IRC log of css on 2011-10-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:00:00 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: There are tons of features - it's a very early stage draft - so we don't know that yet.
00:00:22 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: I just didn't expect such a massively positive reaction to it as we got.
00:00:38 [TabAtkins_]
szilles: So this falls into "careful what you promise, they might ask for it".
00:01:36 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: So I'm specifically asking for devs to evaluate implementability as soon as possible on that feature.
00:02:03 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: What's in :matches() is absolutely implementable, since it's just syntactic sugar.
00:02:11 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: So we don't need feedback on that.
00:02:15 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: (At least, not immediately.)
00:02:28 [BradK]
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00:02:29 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: It's the subject indicator that needs feedback.
00:02:39 [dbaron] is the Mozilla bug on :subject
00:02:43 [TabAtkins_]
tantek: What about :has()?
00:03:07 [arno]
indicator -> selector
00:03:10 [TabAtkins_]
tantek: It's in jQuery, it's been adopted and liked.
00:04:16 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I specifically went away from that because it's harder to ipmlement.
00:04:29 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: Simple useful example: "label:has(:checked) + p"
00:05:04 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: You can use :matches() and the subject indicator to do the same.
00:05:27 [Bert]
(Tab's example doesn't work, does it? The p is not a sibling of the label, but a sibling of the labels's parent.)
00:07:05 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: "label:matches(? > :checked) + p"
00:07:14 [kermit]
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00:08:06 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: [explains her example further]
00:08:18 [dbaron]
Clearly we should just use the ‽ operator or the ¡ or ¿ operator.
00:08:35 [tcelik]
please no more symbols with strange meanings
00:09:01 [dbaron]
ok, how about the 美 symbol :-)
00:11:04 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: The spec should say that using the subject indicator twice in a selector makes it invalid.
00:12:36 [TabAtkins_]
tantek: I still think :has() is a superior syntax. If you want to put restrictions on its functionality to match the subject indicator, fine, but use the better syntax.
00:13:09 [dbaron]
Let's avoid Dr. Streetmentioner's 1001 Tenses for Time Travelers
00:13:16 [szilles]
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00:13:27 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: The interesting cases that :has() allows are precisely those that are much harder to implement.
00:14:12 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Selectors *never* go down multiple branches when matching, right now.
00:14:21 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Tab's example requires going down one branch and then going down another.
00:15:04 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: The XPath syntax may be eaiser here, where it has an explicit ancestor selectors.
00:15:19 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: It's less hard to implement, than that it's hard to track dynamic changes.
00:16:10 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: For example, if you're selecting (in Tab's example), when the input is checked or not, you need to quickly figure out which elements need to be restyled, without redoing the entire page's layout.
00:17:10 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLVED: Publish Style Attribute PR as soon as we have the impl reports.
00:17:36 [anne]
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00:22:38 [TabAtkins_]
Topic: GCPM
00:22:45 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: I'd like to talk about what's new.
00:22:55 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: Most of this is based on page flaots, but also paged overflow.
00:23:12 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: You can tell an element to overflow into pages.
00:23:21 [TabAtkins_]
tantek: So it's a manual <marquee>?
00:23:53 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: The other thing from GCPM is page floats. These photos [in his slides] are floats spanning multiple columns.
00:24:15 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: It works even better on a tablet.
00:24:40 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: So basically we can create an e-reader.
00:25:16 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: Paged layouts have been used forever in real life. Also in lots of apps, like flipboard.
00:25:25 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: [shows an example of paged wikipedia]
00:25:31 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: It has a lot of nice properties.
00:25:44 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: It avoids cut lines on the top and bottom of the screen when scrolling, frex.
00:25:59 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: Some things were *designed* for paged presentations, like children's book.
00:26:57 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: There's tons of gutenberg text, for example, that nobody will read because it's not paged.
00:27:08 [TabAtkins_]
[shepazu objects]
00:27:23 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: We've ipmlemented it in Opera, and have a shadow DOM for it.
00:27:39 [TabAtkins_]
s/shadow DOM/OM/
00:27:51 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: [shows example of some presentation showing the current page, etc.]
00:28:09 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: It's very simple. The basic setup is with a 'paged' value for overflow, and the nav is done through an at-rule.
00:28:21 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: How does it print?
00:29:00 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: Quite well. Opera doesn't print well, but if you pipe it to a good printing tool, it works well.
00:29:29 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: When you're doing pagination of an element in the page, what happens when you print the whole page? Where's the overflow?
00:29:56 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: [shows the code example to set it up]
00:30:19 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Since the overflow property on <html> is propagated to the viewport, you don't need the height:100% there.
00:30:36 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Last time, we were thinking of having 'paged' be a value for overflow-style.
00:30:54 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: Yes, 'overflow' is a shorthand. The value can go anywhere, it doesn't matter right now.
00:31:21 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: You can distinguish between pages being side-by-side, or below each other.
00:31:46 [TabAtkins_]
tantek: In Japanese, you get pages right to left.
00:31:53 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: So you also have to check writing-mode, not just direction.
00:32:13 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: Right. If I say "paged-x", I take whichever logical direction is horizontal.
00:32:40 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: The scrollbar gives nice discoverability of how much content is left. Is that still there?
00:32:56 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: Could there be a property that adds an indicator of the expected flow left?
00:33:12 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: "If there's another page, put an indicator there"
00:33:22 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: There's an example in the spec with "paged-x-controls" for that, I guess.
00:33:36 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: How does this interact with @page rules?
00:34:01 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: Right now, our impl doesn't pay attention. In the future, if you set the viewport to be overflow:scroll, it'll interact.
00:34:38 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: If a line runs over the page (in the direction perpendicular from the main scrolling direction), it just gets cut (you can't see it in any way).
00:34:42 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: Same as with multicol.
00:35:05 [fantasai]
Tab: These us multicol, so you have columns: 3 or whatever.
00:35:19 [fantasai]
Tab: If you're using columns, the overflow columns are to the side.
00:36:23 [fantasai]
fantasai: The columns are not overflowing the box. They're overflowing the page, and go to the next page. It just happens that the next page is physically placed to the side rather than below in this case.
00:36:53 [fantasai]
howcome: you see this in tablet apps, that do this repeatedly
00:37:16 [fantasai]
howcome: This is a very simple sketch.
00:37:32 [fantasai]
howcome shows page shift effects
00:37:51 [fantasai]
Brad: I think that should be up to the UA, so the UA can provide a consistent interface
00:38:11 [fantasai]
glazou: I don't see it as only for tablets. It's a wonderful spec to match the effects of switching slides in a powerpoint
00:38:21 [fantasai]
glazou: I think the primary usage of that will be slideshows, much more than tablet browsing
00:38:32 [fantasai]
molly: possibly, but I can see designers really loving it
00:38:47 [fantasai]
glazou: You can define navigation between 2 pages in same document, or between 2 documents.
00:39:05 [fantasai]
glazou: One issue we have with slideshows to dissolve one slide and show the next slide; we don't have the next slide yet when we load the document.
00:39:19 [fantasai]
molly: I want to make the case for this and not just slide shows.
00:39:30 [fantasai]
molly: Anyone read the NYT? Exactly what people are doing in NYT reader
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00:39:40 [fantasai]
molly: it's being adopted a lot esp by older users who are not computer-savvy
00:40:00 [fantasai]
howcome: Met with NYT last week, who are doing all this in JS. They are saying please save us from the javaScript
00:40:47 [fantasai]
howcome: I'm really euphoric about this. I think it's the best thing that's happened in a long time.
00:40:51 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Since the Romans!
00:41:04 [fantasai]
howcome: It's so simple. No new properties, just new values on existing properties
00:41:15 [fantasai]
howcome: And then it's the at-page tihng, which attaches to link elements in HTML
00:41:28 [fantasai]
howcome: here we tie thse relationships to the directions with an at-rule
00:41:36 [fantasai]
howcome shows example of @navigation using link-rel() notation
00:41:54 [fantasai]
howcome: If we want to compete with the apps here, I think we need to provide this form of interaction
00:42:07 [fantasai]
plinss: I think it's great on the root element
00:42:14 [fantasai]
plinss: When its on the child element, and you turn the page, what happens?
00:42:24 [fantasai]
howcome: Here it's on the child element
00:42:27 [fantasai]
plinss: Now hit print.
00:42:31 [fantasai]
howcome: I see your point.
00:43:25 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think you should print the page over again with the next child page until you run out of content in the child
00:43:32 [fantasai]
fantasai: Would solve lots of problems with fixed positioning
00:43:42 [fantasai]
fantasai: Although it would be weird if you had more than one paged child
00:44:26 [fantasai]
Tantek: Shouldn't print starting at what you're looking at, should print the entire document.
00:44:41 [fantasai]
Tantek: Wrt slideshows, it's horrible because then you don't get anchors to the slides
00:44:57 [fantasai]
tantek: If you do it with anchors tags, HTML5 history, fine. I've built that.
00:45:21 [fantasai]
Tantek: But you can't do dynamic paging with anchors
00:45:42 [fantasai]
plinss: It's the same problem of scrolling down to a page and wanting to point someone at that point.
00:46:06 [fantasai]
Tantek: yes, but the expectation is different: if I'm on a page, I expect to send a link to the page. If I'm in a scrolling document, I expect a link to that page to point at the top
00:46:39 [fantasai]
00:46:49 [fantasai]
howcome: If I'm at the end of the document, it goes to the next one
00:47:00 [fantasai]
Doug: How do you know what's the next document?
00:47:09 [fantasai]
howcome: with HTML <link> tags
00:47:18 [fantasai]
howcome: you tie them to the navigation like this
00:47:50 [fantasai]
Doug: As you go to a new page with a fragment identifier, you update to that fragment identifier. That solves Tantek's problem.
00:48:00 [fantasai]
Tantek: Multiple navigation with a child?
00:48:07 [fantasai]
jdaggett: If you have 2 elements that are paginated
00:48:38 [fantasai]
Tantek: You'd have to scope per fragment the navigation rules if you have a paged child inside a paged document
00:49:09 [fantasai]
glazou: Just use a page break there. Define a page break after your sldies
00:49:23 [fantasai]
howcome: For slides that's fine. But for a newspaper article you don't want all the newspaper articles in one document.
00:50:01 [fantasai]
howcome explains url-doc()
00:50:27 [fantasai]
glazou: I think you shoudl resurrect selectors on the right-hand side. This is too specific to HTML. Should be able to do this in any kind of markup
00:50:40 [fantasai]
glazou: Should be able to retrieve URLs from link anywhere in the prose.
00:50:51 [fantasai]
glazou: Smells like selector on right-hand side of property
00:51:08 [TabAtkins_]
We have an existing function that can be used here - element()
00:51:22 [fantasai]
glazou: Looks like attr(link[rel=index], href)
00:51:53 [fantasai]
Doug: there's nothing HTML-specific about link relationships
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00:52:13 [fantasai]
glazou: Next step that you are going to take Håkon is showing multiple pages into one single viewport
00:52:21 [fantasai]
glazou: To be able to select 5th page directly for example.
00:52:31 [fantasai]
glazou: So I suggest you think about this andput it in your proposal
00:53:07 [fantasai]
howcome: I'm going ot show you a book I printed in CSS.
00:54:21 [fantasai]
howcome: This is a replication of {...} from 1879. Each word on exactly the same page.
00:55:00 [fantasai]
Bert: If I swipe right to the next document, expect that going left brings me back. But that depends on the navigation styles in the other document
00:55:27 [fantasai]
Steve: I think it's a mistake to put the navigation in the style here. If you want to link together a bunch of document, should have some kind of manifest.
00:55:46 [fantasai]
plinss: this is outside the scope of CSS, but yes there's a use case for some kind of manifest that expresses these relationships
00:57:07 [fantasai]
fantasai: The links among documents can be expressed in HTML. The bit that's out-of-scope is mapping those to navigation gestures
00:57:45 [fantasai]
00:57:51 [fantasai]
plinss: It should be next and previous
00:58:03 [fantasai]
howcome: That's already in the HTML, don't need the CSS.
