17:16:04 [Zakim]: -mischat
17:16:09 [Zakim]: -AndyS
17:16:18 [cygri]: RRSAgent, make minutes public
17:16:18 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', cygri. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:16:27 [cygri]: RRSAgent, make logs public
17:16:31 [Zakim]: -cgreer2
17:24:47 [AndyS]: AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
17:52:03 [cygri]: zakim, who is on the phone?
17:52:03 [Zakim]: On the phone I see yvesr, ??P31
17:54:13 [cygri]: zakim, bye
17:54:13 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.707.318.aaaa, swh, Ivan, +1.540.898.aabb, davidwood, +1.781.899.aacc, +1.415.309.aadd, JeremyCarroll, +3539149aaee,
17:54:13 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #rdf-wg
17:54:16 [Zakim]: ... +1.650.265.aaff, cgreer2, mischat, zwu2, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Scott_Bauer, +1.603.897.aagg, yvesr, AndyS, danbri, +1.707.861.aahh, +1.617.324.aaii, AZ, gavinc, pchampin,
17:54:18 [Zakim]: ... cygri, +1.617.324.aakk, ericP, MacTed
19:22:38 [MacTed]: MacTed has joined #rdf-wg
20:11:55 [cygri]: ACTION: Pat to modify RDF Semantics appropriately to hard-code the class extension of rdf:langString to the set of all pairs of strings and language tags
20:11:55 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-120 - Modify RDF Semantics appropriately to hard-code the class extension of rdf:langString to the set of all pairs of strings and language tags [on Patrick Hayes - due 2011-11-16].
20:12:26 [cygri]: ACTION-120?
20:12:26 [trackbot]: ACTION-120 -- Patrick Hayes to modify RDF Semantics appropriately to hard-code the class extension of rdf:langString to the set of all pairs of strings and language tags -- due 2011-11-16 -- OPEN
20:12:26 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/120
20:28:05 [cygri]: ACTION: Danbri to move all content of RDF Concepts section 4, and merge it into RDF Schema section 1 as appropriate (or create a new section?)
20:28:06 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-121 - Move all content of RDF Concepts section 4, and merge it into RDF Schema section 1 as appropriate (or create a new section?) [on Dan Brickley - due 2011-11-16].
20:28:09 [cygri]: ACTION-121?
20:28:09 [trackbot]: ACTION-121 -- Dan Brickley to move all content of RDF Concepts section 4, and merge it into RDF Schema section 1 as appropriate (or create a new section?) -- due 2011-11-16 -- OPEN
20:28:09 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/121
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