IRC log of htmlav on 2011-11-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-htmlav-irc
21:40:48 [marie]
rrsagent, make log public
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21:41:12 [marie]
TPAC11 Breakout Session: HTML5 AV Club
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21:41:35 [johnsim]
classically television was a live real-time broadcast medium, many watching same thing at once, optimized for showing lots of things to people at once
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21:41:48 [Vincent]
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21:42:33 [johnsim]
dvd players to ipods to personal video cameras - designed to help migrate to allow video to be shared with samller groups
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21:43:57 [johnsim]
use cases: 1) minimize latency - built with assumption over internet, 2) misused to classic television use case to everyone at once
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21:45:16 [johnsim]
Kevin: ... missing the two-way component; 3) previously recorded and edited (YouTube case).
21:46:00 [johnsim]
Kevin: classic - news - if you watch cable news, sequence of pre-cut stories; and repeat over time
21:46:19 [johnsim]
kevin: speech/radio/music radio equivalent - same thing
21:47:04 [johnsim]
Kevin: make transitions seamless- not at the script level but the browser level; buffer to hear, then play this, play this
21:47:41 [johnsim]
Kevin: and then i would contend - movie, long form drama, are this case, because they have a scene structure
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21:48:07 [johnsim]
Kevin; so you could define them as a play list of sequences.
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21:49:31 [johnsim]
Kevin: The other one not attended to in HTML5 video space. Is user generated content, and keep it, archival model, small number of viewers, compressing down to fit in the network
21:50:07 [johnsim]
Kevin: is this the right use case list and are they well represented in the HTML spec
21:50:51 [johnsim]
Mark Vickers: 1) only one spec so it has to work for everyone. 2) web and tv interested in all use cases, and interested in gaps
21:51:38 [johnsim]
Mark: play list is one we have on the list to talk about tomorrow
21:51:52 [johnsim]
Mark: play this sequence when the next one is done. Another need...
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21:53:21 [johnsim]
Mark: ... is adaptive streaming
21:53:46 [johnsim]
Kevin: the adaptive streaming, that is one of the specs almost there to satisfy legal worry not tech worry
21:54:32 [johnsim]
Mark: it is on a shared internet connection, and you don't have sufficient bandwidth, you choose one a lower bandwidth stream
21:55:17 [johnsim]
Kevin: download the damn thing and play it
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21:56:08 [johnsim]
Mark Watson: choose a bit rate commensurate to the bandwidth you have, or lower that meansyou can start playing it right away, but ... asdaptive straming is about fast start up and low buffering
21:56:46 [johnsim]
Kevin: doing at chapter chck points
21:57:06 [johnsim]
Mark: but you need 2-3 second points to do adaptive streaming correctly
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21:57:37 [johnsim]
Mark Vickers: even when we have full right to download we use adaptive streaming, because it will starts quicker
21:57:53 [johnsim]
Mark Vickers: techological leap ahead
21:59:52 [johnsim]
Mark Vickers: full download and adaptive streaming are well supported
22:00:42 [johnsim]
Eric: extremely difficultto the point of making it not always work well, adding the kind of API people are talking about...
22:01:06 [johnsim]
to do all the media loading and switching to do adaptive streaming, technical issues to make that work well that it cannot be resolved
22:02:14 [johnsim]
Eric: example, experimental API in Chrome to write javascript to load media and to the decoder, javascript that does all the adaptive stremaing, everything except decode the media
22:02:45 [johnsim]
Eric: i argue that it will be very very difficult to make that work as well as we want it to work, because there are some difficultor implossible tech issues that cannot be solved in the javascript layer
22:03:03 [johnsim]
Eric: for example, caching media, all the data that gets loaded by Javascript is stored in memory
22:03:38 [johnsim]
Eric: because of security constraints, cannot give javascript arbitrary access to the harddrive, so don't think it will be possible for the javascript to do sufficient caching of the media
22:04:13 [johnsim]
mark vickers; may not want to do everything in javscript.
22:05:01 [johnsim]
Eric: using now, load media from the server, figure out what byte ranges, feed it down to the decoder, and as long as you don't care about looping, allowing the user to seek back into content ...
22:05:16 [johnsim]
without going back to the server. I don't know how to make it more intelligent...
22:05:26 [johnsim]
Mark Watson: why couldn't it hold onto what it is given?
22:06:02 [johnsim]
Eric: doesn't have thelogic - which data is being loaded - how much should be kept in cache - the data is in Javascript
22:06:09 [johnsim]
Mark Watson: what kind of data?
22:06:24 [johnsim]
Eric: how user is viewing media, duration of the whole thing, likelihoo...
22:06:41 [johnsim]
Eric: when a seek happens...
