IRC log of ua on 2011-11-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:54:26 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-ua-irc
15:54:28 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:54:28 [Zakim]
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15:54:30 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
15:54:30 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG(TPAC)11:30AM scheduled to start 24 minutes ago
15:54:31 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:54:31 [trackbot]
Date: 03 November 2011
15:54:36 [sharper]
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15:54:46 [jeanne]
Meeting: UAWG F2F Day 1
15:54:56 [jeanne]
Chair: Jim, Kelly
15:55:14 [Jan]
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15:55:47 [jeanne]
zakim, call Sierra
15:55:47 [Zakim]
ok, jeanne; the call is being made
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WAI_UAWG(TPAC)11:30AM has now started
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+Sierra
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-Sierra
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WAI_UAWG(TPAC)11:30AM has ended
15:56:43 [Zakim]
Attendees were Sierra
15:56:54 [jeanne]
zakim, call Sierra
15:56:54 [Zakim]
ok, jeanne; the call is being made
15:56:55 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG(TPAC)11:30AM has now started
15:56:56 [Zakim]
+Sierra
15:58:12 [Zakim]
-Sierra
15:58:13 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG(TPAC)11:30AM has ended
15:58:13 [Zakim]
Attendees were Sierra
15:58:41 [jeanne]
zakim, call Sierra
15:58:41 [Zakim]
ok, jeanne; the call is being made
15:58:42 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG(TPAC)11:30AM has now started
15:58:43 [Zakim]
+Sierra
16:00:17 [Jan]
Editors drafts prior to meeting: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0029.html
16:00:17 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20111020/
16:00:20 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20111020/
16:00:37 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-ua-minutes.html kford
16:02:51 [jallan]
scribe: jallan
16:03:33 [jallan]
Meeting: UAWG TPAC Face to Face Meeting - Day 1
16:03:47 [jallan]
Chair: KellyFord, JimAllan
16:04:59 [jallan]
Attendees: GregL, KimP, JanR, MarkH, JeanneS, JimA, KellyF
16:05:42 [jallan]
Agenda: Thursday 9 -9:15 logistics 9:15-10:30 writing 10:30-10:45 break 10:45 - 11:15 review 11:15 - 12:00 open issues 12-1 lunch 1-2:15 writing 2:15 - 2:30 break 2:30 - 3 review 3:00 - 4:15 writing 4:15-5:00 review
16:06:33 [jallan]
Topic: Discussion of A, AA, and AAA
16:06:57 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-ATAG20-20111028/#intro_understand_levels_conformance
16:08:13 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/conformance.html#uc-levels-head
16:08:28 [jallan]
gl: questions for deciding priorities
16:11:22 [jeanne]
Greg's email on Designing Software Accessibility Standards -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009AprJun/0107.html
16:11:24 [jallan]
visitors joined - CliffT (E&O), WayneD
16:13:02 [jallan]
js: reviews history of levels in WCAG.
16:13:17 [jallan]
... they are not defined in WCAG or ATAG on purpose.
16:13:24 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG(TPAC)11:30AM has ended
16:13:25 [Zakim]
Attendees were Sierra
16:15:15 [Admin]
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16:21:21 [jallan]
Greg reviews his email on Designing Software A11y Standards
16:21:35 [jallan]
kf: we will use a lot of this in our thinking.
16:22:11 [jallan]
jr: we could put this in the understanding conformance section ... it is informative
16:24:03 [jallan]
action: Jan to work with Greg to craft the understanding conformance in the Implementing document.
16:24:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-635 - Work with Greg to craft the understanding conformance in the Implementing document. [on Jan Richards - due 2011-11-10].
16:24:21 [jallan]
topic: Walk through the document
16:26:40 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20111020/
16:27:15 [jallan]
use this version http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20111103/
16:27:16 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20111103/
16:29:15 [jallan]
jr: render means presenting to user
16:29:24 [jallan]
... alt, captions
16:29:31 [jallan]
1.1.1 needs work
16:30:40 [jallan]
jr: the handle is wrong
16:31:16 [Admin]
Admin has joined #ua
16:31:34 [jallan]
1.1.2 needs work -
16:32:00 [jallan]
stem not good, browse and render what?
16:32:02 [Jan]
JR: Handle is wrong...text doesn't mention browse
16:32:38 [greg]
1.1.2 should we somewhere address the ability to have the alternative content presented to you without replacing the default verison, e.g. display title or alt text in pop-up or tooltip?
16:32:43 [jallan]
1.1.3 OK!
16:33:29 [greg]
1.1.2 JR pointed out its title doesn't really match the SC text.
16:34:22 [jallan]
1.1.4 (change stem to Rendering Alternative Cascade Order)
16:34:56 [greg]
1.1.1 and/or 1.1.4 should we address option to have alt content supplement rather than replace the primary content.
16:35:13 [greg]
and/or 1.1.2
16:35:51 [jallan]
jr: @@reword 1.1.2 to include render simultaneously or make a new SC @@
16:36:16 [jallan]
1.2.1 OK
16:37:13 [jallan]
small discussion on level. Kelly AA others A
16:38:51 [jallan]
visitor - John from RIM
16:40:46 [jallan]
discussion of 1.2.2 what alt="" means.
16:41:14 [jallan]
gl: this should be off by default. should be in the intention.
16:41:19 [jallan]
kf: should be AAA
16:42:56 [jallan]
jr: @@there are use cases beyond alt, captions, build captions from voice track,@@
16:42:59 [clifftyllick]
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16:43:02 [jallan]
1.2.2 OK move to AAA
16:43:26 [jallan]
1.2.3 repair missing associations
16:43:47 [jallan]
jr: very broad, tough to evaluate
16:43:55 [jallan]
kf: kick out of uaag
16:44:30 [JohnS]
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16:44:31 [jallan]
gl: not specific enough, what does repair mean
16:45:37 [jallan]
kf: not practical,
16:45:55 [jallan]
jr: talks about ATAG, range of examples.
16:46:40 [jallan]
...planting seeds for best practices
16:47:45 [jallan]
cliff: this sounds like what people curse about MSWord, predicting what you want to do. or what it thinks you mean
16:48:12 [jallan]
@@in next wd - 1.2.3 what do folks think of this@@
16:48:19 [jallan]
1.2.4 broken alternative content
16:50:41 [jallan]
1.2.4 @@needs more discussion. how to test. perhaps move to gl1.1@@
16:51:13 [jallan]
1.3.1 highlighting items
16:53:44 [jallan]
1.3.1 @@review, too many options, should say "these could include". should remove f. presence of alternative content @@
16:53:50 [Jan_]
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16:54:10 [jallan]
1.3.2 highlighting options
16:54:11 [mhakkine]
Something to think about re 1.2.4 future discussion: is "broken" the best term? Why not just "unrenderable"?
16:56:17 [jallan]
gl: need to change the use case in 1.3.2
16:56:46 [jallan]
@@editorial - order of 1.3.1 - 3
16:57:15 [greg]
specifically as JR suggested, the "active keyboard focus" highlighting is a potentially confusing case.
16:57:19 [jallan]
mh: what about audiory highlighting....iphone example.
16:57:34 [jallan]
kf: not for this version of uaag.
16:58:13 [jallan]
mh: or does screen reader provide the audiory highlighting.
16:59:12 [jallan]
@@1.3.2 review, reword, add auditory(?)