00:58:25 [fantasai]
Tantek: Request to add a photo of the folks that were here 7 years ago
00:59:08 [fantasai]
Steve: I think there's a difference between what happens in a document, which you specify wiht paged-x and paged-y, and what happens across documents, where I don't think it's the role of CSS to say. But getting to the end of a document is an event, and you could say what happens when you get to that event.
00:59:22 [fantasai]
glazou: I have a lot of comments on your document.
00:59:34 [fantasai]
howcome: Email probably works better if we want others to participate as well.
00:59:48 [fantasai]
howcome: So this is most of what's new in the GCPM. Maybe continue tomorrow?
00:59:51 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
01:00:09 [fantasai]
book was Digte by Henrik Ibsen
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04:28:35 [arronei]
fantasai: you mentioned the template that I should use for the IR. Can you point me to it?
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fantasai: ping
05:50:39 [fantasai]
arronei: pong
05:51:29 [fantasai]
05:51:47 [fantasai]
arronei: sorry, was studying gradient syntax
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day one (zero?) minutes:
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15:52:11 [Ms2ger]
RRSAgent, please make the minutes
15:52:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Ms2ger
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15:53:57 [Ms2ger]
Present: Luke McPherson (Google), Shane Stevens (Google), Steve Zilles (Adobe), Molly Holzschlag (Invited Expert), Mark Silverman (Adobe), Deepa Subramanian (Adobe), Bert Bos (W3C), Alan Stearns (Adobe), Arno Gourdol (Adobe), Brad Kemper (Invited Expert), Tab Atkins (Google), Elika Etemad (Mozilla), Daniel Glazman (Disruptive Innovations), Koji Ishii (Invited Expert), John Daggett (Mozilla), David Baron (Mozilla), Arron Eicholz (Microsoft), Sylvain Galineau (Mi
15:53:57 [Ms2ger]
crosoft), John Jansen (Microsoft), Hkon Lie (Opera), Peter Linss (HP), Chris Lilley (W3C), Vincent Hardy (Adobe), Rossen Atanassov (Microsoft)
15:54:33 [Ms2ger]
RRSAgent, please make the minutes
15:54:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Ms2ger
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15:55:21 [Ms2ger]
Present: Luke McPherson (Google), Shane Stevens (Google), Steve Zilles (Adobe), Molly Holzschlag (Invited Expert), Mark Silverman (Adobe), Deepa Subramanian (Adobe), Bert Bos (W3C), Alan Stearns (Adobe), Arno Gourdol (Adobe), Brad Kemper (Invited Expert), Tab Atkins (Google), Elika Etemad (Mozilla), Daniel Glazman (Disruptive Innovations), Koji Ishii (Invited Expert), John Daggett (Mozilla), David Baron (Mozilla), Arron Eicholz (Microsoft)
15:55:27 [Ms2ger]
Present+ Sylvain Galineau (Microsoft), John Jansen (Microsoft), Hkon Lie (Opera), Peter Linss (HP), Chris Lilley (W3C), Vincent Hardy (Adobe), Rossen Atanassov (Microsoft)
15:55:29 [Ms2ger]
RRSAgent, please make the minutes
15:55:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Ms2ger
15:55:47 [Ms2ger]
That's better
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16:06:37 [Bert]
Topic: Round of introductions
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16:07:49 [fantasai]
16:07:49 [Bert]
Topic: Values and units
16:08:21 [fantasai]
16:08:42 [Bert]
fantasai: Issue 193 is about removing <fraction> and <grid>
16:08:56 [Bert]
... Not sure they are actually used anywhere.
16:09:03 [Bert]
... Apart from unstable modules.
16:09:17 [Bert]
... If necessary we can add them back in Level 4
16:09:36 [Bert]
Florian: Sounds reasonable. No hidden issues?
16:09:53 [Bert]
Markus: If another spec needs it?
16:10:07 [Bert]
fantasai: Some modules already define their own units.
16:10:22 [wangsi-wei]
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16:11:07 [Bert]
RESOLVED: remove <fraction> and <grid> (ISSUE-193)
16:11:16 [Bert]
fantasai: ISSUE-195 is next
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16:11:26 [Bert]
... In CJK
16:11:35 [Bert]
... fonts typically have 1em advance.
16:11:41 [Bert]
... We have a ch unit.
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16:12:08 [Bert]
... Compressed CJK fonts do not advance 1em.
16:12:27 [Bert]
... Dow we want a new unit for CJK fonts advance?
16:13:00 [Bert]
Florian: Is font is proportional?
16:13:13 [Bert]
fantasai: No, for compressed, but still monospaced fonts.
16:13:36 [Bert]
JohnD: Don't think we should add it.
16:13:46 [dsinger]
…thinks it might be good to have a FAQ explaining the difference between the working group, the interest group, and the community group...
16:13:48 [Bert]
... It is not going to help you.
16:14:09 [Bert]
fantasai: Our feedback was that conpressed fonnt should be set solid,
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16:14:24 [Bert]
JohnD: how do you get the value?
16:14:30 [Bert]
fantasai: Same way as ch unit.
16:14:50 [Bert]
JohnD: Did you ceck that fonts actually give that info?
16:15:19 [Bert]
Koji: [didn't hear]
16:15:28 [Bert]
... Definition in Opentype.
16:15:40 [Bert]
... "if this table then use that"
16:15:45 [fantasai]
s/conpressed fonnt/a line consisting only of ideographic characters/
16:15:57 [Bert]
JohnD: I'm sceptical.
16:16:08 [Bert]
... Would like to see a post on www-style, with use-case
16:16:39 [Bert]
[A monk or ghost or... enters the room]
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16:18:13 [Bert]
ACTION koji post use-case on www-style. Then we'l look at actual fonts.
16:18:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-386 - Post use-case on www-style. Then we'l look at actual fonts. [on Koji Ishii - due 2011-11-07].
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16:18:33 [Bert]
Topic: Positioned layout module
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16:19:04 [Bert]
arronei: [shows module on screen]
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16:19:26 [Bert]
arronei: Updated with feedback fromlast ftf
16:19:32 [arronei]
16:19:33 [Bert]
... See also the issues list
16:19:58 [sylvaing]
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16:19:59 [Bert]
... ... Still need to discuss some things with Tab.
16:20:14 [Rossen]
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16:20:21 [Bert]
... Today topic is page positinion and centering.
16:20:37 [Bert]
... Page position is absolute, but looks a bit like fixed.
16:20:51 [Bert]
... Mainly meant for Regions.
16:21:09 [Bert]
... A ddeply nested regions can still be positioned relative to page.
16:21:25 [Bert]
... If not in a region, position is relative to intial CB.
16:21:36 [Bert]
... Possible problems with overlap in that case.
16:21:58 [Bert]
Howcome: Hard to understand without examples.
16:22:30 [Bert]
arronei: Regions create new initial containing blocks.
16:22:55 [Bert]
howcome: Can you put something in a position on page 3, e.g.?
16:22:57 [shan]
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16:23:11 [Bert]
... 'position: page' with offset.
16:23:29 [Bert]
fantasai: Overlap if you are not on the page you expected to be on.
16:23:44 [Bert]
arronei: Really focused on regions.
16:23:57 [Bert]
fantasai: Don't ike that fallback behavior.
16:24:09 [Bert]
howcome: Yes, that is a problem.
16:24:20 [Bert]
... Page floats don't have that problem.
16:24:34 [Bert]
... Next float autom. goes beneath previous one.
16:24:58 [Bert]
fantasai: page pos. seems to break too easily, and very badly.
16:25:24 [Bert]
[dicsussion about cases]
16:25:46 [Bert]
fantasai: At leats with foats everythign remains readable, visiible.
16:25:59 [dino]
RRSagent, this meeting spans midnight
16:26:03 [Bert]
arronei: I hear some concerns. What is general feel?
16:26:27 [Bert]
Peter: Some cases you may not care so much, e.g., create a watermark.
16:26:46 [Bert]
arronei: Shall we pull it out then, for now?
16:27:00 [Bert]
Steve: For named regions, can you use the name?
16:27:34 [Bert]
fantasai: abs. pos is not the greatest thing with pagination.
16:27:47 [stearns]
s/named regions/named pages/
16:27:56 [Bert]
... This sulution is broken enough to need redesign.
16:28:19 [Bert]
arronei: Do you already have a better solution?
16:28:24 [Bert]
fantasai: Not really.
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16:28:41 [Bert]
arronei: We need something eventually.
16:29:05 [Bert]
Steve: We'll need some way to make a seq. of pages with each their own structure.
16:29:18 [Bert]
... As we said already with howcomes' demo yesterday.
16:29:39 [Bert]
Tab: Something like float's ability to reposition itself.
16:30:04 [Bert]
fantasai: important is that it doesn't break horribly if things aren;t exactly as expected.
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16:30:46 [dbaron]
(various): Changes to the page size, margins, or font size can cause things that were positioned on different pages to be positioned on the same page, so that they overlap.
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16:30:50 [Bert]
arronei: If you adjust the margins on a page, you may easily get two elet on the same page where you didn't have them before.
16:30:55 [fantasai]
fantasai: This will break if you either paginate differently or display in scrolled media
16:31:03 [Bert]
16:31:17 [Bert]
Alex: Anything available that would work?
16:31:27 [Bert]
howcome: page floats!
16:31:58 [Bert]
alex: Still need to get something in top right if you want it in top right.
16:32:44 [Bert]
[forgot name]: confusion between clearing and positioning.
16:33:17 [Bert]
... Position page is not necessarily the feature at risk. It lacks clearing, yes, but if we solve that, we don't have the fallback pb anymore.
16:33:57 [Bert]
... Do you propose to pull the feature to solve positionin or solve clearing?
16:34:03 [Bert]
Florian: both.
16:34:29 [Bert]
Alex: Exclusion, positioning and floats all needed, 3rd part not done yet.
16:34:49 [Bert]
howcome: page floats works, in spec and tested in implementation.
16:35:01 [Bert]
arronei: find middle ground.
16:35:28 [Bert]
Tab: floats don't overlap, that is the big difference.
16:35:54 [Bert]
fantasai: My issue is that something that is desgned such that the fallback nearly always fails, is not good.
16:36:09 [Bert]
... We can leave it in ED, but shoul dnot be like this in WD.
16:36:40 [Bert]
Alex: Want to be able to
16:36:49 [Bert]
... EGneneral solution for floats is complex.
16:36:58 [Bert]
... We eant that, but want excat algos.
16:37:07 [Bert]
... postiioning to page is very important.
16:37:14 [Bert]
... Needed for pages with exclusions.
16:37:24 [Bert]
... Some of their logic will have to be inscripts.
16:37:40 [Bert]
... Very hard to do without positioning to page.
16:38:01 [Bert]
... [something]
16:38:11 [Bert]
Tab: only for scripts, you say?
16:38:16 [Bert]
Alex: Probably.
16:38:33 [Bert]
fantasai: So that indicates to me the model is broken and you need a better one.
16:38:51 [fantasai]
Alex^: This will only work well with multiple positioned items if you have script
16:39:01 [Bert]
Tab: We should not right something that is broken just because we don't have time for the better one yet.
16:39:28 [Bert]
arronei: We should think about clearing, not decide it right now, but think.
16:39:38 [Bert]
... Can put it in Editor's Draft.
16:39:55 [Bert]
Steve: Put in the ED what tje issue is, and what arguments are,
16:40:08 [Bert]
fantasai: and look for other solution for same use cases.
16:40:15 [Bert]
arronei: I can put that in.
16:40:31 [Bert]
Brad: What does page float not solve that this does?
16:40:35 [Bert]
Steve: yes.
16:41:11 [Bert]
Alex: something that is positioned and does not collide with orther things is a page float.
16:41:28 [Bert]
howcome: We should find use cases and solve the pb.
