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20:36:19 <anne> scribe: weinig
20:36:27 <anne> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:36:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html anne
20:36:41 <anne> RRSAgent, make minutes public
20:36:41 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', anne.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
20:36:51 <anne> RRSAgent, make public
20:36:51 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make public', anne.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
20:36:55 <weinig> dg: We are starting with an overview and demo
20:37:04 <weinig> dg: [looks for dongle]
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20:37:57 <anne> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:38:15 <anne> RRSAgent, also, fuck you
20:38:15 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'also, fuck you', anne.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
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20:39:23 <weinig> ar: We are working on an imperative model that allows subclassing HTML Elements
20:39:35 <weinig> ar: We are working on a declarative form, but it is not ready
20:39:41 <weinig> ar: [gives a demo]
20:40:20 <weinig> ar: In the demo we are creating an idiomatic JavaScript class that subclasses from HTMLElement
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20:40:40 <weinig> ar: the class is registered as an extension, must start with x-
20:41:08 <weinig> ar: this plugs into the parser to add your own element types
20:41:26 <weinig> travis: would you subclass from Node
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20:42:05 <weinig> ar: that wouldn't make much sense, you really need to subclass HTMLElement
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20:42:19 <weinig> yehuda: can you subclass HTMLInputElement
20:42:39 <weinig> ar: that would be hard, since we would have to define the shadow DOM for form controls for all browsers
20:42:48 <Ms2ger> Meeting: Component Model session
20:43:01 <weinig> ar: it might make sense to only inherit from HTMLElement
20:43:04 <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:43:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
20:43:09 <weinig> yehuda: what about span?
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20:43:18 <weinig> ar:  span is just like HTMLElement
20:43:32 <weinig> ar: another aspect is the Shadow DOM, from XBL
20:43:47 <weinig> ar: any element should be allowed to have a shadow DOM
20:44:12 <weinig> travis: CSS has generated content, how is this different
20:44:27 <Ms2ger> i/We are starting with an overview and demo/Topic: Overview
20:44:29 <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:44:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
20:44:45 <weinig> ar: generated content has certain restrictions, just before and after for instance
20:45:22 <weinig> yehuda: can shadow DOM listen for new events
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20:45:52 <weinig> ar: [notes that events will work]
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20:46:38 <weinig> ar: using the shadow dom, you could use canvas as the rendering, while still having the DOM
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20:46:54 <weinig> ar: shadow DOM is conceptually different, and can be specified seperately
20:47:36 <weinig> ar: [notes in demo that subclassed element has multiple parts, though only one real child in the DOM]
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20:48:21 <weinig> ar: many complicated components suffer from "div soup" today, and shadow dom helps this
20:48:37 <weinig> ar: shadow DOM is created using ShadowRoot constructor
20:49:27 <weinig> ar: shadow DOM API allows you to set a content element
20:50:12 <weinig> dg: content element gives you an insertion point
20:50:40 <weinig> dg: it also doesn't effect the DOM, only the layout
20:50:54 <weinig> dc: a good example is <details>
20:51:04 <weinig> dc: with <summary>
20:51:20 <weinig> dc: [draws disclosure triangle UI]
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20:52:07 <weinig> dc: details would have a shadow DOM with an image for the disclosure triangle
20:52:36 <weinig> dc: <summary> will be forwarded to content elements in the shadow dom 
20:53:10 <weinig> dc: content elements get chosen in document order
20:53:23 <weinig> ar: this is all about creating HTML element subclassing
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20:54:16 <weinig> ar: [shows using subclassing of HTML Elements using ecmascript 6 syntax]
20:54:31 <weinig> js: Why is ShadowRoot a new node type?
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20:54:40 <weinig> js: Why not use element
20:54:50 <weinig> ar: we consider it like a document fragment
20:55:10 <weinig> ar: unlike HTCs, this is not a new document
20:55:39 <weinig> js: adding a new node seems like a big deal
20:55:49 <weinig> js: XBL just uses a template element
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20:56:15 <weinig> ar: I would be ok with that, since shadow root combines both creating the root and attaching it
20:56:30 <weinig> dg: we originally just wanted to use document fragment
20:56:38 <weinig> dg: the shadow root never renders
20:57:00 <weinig> dg: dominic thinks we should only render the shadow root
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20:57:08 <weinig> dg: then do css magic
20:58:05 <weinig> dc: we want innerHTML to work, so we don't use document fragment
20:59:18 <weinig> dc: if shadow root are elements, we would probably want to not replace the children, but rather the element it is the shadow of
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21:00:36 <weinig> rs: one question is how does styling the host element effect shadow content
21:01:19 <weinig> ar: we think that starting with subclassing just HTML elements is a good start
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21:01:53 <weinig> ar: form serialization is something we should allow through a protocol that any element can implement
21:01:58 <anne> Hixie: is web controls still up?