16:59:40 [jallan]
1.3.3 highlighting input controls
17:00:11 [jallan]
contradicts 1.3.1 about abled/disabled items
17:00:56 [jallan]
gl: 1.3.3 is very useful.
17:01:54 [jallan]
@@1.3.3. review.
17:02:11 [jallan]
1.4.1 configure text
17:02:17 [jallan]
jr: add character and line spacing
17:02:41 [jallan]
kf: change stem to 'configure rendered text'
17:03:54 [jallan]
add d) line spacing and e) letter spacing
17:04:11 [jallan]
@@need examples
17:04:43 [jallan]
1.4.1 OK!
17:04:59 [jallan]
1.4.2 preserving size destinctions
17:05:14 [jallan]
1.4.2 OK!
17:05:47 [jallan]
1.5 volume configuration
17:05:59 [jallan]
kf: seems jarring
17:06:13 [jallan]
js: perhaps reorder
17:06:31 [jallan]
mh: it is the size of the audio
17:06:46 [jallan]
1.5.1 global volume
17:07:53 [jallan]
kf and jr: make 'however....' a note
17:08:12 [jallan]
kp; remove 'however...
17:08:17 [jallan]
wouldn't change anything.
17:10:39 [jallan]
cliff: perhaps make an if/then...make it easier to read
17:11:32 [jallan]
if the global setting is mute, then the user may overide...
17:12:26 [jallan]
example-you set an alarm, and you have muted the system, but the alarm comes through
17:13:33 [jeanne]
1.5.1 Global Volume:
17:13:33 [jeanne]
The user can independently adjust the volume of all audio tracks, relative to the global volume level set through operating environment mechanisms. If the global setting is mute, the user agent may override a global mute on explicit user request that cautions the user about the implication. (Level A)
17:13:33 [jeanne]
\
17:14:41 [jallan]
1.5.1 @@ no -- possible rewroding -- The user can independently adjust the volume of all audio tracks, relative to the global volume level set through operating environment mechanisms. If the global setting is mute, the user agent may override a global mute on explicit user request that cautions the user about the implication. (Level A)
17:15:15 [jallan]
1.6.1 OK -- needs A & B
17:17:10 [jallan]
1.6.2 speech pitch and range
17:17:39 [jallan]
mh: what about picking by voice name (perfect paul, etc)
17:17:55 [jallan]
gl: voice profiles, male female
17:18:02 [clifftyllick]
Suggestion: Split 1.5.1 into 1.5.1 and 1.5.2. In 1.5.1, deal with reducing volume relative to the global level. In 1.5.2, deal with increasing volume relative to the global level. Ping me later if interested and I will draft such wording.
17:18:29 [jallan]
kf: add c) voice where supported
17:18:43 [jallan]
jr: is this a new sc?
17:19:14 [jallan]
... some technologies, these are sampled.
17:19:14 [jallan]
... perhaps AA
17:19:34 [jallan]
... if synthesizer supports voices, then ...
17:20:10 [jallan]
gl: change 1.6.1 to rate, volume and voice
17:21:16 [jallan]
1.6.1 @@ add c) voice (when more than one is available)
17:22:36 [greg]
Change 1.6.1 title to "Speech Rate, Volume, and Voice".
17:22:41 [jallan]
wayne: voices are speech fonts
17:24:02 [greg]
We reworded 1.6.2 to match 1.6.1
17:24:13 [jallan]
1.6.2 OK
17:24:44 [jallan]
1.6.3 Advance speech characteristics
17:25:17 [jallan]
kf: wording is off
17:25:27 [jallan]
1.6.4 OK
17:25:28 [greg]
1.6.3 changes to "The user can ADJUST..."
17:26:01 [jallan]
1.6.3 is OK
17:45:12 [jallan]
1.7.1 author style sheets
17:45:30 [jallan]
jr: css is a technique. requirement should be around typography
17:46:15 [jallan]
kp: for example author style sheets.
17:46:34 [jallan]
js: css is an html technology
17:47:01 [jallan]
jr; user can override the author provided typography with their own.
17:47:14 [jallan]
kf: combining 2 actions to 1 SC
17:47:45 [Jan]
JR: Maybe all of 1.7 is one SC about ability to control typography
17:47:46 [jallan]
... turn off AND choose if they are applied
17:48:12 [jallan]
... is Level A turn off, then prompt for the others.
17:48:30 [jallan]
jr: in 1.4.1 we talk about configuring text.
17:48:48 [jallan]
... lots of other stuff you can do with style sheets
17:50:12 [jallan]
ja; 1.4.1 is simple interface for fonts, etc.
17:50:51 [jallan]
gl: make 2 SC from 1.7.1
17:51:50 [jallan]
... make a new SC, to use CSS for different purposes. use print css for on screen, use onscreen for printing.
17:52:39 [jallan]
gl: not just talking about typography, chunks of information, moving things about.
17:53:12 [jallan]
kf: like 1.7.3
17:53:24 [jallan]
gl: Jan, do we want to genericize this.
17:54:14 [greg]
That is, a style sheet is an example of "styling presets"; groups of settings that are designed to work together. Per Jan's comment we might genericize this to "style sheets and equivalents".
17:55:22 [jallan]
1.7.all @@ wayne to clean up
17:56:29 [greg]
Either in SC or Intent should make explicit that user choice of style sheets should override author-prescribed limitations such as device-type specifiers (e.g. the user should be able to use a print style sheet on the screen and a screen style sheet on a printer).
17:57:43 [jallan]
1.8.1 highlight viewport
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17:58:14 [jallan]
jr: this is covered int 1.3.1
17:59:11 [greg]
That is, 1.8.1 is equivalent but not identical to 1.3.1.d.
17:59:25 [jallan]
jr: this is a duplication (mostly) of 1.3.1
17:59:52 [jeanne]
zakim, call Sierra
17:59:52 [Zakim]
ok, jeanne; the call is being made
17:59:53 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG(TPAC)11:30AM has now started
17:59:54 [sharper]
zakim, code?
17:59:54 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82943 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sharper
17:59:56 [Zakim]
+Sierra
18:00:14 [Zakim]
+??P2
18:00:20 [jallan]
discussion of merging and location of 1.8.1.and 1.3.1
18:00:29 [Zakim]
-??P2
18:00:50 [Zakim]
+??P2
18:01:02 [Zakim]
-??P2
18:01:24 [Zakim]
-Sierra
18:01:26 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG(TPAC)11:30AM has ended
18:01:26 [Zakim]
Attendees were Sierra
18:01:58 [jallan]
kf: remove 1.3.1 d and leave 1.8.1 as is...jr agree
18:02:26 [jallan]
wayne: when thinking about highlighting, then viewports are something to think about
18:02:44 [jallan]
jr: add note to 1.3.1 see 1.8.1 for viewports
18:04:35 [jallan]
jr: remove c, d from 1.3.1
18:05:11 [jallan]
kp: add note to see 1.8.1 for viewport info
18:06:25 [greg]
The window item from 1.3.1 can be moved into 1.8, which would be renamed to "Help users use and orient within windows and viewports".
18:06:44 [greg]
Because windows are just a subclass of viewports.
18:08:12 [JohnS]
Scribe:johnS
18:08:34 [JohnS]
Section 1.8
18:08:57 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20111103/
18:09:20 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20111103/
18:09:26 [JohnS]
Kelly: 1.8.1 is a yes
18:09:42 [JohnS]
Greg: on Mono device colour is ignored
18:09:58 [JohnS]
Kelly: if not possible it is not expected.