16:41:44 [Bert]
Brad: So this is complementary to page floats?
16:41:59 [Bert]
Alex: In the future we need page floats that can be positioned abs. on a page.
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16:42:09 [Bert]
... Don't worry that we will have that some time in the future.
16:42:28 [Bert]
... We want more, but what we have is good enough for now.
16:42:56 [Bert]
Howcome: We want the use cases to be solved, but we also need the fallback. Cannot rely on scripts to solve the fallback.
16:43:03 [Bert]
fantasai: Good summary!
16:43:21 [Bert]
Alex: We have no media selector to distinguish scroll from paged.
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16:43:55 [Bert]
Alex: Let's make floats work.
16:44:12 [Bert]
arronei: Yes, but we need to move this spec. There aren't many issues left.
16:44:36 [fantasai]
Tab^: It's not about paged vs scrolled. Even within paged media, this breaks if you change the pagination
16:44:56 [Bert]
ACTION arronei : details issues further and come up with use cases and solve them better (for values and units) and pull page positionin out of WD.
16:44:56 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - arronei
16:45:05 [Bert]
ACTION arron : details issues further and come up with use cases and solve them better (for values and units) and pull page positionin out of WD.
16:45:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-387 - : details issues further and come up with use cases and solve them better (for values and units) and pull page positionin out of WD. [on Arron Eicholz - due 2011-11-07].
16:45:21 [Bert]
arronei: Need to handle the cases were there is overlap.
16:45:28 [Bert]
arronei: About center positioning:
16:45:33 [Bert]
... Very old request.
16:46:09 [Bert]
... It is now similar to block-level non-replaced centering with auto margins.
16:46:25 [Bert]
... Margin: auto wouldn't work here.
16:46:49 [Bert]
... There is a calculation in the spec.
16:47:24 [Bert]
... Set 'position: center'
16:47:50 [Bert]
Alex: bottom positioning is a problem.
16:48:16 [Bert]
fantasai: This allows us to position out of flow obkects, but stil not in-flow objects.
16:48:23 [Bert]
... And that is more important.
16:48:33 [Bert]
Daniel: Agree.
16:48:44 [Bert]
Tab: Can use flex box, or grid.
16:49:27 [Bert]
dbaron: Proposal is reasonable for positioning.
16:49:43 [Bert]
... Could add something about auto margins, not defined currently.
16:49:59 [Bert]
Tab: horizontal only, or vertical, too.
16:50:06 [Bert]
dbaron: Symmetric.
16:50:15 [Bert]
fantasai: No, it is not symmetric.
16:50:37 [Bert]
arronei: We'll keep this part in the draft.
16:51:14 [Bert]
dbaron: you can center vertically with auto margins, in level 2, as long as height is fixed.
16:51:53 [Bert]
[discussion about case with height: auto]
16:52:07 [Bert]
arronei: Should work for auto height, so I'll correct that.
16:52:43 [Bert]
dbaron: For centering in each dimension you need to set four properties and set height.
16:53:08 [Bert]
arronei: Some other issues in the spec:
16:53:19 [Bert]
... No ruby values.
16:53:32 [Bert]
... Not sure what a positioned ruby works.
16:53:46 [Bert]
dbaron: Do the spec need to redefine CSS 2.1 section?
16:54:00 [Bert]
... Can't you just say it amends CSS 2.1 for these cases?
16:54:15 [Bert]
Tab: Do we want to write delta specs?
16:54:33 [Bert]
Chris: We decided to refer to CSS 2.1 from level 3 modules.
16:54:40 [Bert]
Tab: Yes, but not the same thing.
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16:55:18 [Bert]
Chris: We decided that level 3 can refer to CSS 2.1 and to other modules.
16:55:43 [Bert]
Steve: A module is self-consistent. It refers to other specs, of course.
16:56:20 [Bert]
fantasai: Modules replace CSS 2.1, also to make tetx more readable.
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16:56:43 [Bert]
... This spec should not define display types not un CSS 2.1.
16:57:01 [Bert]
... Flex Box defines its own display types and their interaction with this spec.
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16:57:19 [Bert]
arronei: So I only need to refer to 2.1 dusplay types here. OK.
16:58:07 [Bert]
dbaron: You need to redienf the term "absolutely positioned" to include center aned fixed.
16:58:12 [dbaron]
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16:58:47 [dbaron] (positioned)
16:59:08 [Bert]
arronei: Next is insect-rect.
16:59:14 [fantasai]
16:59:20 [Bert]
dbaron: Yes, we resolved to add that some ten years ago :-)
16:59:42 [Bert]
arronei: So I think we're OK with this part.
17:00:06 [Bert]
arronei: Last issue is stacking context and opacity and transforms.
17:00:16 [Bert]
... Couldn't find any coclusions about that.
17:00:45 [Bert]
dbaron: Both opacity and transform on elts without z-index, than act as if z-index is 0.
17:01:05 [Bert]
... If it is positioned and has a z-index, than use that.
17:01:23 [Bert]
... Otherwise do as if z-index is 0.
17:01:37 [Bert]
arronei: Implementations seem to do that, indeed.
17:01:44 [Bert]
... How about transforms?
17:01:55 [Bert]
dbaron: Believe they ar ethe same.
17:02:06 [Bert]
arronei: I will add that to this section.
17:02:17 [Bert]
... Can we then move this to WD?
17:02:28 [Bert]
daniel: I think we should. Objections?
17:02:32 [Bert]
[no objections]
17:02:35 [dbaron]
see for inset-rect() :-)
17:02:43 [Bert]
RESOLVED: publish positionong as WD.
17:03:08 [Bert]
daniel: One remaark: you cannot actually search for "issue" in the draft.
17:03:14 [Bert]
... Can that be fixed?
17:03:30 [Bert]
fantasai: I think it is a bug in browsers that they don't find generated text.
17:03:46 [Bert]
daniel: But we need a way to find issues now.
17:03:55 [vhardy]
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17:04:45 [Bert]
Topic: Animations
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17:05:23 [Bert]
[discussion about agenda, break, joint meetings...]
17:05:52 [Bert]
Daniel: yesterday already some issues.
17:06:40 [Bert]
Dean: Most editorial issues were addressed already. So we can today talk about difficult issues.
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17:07:14 [Bert]
sylvaing: What happens when an anim is cancelled: is there an event?
17:07:27 [Bert]
dean: You meand, ended before it coempleted
17:07:39 [Bert]
Dean: What would you do at that point?
17:07:45 [Bert]
... Just a notification?
17:07:51 [Bert]
... I'd be OK with that.
17:08:12 [Bert]
sylvaing: Need to put in one place all the things that can happen on cancellation.
17:08:22 [Bert]
Dean: Give me an action to add an event?
17:08:40 [Bert]
... Display: none is tricky.
17:09:35 [Bert]
sylvaing: People expect that properties continue to change, even if you don't see anything.
17:09:47 [Bert]
... But you can achive that with a delay.
17:10:14 [Bert]
Dean: Computed style of a property exists even when display is none, doesn't it?
17:10:27 [Bert]
dbaron: starting an animation is result of computing a value.
17:10:38 [Bert]
... We don't define *when* you comnpute style.
17:10:46 [Bert]
... Just assume it happens at proper time.
17:11:05 [Bert]
... Authors depend on display: none not have performance effect.
17:11:19 [Bert]
... But changing this will have such a performance effect.
17:11:34 [Bert]
Shane: not so much impact.
17:11:46 [Bert]
... Only look at a selectors that apply.
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17:12:05 [Bert]
sylvaing: Animation delay solves it.
17:12:26 [Bert]
dbaron: Not so sure about shane's performance assessment. There's also memory, and inheritance.
17:12:45 [Bert]
shane: It doesn't fundamentally change behavior of 'display: none'
17:12:58 [Bert]
dbaron: It doesn't change for authors who don't have animations.
17:13:08 [Bert]
... But it doesn change where thare are animations.
17:13:13 [Bert]
shane: Yes, in some cases.
17:14:20 [Bert]
[discussion about impl. architecture and impat, cscribe didn't udnerstand]
17:14:36 [Bert]
17:14:58 [Bert]
Chris: The author expect that hidden stuff is still up to date.
17:15:07 [Bert]
sylvaing: Use delay.
17:15:14 [Bert]
Tab: Cannot know delay in advance.
17:15:33 [Bert]
Dean: Calculate time line in advance for part of the treee
17:15:50 [Bert]
... In some future version of the spec we can define that animations can be aligned.
17:16:02 [Bert]
... Problem that we cannot do that now.
17:16:30 [Bert]
... But we can still say things in current spec so that implementations don't have to compute for elements with display: none.
17:16:41 [Bert]
... No events.
17:17:09 [Bert]
... You could use script and set delays as well.
17:17:21 [Bert]
... What happens if you animate 'display: none' in a key frame?
17:17:34 [Bert]
Tab: As soon as we can animate keywords, you mean.
17:17:45 [Bert]
Dean: Yes, that is not yet in spec, but will add it.
17:18:03 [Bert]
... I propsoe display: none means element is not animated.
17:18:22 [Bert]
Luke: What does it mean?
17:18:42 [Bert]
Dean: Elements with display: none and anumation property, we don't even look at animation.
17:19:21 [Bert]
Luke: So as author I first need to set to block, than add animation, so GetComputedStyle(), then set display again.
17:19:31 [Bert]
Dean: Not sure I understand.
17:19:46 [Bert]
... Just set display: inline or whatever and animate.
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17:20:26 [Bert]
... The rules for starting an animation should include that animation starts as soon as display changes from 'none'.
17:20:36 [Bert]
Shane: Could get interesting.
17:20:53 [Bert]
... Change in display may trigger an animation.
17:21:11 [Bert]
Dean: Is that any worse than applying animation styles? Performance hit?
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17:22:12 [Bert]
arronei: Problem if middle key frame has 'display: none'
17:22:20 [Bert]
17:23:00 [Bert]
brad: Say I want to move from left to right in 10 sec, and after 5 secs I set display.
17:23:56 [Bert]
dbaron: So question is if display becomes none in middle of animation and then becomes block again, does animation continue? Gecko does that.
17:24:26 [Bert]
Brad: So I can stop animation that way and get my use case?
17:25:02 [Bert]
[Scribe didn't understand]
17:25:21 [Bert]
Florian: Spec doesn't really say it has to be that way.
17:25:55 [Bert]
Tab: Say 'display: none' is set during animation.
17:26:06 [Bert]
dbaron: We recompute style while the animation is running.
17:26:27 [Bert]
Tab: It won't restart until the display: none goes away?
17:26:35 [Bert]
... Mental model is not obvious.
17:26:51 [Bert]
Florian: Simpelr to say display: none doesn't animate?
17:27:09 [Bert]
sylvaing: We still need to define
17:27:55 [Bert]
Shane: Should we look at implications for perf. of running in display: none?
17:28:05 [Bert]
Markus: Also look at battery life.
17:28:33 [Bert]
Dbaron: Animation can stop while display: none is in effect, you still need to detect that.
17:28:51 [Bert]
Luke: No need to do that in real time.
17:29:02 [Bert]
dbaron: Yes, need to do that at each tick.
17:29:17 [Bert]
Luke: What if element itself is removed?
17:29:24 [Bert]
dbaron: We remove the animation as well.
17:29:44 [Bert]
Tab: It doens't have any CSS anymore at hat point, that is a distinct case.
17:30:19 [Bert]
dbaron: We explicitly stop animations when an element moves in the DOM.
17:31:20 [Bert]
... We have the code to preserve animations during display: none' preceisley to deal with the DOM issues.
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17:31:46 [Bert]
... Harder to do if an ancestor has 'display:none' instead of the elet itself.
17:32:43 [Bert]
Tab: Model is really confusing, except if you undertsnad browser kernels...
17:33:13 [Bert]
Tab: Simplest is that animations keep running, even if not displayed.
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17:34:48 [Bert]
[scribe missed some]
17:35:16 [Bert]
Dean: Take a spinner, and you set 'display: none' to hide it and expect it to start from zero when it reappears.
