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18:17:12 <spoussa> http://www.w3.org/wiki/API_Design_Approaches_and_the_Rationales_for_Them
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18:21:29 <Soonho> Bryan are presenting this materials http://bkaj.net/w3c/TPAC-2011-API-Design-Patterns.html
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18:23:41 <DKA> Data Minimization Draft: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/APIMinimization.html
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18:25:29 <dsr> DKA: introduces his interest in data minimization as a basis for improving privacy.
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18:26:32 <dsr> The idea is to limit the information passed to a web application to the minimum needed.
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18:27:36 <dsr> It arguably makes it harder for API designers, but is well worth it.
18:27:56 <bryan> Marcus from MS
18:28:09 <dsr> Marcus (Microsoft) we should look at who is the audience for the API
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18:28:48 <dsr> DKA: same audience as for the DAP APIs, i.e. web API designers.
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18:29:29 <dsr> Raman (Google) the best approach is hands on and getting practical experience with an API.
18:30:05 <dsr> Bryan: early experience will ensure that you know that a given API design is effective.
18:30:15 <dsr> Should we require this for W3C APIs?
18:30:23 <dsr> Answer: yes
18:31:11 <dsr> Charles (Opera) you need to be prepared to revisit your assumptions as you get feedback from a wider audience.
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18:32:30 <dsr> Marcus (another one) many engineers may not have a background in privacy, and a design guide can be helpful.
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18:33:13 <dsr> Privacy by design, security by design.
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18:33:45 <mbodell> Michael (Microsoft) Audience important, but you can have multiple audiences, declarative natural for some, but JS natural for others
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18:33:57 <dsr> Bryan: how to we keep such design guidelines live and relevant.
18:34:34 <dsr> Should the design guidelines be mandated by the Process?
18:34:48 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/ApiCheckList API Checklist
18:34:51 <dom> s/API C/DAP API C/
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18:35:06 <dsr> Dom (W3C) it is way to early for that.  We have a small collection of guidelines in DAP WG.
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18:36:41 <dsr> Marcus: there hasn't been any road testing for the DAP WG API checklist, so I agree with Dom that it is too early to nail things down.
18:36:54 <dsr> Bryan: one key aspect is whether the API is extensible.
18:38:14 <dsr> Jean-Claude: I would like to hear from other people in the room.
18:39:18 <dsr> If we don't standardize the higher level APIs someone will later come along with a library that sets a de facto standard (as in JQuery)
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18:40:04 <dsr> APIs should be usable. There is a big range of where you aim for in the range from low level to high level.
18:41:15 <dsr> There isn't a standard for promises (?)
18:41:36 <dsr> as an alternative to call backs
18:42:01 <dsr> Robin: we could do that in W3C fairly quickly.
18:42:46 <dsr> perhaps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futures_and_promises
18:46:13 <dsr> Raman: looking at the patterns of usage for APIs can help with understanding what level of API is appropriate.
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18:47:24 <dsr> If the imperative code switches to your high level API, you are on the right track
18:47:30 <dsr> s/code/coder/
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18:48:35 <dsr> What's the direction when it comes to asynchrous in main UI thread versus synchronous in a worker thread?
18:49:19 <dsr> Apple bans synchronous APIs on the UI thread.
18:50:35 <dsr> We should minimize the frequency of requring user input, but when we do we need to support a non-blocking approach.
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18:51:29 <dsr> If we have to provide asynchronous APIs for the UI thread, why should we bother to also define synchronous APis for worker threads?
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18:51:56 <dsr> If the async calls are too hard we need to rethink the level of the API.
18:52:18 <fjh> markus speaking
18:52:41 <dsr> Marus (Microsoft) we should be careful with general statements such as only async interfaces. The context matters.
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18:52:53 <darobin> s/Marus/Markus/
18:53:20 <dom> dom: async apis being to hard to develop for is also a symptom of what we discussed earlier re lack of promises in ecmascript
18:54:22 <dsr> Robin: I think on the whole that doing both async and sync APIs is a bad idea.
18:55:17 <dsr> Libraries can help to deal with complexities of async APIs.  Unless there are compelling reasons, we should avoid synchronous APIs.
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18:56:59 <dsr> We can learn from developer experience and the kinds of wrappers/libraries people come up with and refine our APIs
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18:57:52 <dsr> Lower level APIs are easier to reach consensus on as the issues are clearer. Higher level APIs can take a long time to mature,
18:58:55 <dsr> Dom: what can we do to invite developer feedback at an early enough stage?\
18:59:41 <dsr> Robin: a JQuery standards group has formed with the aim of feedback experience in standards.
18:59:54 <dsr> We should reach out to those guys.
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19:01:17 <dsr> Bryan: summarises the discussion from his notes on the flip chart
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