18:10:18 [JohnS]
1.8.1 is good
18:10:37 [JohnS]
Greg: highlight viewport
18:10:48 [JohnS]
...implies only inner most viewport
18:11:17 [JohnS]
... window inside is a tab, inside tab is a frame, inside fram is a input field.
18:11:28 [JohnS]
Jan: the whole chain should be captured
18:11:52 [JohnS]
Kelly: I think the requirement includes the whole chain
18:11:58 [JohnS]
Kelly: moving on 1.8.2
18:12:15 [JohnS]
...any objections?
18:12:27 [JohnS]
...no objections
18:12:41 [JohnS]
1.8.3 resizable
18:12:43 [greg]
(It seems that in 1.8.1 "THE viewport" and "(incuding nested" seem contradictory, mixing singular and plural, but it's probably acceptable.)
18:13:13 [JohnS]
Kim: Change to resizable viewport
18:13:24 [JohnS]
Kelly: why graphical?
18:13:34 [JohnS]
Jim: can't if is auditory
18:13:41 [JohnS]
Jan: we can remove graphical
18:14:12 [Ralph]
Ralph has joined #ua
18:14:34 [JohnS]
1.9.4
18:14:37 [JohnS]
corection
18:14:40 [JohnS]
1.8.4
18:14:44 [JohnS]
Scrollbard
18:14:50 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG(TPAC)11:30AM has now started
18:14:57 [Zakim]
+tpac
18:15:28 [greg]
1.8.4 Scrollbars has problems. It requires them in all cases, not allowing them to b optional. Scrollbars are one example mechanism for showing the user where they are and/or allowing them to scroll.
18:15:32 [JohnS]
Jan: if the rendered content extends beyond the rendered dimentions then the scrollbar is provided
18:16:13 [JohnS]
Greg: problems: 1. requires scrollbar in all cases, 2. scrollbar is one mechanism to show that content extend beyond but not the only mechanism that
18:16:16 [JohnS]
shows this
18:16:26 [JohnS]
Jan: can we call them scroll indicator?
18:16:41 [JohnS]
Greg: this is a complicated one, so we need to move on
18:16:53 [JohnS]
Greg: I'll take an action on this and have a discussion on scroll bar
18:17:11 [JohnS]
Wayne and Mark will be involved to discuss scroll bar with Greg
18:17:19 [JohnS]
Jan
18:17:34 [Ralph]
Ralph has left #ua
18:17:42 [JohnS]
1.8.5 Viewport history
18:18:02 [JohnS]
Kelly: I have a problem with this being Level A
18:18:03 [jallan]
action: Greg to rewrite 1.8.4 scrollbars, and Mark and Jan
18:18:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-636 - Rewrite 1.8.4 scrollbars, and Mark and Jan [on Greg Lowney - due 2011-11-10].
18:18:11 [JohnS]
Kim: Why?
18:18:33 [JohnS]
Kelly: The concept is great, but if I have selected a block of text and navigate away, do I have to come back with the block of text selected?
18:19:02 [JohnS]
Greg: the user agent must have the ability to restore the state
18:19:29 [JohnS]
Kelly: if I'm on a webpage and select some text, and navigate away, it doesn't come back.
18:19:42 [JohnS]
Greg: it scroll to the right place but doesn't restore selection
18:19:53 [JohnS]
Kim: firefox on a PC restrones it
18:20:01 [JohnS]
Jim: a broser can't do this in a web application
18:20:03 [Zakim]
+??P11
18:20:13 [JohnS]
...web application will break this
18:20:21 [JohnS]
Kelly: the back on HTML5 is meant to do this.
18:20:49 [JohnS]
Kelly: yes or no?
18:20:54 [JohnS]
I can' go with yes but I think it's wrong
18:21:03 [JohnS]
Greg: you would like us to qualify it to say when content is static
18:21:04 [sharper]
zakim, ??P11 is sharper
18:21:04 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:21:12 [JohnS]
would not apply to dynamic content
18:21:20 [JohnS]
Kelly: what is I select a header and it isn't there when I get back.
18:21:34 [sharper]
- how long would the history stay for?
18:21:39 [sharper]
between sessions?
18:21:59 [JohnS]
Kim: I wouldn't mind if the selction went away if I came back as long as I knew the content changed
18:22:14 [JohnS]
action: Jan craft 1.8.5
18:22:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-637 - Craft 1.8.5 [on Jan Richards - due 2011-11-10].
18:22:39 [sharper]
Are we taking a note of the thinks we JUNK so we don't revisit these?
18:22:50 [sharper]
s/thinks/things
18:22:53 [JohnS]
1.8.6 open on request
18:23:12 [JohnS]
Jim, when writting this tab was just coming into use
18:23:17 [JohnS]
Kelly: most htings do this
18:23:17 [Jan]
Action: JR to write a top-level conformance condition re: exception for dynamic content
18:23:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-638 - Write a top-level conformance condition re: exception for dynamic content [on Jan Richards - due 2011-11-10].
18:23:27 [JohnS]
Kelly: any objection?
18:23:49 [JohnS]
Greg: one question, so then web browser, the user says no, and the web browser wants to put up a dialogue box
18:23:58 [JohnS]
this prevents a dialog box from poping up?
18:24:13 [JohnS]
Kelly: no, this says confirmation
18:24:19 [JohnS]
Greg: well this would require a confirmation before popping up a dialogue box
18:24:33 [JohnS]
Jan: this talks about author content not chrome
18:24:48 [JohnS]
Kelly: Top level viewport rendering author content
18:25:24 [JohnS]
Greg: if the script call something to display a message box,
18:25:30 [JohnS]
Jan: it is not a top level viewport
18:25:35 [JohnS]
Greg: a mesage box is not?
18:25:52 [JohnS]
Jan: are you talking about a dialogue box? becuase that means a top level window
18:26:24 [JohnS]
Greg: not clear on the distinction between top level window ... and
18:26:30 [JohnS]
Kelly: move on in 30 sec
18:26:49 [jallan]
1.8.6 OK!
18:26:55 [JohnS]
Kelly: missing a 1.8.8
18:27:14 [JohnS]
Jeanne: the renumbering will be done after the face to face
18:27:15 [greg]
Slight concern that we don't distinguish between top-level content windows and messageboxes, e.g. if authored script calls print, browser puts up a choose printer dialog box, that is or could seem to be a top-level window.
18:27:17 [JohnS]
the renumbering will happen before publishing
18:27:25 [JohnS]
Kelly:
18:27:36 [JohnS]
1.8.9 Close viewport
18:27:42 [JohnS]
seems pretty basic to me
18:27:52 [JohnS]
why is this AA?
18:27:52 [jallan]
1.8.7 OK!
18:27:58 [JohnS]
Jeanne: because of the scripting
18:28:12 [JohnS]
...when people open adds
18:28:15 [JohnS]
Jan: shouldn't everybody be able to close viewprots?
18:28:20 [JohnS]
what's the accessibilty extra?
18:28:37 [JohnS]
Kim: when users have difficulty moving things around to close it is difficult
18:28:40 [JohnS]
Jeanne:
18:29:15 [JohnS]
Jan: this is not an accessibility only tihng
18:29:29 [JohnS]
worried aobut the case that the top level viewport is the chrome
18:29:44 [JohnS]
Kelly: this needs to go away, because there isn't a concept of closing the top level viewport
18:29:51 [JohnS]
you can make them go away, but it doesn't close them
18:30:12 [JohnS]
specially in the mobile world where applicaions aren't closed but goes away
18:30:31 [JohnS]
Kim: when something pops up in from on the viewport, and can't reach content underneaht.