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17:35:36 [Bert]
Tab: [explains an solution]
17:35:58 [Bert]
... Instead of putting anim. on spinner. set it on spinner.shown.
17:36:08 [Bert]
... No restarting involved.
17:36:27 [Bert]
... Just add/remove the class when needed.
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[some discussion not minuted during netwok outage]
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17:42:05 [Bert]
Molly: When displauy is none, animation should not apply.
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17:42:13 [Bert]
... That is easy to explain.
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17:42:40 [Bert]
sylvaing: But what if display is set to none in middle of key frame?
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17:42:48 [Bert]
molly: Keep consistent.
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17:43:08 [Bert]
Florian: Set none at 50% just kills the animation, that is consisytent.
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17:43:20 [ChrisL2]
Forclarity,I prefer to modify what Molly suggested - when display is none, CSS animation must not apply
17:43:44 [ChrisL2]
(because smil-based animation does apply when display=none)
17:43:58 [Bert]
Steve: display triggers a relayout, can use visibility hidden instead.
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17:44:18 [Bert]
... So letting display: none turn off anim seems reasonable.
17:44:47 [Bert]
Markus: Steve's solution is good.
17:45:28 [Bert]
dbaron: So I hear consensus that display: none breaks animations, stops them.
17:46:12 [Bert]
RESOLVED: Two new co-editors Sylvain and David
17:46:15 [dbaron]
RESOLVED: CSS animations do not start or continue running on elements that are display:none or inside display:none elements
17:46:39 [Bert]
s/David/ for Animations module.
17:47:47 [Bert]
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i/Present:/Scribe: Bert/
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18:07:36 [Bert]
[Joint meeting with WebApps, see their minutes]
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18:08:10 [glazou]
see #webapps
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18:08:15 [Bert]
[See #webapps]
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18:19:38 [Ms2ger]
ACTION Tab to write proposed example text for CORS
18:19:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-388 - Write proposed example text for CORS [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2011-11-07].
18:20:59 [glazou]
Ms2ger: you're in the webapps room ?
18:21:06 [Ms2ger]
18:21:12 [glazou]
18:21:12 [Ms2ger]
The IRC room, that is
18:21:16 [glazou]
18:21:29 [glazou]
not physically at tpac
18:21:39 [Ms2ger]
No, physically I'm sitting in my bedroom :)
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18:23:09 [glazou]
Ms2ger: please don't file action items for CSS WG
18:23:34 [Ms2ger]
18:23:37 [glazou]
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18:34:25 [Bert]
rrsagent, pointer?
18:34:25 [RRSAgent]
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18:35:13 [Bert]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:35:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Bert
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18:37:02 [Bert]
s/Sylvain and David/Sylvain and David for Animations module/
18:37:36 [Bert]
18:38:16 [Bert]
18:38:36 [Bert]
18:39:10 [Bert]
18:39:33 [Bert]
s/at hat point/at that point/
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19:14:36 [dbaron]
[11am-noon was a joint meeting, scribed in #webapps]
19:14:36 [fantasai]
RRSAgent: make logs public
19:14:42 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
19:14:47 [fantasai]
Topic: Animations (cont)
19:14:56 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Issue is what if a property is not specified in all keyframes.
19:15:04 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Also what if one keyframe has an invalid value
19:15:14 [Bert]
Topic: animations [cont'd]
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19:15:41 [fantasai]
dbaron: What happens in gecko when a property is not valid in all keyframes: every animations animates all properties that are in any keyframe of the animation, over the entire duration of the animation
19:16:06 [fantasai]
dbaron: The animation interpolates each property across the keyframes from the keyframes in which the property was present.
19:16:11 [fantasai]
dbaron gives an example
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19:16:50 [fantasai]
smfr: Imagine exploding keyframes into keyframes per property. For keyframes in which the property isn't specified, you ignore them.
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19:17:31 [fantasai]
dbaron: The fun case there, and one I'm not sure we agree on, is what happens if some of the values are value syou cannot interpolate between
19:17:31 [TabAtkins_]
sylvaing: So if I had an animation with keyframes at 0%, 50% and 100%, and 'width' appeared only in 0% and 100%, it just animates between those two values and ignores 50% (for 'width')
19:17:45 [fantasai]
dbaron: In Gecko, if there are such values, I drop the property from animatio completely
19:18:19 [fantasai]
dbaron: So if you animate from width: 100% to width: 50% to width: auto, I say you can't animate between 50% and auto, so I'm not going to animate 'width' at all
19:18:50 [fantasai]
Luke: If you have, say, an abspos div and it's specified left in the initial state and right in the final state, you can't actually do an animation for that thing.
19:18:59 [fantasai]
smfr: same problem as not being able to animate t/from auto
19:19:16 [fantasai]
dbaron: Another issue here from testcase on www-style last week (from Lea?)
19:19:27 [fantasai]
dbaron: In some cases, the computed value of one prop depends on computed value of another property
19:19:40 [fantasai]
dbaron: If your animation is multiple properties, what basis values are you using?
19:20:04 [fantasai]
dbaron: So in Gecko, I didn't really think about this when implementing, so what I implemented is that it ignores other properties in the animation
19:20:08 [fantasai]
dbaron: That's probably wrong
19:20:24 [fantasai]
dbaron: If we want this to work right, for some definition of right, things can get pretty complicated quickly
19:20:30 [fantasai]
dbaron: So I'm not sure what to do there.
19:20:40 [fantasai]
example was animating stuff in ems and font-size (?)
19:21:02 [fantasai]
Luke: Has anyone considered doing this in computed space instead of precomputed?
19:21:08 [fantasai]
Tab, dbaron: Happens over computed values
19:21:17 [mmielke]
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19:21:25 [fantasai]
Luke: Instead of being mes and whatever, then you'd want these things to be final pixel values
19:21:30 [fantasai]
Luke: Instead of ...
19:21:47 [fantasai]
dbaron: You want to animate used values instead of computed values. That's hard because it depends on layout. Would rather not go there.
19:22:09 [fantasai]
dbaron: I'd be more interested in solving those problems by making things like calc(50% + 2px + auto) work
19:22:15 [fantasai]
dbaron: or calc(auto * 0.5)
19:22:32 [fantasai]
dbaron: Then it's much easier to solve these problems
19:23:06 [fantasai]
smfr: theoretically you could lay out at the final state to find what 'auto' means
19:23:13 [fantasai]
dbaron: The problem there is that might depend on other things that animate
19:23:24 [fantasai]
smfr: So does Gecko explicitly not do animations that involve 'auto'?
19:23:36 [fantasai]
smfr: In WebKit we treat 'auto' as 0
19:23:48 [dglazkov]
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19:23:51 [fantasai]
smfr: That makes things like left -> right work
19:24:10 [fantasai]
Luke: So if you have these calc() expressions, you can defer layout
19:24:33 [fantasai]
dbaron: Yes, you can do the animation on computed values and then you do the layout with the interpreted calc() expression
19:24:42 [tantek]
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19:24:50 [fantasai]
dbaron: background-position has a problem, too -- it needs calc
19:25:18 [fantasai]
Shane: It's pretty much impossible to animate gradients without deferring layout
19:25:46 [fantasai]
Shane: For gradients, you can't generate and interpolate a computed state. You need to do layout
19:26:01 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think we have a lot of agreement on this. We need to write it up.
19:26:16 [fantasai]
dbaron: a) How the loop over properties works: properties, the keyframes
19:26:29 [fantasai]
dbaron: b) be clear that interpolation happens on computed values (think we say that already)
19:26:39 [fantasai]
dbaron: c) Issue on what to do with non-interpolable pairs in the animation
19:27:50 [fantasai]
fantasai: dropping it entirely seems like a better idea. More straightforward, and if we later figure out how to interpolate it and people add it, it'll either work or not work (in olde rbrowsers): you don't get this halfway jumpy thing
19:28:32 [fantasai]
smfr: If the property is missing from a 100% keyframe and the animation is looping, you could look for the next value in the loop rather than going back to the base value
19:28:35 [ChrisL]
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19:29:06 [fantasai]
fantasai: so if you only have a property specified in one keyframe
19:29:22 [fantasai]
smfr: It would go from base value to that value, stay at that value, and then come back down to the base value once you stop animating
19:29:32 [fantasai]
sylvaing: next issue is on transition property
19:29:43 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Idea was that you could set a duration for all properties
19:30:02 [bradk_]
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19:30:05 [fantasai]
sylvaing: and then override that separately
19:30:12 [fantasai]
syAnd we talked about the none case. We said that if you have 'none' in the list of properties, that kills everything before it
19:30:20 [fantasai]
dbaron: Right now none and all can't be part of a list
19:30:23 [fantasai]
sylvaing: We agreed to fix that
19:30:27 [fantasai]
dbaron: Missed that thread
19:30:42 [fantasai]
dbaron: Seems like it makes more sense for all than none. Maybe fix it for all and not for none?
19:31:00 [fantasai]
Dean: So you can't put none in a list, but all you can
19:32:00 [fantasai]
fantasai: so, can you put all anywhere in the list?
19:32:04 [fantasai]
sylvaing: It will override anything before it
19:32:24 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: So 'all' just happens to be a really big shorthand
19:33:03 [fantasai]
fantasai: Reminds me of a request for blocking inheritance. Could do "all: initial" for that
19:34:00 [fantasai]
plinss: Anything else on animations?
19:34:00 [dbaron]
RESOLVED: 'all' is allowed within lists in 'transition-property' (but 'none' is not). Which item wins works like for shorthands, so it's silly to use 'all' other than at the start of the list, but it's not forbidden.
19:34:19 [fantasai]
dean: We had an issue on the animation cancel event -- an event that fires when an animation gets cancelled
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19:34:37 [fantasai]
dean: The event fires on the element. But what if the element is removed?
19:34:47 [fantasai]
dean: Do you fire on its parent? Or not fire the event?
19:35:01 [fantasai]
dbaron: I'm inclined it should fire on the element or it shouldn't fire
19:35:15 [fantasai]
dbaron: I'm not sure firing an event on something not in the document is something to do
19:35:40 [fantasai]
Tab: Not sure it's a problem. Your target phase is weird. You have events firing at DOM non-elements all the time
19:35:52 [fantasai]
dbaron: I'd prefer to ask a DOM Events expert; I'm not one
19:36:20 [fantasai]
dean: If we do decide to fire on an element that's no longe rin the DOM, then it obviously can't bubble up to its parent.
19:36:36 [fantasai]
dean: Typically people want to listen for events on an ancestor
19:36:41 [fantasai]
dean: I'm tempted to say it doesn't fire
19:36:54 [fantasai]
Tab: I'm not certain if I want to object yet.
19:37:18 [Bert]
s/longe rin/longer in/
19:37:22 [dsinger]
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19:37:26 [fantasai]
Dimitri says something about not getting an event on an event listener
19:38:00 [fantasai]
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19:38:12 [fantasai]
AlexRussell: In webkit [...]
19:38:27 [fantasai]
AlexRussell says something about bubbling being useful...
19:38:48 [fantasai]
Tab: Ms2ger says that firing a DOM event on a disconnected element should be fine
19:39:01 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Fire the event on the disconnected element
19:39:12 [mollydotcom]
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19:39:14 [fantasai]
plinss: Does anyone want to check with other DOM Event experts on that?
19:39:22 [fantasai]
dbaron: I'll double-check with smaug as well
19:39:30 [fantasai]
plinss: Anything else?
19:39:35 [dbaron]
ACTION dbaron to write up description of how animations of properties only in some keyframes work
19:39:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-389 - Write up description of how animations of properties only in some keyframes work [on David Baron - due 2011-11-07].
19:39:46 [fantasai]
sylvaing: One interesting piece of feeback from ppl internally using them to dev applications
19:39:53 [dbaron]
ACTION dbaron to check with smaug about firing DOM events on disconnected elements
19:39:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-390 - Check with smaug about firing DOM events on disconnected elements [on David Baron - due 2011-11-07].