21:02:22 <anne> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-controls/current-work/
21:02:25 <weinig> ar: the component model is helping us flesh out what problems remain in the web platform
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21:03:02 <anne> nothing much there
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21:03:20 <weinig> ar: yes, you could describe implementations using this, but we don't want that right away
21:03:58 <weinig> ar: one thing we should discuss is what is needed from the declarative model
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21:04:17 <weinig> macrus: I was part of the team that made HTC
21:04:38 <weinig> marcus: we took the opposite approach, with the declarative model first
21:05:02 <weinig> marcus: what are the hurdles
21:05:14 <weinig> ar: we are thinking about and <element> element
21:05:57 <weinig> yehuda: I found the declarative part of XTC the most confusing
21:06:10 <weinig> yehuda: may have been documentation
21:06:25 <weinig> yehada: may have been my background as a web developer
21:07:01 <weinig> ar: [types on the screen]
21:08:30 <weinig> ar: what happens when we are loading the webcomponent and the unknown elements are parsed
21:08:57 <weinig> ar: one problem is that doing it after the fact is that people may have references to the unknown elements already
21:09:24 <weinig> ar: we would have a "becomes" event
21:09:47 <weinig> someone: why not sync
21:09:57 <weinig> everyone: sync is bad, no one likes sync
21:10:41 <weinig> anne: another options is to make it like html manifest
21:11:35 <weinig> anne: that solves the source order (unknown element before <link>) but not loading issue
21:11:57 <weinig> js: changing elements in place seems bad
21:12:03 <weinig> ar: we are not doing that
21:13:01 <weinig> ar: the "becomes" events will create a new element, and the old one gets yanked out the tree
21:14:06 <weinig> [lots of yelling]
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21:15:22 <weinig> anne: the new element will actually be created before the event
21:15:53 <weinig> js: it doesn't matter if the element is in the document
21:15:59 <weinig> js: we can fire events on all elements
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21:16:43 <weinig> ar: [is showing stuff on a projector]
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21:18:23 <heycam> Scribe: heycam
21:18:41 <heycam> ar: [explains how the proposed declarative syntax maps to js]
21:19:10 <heycam> ar: we use <template> because we'd like to introduce that in the model-view proposal as well
21:19:17 <heycam> ... this template does not run script
21:19:26 <heycam> ... it doesn't have side effects, network requests
21:19:48 <heycam> dg: template would be a really useful chunk to have without shadow dom or component model
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21:20:12 <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:20:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
21:20:13 <heycam> ar: through <link> you can importa a definition
21:20:29 <heycam> ... <link rel="webcomponent href="comment.html">
21:20:48 <heycam> ... what if you watn to declare that some attributes proxy to an internal implementation?
21:20:51 <heycam> s/watn/want/
21:21:00 <heycam> ... so that you can do a +1 or Like button that has access to cross origin resources
21:21:05 <heycam> ... all these things are same origin in this world so far
21:21:25 <heycam> ... but I think we can come up witha  declarative syntax where you can define your attributes, script runs in the cross origin context, and postMessage is used between them
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21:21:34 <heycam> dg: it could just bea n attribute on <link> "confine"
21:21:48 <heycam> ... instead of introducing the definiton into the document, it instead introduces proxies for these elements
21:21:59 <heycam> ... then you could have a real live thing that has a synchronous api to a cross origin iframe e.g.
21:22:06 <heycam> ... that looks like your component but exists in a separate document
21:22:08 <heycam> ... it would just work
21:22:28 <heycam> ar: the primary impetus for this system design is that when building large scale apps, we want to use DOM as the primary retained mode API
21:22:38 <heycam> ... we write declaratively the template, and use script to modify later
21:22:42 <Ms2ger> s/bea n/be an/
21:22:44 <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:22:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
21:22:48 <heycam> yk: seems good, but i'd like to play with it to give feedback
21:22:55 <heycam> ar: haven't provided builds yet, but it's on our todo lists
21:22:56 <heycam> s/lists/list/
21:23:09 <heycam> yk: i think it woud be valuable to get people to try to build something with it
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21:23:27 <heycam> js: the element element needs the ability to have declaratively not xbl1 declarative style but something where you can define an api
21:23:56 <heycam> ar: if you have a special script type, to prevent it from being executed otherwise...