18:30:38 [JohnS]
Jan: I get the point, but I thin ktihs applies to all users.
18:30:49 [jallan]
s/underneaht/underneath
18:30:59 [JohnS]
Greg: iOS, it is unclear whether you are closing the window
18:31:15 [JohnS]
Kelly: Windows 8, in immersive ... can't close the broser
18:31:22 [jallan]
s/thin ktihs/think this
18:31:26 [JohnS]
Jeanne: get rid of 1.8.9
18:32:13 [jallan]
1.8.9 remove
18:33:18 [JohnS]
1.8.10 Same UI
18:33:22 [JohnS]
Greg: I like it
18:33:30 [JohnS]
Kelly: why is this not A?
18:33:34 [JohnS]
Greg: we had a lot of discusison about that
18:33:37 [JohnS]
Kelly: ok
18:33:44 [jallan]
1.8.10 OK
18:34:13 [JohnS]
1.8.11 indicate viewport position
18:34:23 [JohnS]
Jan: if 1.8.4 becomes scrool indication why can't it do double duty?
18:34:49 [JohnS]
Jeanne: how does it work in teh audio browser?
18:34:58 [JohnS]
Jim: you querry and it tell you X% in that
18:35:17 [JohnS]
Kelly: I'm ok with merging 1.8.4 and 1.8.11 Indicate viewport position
18:35:40 [JohnS]
Jan: I withdraw, let's keep it simple and move on
18:36:01 [JohnS]
Jan: ;et's make this Level A and put it side by side with 1.8.4
18:37:18 [JohnS]
1.10
18:37:24 [jallan]
s/;et's/let's
18:37:27 [JohnS]
provide alternative views
18:38:13 [JohnS]
Simon: we werr talking about combining this with 2.7 hiertical ...
18:38:54 [JohnS]
correction 2.7 ==2.5.7
18:39:47 [JohnS]
simon: we agreed to amalgamate the two, I send some wording, but I'm trying to find out where it's comming.
18:40:28 [JohnS]
s/2.7/2.5.7
18:41:15 [JohnS]
Jim: 1.10.3 and 2.5.7 has the same wording
18:42:15 [JohnS]
Kelly: 1.10.1 Text view
18:42:50 [JohnS]
Kelly: why not call it source view?
18:42:54 [JohnS]
agreed
18:43:18 [JohnS]
Wayne: can we switch text source to source text?
18:43:25 [JohnS]
Kelly: it's a linked termed
18:43:39 [JohnS]
Jeanne: it's a definition, I need an action to change this
18:44:20 [JohnS]
Simon: I think we agreed on the telecom except for Greg
18:44:34 [JohnS]
... there was no action, and no comments.
18:44:41 [JohnS]
... it felled off the agenda
18:44:47 [JohnS]
... I'll be happy to do.
18:45:00 [JohnS]
Kelly: you need to do what the groups tells you to do
18:45:12 [JohnS]
Simon: I'm happy to make the changes
18:45:31 [JohnS]
Jeane: one is hiertical view and one is ... the types are different
18:45:41 [JohnS]
Simon: this implies operability
18:45:49 [JohnS]
greg: 2 different things:
18:46:13 [JohnS]
...1. simon correctly pointed out that the ouline view should not change to an interaction outline view
18:46:33 [JohnS]
2. Structural navifation should not move to a ...
18:46:58 [JohnS]
Jim: that's why we have 2 diffrerent things: to allow for them
18:47:11 [JohnS]
Greg: yes it's broader, the 2 requiremetns do need to remain seperate
18:47:52 [greg]
That is, there was discussion of combining the SC about configuring elements for outline view and for structural navigation, which I believe should remain separate.
18:48:38 [jallan]
http://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/search?type-index=w3c-wai-ua&index-type=t&keywords=2.5.7&search=Search
18:48:53 [JohnS]
Mark: this is talkin gabout navifation not view
18:49:12 [JohnS]
.. this says hieratical view, but should say navigation
18:49:15 [JohnS]
Greg: we need both
18:50:28 [JohnS]
Jeanne: there was a discussion where we delibrately separated into two seperate handle
18:50:39 [JohnS]
Greg: I am against combining them, but I am for moving it all to navigation
18:52:12 [JohnS]
Greg: 1.10.2 outline view does not have structural view and navigation
18:53:38 [JohnS]
Greg: what about combining 1.10.3 configure elemenets for structural navigation and 2.5.7 configure elemenets for hierchical views
18:53:48 [JohnS]
Simon: what's the problme? can you provide example
18:53:59 [JohnS]
Greg: only show me H1 and H2, I do'nt want to see H3
18:54:24 [JohnS]
for structural navigation: but take me to he next header, I mean every header, do not skip H3,H4...
18:54:42 [JohnS]
you want to navigate to things that are hidden in the navigation view
18:54:53 [JohnS]
simon: I understand but I don't like it
18:55:25 [JohnS]
GreG: another example, if I say don't show me the structual navigation woul dbe things like take me to the next row, but I don't want to see every row shown on the outline view
18:55:36 [JohnS]
Kelly: you want to navigate in more details than you want to view
18:55:59 [JohnS]
Greg: when outline it up I only want to see a limited subsection
18:56:33 [JohnS]
... 1.10.3 hierarchical view is wrong it sohuld say structural navigation
18:56:51 [mhakkine]
1.10.2 Hierarchical View: An "outline" view of rendered content is provided, composed of labels for important structural elements (e.g. heading text, table titles, form titles, and other labels that are part of the content). (Level AA) Note: The outline constitutes the important structural elements for the user (See 1.10.3). A label is defined by each markup language specification. For example, in HTML, a heading (H1-H6) is a label for the section that foll
18:57:11 [mhakkine]
1.10.2 Hierarchical View:
18:57:14 [mhakkine]
1.10.3 Configure Elements for Hierarchical View
18:57:27 [mhakkine]
2.5.7 Configure Elements for Structured Navigation:
18:58:49 [JohnS]
simon: why can't we say the user has the option to configure important and structure
18:59:00 [JohnS]
Greg: it is not the same list
18:59:12 [JohnS]
... so it needs to say independent
18:59:27 [JohnS]
Kelly: I'm ok with independent.
19:00:12 [JohnS]
... we're moving toward the same thing.
19:00:24 [JohnS]
... where does this leave us?
19:00:37 [jallan]
proposed 1.5.x The user can independently configure the sets of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view. (Level AAA)
19:00:48 [jallan]
proposed 2.5.x The user can independently configure the sets of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view. (Level AAA)
19:01:12 [jallan]
proposed 2.5.x The user can independently configure the sets of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline views. (Level AAA)
19:02:11 [JohnS]
Greg: Simon's point if there's an outline view I should be able to click to navigate. it should become operable
19:02:17 [JohnS]
Kelly: outline view should be first perceivable
19:02:46 [JohnS]
Greg: we want user's to be able to navigate by it.
19:03:46 [JohnS]
Greg: if we're going to standardize outline, structural/hierarchical
19:03:53 [JohnS]
Kelly: can I throw out an radical?