19:39:59 [fantasai]
sylvaing: They're trying to animate inset box-shadows to outset box-shadows, and it doesn't work
19:40:12 [fantasai]
dean: We could do that..
19:40:13 [Bert]
19:40:20 [Bert]
19:40:24 [fantasai]
smfr: I almost did that at one point, but gave up because it seemed a little tricky
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19:40:50 [fantasai]
smfr: What do you do with spread, if it's nonzero?
19:41:14 [fantasai]
dean: I still can't work out how you'd do it.
19:41:46 [fantasai]
fantasai: You'd have to bring everything down to zero, then bring it all back up on the other side
19:42:57 [fantasai]
dbaron: Could you pretend that instead inset, you use negative numbers?
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19:44:27 [fantasai]
fantasai: You could define this, but it wouldn't be simple: have to bring the offsets and spread and blur radius down to zero and bring them back up. Do you do that simultaneously, one after the other?
19:44:53 [fantasai]
dbaron: If someone comes up with a way to represent all these intermediate states
19:45:05 [fantasai]
plinss: You want to make it look like raised above, then you're sinking it down
19:45:24 [fantasai]
dbaron: You have to model it with a light source
19:45:41 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: The shadows are not necessarily representable by a single light source
19:46:04 [fantasai]
dbaron: Assume the light source is a point at inifite distance, and then only modify the distance fo the box to the canvas
19:46:18 [fantasai]
dean: With a special model of physics, we can come up with a model for hte animation of inset to outset box-shadows. :)
19:46:32 [fantasai]
smfr: Any more serious issues?
19:46:43 [dbaron]
assume the light source is 45 degrees from vertical
19:47:19 [Ms2ger]
19:47:41 [fantasai]
Seems we will consider animating inset to outset box-shadows iff someone comes up with a proposal of exactly how that's supposed to work.
19:48:18 [fantasai]
plinss: They all have to hit zero at the same time or its going to look stupid
19:48:34 [fantasai]
dbaron: I could try writing it up, but not sure it's a high priority
19:48:41 [ChrisL]
so the question is hopw to simultaneously animate three properties throuh zero and out the other side without a discontinuity?
19:48:43 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think you have more important things on your to-do list :)
19:48:47 [fantasai]
szilles: +1 to taht
19:48:51 [fantasai]
19:49:03 [dbaron]
I think it's relatively straightforward to break down each shadow as something created by an infinite light source and a box elevation.
19:49:13 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Will consider animating inset to outset box-shadows iff someone posts a proposal of exactly how that's supposed to work.
19:49:16 [dbaron]
assume the infinite light source is at 45 degrees for both endpoints
19:50:27 [Bert]
text-combine-horizontal property
19:50:35 [fantasai]
Topic: Regexp matching and values of text-combine
19:51:12 [fantasai]
Florian: We rejected regexp matching in selectors, but you have to do similar for text-combine
19:52:01 [fantasai]
Florian is asking for the ability to make pseudo-elements out of something that matches a regexp
19:53:12 [fantasai]
jdaggett: yes, it's a contextual role, but it's far more finely scoped
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19:53:32 [fantasai]
fantasai: When you're dealing with text-combine, you're doing it as you're evaluating the text. It's not part of selector matching.
19:53:44 [fantasai]
Florian: Just a question, not an issue.
19:54:45 [Bert]
fantasai: from the spec: " If the content contains any element boundaries this is treated as ‘text-combine-horizontal: none’ on the element and any descendants."
19:55:36 [Bert]
... It's atheoretical box, as soon as you notice a boundary you abort constructing it.
19:55:52 [Bert]
Tab: OK, clear what is supposed to happen, still have editorial reservations.
19:56:06 [fantasai]
<br type=lunch>
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20:33:18 [Mike5]
tantek, we talking about Web Intents in WebApps WG room
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20:59:53 [anne]
you realize that ends up in the DOM as <br> right?
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21:00:42 [fantasai]
yeah, doesn't matter
21:00:45 [fantasai]
it's one break
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21:01:23 [anne]
you forgot the namespace!
21:01:31 [fantasai]
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21:01:37 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
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21:02:51 [fantasai]
Topic: WebApps/CSSWG Joint Meeting Resolution
21:03:02 [sylvaing]
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21:03:04 [fantasai]
jdaggett: We resolved to make the font loading @font-face same-origin by default
21:03:10 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Two actions on me
21:03:40 [fantasai]
ACTION jdaggett: Reword how same-origin is described to talk only about HTTP
21:03:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-391 - Reword how same-origin is described to talk only about HTTP [on John Daggett - due 2011-11-07].
21:04:08 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Wouldn't this be an issue for implementations?
21:04:50 [sylvaing]
my question was whether implementations used CORS or From-Origin; it seems we made a decision on using CORS
21:05:11 [fantasai]
fantasai: So if I linked a font on a different server via ftp, that works around the same-origin restriction?
21:05:26 [JohnJansen]
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21:05:36 [fantasai]
ACTION jdaggett: Talk with Anne about how to reference the same-origin things "correctly"
21:05:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-392 - Talk with Anne about how to reference the same-origin things "correctly" [on John Daggett - due 2011-11-07].
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21:06:10 [fantasai]
Vladimir: ...
21:06:20 [fantasai]
jdaggett: This resolution will eliminate the need for an at-risk rule.
21:06:28 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Will there ever be a connection between this and From-Origin
21:06:34 [fantasai]
Florian: It's CORS
21:06:54 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Once the action items are complete, there will be another point at which we can rehash if need be
21:06:57 [hober]
I didn't think we made a decision to use CORS specifically, only to have a same-origin restriction by default in @font-face
21:07:34 [fantasai]
jdaggett: So do we have a resolution?
21:07:42 [florian]
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21:08:20 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: @font-face will be same-origin by default with the use of CORS to relax.
21:08:44 [mollydotcom]
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21:09:06 [fantasai]
for HTTP
21:09:27 [fantasai]
Topic: Flexbox
21:09:27 [szilles]
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21:09:53 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I have a couple outstanding issues I need to edit, but we don't need to worry about -- just reslve corner cases with obvious answers
21:10:14 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Other issue: ATM in the spec flex-order takes a <number>, whereas z-index takes an <integer>
21:10:34 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: So we can either make flex-order <integer> or z-index <integer> to make consistent
21:10:49 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Prefer <number> because it makes it easier to insert things in between later
21:11:04 [dbaron]
s/or z-index <integer>/or z-index <number>/
21:11:14 [fantasai]
ChrisL: what's the impact on z-index of changing it?
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21:11:46 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: z-index currently takes <integer>, so this would be expanding it.
21:12:00 [fantasai]
smfr: I'm a little uncomfortable with changing z-index
21:12:15 [fantasai]
smfr: I see a lot of devs setting z-index to maxint -1
21:12:34 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Would the crazy things ppl do be affected by this change?
21:12:37 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I don't think so
21:12:42 [fantasai]
Arron: We don't know.
21:12:46 [fantasai]
Molly: I'm afraid.
21:13:30 [fantasai]
Molly: Designers don't understand CSS. They just hack around.
21:13:42 [fantasai]
Molly: What is going to happen if something changes there?
21:13:51 [ChrisL]
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21:13:58 [fantasai]
smfr: Whether it breaks depends on the implementation. Opera had a 16-bit implementation at one point
21:14:16 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: floats are above our minimums
21:14:24 [fantasai]
smfr: You can't represent maxint accurately as a float
21:15:05 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: We were talking about required minimum ranges for <integer>
21:15:18 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: will almost certainly be below maxint
21:15:47 [fantasai]
Florian: Possible ppl are writing floats into their z-index, and their pages currently work only because it gets thrown out
21:16:39 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: If we believe that's actually a problem, that there is significant usage in the wild of invalid z-index values, then we have a problem
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21:16:48 [fantasai]
Markus: what do we lose by not having <number>?
21:17:01 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: It's mildly more convenient to use <number>.
21:17:14 [fantasai]
Steve: Is the benefit of analyzing this worth the benefit?
21:17:52 [fantasai]
fantasai: you can use the BASIC approach and space your numbers by 100
21:18:15 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Make flex-order be <intger> and later evaluate whether to change flex-order and z-index to <number>
21:18:32 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: flex-order as <integer>
21:18:45 [fantasai]
fantasai: On another note, why do we have flex-order and z-index?
21:19:56 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I don't care very much, slightly prefer flex-order
21:20:58 [Bert]
('nav-index' is also called "index," not "order.")
21:21:29 [fantasai]
Bert mentions tabindex in CSS
21:21:32 [fantasai]
21:22:23 [mollydotcom]
re: z-index: request clarification to early scribed comment: "Many designers don't understand CSS, they use properties that we define and understand, but they create hacks to work around implementations or to address a feature they don't know how else to do"
21:22:38 [fantasai]
21:22:43 [tantek]
hearing 'nav-index', /me puts down the TPAC planning wiki page and hurries back to CSS WG
21:23:08 [fantasai]
Steve: I think 'index' is slightly better because you have to think about what it means, and if you read it you have to look it up
21:23:22 [fantasai]
Steve: I think order implies something it isn't
21:23:25 [jwir3]
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21:23:46 [fantasai]
Molly: Many people already understand z-index anyway, and in their vocabulary, so it's consistent anyway
21:24:15 [fantasai]
holding off until alex is around
21:24:34 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Last thing is to request WD publication. Last draft is from 2009
21:26:27 [tpod]
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21:27:37 [fantasai]
dbaron: One reason I hesitate to rename flex-order to flex-index is because boxflexgroupthing might be flex-index
21:27:43 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Oh, you mean like flex-group
21:27:47 [fantasai]
dbaron: I guess flex-group is fine
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21:28:46 [Tom]
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21:28:50 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Publish css3-flexbox as WD pending flex-index/flex-order issue resolution
21:29:33 [kimberlyblessing]
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21:29:52 [fantasai]
alex: flex-order changes processing order, not just visual order so I think it should be flex-order
21:29:55 [tcelik]
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21:30:08 [fantasai]
alex: did you go over min-width?
21:30:14 [fantasai]
alex: 8, 10, 12
21:30:41 [fantasai]
alex: abspos children
21:30:51 [TabAtkins_]
21:31:29 [fantasai]
alex: We had an issue about issue of abspos elements creating an empty, which is discoverable when justifying
21:31:47 [fantasai]
alex: There is no reasonable way to place that hypothetical static position
21:32:48 [fantasai]
alex: Place where it would have been is inline content, and that gets wrapped in an anonymous ocntainer, and that box is empty.
21:33:03 [fantasai]
alex: But justifying with flex-pack shows this placeholder
21:33:45 [fantasai]
alex: Positioning a flex-item without a placeholder is tricky
21:33:53 [fantasai]
fantasai: Why not define the static position as coinciding with the flexbox
21:33:54 [fantasai]
21:34:47 [fantasai]
alex: The only thing we don't like is the behavior with flex-pack: justify, and I don't mind it being bad for this case since it makes everything else work better
21:35:49 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: So we're embracing the placeholder concept.