21:24:06 <heycam> [ ar puts <script> inside <element> ]
21:24:22 <heycam> dg: in the script, "this" would not be window, it'd be the element
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21:24:47 <heycam> ar: you've define your own Constructor name in an attribute, but instead if you use <script> in there you'd just use the name of the function/class you declare in there
21:25:04 <heycam> yk: don't want it to conflict with the extends="" you specify either
21:25:11 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:25:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
21:25:17 <heycam> js: one of the things that's nice about xbl1/2 is the ability to have purely stylistic bindings attached with css
21:25:32 <heycam> ... a shadow dom that's generated and which you can put two borders instead of one for example
21:25:38 <heycam> ar: i think the css style of attachemnt is desirable
21:25:53 <ArtB> Meeting: Component Model Gathering @ TPAC
21:25:54 <heycam> ... you can think of tagName as a css property you're matching against
21:26:17 <heycam> ... one thing to worry about is applying/unapplying templates
21:26:30 <heycam> js: i don't think css-attached bindings should allow defining api
21:26:59 <heycam> js: a trivial example in css is you can't have a two bordered element
21:27:17 <heycam> dg: we had this discussion, spent a bit of time, any time you step into decorators it's a pit of despair
21:27:19 <heycam> ... the problem is simple
21:27:25 <heycam> ... decorators should have no non-local effects
21:27:32 <heycam> ... constrained to that, there's little interesting you can do
21:27:39 <heycam> ... maybe css should just handle this use case
21:27:46 <heycam> js: i think css should be able to do it, and by using this syntax
21:27:53 <heycam> ... you'll also need <content>
21:28:06 <heycam> js: you'll want to have a <style> element too, so you can attach scoped style
21:28:10 <heycam> ar: that's not missing, it's in the <template>
21:28:20 <heycam> js: i don't see why we couldn't use the same shadom dom for this
21:28:26 <heycam> ... we can allow behaviour, but just not api
21:28:39 <heycam> ... if all you want to do is change style, why would you want to add api?
21:28:44 <heycam> ar: why would you want to add event handlers?
21:28:57 <heycam> ... if I can script the object from event handlers, the horse has left the barn
21:29:05 <heycam> dg: if you don't get that object, then there's nothing interesting you can do
21:29:10 <heycam> ... that's why xbl2 is so hard
21:29:15 <heycam> ... because there's nothing you can take away forom it
21:29:25 <heycam> js: xbl2 has a problem with binding/unbinding
21:29:37 <heycam> ... from a js point of view, any binding that is attached is done at creation time and never detached
21:29:46 <heycam> ar: there is an additional step we'd like to propose
21:29:51 <heycam> ... it's an orthogonal problem
21:30:01 <heycam> ... we can accept something like MS's watchSelector proposal, and build on that
21:30:06 <heycam> js: i want to do something not scripted
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21:30:16 <heycam> js: you might have a specific css property type that desugars to watchSelector
21:30:25 <heycam> ... and then have a shadow for the shadow, or a pseudoshadow
21:30:42 <heycam> ... if an element has a shadow and you want to compose it with another, for example a parent, then you have two levels of shadow doms
21:30:46 <heycam> ... you need to define how it flattens
21:30:51 <heycam> ... your'e saying i can't extend the api?
21:30:58 <heycam> ... which is the constraint you need to enforce if you want to allow detachment
21:31:02 <heycam> ... at that point, why not allow detachment?
21:31:09 <heycam> dg: if you are applying with css, you need detachment
21:31:21 <heycam> js: i don't want detachment nad attachment of js apis from css
21:31:27 <heycam> ar: so side effect fre?
21:31:41 <heycam> ar: i suggest that's a separate problem
21:31:50 <heycam> Present+ Alex_Russell
21:31:55 <heycam> Present+ Dmitri_Glazkov
21:31:58 <heycam> Present+ Sam_Weinig
21:32:05 <heycam> Present+ Ted_OConnor
21:32:07 <Ms2ger> Present+ Jonas_Sicking
21:32:14 <heycam> Present: Travis_Leithead
21:32:19 <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:32:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
21:32:19 <heycam> Present: James_Graham
21:32:23 <heycam> Present: Cameron_McCormack
21:32:26 <heycam> Present: Anne_VK
21:32:31 <heycam> Present+ Ian_Hickson
21:32:36 <heycam> Present+ Yehuda_Katz
21:32:42 <heycam> Present+ Dominic_Cooney
21:32:48 <heycam> Present+ Ryosuke_Niwa
21:32:54 <heycam> Present+ Wonsook_Lee
21:32:56 <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:32:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
21:32:57 <heycam> Present+ Doug_Schepers
21:33:01 <heycam> Present+ Jacob_Rossi
21:33:08 <heycam> Present+ Roland_Steiner
21:33:18 <heycam> dg: the problem I see here is that there's a party that's interested in doing decorators
21:33:23 <heycam> ... the set of people working on it is not here
21:33:28 <heycam> ... and we're blocked on that
21:33:33 <heycam> ... you're saying "get interested in that problem"
21:33:38 <heycam> js: i'm fine with coming up with a proposal for it
21:33:46 <heycam> ... I think we'll need a proposal for it before implementing in Gecko
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21:33:55 <heycam> Present+ Cyril_Concolato
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21:34:05 <heycam> Present+ Wilhelm
21:34:07 <heycam> Present+ James_Graham
21:34:15 <heycam> Present+ Sylvain_Galineau
21:34:24 <heycam> Present+ maybe_some_other_people
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21:34:39 <heycam> Present+ Marcus_MSFT
21:34:54 <Ms2ger> Present+ Jonas_Sicking, Cameron_McCormack, James_Graham
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21:34:56 <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:34:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
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21:36:15 <Ms2ger> Present+ Alex_Russell, Dmitri_Glazkov, Sam_Weinig, Ted_OConnor, Travis_Leithead, James_Graham
21:36:28 <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:36:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
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