19:04:19 [JohnS]
... we have 1.10.2 which is provide a hierarchical view which we call outline view
19:04:26 [JohnS]
1.10.3 let you configure the elements for that
19:04:29 [JohnS]
leave those alone
19:04:42 [JohnS]
now we have 2.5.7 which is provide structural navigation
19:04:55 [JohnS]
and another which is configure the structural navigation elements
19:04:59 [JohnS]
we shouldn't combine these
19:06:02 [JohnS]
...I do'nt htink they should be combined because I can picture someone implementing the first one, but not the secondary
19:06:45 [JohnS]
Greg: we're going to keep 4
19:07:11 [JohnS]
Jan; this stays with 1,
19:07:33 [JohnS]
Greg: then we're keeping eveyrthing pretty much what is is now, and cleaning up the wording and it's operable for navigation.
19:08:20 [JohnS]
Greg: we need to provide good examples for this
19:09:14 [JohnS]
Wayne: we need a hook in there....
19:09:15 [jallan]
@@ technique for 2.5.7, 1.10.2 include dialog box include in outline view, include in navigation@@
19:09:39 [JohnS]
Greg: when formating, text insersion point, and viewport persists.
19:09:54 [JohnS]
Kelly: it's 12:08 can we confirm
19:09:58 [JohnS]
Jim: what did we decide?
19:11:13 [greg]
So I think our plan is to keep two SC in 1.10, provide outline view and customize its elements, and two SC in 2.5, provide structural navigation and customize ts elements. Plus we will change the SC about outline view to ensure that users can navigate using it. And finally we will normalize the wordings.
19:11:26 [JohnS]
Kelly: 1.10.2 is ok it just needs ot be operable
19:11:37 [JohnS]
Gerg: Simon are you goood wit htaht need wording?
19:11:58 [JohnS]
Kelly: Simon, do you agree with this?
19:12:22 [JohnS]
Simon: this has been coming back for the last 5 months and we keep going around in circles, as long as everybody agrees, let's move on
19:13:11 [JohnS]
Kelly: we need work in 1.10.2 that say that the viw must be provided and must be able to operate it
19:14:15 [JohnS]
Jan: I'll take the action to try to make it operable
19:14:28 [JohnS]
Kelly: 1.10.2 goes on the no list
19:14:34 [greg]
s/Gerg/Greg/
19:14:45 [Jan]
Action: JR to propose how to explain that 1.10.2 outline view should be operable
19:14:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-639 - Propose how to explain that 1.10.2 outline view should be operable [on Jan Richards - due 2011-11-10].
19:14:51 [JohnS]
1.10.3, title needs to change but we're good with that
19:15:12 [JohnS]
1.11.1 access relationship
19:15:13 [JohnS]
1.11.1
19:15:32 [JohnS]
Simon: i thought someone request some changes on this
19:15:40 [JohnS]
Jeanne: there are some old action items
19:15:45 [JohnS]
Kelly: vote no
19:16:12 [JohnS]
1.11.1 Access relationship we need to check is there are old action items attached, if none we're ok with this
19:16:53 [JohnS]
Greg: on 1.11.1 the phrase based on the user's position in content is different than teh phrase we used elsewhere: based on an element
19:16:59 [JohnS]
EG user can do something for an element
19:17:01 [greg]
1.11.1 the phrase "based on the user's position in content" is different from the phrase we use elsewhere which emphasizes based on an element.
19:17:14 [JohnS]
1.11.1 needs to go into purgatory
19:17:23 [greg]
But that's purely stylistic.
19:17:48 [JohnS]
1.11.2 extended link information
19:17:54 [JohnS]
Kelly: are we ok with that? AAA
19:18:22 [sharper]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0046.html
19:18:31 [sharper]
Here is the discussion
19:18:34 [greg]
In 1.11.2 Extended Link Information, the phrase "the user agent provides" is not hthe phrase we use elsewhere for presenting info to the user.
19:19:53 [JohnS]
Kelly: it's a no for no 1.11.2 extended link information because we have a thread on this
19:20:51 [JohnS]
Kelly: let's break for lunch
19:21:48 [Zakim]
-sharper
19:21:48 [Zakim]
-tpac
19:21:49 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG(TPAC)11:30AM has ended
19:21:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were tpac, sharper
19:23:46 [jallan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:23:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-ua-minutes.html jallan
20:35:18 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
20:49:45 [kford]
2.7.1 Change Preference Settings
20:49:47 [kford]
The user can change settings that impact accessibility. (Level A)
20:49:49 [kford]
Intent:
20:49:50 [kford]
Users have a variety of needs when it comes to customization of a user agent. This success criteria ensures that a user can customize settings offered by the user agent to meet those needs.
20:49:52 [kford]
2.7.2 Persistent Accessibility Settings
20:49:54 [kford]
: User agent accessibility preference settings persist between sessions. (Level A)
20:49:56 [kford]
Intent:
20:49:57 [kford]
When a user has customized settings within the user agent to maximize accessibility,
20:49:59 [kford]
this success criteria ensures that customization is saved between browsing sessions. The user can then have those settings automatically used in subsequnet browsing sessionsrrsagent, make minutes
20:50:02 [JohnS]
2.7.4 Multiple Sets of preference settings: The user can save and retrieve multiple sets of user agent preferences settings. (Level AA)
20:50:12 [JohnS]
Intent Some users may need to change their setting preferences under different circumstances such as varying levels of user fatigue or changes in environmental noise or lighting conditions. Providing an easy method for saving and switching between a set of preferences helps the user complete intended tasks in different situations.
20:52:13 [mhakkine]
2.7.3 Restore all to default: The user can restore all preference settings to default values. (Level A)
20:52:23 [mhakkine]
Users who configure accessibility preference settings may decide that their chosen settings may not be suitable and wish to restore these settings to their default values. For some users, it may be difficult to easily recall all modified settings while others may find it difficult to navigate to each modified setting, especially if a particular setting may have impacted their ability to do so. This success criteria provides a means for a user to easily restore
20:52:49 [mhakkine]
This success criteria provides a means for a user to easily restore all preference settings to their default values using a single function or action.
21:15:44 [kford]
4.2.3 Return Focus [former 1.9.7, before that 3.11.7]:
21:15:46 [kford]
At any time, the user agent can retrieve input focus from a nested viewport (including nested viewports that are user agents). (Level A)
21:15:48 [kford]
Being able to return focus to a predictable location can help users orient themselves within the full range of user interface and content offered by a user agent. This success criteria ensures that the user agent can always move focus back to sucha location.
21:15:52 [JohnS]
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21:16:21 [kford]
4.2.3 Return Focus [former 1.9.7, before that 3.11.7]:
21:16:23 [kford]
At any time, the user agent can retrieve input focus from a nested viewport (including nested viewports that are user agents). (Level A)
21:16:25 [kford]
Being able to return focus to a predictable location can help users orient themselves within the full range of user interface and content offered by a user agent. This success criteria ensures that the user agent can always move focus back to sucha location.
21:16:38 [mhakkinen]
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21:16:46 [kford]
4.2.3 Return Focus [former 1.9.7, before that 3.11.7]:
21:16:49 [kford]
At any time, the user agent can retrieve input focus from a nested viewport (including nested viewports that are user agents). (Level A)
21:16:51 [kford]
Being able to return focus to a predictable location can help users orient themselves within the full range of user interface and content offered by a user agent. This success criteria ensures that the user agent can always move focus back to sucha location.