21:35:58 [fantasai]
Ojan: I don't like that
21:36:31 [fantasai]
Ojan: Weren't you proposing to point its static position as being in the middle of the flex-pack space
21:37:06 [fantasai]
dbaron: that's a lot of code to special-case an edge case
21:37:20 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: abspos elements leave behind placeholders
21:37:23 [fantasai]
and all that implies
21:37:43 [Tom]
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21:38:10 [fantasai]
21:38:24 [Rossen]
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21:38:25 [fantasai]
Straw poll: flex-index vs flex-order
21:38:36 [fantasai]
jj: order
21:38:38 [fantasai]
alex: order
21:38:40 [fantasai]
howcome: absain
21:38:43 [fantasai]
koji: absain
21:38:46 [fantasai]
markus: order
21:38:48 [fantasai]
tantek: abstain
21:38:50 [fantasai]
steve: index
21:38:52 [fantasai]
alan: order
21:39:17 [fantasai]
florian: abstain
21:39:19 [fantasai]
bert: no opinion
21:39:23 [fantasai]
?: index
21:39:36 [fantasai]
brad: abstain
21:39:38 [fantasai]
smfr: order
21:39:42 [fantasai]
dean: abstain
21:39:54 [shan]
soonbo_han: index
21:39:58 [fantasai]
shane: order
21:40:01 [hober]
hober: order
21:40:02 [fantasai]
luke: abstain
21:40:15 [fantasai]
kim, molly, rossen: order
21:40:18 [fantasai]
dbaron: order
21:40:21 [fantasai]
jdaggett: abstain
21:40:23 [fantasai]
sylvaing: order
21:40:25 [fantasai]
arronei: order
21:40:33 [fantasai]
tab: order
21:40:37 [fantasai]
fantasai: index
21:40:48 [fantasai]
glazou: I don't care
21:40:51 [fantasai]
ChrisL: order
21:40:57 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: flex-order
21:41:12 [fantasai]
21:41:31 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: This is to consider z-order axis
21:41:34 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: as a flex order
21:41:41 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I believe we shouldn't do anything about this right now
21:42:05 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: If we want to address stacked layout, which I think we should, we should consider it as another display or part of grid or something else. Don't have all the primitives we really want
21:42:37 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: One thing you might want to do, frex, if you have items of different size, you might want to size to the size of the current item, or size to the size of the largestitem so you don't resize as you swap them
21:42:48 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: That's a control that you don't have otherwise
21:42:56 [fantasai]
dbaron: What's the use case for size based on the one on top?
21:43:13 [fantasai]
dbaron: Gecko implements this, and we've never gotten a request for size based on the one on top
21:43:53 [fantasai]
Rossen: size otp sounds like a way of deferring layout of the other things, is that your use case?
21:43:56 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Partially
21:44:01 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Have a use case for sizing according to top
21:44:23 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I've seen tab layouts where your headings or whatever are on the side, and the contents of your page are the stack
21:44:52 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: You want thema ll to fill the widths. But if you have a tall item and some short items, you don't want the short items to have a long scroll bar
21:45:11 [fantasai]
dbaron: Fair enough, but that doesn't seem like flexbox.
21:45:49 [fantasai]
Markus: If we add this we'll have another way to do stacking in addition to z-index and grid
21:46:11 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: There's still further things that distinguish this from plain flexbox that make it not a good idea to combine
21:46:29 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Flexbox's alignment primitives are flex-align and flex-pack, which are perpemndicular/ parallel to the flex axis
21:46:59 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: If you have stack, then you have two orthogonal axes, and it's not clear which is align and which is pack
21:47:25 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: If we were going to tack it onto one of our layout models, grid might be better. not sure if it's the best idea, but semes better than this
21:47:28 [fantasai]
Alex ...
21:47:35 [fantasai]
Alex: If you take a grid and give it several items, it will give you a stack.
21:47:49 [Bert]
(Template Layout once had 'display: card | card-container | card-tab'. Came from a request from Device Independent WG.)
21:48:15 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: One final thing that makes me hesitant, I'm not sure if we ant to address in CSS, but if you have tab layout then you prolly want to show the tabs themselves.
21:48:31 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Auto-generated, linked up manually, some old proposals, but don't know how
21:48:41 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: in JavaScript it's easy, but may wnat to address it in CSS
21:48:56 [fantasai]
Alex: HTML5 control using script and grid and add to HTML5 as necessary
21:49:09 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: One problem with script is, the tabs should be accessible.
21:49:21 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Most developers will not and do not in practice hit all of the accessibility goals we want there.
21:49:39 [fantasai]
Alex: it needs to be an HTML5 control
21:50:04 [fantasai]
fantasai: Couldn't you use fragment IDs?
21:50:22 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: If we address this automatically somehow via CSS, I doubt we want to tie this into z-index.
21:51:01 [Bert]
( is example using fragment IDs (and :target, thanks to Daniel))
21:51:14 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: problem with using z-index is that you want to just deal with the flex items, not everything else on the page
21:51:26 [BradK]
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21:51:29 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Not addressing stack axis in Flexbox
21:51:56 [fantasai]
21:52:12 [fantasai]
alex: Do 'before'/ 'after' apply to direction based on writing mode or based on flex order?
21:53:01 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Currently flex-align: start aligns to the beginning of the flex order
21:53:21 [fantasai]
alex: flex-align: after goes after the first line (towards the second)
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21:55:42 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: logical keywords are flex-relative, not writing-mode-relative, when used in flexbox
21:55:51 [fantasai]
21:56:10 [florian]
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21:56:24 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Let's say it says width: flex(1)
21:56:31 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: And you give it a min-width of 50px.
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21:56:39 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Should this start the flex calculations from 50px?
21:56:52 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Or should it start from zero and then check/correct if necessary?
21:57:11 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: This is important if I want to give each item flex of 1, but set a minimum for readability
21:57:21 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: If you make it so that everything starts from the minimum width, this breaks
21:57:37 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Everyone will start at their min-width, then they'll flex, and then they'll be different size
21:57:55 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: However, that method is easier
21:58:05 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: However I think it is a bad enough behavior that it should be changed
21:58:13 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I'm specifying exactly when min/max are taken into account
21:58:26 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Think we should make sure min/max are handled after flexing.
21:58:37 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think I agree
21:59:07 [fantasai]
dbaron: ...
21:59:24 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: The passes are limited and cheap. It's multi-pass layout, but not full layout. Will converge super-fast.
21:59:51 [fantasai]
Alex: Don't think it's possible to avoid multiple returns, but very hard to come up with situation that requires more than one return.
22:00:38 [fantasai]
dbaron: Assuming we know how to resolve intrinsic sizes in block dimension
22:00:47 [fantasai]
but that's another problem entirely
22:01:05 [dbaron]
but one I think we should try to solve in this spec
22:01:21 [fantasai]
Alex: Let's say you have flex of 1000px, and your max-content is 2000px and min-content is 500px
22:01:28 [fantasai]
Alex: min-width is specified to 100 or 0, doesn't matter
22:01:45 [fantasai]
Alex: which of min-width will go to the min, is it going to be min-content or min-width?
22:02:42 [fantasai]
alex: I think what's supposed to happen, if width is 'auto' then we should look at min-content width
22:02:51 [fantasai]
alex: If width is specified, then we should not look at min-content width.
22:03:34 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think it makes sense? I think it's consistent with what Tab proposed.
22:03:58 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: We're working on an implementation, and you're working on an implementation, so we should be able to figure out what's sane
22:04:25 [fantasai]
alex: Question is in what cass do we consult min-content, if ever
22:04:29 [fantasai]
22:04:39 [fantasai]
alex: Default value of min-width is 0
22:04:43 [fantasai]
alex: so it's always specified
22:04:53 [fantasai]
do we need an 'auto' value for min-width?
22:05:07 [fantasai]
alex: ...
22:05:19 [fantasai]
alex: Could say minimum is max(min-width, min-content)
22:05:28 [fantasai]
alex: Problem with that is you can never have a box that is smaller than min-content
22:05:59 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Could we say by default things can shrink to zero, and if you want min-content as a minimum, you say min-width: min-content
22:06:06 [fantasai]
Ojan: Seems non-flexbox specific
22:06:16 [fantasai]
alex: Different because flexibility depends on the width
22:06:35 [fantasai]
Ojan: To be consisten with
22:06:49 [fantasai]
OjaN: if you put min-width: 100px and width: 300px then you'll get 300px
22:06:59 [fantasai]
dbaron: Those don't conflict. If you swap them you get 300px
22:07:29 [fantasai]
Rossen: The problem is that if you want to achieve parity with ehavior of table cells floaters abspos or anything else that does shrink-to-fit,
22:07:36 [fantasai]
Rossen: min-content is always respected in these types of layout
22:07:48 [fantasai]
Rossen: flex in this case doesn't respect the minimum content
22:08:10 [fantasai]
Rossen: If you have some characters, and default value of min-content is 0, flex will currently shrink all the way down to zero
22:08:23 [fantasai]
Rossen: might or might not be what you want
22:08:38 [vhardy]
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22:08:53 [szilles]
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22:09:45 [fantasai]
fantasai: How about changing the initial value of 'min-width' to 'auto'
22:09:46 [fantasai]
22:10:13 [fantasai]
Rossen: When would you not want min-content?
22:10:23 [fantasai]
alex: I have a huge long unbreakable line, don't want to follow that
22:10:49 [fantasai]
steve: Wouldn't you want the same thing in a table?
22:11:11 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: It's easy to do what we want for flexbox. Still means tables are confusing, but everybody else works the same way.
22:11:33 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: If you want min-width of 0, set it to zero. If you want min-width of min-content, say so.
22:12:59 [Mike5]
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22:13:08 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Effective min-width on flexes is a limitation after the initial flex resolution, not while figuring out preferred width of element.
22:13:52 [fantasai]
dbaron: The way things need to work for blocks and tables is that min-width doesn't affect the pref width of the element, but affects the pref width of the parent
22:14:27 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: minimum width is just min-width: min-content is not an implied minimum
22:15:23 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: There was a question when flex-align: stretch combines with 'max-width' smaller than the size of the flexbox so that it can't stretch beyond
22:15:29 [fantasai]
22:15:41 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Proposal is to respect the sizing constraint and then start-align
22:16:56 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: proposal accepted
22:17:05 [fantasai]
Ojan: Do we want to address visibility: collapse
22:17:25 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: the problem with using display:none to dynamically show/hide elements...
22:17:39 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: that you really only want to take thing out-of-flow in one dimension (the main axis).
22:18:03 [Bert]
(Example of 'visibility: collapse' in tables:
22:18:48 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: You can't do that with display:none, but visibility:collapse is *supposed* to solve this in tables. It does a bad job, but we cant do it right.
22:18:53 [fantasai]
(example was of a panel with collapsing panels)
22:19:01 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: I think it doesn't work well in tables because it hasn't been solved right yet.
22:19:29 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: Because if you have more space for the other things, they can be smaller in the other dimension, so they'll still change size.
22:20:01 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Tables also have the problem that row/col spans get clipped oddly by collapse.
22:20:26 [TabAtkins_]
ojan: My concern with this is that this is sort of a more generic thing. Why doesn't this work on lists (hiding, but still incrementing counters).
22:20:30 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I'd like it to work there.
22:20:53 [TabAtkins_]
ojan: Right, but there's backwards compat issues. So let's ignore collapse, and solve it properly with a new property or value.
22:21:04 [fantasai]
dbaron: What's the problem with lists?
22:21:09 [fantasai]
that's not solved by display: none?
22:21:26 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Preserving counters.
22:21:34 [fantasai]
fantasai: Also contribution of the width to the parent's intrinsic size
22:21:42 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Also, running animations.
22:21:56 [fantasai]
Steve: what happens if I set height to zero
22:22:28 [fantasai]
fantasai: you also have to turn off padding, border, margins, box-shadow, etc. etc.
22:23:42 [fantasai]
Ojan: So it's dead in the water to make visibility: collapse; work on block elements, I presume?
22:23:50 [fantasai]
dbaron: I don't know, maybe not
22:23:58 [fantasai]
Molly: visibility: collapse isn't taught
22:24:49 [fantasai]
22:25:50 [vhardy]
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22:26:45 [fantasai]
fantasai: Goal is to make it not show up, just like display: none; except without some of its problems
22:28:20 [fantasai]
Bert asserts that you'd want to leave extra space so that the content after the list stays the same place
22:28:45 [fantasai]
fantasai doesn't understand what we're arguing over anymore
22:29:50 [fantasai]
dbaron: sounds like this is unresolved
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22:48:21 [TabAtkins_]
scribenick: TabAtkins_
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22:49:05 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: multicol is in CR. impls are coming along.