22:07:21 [johnsim]
Mark: i see what you mean, are you assuming, w... a different model, provide the position in the global timeline, then it would have th emap of what media goes where...
22:08:08 [johnsim]
Kevin: stream orientation .. classic MPEG TS model. ...
22:08:43 [johnsim]
Mark W: the current experimental web kit model - i wouldn't propose as a product model, but question about what goes on in javascript and what goes on underneath
22:09:00 [johnsim]
Mark W: i imagine there is a smart division between those layers.
22:09:51 [johnsim]
Eric: don't doubt your sincerity, but we need to be careful about adding something here because you have something there (in existing adaptive streaming solutions)
22:10:48 [johnsim]
Kevin: 2-way conversation - we hae a spec heading towards that (webRTC) and viewed as a different thing from adaptive streaming world.
22:11:49 [johnsim]
Kevin: the other, distinct case, where i accept adaptive streaming makes more sense, near live, sports game, (1-way near live) that may be a case...
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22:13:18 [johnsim]
Kevin: ... the key difference is a close enough ... 1 way near live, two hour phone-in type thing, want to be listening in near real-time
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Clarke: tradeoff bandwidth and computational power
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22:15:33 [johnsim]
Mark K: inband is one way, also out of band multiple tracks, no way of saying which one is best...
22:15:44 [johnsim]
Eric: handled by existing spec
22:16:46 [johnsim]
Kevin: the archival case, interesting, one case we have had - how do we deal with codecs, patent things, hardware things, and what i am wondering...
22:17:45 [johnsim]
Kevin: ... is there space for archival, non-patented, non-compressed, is it worth building up use cases for playing back lightly compressed video, as well as focusing on the 264/webM view ehere everhthing ...
22:17:52 [johnsim]
kevin: ... is rather strongly compressed.
22:18:18 [johnsim]
Eric: i have thought about it - two things - i don't think it is worht putting in the spec. i don't think i tis useful to take up space in the spec...
22:19:06 [johnsim]
Eric: ... what i do think is useful... so... if not in the spec the right way to handle it is to put pressure on browser vendors to support it.
22:19:37 [johnsim]
Kevin: the principle that once you have made the media we want to keep it around... somewhat related to that is the input side of things...
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22:20:10 [johnsim]
Kevin: which is in the spec but no one spupports it, file, particularly on mobile, audio and video ... but the browsers cannot import them
22:20:34 [johnsim]
Kevin: ... is it a matter of grumbling to people...
22:20:46 [johnsim]
Eric: and it could imply give me an interface to take a new photo
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22:21:02 [johnsim]
Frank O: quality of implementatino issue, not a matter of changing spec?
22:21:17 [johnsim]
Kevin: at the moment the spec says you will get images...
22:21:33 [johnsim]
Kevin: Write a test suite and grumble...
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22:22:38 [johnsim]
Kevin: what else would be nice to do with AV that we cannot do now?
22:23:00 [johnsim]
Mark Watson: protection of UGC - you want your family to view in the cloud, and have them be able to play it back
22:23:33 [johnsim]
Eric: as people outside this room, save it like an image. Conrol key, audio or video and save it to the local system. if we enable that, some way for content owners to opt out of that
22:23:53 [johnsim]
Kevin: saveable flag that defaults to YES
22:24:08 [johnsim]
Kevin: and then you need to be able to set it
22:24:22 [johnsim]
Kevin: user editability - ask for at all?
22:24:33 [johnsim]
Kevin: once i can capture, can i trim it.
22:24:44 [johnsim]
Mark: there is a media fragment API?
22:25:06 [johnsim]
Eric; not the same thing. only attributes on the URL, to change it you have to change the source
22:25:28 [johnsim]
Mark V: URL to point into a fragment, but it doesn't allow you to play from this point to that point because each is a separae URL
22:27:12 [johnsim]
Kevin: ... plays into the editing question as well.
22:28:00 [johnsim]
Mark Watson: tiny one. presently, you can find out from media element how much was buffered, but if the player is inteliignet enough to stop playback, it knows how much...
22:28:33 [johnsim]
mark: needs to buffer, so it could show a progress bar, which is a better user experience than a spinning "wait" symbol.
22:29:01 [johnsim]
Mark: right now, i cannot do a progress bar.
22:30:03 [johnsim]
Kevin: scrubbing (dragging through to find where you want because there are no chapters)
22:30:13 [johnsim]
Kevin is that a diff mode or payers problem
22:30:45 [johnsim]
Mark: if VOD rather than live stream, knows how long and whatis available and get pull only those things to create whatever user interface you want
22:31:13 [marie]
rrsagent, make log public
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/02-htmlav-minutes.html marie
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