21:22:44 [Jan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0038.html
21:23:02 [Jan]
Topic: 2.5.1
21:23:11 [Jan]
2.5.1 (moving to 2.3.X) Discover navigation and activation keystrokes: The user can discover direct navigation and activation keystrokes both programmatically and via perceivable labels. (Level A)
21:23:12 [jeanne]
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21:23:17 [Jan]
Intent 2.5.1 (moving to 2.3.X): To ensure that users using a keyboard interface have the ability to both discover and be reminded of keystrokes, while they are using the user agent. Some of these users may be using assistive technologies enabling communication of the keystrokes by programmatic means, while other users will need visual indicators, such as underlines.
21:24:21 [jallan]
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21:25:37 [Jan]
Intent 2.5.1 (moving to 2.3.X): The user of a keyboard interface can both discover and be reminded of keystrokes. Some of these users may be using assistive technologies enabling communication of the keystrokes by programmatic means, while other users will need visual indicators, such as underlines.
21:25:41 [jallan]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:25:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-ua-minutes.html jallan
21:27:19 [jallan]
Resolution: move 2.5.1 to 2.3.x
21:27:32 [Jan]
Intent 2.5.1 (moving to 2.3.X): The user of a keyboard interface needs to be able to discover and be reminded of keystrokes. Some of these users may be using assistive technologies enabling communication of the keystrokes by programmatic means, while other users will need visual indicators, such as underlines.
21:29:16 [jallan]
topic: 2.11.8
21:29:24 [Jan]
2.11.8 Semantic Navigation of Time-Based Media: The user can navigate by semantic structure within the time-based media, such as by chapters or scenes present in the media (Level AA)
21:29:26 [Jan]
Intent 2.11.8: To allow users to navigate time-based media in ways that are more meaningful than arbitrary time increments.
21:29:28 [Jan]
BUT is this a sub-class of (2.3.1 Direct Navigation to Important Elements)
21:30:23 [Jan]
Intent 2.11.8: Users need to be able to navigate time-based media in ways that are more meaningful than arbitrary time increments.
21:33:52 [jallan]
users with disabilities need to efficiently navigate through chunks (chapters, scenes) of media
21:36:00 [jallan]
topic: 2.11.9
21:36:13 [Jan]
2.11.9 Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media: During time-based media playback, the user can determine which tracks are available and select or deselect tracks. These selections may override global default settings for captions, audio descriptions, etc. (Level AA)
21:36:13 [Jan]
Intent 2.11.9: To give users the ability to choose the tracks to meet their accessibility needs when authors have provided many alternatives.
21:36:13 [Jan]
NOTE similarity to 1.1.2 Browse and Render
21:37:25 [jallan]
Some users with disabilities need to choose different languages or audio tracks (descriptive video)
21:37:28 [Jan]
Intent 2.11.9: Users need the ability to choose the tracks that best meet their accessibility needs (e.g. the caption track in their own language) when authors have provided many alternatives.
21:38:26 [JohnS]
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21:39:15 [mhakkinen]
2.7.1 Change Preference Settings
21:39:22 [mhakkinen]
The user can change settings that impact accessibility. (Level A)
21:39:33 [mhakkinen]
Users have a variety of needs when it comes to customization of a user agent. This success criteria ensures that a user can customize settings offered by the user agent to meet those needs.
21:41:47 [jallan]
the document has many SC that say specify, configure, etc. this allows the changing.
21:42:26 [mhakkinen]
2.7.2 Persistence of Settings Affecting Accessibility
21:42:34 [mhakkinen]
User agent accessibility preference settings persist between sessions. (Level A)
21:42:41 [mhakkinen]
When a user has customized settings within the user agent to maximize accessibility, this success criteria ensures that customization is saved between browsing sessions. The user can then have those settings automatically used in subsequent browsing sessions.
21:42:43 [jallan]
@@remove 2.7.1
21:43:13 [jallan]
Resolution: Remove 2.7.1
21:44:19 [jallan]
topic: 2.7.2 persistence of a11y settings
21:45:24 [jallan]
2.7.2 Persistence of Settings Affecting Accessibility-- User agent accessibility preference settings persist between sessions. (Level A) Intent: When a user has customized settings within the user agent to maximize accessibility, this success criteria ensures that customization is saved between browsing sessions. The user can then have those settings automatically used in subsequent browsing sessions.
21:46:33 [jallan]
discussion of whether this applies to multiple users
21:47:12 [jallan]
the intent is a per user basis.
21:47:33 [mhakkinen]
2.7.3 Restore all to default: The user can restore all preference settings to default values. (Level A)
21:47:42 [jallan]
topic: 2.7.3
21:47:42 [mhakkinen]
Users who customize settings may find that their chosen settings are not suitable and decide to restore these settings to their default values. For some users, it may be difficult to easily recall all modified settings while others may find it difficult to navigate to each modified setting, especially if a particular setting may have impacted their ability to do so. This success criteria provides a means for a user to easily restore all preference setting
21:49:01 [mhakkinen]
This success criteria provides a means for a user to easily restore all preference settings to their default values using a single function or action.
21:51:11 [mhakkinen]
For some users, it may be difficult to easily recall all modified settings while others may find it difficult to navigate to each modified setting, especially if a particular setting may have impacted their ability to do so. Users who customize settings may find that their chosen settings are not suitable and decide to restore these settings to their default values. This success criteria provides a means for a user to easily restore all preference settin
21:51:11 [mhakkinen]
revised intent:
21:51:21 [mhakkinen]
tion or action.
21:51:29 [jallan]
topic: 2.7.4
21:51:56 [JohnS]
2.7.4 Multiple Sets of Preference Settings: The user can save and retrieve multiple sets of user agent preference settings. (Level AA)
21:52:11 [JohnS]
Intent Some users may need to change their setting preferences under different circumstances such as varying levels of user fatigue or changes in environmental noise or lighting conditions. Providing an easy method for saving and switching between a set of preferences helps the user complete intended tasks in different situations. (2.7.4)
21:52:47 [JohnS]
2.7.5 Restore related preferences to default: The user can restore groups of related preference settings to default values (e.g. reset keyboard shortcuts, reset colors and sizes of rendered content). (Level AA)
21:52:51 [jallan]
topic: 2.7.5
21:53:22 [Jan]
scribe: Jan
21:53:42 [Jan]
John: In mobile space this isn't really possible...
21:54:45 [Jan]
KF: We should remove
21:54:48 [Jan]
JS: Agreed
21:54:55 [Jan]
John: Recommend remove
21:55:31 [Jan]
GL: is this the only one that talks about groups of settings...
21:55:44 [Jan]
GL: e.g. the ability to send someone an appearance scheme
21:56:13 [Jan]
John: I agree re: modifying but not resetting
21:56:19 [Jan]
GL: Useful on windows - appearance scheme
21:56:32 [Jan]
GL: Not as useful if it was ALL settings
21:56:52 [Jan]
KP: e.g. in GMail addon to change keyboard shortcuts
21:57:45 [greg]
This is not directly about 2.7, but it is beneficial for programs to allow users to save, distribute, and load groups of related settings without having it carry ALL settings with it.