22:49:15 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: But there's one area i've discovered wehre we don't hav einterop
22:49:30 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: the break-before/after/inside properties
22:49:30 [howcome]
22:49:45 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: Basic question i need an answer for.
22:49:53 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: Applies to both column and page breaks.
22:50:09 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: Say you have an element, the first in a page or column. And you set break-before on it.
22:50:24 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: Should you apply it (forcing a new break), or just leave it, since it's already the first element.
22:51:17 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: I think we should do the latter.
22:51:18 [mmielke]
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22:51:22 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: For both pages and columns.
22:51:24 [Rossen]
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22:51:51 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: For pages, you sometimes want blank pages, but you don't want *arbitrary* extra blank pages. Usually you want to start all chapters on the left page, or something.
22:52:17 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: Sometimes you do specifically always want, say, 1 blank page before chapters.
22:52:44 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: You can do that by using ::before or similar and give it a sufficient height (but no content) to push the rest of the content down.
22:52:55 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: 2 out of 3, roughly, do it the way I want.
22:53:08 [ChrisL]
<div class="notes" style="page-break-before:always;background-image:tpib.png"/>
22:53:11 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: The others force a new break.
22:53:39 [ChrisL]
22:54:02 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: So the proposal is to *not* create a blank column when the first element in a multicol has break-before:always.
22:54:23 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLVED: break-before:column won't force a blank column when the element is the first in the column.
22:55:00 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: For pages, there are use-cases where you want to feed the blank pages, there are larger use-cases where you *absolutely don't* want that.
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22:55:33 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: So we should use that as the default, and possibly address the "force blank pages" later.
22:55:50 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLVED: Pages work the same as columns - an element at the to pof the page with break-before won't force a blank page.
22:56:25 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: Now, <div><div></div></div><style>div { break-after: all; }</style>
22:56:30 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: Two breaks? Or do they collaps?
22:56:47 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I think they do collapse. The spec seems to imply that as well.
22:56:56 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: And it's consistent with the decision we just made.
22:58:34 [howard]
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22:58:35 [TabAtkins_]
alexmog: I don't think any browser currently has that behavior.
22:58:39 [tpod]
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22:58:42 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I intend to fix that in Mozilla.
22:59:00 [TabAtkins_]
alexmog: I think all browsers collapse -after breaks, but not -before breaks.
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23:00:00 [TabAtkins_]
alexmog: Things like the <html> element shouldn't count as "content" before the element, forcing a break. Same with display:none elements.
23:00:32 [tantek]
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23:00:36 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: For <div></div><div></div>, we shouldn't collapse - breaks shouldn't collapse through.
23:00:41 [plinss]
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23:01:03 [fantasai]
corrected example: <div>...</div><div/></div>...</div>
23:01:05 [TabAtkins_]
szilles: I'm surprised at this. I would think it would be simpler to always honor the breaks, not collapse.
23:01:26 [TabAtkins_]
alexmog: Say you have an <h1>, the first thing in the document, and you set break-before on it.
23:01:41 [TabAtkins_]
alexmog: But it's *not* actually the first element. <html> and <body> precede it.
23:02:07 [TabAtkins_]
szilles: Isn't that consistent with our previous case? If the <h1> is at the top of the page...
23:02:11 [r12a]
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23:02:25 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: This is a different case
23:02:36 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: In this multicol case, the <div> is literally the first thing on the page
23:02:55 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: In the other case, the <h1> is not the first thing on the page, it's wrapped by a <body> and an <html>
23:03:19 [fantasai]
szilles: Define that as being at the top of the page
23:03:50 [fantasai]
Alex: Orphan control shouldn't .. if you have a region with only room for one line, and we have an element with orphan that has 3 lines
23:04:06 [fantasai]
alex: we're currently going to move that to the next region because we're not at the top of the page
23:04:48 [fantasai]
alex: You have a long enough paragraph, multiple lines
23:04:54 [fantasai]
alex: starts in a region which can fit just one line
23:05:00 [fantasai]
alex: which is ok for titles
23:05:17 [fantasai]
alex: You want that one line to still be in that region, even though with orphan control will want to keep it with the rest of the parent
23:05:37 [fantasai]
alex: The resason these cases are related, is if break-before and break-after are intepreted as I think in the spec
23:05:51 [fantasai]
alex: they're not "make sure there's a break here", it's "make sure this is the first thing on the page"
23:06:02 [shepazu]
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23:06:10 [fantasai]
alex: For both widow/orphan and breaks, you're still looking at whether you're the first thing on the page
23:06:22 [fantasai]
alex: opening tags don't count as making you not at the top of the page
23:06:34 [fantasai]
szilles: That would just fall out of the deifnition, which is make sure this is the first thing on the page
23:07:00 [fantasai]
howcome: ...
23:07:43 [fantasai]
howcome: <chapter><section></section.</chapter>
23:07:43 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: You'd like to break before/after both the sections and chapters.
23:07:44 [fantasai]
howcome: You want each chapter to start on the first page, and each section to start on the first. You want to set break-before
23:08:16 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: 2.1 says that when determining breaks, you look at the break properties of all the elements that meet at the given margin.
23:08:27 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: It's pretty vague, unfortunately.
23:08:52 [TabAtkins_]
alexmog: page breaks don't prevent margin collapsing, though...
23:10:07 [alexmog]
23:10:20 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: Specifically, the definition of "top of a page" is underdefined. Does a marging or border on a parent make you no longer at the to pof a page? (The correct answer is no.)
23:10:23 [fantasai]
dbaron: It needs to be defined in a whole bnch of cases. Frex Mozilla has mTopOfPage, which deals solely with the possibility of somethng not fitting -- it lets us know
23:10:37 [fantasai]
dbaron: if we have made any progress in putting things on the page, so that we don't keep breaking and placing no content
23:10:41 [fantasai]
dbaron: For that border does count
23:11:05 [homata]
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23:11:07 [TabAtkins_]
alexmog: Having <body> as your parent, even with ??? is honored.
23:11:31 [TabAtkins_]
alexmog: If you look at break-after, which is supposed to be consistent with break-before, all browsers collapse break-after.
23:11:48 [TabAtkins_]
szilles: Isn't that the same rule/difficulty in determining if something is at the end of the page?
23:11:51 [TabAtkins_]
alexmog: Yes.
23:12:12 [TabAtkins_]
alexmog: [some sectoin] has a very simply rule that just says a forced break occurs when any elements contributing to the current margin have a forced break.
23:12:24 [TabAtkins_]
alexmog: So you go and do normal margin collapsing, then look at the result.
23:12:43 [fantasai]
23:12:53 [fantasai]
alexmog reads from CSS2.1 spec
23:13:17 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: It wouldn't have been written with more than one element if collapsing wasn't meant to happen.
23:13:23 [fantasai]
23:13:44 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: So we can just clarify 2.1 if it' snot fully clear.
23:14:04 [tobie]
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23:14:35 [TabAtkins_]
szilles: Doesn't the margin definition break if you put a border on <chapter>?
23:14:41 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: Yes, and that's bad.
23:14:55 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: What happens if one says 'left' and the other says 'right'?
23:15:22 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: I say you choose whichever one grants you the most pagebreaks.
23:16:08 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: When collapsing breaks there's nothing "between" your breaks. I think you should choose the last one, because it's the one closest to the next content.
23:16:36 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: I'd like to have a resolution because we're in CR, and we need testcases written.
23:16:40 [szilles]
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23:16:46 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: I can live with the last one winning if there are conflicts.
23:17:31 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: The spec is pretty clear that a series of page breaks should never generate more than one page break in series.
23:17:59 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: Okay, so collapsing works. Do borders stop break collapsing?
23:18:16 [TabAtkins_]
alexmog: They block margin collapsing, so.
23:18:28 [dbaron]
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23:18:38 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: Can't we just lean on margin collapsing's rule?
23:18:51 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I don't think there's *ever* a use-case for having a border around a blank page with this.
23:19:07 [TabAtkins_]
alexmog: the 2.1 definition is based on margin-collapsing.
23:19:37 [fantasai]
Florian: We should prioritize authors over implementations, and authors don't want a blank page with just a border.
23:19:42 [TabAtkins_]
alexmog: And if we can avoid changing the very complicated margin-collapsing, that's good.
23:20:08 [fantasai]
szilles advocates for just coming up with a good definition for top-of-page
23:20:46 [fantasai]
szilles: Definition is if you haven't put any content on the page, then you're at the top. And borders aren't content.
23:21:22 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: This is still wayyy simpler than margin collapsing. There's no negatives, no zer-height elements that collapse through, none of that.
23:21:32 [fantasai]
howcome: I think there's some kind of consensus here.
23:22:04 [Mike5]
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23:22:27 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: page-break-before doesn't create a break if you're at the top of the page, where at the top of the page means no content has been placed. Borders do not count as content.
23:22:43 [fantasai]
Zero-height content counts.
23:22:46 [fantasai]
as content
23:23:09 [fantasai]
dbaron: So placing an empty block counts, but placing start of a block does not count.
23:23:39 [fantasai]
dbaron: Alternative def is placed either a non-phantom line box or a non-replaced block with non-zero height, or anything other than something that goes in a line box, or ...
23:23:49 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Can we just say line boxes is all we care about?
23:24:04 [fantasai]
dbaron: tables? replaced blocks?
23:24:25 [fantasai]
s/, or .../and isn't a non-replaced block/
23:24:31 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Why are we allowing ... collapsed through?
23:24:40 [fantasai]
dbaron: Because alex waned it
23:25:02 [fantasai]
Alex: I really like CSS2.1 definition because it covers lots of cases in just 2 lines
23:25:16 [fantasai]
howcome: So we have one proposal which is 2.1, based on margin collapsing
23:25:36 [dbaron]
I'm fine with the 2.1 definition
23:25:38 [dbaron]
23:25:44 [fantasai]
howcome: And then another, perhaps simpler, definition
23:26:03 [dbaron]
s/and isn't a non-replaced block/, or something that doesn't go in a line box and isn't a non-replaced block/
23:26:50 [fantasai]
howcome writes out the definitions
23:27:07 [fantasai]
dbaron: One thing that seems weird is that you have start of a block, that's ok, and end of a block, that's ok, but start *and* end of block, that's not ok
23:27:45 [fantasai]
23:27:52 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: The break-afters generate a break
23:28:04 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: The break-befores don't generate a break: they're already on a new page
23:28:46 [fantasai]
fantasai: The thing that's weird is collapsing anything through the content area of an element. We do that for margin collapsing, and its weird. We should not do that here.
23:29:03 [fantasai]
alex: I have a problem with not counting the border as content
23:29:21 [fantasai]
alex: My margin will be after that border, and while I'm asking to be the first thing on the page, I'm not really
23:29:38 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I think the potential downside of where that might be confusing is less bad than having an entirely blank page with nothing but a border on it.
23:30:11 [fantasai]
fantasai: You're actually not required to print pages that have only backgrounds and borders on them
23:30:19 [fantasai]
howcome: It seems you feel quite strongly about this, Alex.
23:30:30 [fantasai]
howcome: Let's take a quick straw poll.
23:31:10 [fantasai]
A: alex
23:31:13 [fantasai]
B: steve/fantasai/tab
23:31:26 [fantasai]
jj: A
23:31:29 [fantasai]
alex: A
23:31:32 [fantasai]
koji: abstain
23:31:35 [fantasai]
Markus: abstain
23:31:39 [fantasai]
Tantek: abstain
23:31:40 [fantasai]
Steve: B
23:31:42 [fantasai]
Alan: abstain
23:31:44 [fantasai]
23:31:45 [fantasai]
Florian: B
23:31:48 [fantasai]
ert; abstain
23:31:50 [fantasai]
23:32:05 [fantasai]
lots of abstain
23:32:10 [fantasai]
howcome: we can collapse all the abstain
23:32:28 [fantasai]
Rossen: A
23:32:30 [fantasai]
dbaron: A
23:32:36 [fantasai]
sylvaing: abstain
23:32:39 [fantasai]
arronei: A
23:32:43 [fantasai]
Tab: B
23:32:45 [fantasai]
fantasai: B
23:33:20 [Bert]
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23:34:29 [fantasai]
smfr: B
23:34:31 [fantasai]
molly: B
23:34:47 [hober]
hober: b
23:34:57 [gilles]
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23:37:44 [fantasai]
molly: The empty <div> is there. If we're dynamically generating things, it should have an effect
23:37:54 [fantasai]
fantasai^ explains the two options
23:38:32 [fantasai]
now howcome is explaining why we're collapsing at all
23:39:14 [fantasai]
Alex: If you look at continuous media, where instead of page-break you have a large margin
23:39:18 [fantasai]
alex: e.g. 3em margin
23:39:33 [fantasai]
alex: whatever comes after margin is held together by the results of margin-collapse
23:39:49 [howard]
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23:40:22 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: If you're collapsing through this element, where is this break happening?