21:57:55 [Jan]
Resolution: Remove 2.7.5
21:59:16 [JohnS]
2.7.6 Change preference setting outside the UI: The user can adjust preference settings from outside the user agent user interface. (Level AA)
21:59:31 [jallan]
topic: 2.7.6
21:59:37 [jallan]
scribe: jallan
22:00:35 [jallan]
john: on mobile platforms there is no way to do this
22:00:37 [JohnS]
Intent: When the user inadvertently selects a setting that renders the UI inaccessible, a method must be provided to allow the user to reset the UI.
22:00:45 [JohnS]
Examples: 1. On a desktop device, there is a command line interface to reset the accessibility parameters. 2. On a mobile a hard button could be used to reset the accessibility parameters on user command.
22:03:12 [jallan]
greg: concerned about using only 'reset', prefers adjust
22:04:28 [jallan]
use 'user preferences' instead of a11y parameters
22:06:53 [JohnS]
The user should have the ability to set user preferences to enable accessibility features of a UA prior to launching the UA.
22:07:58 [jallan]
jan: the control settings for the UA chrome
22:09:35 [jallan]
...if chrome slaved to the settings of the os. the user could change the OS to affect the UA UI so the user has ....
22:09:57 [JohnS]
he user should have the ability to set user preferences to enable the controls of the accessibility features of a UA.
22:10:46 [jallan]
^^ new intent
22:11:32 [JohnS]
2.7.7 Portable Preference settings: The user can transfer preference settings onto a compatible system. (Level AAA)
22:11:49 [jeanne]
action: Jeanne to smith the IER for 2.7.6
22:11:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-640 - Smith the IER for 2.7.6 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-11-10].
22:11:58 [jallan]
topic: 2.7.7
22:12:11 [JohnS]
Intent: A user can migrate preference setting from one device to another in order to maintain accessibility parameters.
22:13:42 [jallan]
A user who has spent time customizing accessibility preferences to meet their needs, they can easily migrate preference setting to another device in order to maintain accessibility of other user agents
22:14:13 [JohnS]
Intent: User will spend time customizing a UA to maximize accessibility, the user should be able to migrate the customization to maintain accessibility when using a compatible system. This will also allow rehabilitation professional of setting the required setting once.
22:14:30 [jallan]
jan: Portable Preference settings: The user can transfer preference settings onto a compatible user agent.
22:15:01 [Jan]
jan: Portable Preference settings: The user can transfer preference settings between instances of the user agent
22:16:16 [jallan]
kelly: if you have portable preference settings you must include accessibility preference settings.
22:17:21 [jallan]
kelly: wants to remove this. it is only about a11y settings
22:20:54 [jallan]
kim and greg have use registry files to help users with accessibility
22:21:24 [jallan]
kelly says this will not fly
22:21:43 [jallan]
jeanne: this is AAA, it is planting a seed.
22:22:20 [jallan]
mark: chome has this feature, synchronization
22:22:49 [jeanne]
I think that if this is a step toward GPII, it is a good thing to include it at AAA
22:23:11 [jallan]
proposed rewording: Portable Preference settings: The user can transfer preference settings between instances of the user agent
22:23:34 [jallan]
this is roaming preferences
22:24:50 [jallan]
Intent: User will spend time customizing a UA to maximize accessibility, the user should be able to migrate the customization to maintain accessibility when using a compatible system. This will also allow rehabilitation professional of setting the required setting once.
22:25:11 [jallan]
A user who has spent time customizing accessibility preferences to meet their needs, they can easily migrate preference setting to another device in order to maintain accessibility of other user agents
22:26:41 [jallan]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:26:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-ua-minutes.html jallan
22:42:59 [jallan]
action: jeanne to wordsmith 2.7.7
22:42:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-641 - Wordsmith 2.7.7 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-11-10].
22:44:19 [jallan]
topic: 2.11.3
22:44:27 [greg]
2.11.3 Execution Placeholder: The user can render a placeholder instead of executable content that would normally be contained within an on-screen area (e.g. Applet, Flash), until explicit user request to execute. (Level A)
22:44:30 [greg]
Intent: Documents that do things automatically when loaded can delay, distract, or interfere with user's ability to continue with a task. In the case of embedded objects, applets and media, replacing the executable content with a placeholder tells the user what has been blocked and provides a mechanism (e.g. a play button) for unblocking when the user is ready.
22:44:30 [greg]
Note: It is generally recommended that the placeholder take up the same space as the object it is replacing, so that the presentation does not need to be reflowed when the execution is started. However, users on mobile devices or using screen enlargers, or who have difficulty with scroll commands may benefit from having the option of a smaller placholder.
22:44:32 [greg]
22:44:34 [greg]
Examples:
22:44:36 [greg]
Jane has difficulty concentrating. In order to concentrate on the text of a document she wants to hide any multimedia content, and only trigger execution of that content when she feels it's appropriate. An icon on the status bar tells him that scripts have been blocked, and by clicking it he can select which scripts to run.
22:44:39 [greg]
Evan is blind. He sets the option in his browser so that when a web page loads it does not automatically run executable object, so that any or music or speech they play won't interfere with his ability to hear his screen reader. An icon on the status bar tells him that scripts have been blocked, and by clicking it she can select which scripts to run.
22:48:11 [greg]
Jane has difficulty concentrating. In order to concentrate on the text of a document she wants to hide any multimedia content, and only trigger execution of that content by clicking on the placeholder she feels it's appropriate.
22:48:50 [greg]
Evan is blind. He sets the option in his browser so that when a web page loads it does not automatically run executable object, so that any or music or speech they play won't interfere with his ability to hear his screen reader. When he is ready to start it playing he navigates to the placeholder and presses the Enter key to activate it.
22:50:10 [jallan]
topic: 2.11.4
22:50:17 [greg]
2.11.4 Execution Toggle: The user can turn on/off the execution of executable content that would not normally be contained within a particular area (e.g. Javascript). (Level A)
22:50:19 [greg]
Intent: Documents that do things automatically when loaded can delay, distract, or interfere with user's ability to continue with a task. The user needs to be able to specify that executable content (e.g. scripts) be blocked when a document loads, be told which content has been blocked, and be able to selectively execute the content at a later time.
22:50:20 [greg]
Examples:
22:50:22 [greg]
Jane has difficulty concentrating. In order to concentrate on the text of a document she wants to prevent any animations, media, or dynamic content from executing until she is ready. An icon on the status bar tells him that scripts have been blocked, and by clicking it she can select which scripts to run.
22:50:23 [greg]
Evan is blind. He sets the option in his browser so that when a web page loads it does not automatically start running scripts that might play sounds that would interfere with his ability to hear his screen reader. An icon on the status bar tells him that scripts have been blocked, and by clicking it he can select which scripts to run.
22:51:32 [greg]
Jane has difficulty concentrating. In order to concentrate on the text of a document she wants to prevent any animations, media, or dynamic content from executing until she is ready. An icon on the status bar tells her that scripts have been blocked, and by clicking it she can select which scripts to run.
22:52:39 [jallan]
kelly: has issues with this sc. can already turn on/off javascript. browsers have 'filtering' can turn on/off active X.
22:53:12 [jallan]
... can not selectively turn on js or active x items.
22:54:14 [jallan]
jan: the intent in informational. so the selectivity is implied
22:54:33 [jallan]
... need a note that javascript is ubiquitious and no content may appear on the page
22:54:46 [greg]
Note: Some web applications and document may be essentially empty until scripts are run. However, it is still important for users to have this level of control.
22:56:12 [greg]
Evan is blind. He sets the option in his browser so that when a web page loads it does not automatically start running scripts that might play sounds that would interfere with his ability to hear his screen reader. An icon on the status bar tells him that scripts have been blocked, and by activating it he can select which scripts to run.
22:57:25 [jallan]
only 2.11.8 and 2.11.9 still to write intents!!
22:57:54 [jallan]
this is incorrect
22:57:59 [jallan]
topic 2.11.6
22:58:21 [greg]
2.11.6 Stop/Pause/Resume Time-Based Media: The user can stop, pause, and resume rendered audio and animation content (including video and animated images) that last three or more seconds at their default playback rate. (Level A)
22:58:22 [greg]
Time-based media such as audio and video can delay, distract, or interfere with user's ability to continue with a task. When media is playing, the user may realize that it is interfering with her ability to carry out other tasks. She may also need to pause and resume playback to allow her to keep up or carry out other tasks at the same time.
22:58:24 [greg]
Examples:
22:58:25 [greg]
* Evan is blind and wants to pause the audio in order to carry out another task without it interfering with his ability to hear their screen reader.
22:58:27 [greg]
* Marla starts playing a video and realizes user with seizure disorders realizes the video is uncomfortable, so she presses the space bar to pause it.
22:59:53 [greg]
Those are just a start, not finished yet.
23:00:38 [jallan]
action: greg to smith the 2.11.6 intent/examples
23:00:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-642 - Smith the 2.11.6 intent/examples [on Greg Lowney - due 2011-11-10].
23:00:49 [mhakkinen]
2.11.6 Intent - Users with sensory, attentional, or cognitive impairments may have difficulty following or understanding multimedia content. By allowing time-based media to be stopped, paused, and resumed, users are able control the presentation, providing time to understand or act upon presented content before continuing, or to stop potentially distracting information.
23:05:14 [jallan]
topic: 2.11.7
23:05:32 [jallan]
2.11.7 Navigate Time-Based Media: The user can navigate along the timebase using a continuous scale, and by relative time units within rendered audio and animations (including video and animated images) that last three or more seconds at their default playback rate. (Level A)
23:06:33 [greg]
If I could not understand what this meant, I think a lot of our readers will have similar problems.
23:06:54 [greg]
Too much jargon.
23:07:15 [jallan]
action: mark to smith 2.11.7 with jeanne to explain to greg, and write and intent
23:07:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-643 - Smith 2.11.7 with jeanne to explain to greg, and write and intent [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2011-11-10].
23:07:20 [greg]
(Note that I don't think we have an equivalent for normal visual content.)
23:07:54 [greg]
(e.g. scrolling by lines and pages, and jumping to the 5th page).
23:17:13 [jallan]
topic: 3.1.2
23:18:55 [jallan]
jim: not sure what a low priority message
23:19:24 [jallan]
kelly: can do this with ARIA, seems to say support ARIA politeness.
23:21:58 [jallan]
kelly: kick this out. ask in next update @@does UAAG do enough to support WAI ARIA, canvas accessibility, etc@@
23:22:18 [jallan]
jan: thinks it should go
23:24:34 [jallan]
kim: this is important
23:25:03 [jallan]
kim: provides user examples
23:26:23 [jallan]
greg: user has ability to turn off announcements
23:26:35 [jallan]
gregory rosmaita
23:26:49 [jallan]
3.1.2 NO
23:28:11 [jallan]
topic: 3.2.1
23:28:19 [greg]
Back button and Undo (in editing) could be SC in 3.2, as could spell checking.
23:28:34 [jallan]
what about adding sc for spell check, backspace, spell checking
23:28:44 [Jan]
Action: JR to add SC on Undo
23:28:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-644 - Add SC on Undo [on Jan Richards - due 2011-11-10].
23:29:55 [Jan]
Action: Greg to add SC re: Back button
23:29:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-645 - Add SC re: Back button [on Greg Lowney - due 2011-11-10].
23:32:14 [jallan]
need an example for clicking on the submit button and asking for confirmation.
23:32:35 [jallan]
action: greg to write examples for 3.2.1 example for clicking on the submit button and asking for confirmation.
23:32:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-646 - Write examples for 3.2.1 example for clicking on the submit button and asking for confirmation. [on Greg Lowney - due 2011-11-10].
23:33:14 [jallan]
topic: 3.3.1 accessible documentation
23:34:18 [jallan]
all ok
23:34:57 [jallan]
topic: 3.3.2 document accessibilty features
23:35:33 [jallan]
kelly: its ok for product to not have documentation
23:36:13 [jallan]
greg: if the UA doesn't tell you about the accessibility features it should fail uaag
23:36:29 [jallan]
kelly: remove the word ALL
23:37:25 [Jan]
A.4.2.1 Document Accessibility Features: All features of the authoring tool that must be present to meet Part A of ATAG 2.0 (e.g., keyboard shortcuts, text search) are documented. (Level A)
23:38:16 [Jan]
Reworking for UAAG: Document Accessibility Features: All features of the user agent that must be present to meet the other UAAG 2.0 success criteria (e.g., keyboard shortcuts, text search) are documented. (Level A)
23:38:42 [Jan]
Reworking for UAAG: Document Accessibility Features: All features of the user agent that must be present to meet the other UAAG 2.0 success criteria are documented. (Level A)
23:38:59 [Jan]
Reworking for UAAG: Document Accessibility Features: Features of the user agent that must be present to meet the other UAAG 2.0 success criteria are documented. (Level A)
23:40:11 [Jan]
Reworking for UAAG: Document Accessibility Features: All features of the user agent that must be present to meet the other UAAG 2.0 success criteria are documented. (Level A)
23:41:20 [Jan]
Reworking for UAAG: Document Accessibility Features: All features of the user agent that are present to meet the other UAAG 2.0 success criteria are documented. (Level A)
23:42:12 [Jan]
Reworking for UAAG: Document Accessibility Features: All features of the user agent that meet the other UAAG 2.0 success criteria are documented. (Level A)
23:42:20 [Jan]
Reworking for UAAG: Document Accessibility Features: All features of the user agent that meet UAAG 2.0 success criteria are documented. (Level A)
23:44:34 [jallan]
topic: 3.3.3 changes between definitions
23:44:43 [jallan]
jan: this could go away
23:44:50 [jallan]
kim: this is important
23:45:35 [jallan]
jan: this should be AAA
23:45:55 [jallan]
kelly: +1, change wording to reflect language in 3.3.2
23:46:42 [jallan]
kim: new version of UA, do you click on what's new, shouldn't the accessibility features be included in the what's new
23:48:33 [jallan]
jan: they will have already documented the changes. this says please inform the user of a11y changes.
23:49:12 [jallan]
kim: this is really hard for users to discover the changes
23:50:23 [jallan]
greg: so its ok to read a 500 page manual to find the removal of the one feature that you need.
23:51:44 [jallan]
jan: its not in wcag or atag
23:52:11 [jallan]
change to aaa
23:53:36 [jallan]
topic 3.3.4
23:53:38 [jallan]
ok
23:54:19 [jallan]
topic: 3.3.5
23:54:35 [jallan]
jan and others: should be removed
23:54:42 [jallan]
all agree
23:55:31 [greg]
What we're removing is 3.3.5 Context Sensitive Help: There is context-sensitive help on all user agent features that benefit accessibility. (Level AAA)
23:57:17 [jallan]
topic: 3.4.1
23:57:58 [Jan_]
Jan_ has joined #ua