23:40:44 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: If you have a bunch of break-afters, and you collapse them, and you break the page, the margins that were there get truncated.
23:40:54 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: But after a forced page break, you keep margins at the top.
23:41:39 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: If you have an empty div, and you have set break-before and after on it, and the preceding and following div also have breaks, which page is the middle <div> contributing to?
23:41:58 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: And more importantly, which page is the empty div on?
23:42:29 [TabAtkins_]
alexmog: Where does it say that margins are truncated after the break?
23:43:17 [Mike5]
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23:43:22 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: We resolved on that.
23:43:29 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: [explains the 2.1 spec for it]
23:44:33 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: And this assumes that breaks exist *between* block-level margins, rather than being stuck somewhere *inside* of collapsed margins.
23:44:36 [mollydotcom]
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23:44:37 [dbaron]
quoting 13.3.3 point 1 and the note following
23:44:59 [fantasai]
jj: A
23:45:00 [TabAtkins_]
new straw poll!
23:45:01 [fantasai]
alex: A
23:45:07 [fantasai]
23:45:13 [fantasai]
Florian: B
23:45:17 [fantasai]
Bert: A
23:45:23 [fantasai]
Brad: B
23:45:30 [fantasai]
hober: B
23:45:32 [fantasai]
smfr: B
23:45:38 [fantasai]
Kim: B
23:45:40 [fantasai]
Molly: B
23:45:43 [fantasai]
Rossen: B
23:45:44 [fantasai]
dbaron: B
23:45:47 [fantasai]
arronei: A
23:45:55 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: B
23:45:57 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: B
23:46:00 [fantasai]
glazou: B
23:46:09 [dbaron]
23:46:09 [TabAtkins_]
23:46:20 [dbaron]
23:46:26 [fantasai]
4 A, 12 B
23:46:33 [fantasai]
ChrisL: B
23:46:39 [fantasai]
-> 13 B
23:46:52 [fantasai]
23:47:32 [fantasai]
ACTION fantasai: put proposal B for page-break collapsing into specs
23:47:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-393 - Put proposal B for page-break collapsing into specs [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-11-07].
23:47:35 [Ruinan]
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23:47:50 [fantasai]
dbaron: We should errata 2.1
23:48:07 [dbaron]
alex: can we get it written up first?
23:48:43 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Column boxes define a containing block, right?
23:48:54 [fantasai]
sylvaing: What if my columns are balanced and I have a percentage height?
23:49:09 [fantasai]
dbaron: If it's auto height, it's auto-height
23:49:20 [fantasai]
dbaron: The column boxes all occupy the full height of the multicol box
23:49:25 [fantasai]
dbaron: They should have the same implicit height
23:49:35 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Don't they adjust when you balance
23:49:39 [Bert]
ACTION bert: create issue against CSS 2.1 corresponding to ACTION-393.
23:49:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-394 - Create issue against CSS 2.1 corresponding to ACTION-393. [on Bert Bos - due 2011-11-07].
23:51:06 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: percentage in block dimension is computed relative to multi-col element
23:51:38 [fantasai]
Topic: GCPM
23:51:46 [fantasai]
howocme: This is what I showed last night.
23:51:52 [fantasai]
howcome: A few other changes we need to go through.
23:51:59 [fantasai]
howcome: WD is a year old.
23:52:06 [fantasai]
howcome: One thing that left GCPM since then is hyphenation
23:52:10 [fantasai]
howcome: We should do an updated WD
23:52:13 [fantasai]
howcome: A couple other things
23:52:29 [fantasai]
glazou: Markus has shown me horizontal navigation in a document that is a little bit in conflict with your proposal
23:52:37 [fantasai]
howcome: I don't think it's in conflict, they're going in the same way
23:52:50 [fantasai]
Markus and howcome seem to be ok with the situation
23:53:04 [Mike5]
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23:53:05 [fantasai]
howcome: I'm not tied to the syntax, but I think it shoudl be declarative as you say
23:53:20 [fantasai]
markus: Declarative is good, but you also need JS access
23:53:25 [fantasai]
howcome: First issue is with leaders
23:53:28 [fantasai]
howcome: Bert brought up this point
23:53:38 [fantasai]
howcome: The issue being that he wanted to have control over alignment of leaders
23:53:53 [fantasai]
howcome: If I understood correctly, Bert, you wanted to create a leader that's an arrow
23:54:01 [fantasai]
howcome draws: ABC ------------> 1
23:54:11 [Bert]
-> examples of leaders (hacked, of course, but showing the way I want them)
23:54:14 [fantasai]
howcome: In order for this arrow, which is in the generated content,
23:54:24 [fantasai]
howcome: to make this visually make sense, Bert wants the point of the arrow to connect with the line
23:54:39 [fantasai]
howcome: So that you don't get that effect *draws an arrow where the head is broken from the body*
23:54:52 [fantasai]
ChrisL: That assumes the horizontal lines match up with the arrows
23:54:57 [curmet]
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23:54:59 [fantasai]
Bert: In the Symbol fonts they do
23:55:25 [fantasai]
howcome: the idea is to add a second argument to the leader function,
23:55:34 [curmet]
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23:56:06 [fantasai]
howcome: I think these are the values you need: 'start', 'end', 'center', 'space', 'pattern'
23:56:43 [fantasai]
howcome: pattern is to make the dots align across lines
23:56:47 [karl]
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23:56:50 [fantasai]
glazou: 'space' should be 'stretch'
23:57:05 [fantasai]
fantasai: Stretching implies stretching the glyph. background-repeat uses 'space'
23:57:23 [fantasai]
howcome: You want these leaders to align. I think this is the most common use case.
23:57:53 [fantasai]
szilles: Don't understand where the space is added.
23:58:03 [fantasai]
dbaron: You put as many characters as will fit. In normal case you right-align them
23:58:17 [fantasai]
dbaron: In space case, you insert spaces between the leaders
23:58:33 [fantasai]
szilles: Need to be clear about whether its between all the characters or between each string
23:58:44 [fantasai]
Bert: Not the way it works in TeX, but it's another option
23:58:55 [fantasai]
Bert: The leader unit is a fixed size, doesn't chnage size
23:59:11 [fantasai]
Bert: Can put space before/after, both, etc. but not inside it
23:59:18 [fantasai]
Tantek: Aren't leaders like border-images?
23:59:37 [glazou]
s/'space' should be 'stretch'/'space' will mean whitespace in web author's mind, please use something else like stretch (just an example)
23:59:47 [fantasai]
Tantek: why not use images
00:00:01 [fantasai]
szilles: Because the common case is to use glyphs
00:00:09 [ChrisL]
typographers also see decorations as glyphs
00:00:40 [fantasai]
fantasai: might want both characters and images
00:01:17 [fantasai]
fantasai talks about matchng the dots to the dots in the font, in size, postion, and shape
00:01:36 [fantasai]
szilles: We've talked about a need for characters, there might also be a need for images
00:02:05 [fantasai]
molly: I think space, which goes characters out to available space, and justification which fits inside the containing block
00:02:08 [fantasai]
00:02:18 [fantasai]
molly: What I interpret that as meaning space out the chraacters to take up the width
00:02:21 [fantasai]
howcome: That's right
00:02:31 [fantasai]
howcome: The quesiton is between all characters or only where the repetition is
00:02:37 [fantasai]
szilles: Why not have two values
00:03:12 [fantasai]
fantasai: space and justify
00:03:19 [fantasai]
fantasai: space like border-image and background-repeat
00:03:28 [fantasai]
?: letter-space and pattern-space
00:03:43 [fantasai]
molly: justify makes sense
00:04:03 [fantasai]
molly: This addresses both issues
00:04:12 [fantasai]
howcome: Does anyone need center?
00:04:23 [fantasai]
Bert: Sometimes you want as much space before the leader as well as after
00:04:34 [fantasai]
dbaron: Centered absolutely or centered individually?
00:05:42 [fantasai]
Florian: We're resolving to split the space into two, and not remove any other value
00:05:47 [wangsi-wei]
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00:06:31 [fantasai]
some confusion around everything
00:07:08 [tantek]
(try resizing)
00:07:28 [tantek]
00:07:50 [fantasai]
howcome puts in string-space and letter-space
00:08:54 [cslye]
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00:09:45 [fantasai]
bikeshed pattern -> align
00:09:57 [fantasai]
fantasai: I'd also drop the comma and use ||
00:10:01 [fantasai]
fantasai: just like in properties
00:10:22 [fantasai]
Bert: One more about leaders, but maybe not so easy to solve.
00:10:28 [fantasai]
Bert: How to make double-ended arrows
00:10:48 [fantasai]
fantasai: Just put three strings: "start" "middle" "end"
00:12:06 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: image-resolution is in css3-images, so should remove from here
00:12:26 [fantasai]
howcome: ok, done
00:12:33 [fantasai]
szilles: One other catch with alignment
00:12:44 [fantasai]
szilles: In Indic languages, the leader aligns with the hanging basline
00:13:20 [fantasai]
szilles: In Japanese it would be centered
00:13:27 [fantasai]
fantasai: That should be handled in the fonts
00:13:51 [fantasai]
szilles: The leader needs to be aligned to the relevant baseline.
00:14:01 [fantasai]
szilles: That may fall out
00:14:18 [fantasai]
szilles: Just want it noted
00:14:33 [dbaron]
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00:14:48 [fantasai]
howcome: Nothing changed in ... various sections ....
00:14:56 [fantasai]
howcome: Paged Presentations
00:15:13 [fantasai]
howcome: This is basically what I demoed yesterday, where we use the overflow property to set the axis onto which we put out these pages
00:15:29 [fantasai]
howcome: They could be analyzed and split into two, and we could have multiple properties for them
00:15:39 [szilles]
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00:15:41 [fantasai]
howcome: We did that at some point in our implementation, but it creates many possibilities
00:15:46 [fantasai]
howcome: that we aren't really going to use
00:15:53 [fantasai]
howcome: So instead we have four values that cover the needs we have found
00:15:58 [fantasai]
howcome: there might be others
00:16:03 [fantasai]
howcome: not tied to syntax, but we like the functionlity
00:16:25 [fantasai]
howcome: the -controls bit adds the UI
00:16:31 [fantasai]
howcome: native UI for paging
00:17:13 [fantasai]
szilles: I'm concerned that it's not as standardized as scrollbars are
00:17:21 [fantasai]
howcome: It's like HTML5 controls for video
00:17:24 [fantasai]
glazou: that's in the markup
00:17:31 [fantasai]
alex: ... overflow paginator, could be x and y
00:18:00 [fantasai]
howcome: Could split these into 2 properties. Paged thing could be on 2 oveflow, and the others on a diferent property
00:18:25 [fantasai]
howcome clarifies that x in paged-x is about how the pages connect, not which direction of overflow is affected
00:18:33 [fantasai]
glazou: I'm very concerned about the controls bit
00:18:42 [fantasai]
Florian: Does the first bit forbid the UA to have controls?
00:18:55 [fantasai]
howcome: Alex asked, does touch work both places?
00:19:02 [fantasai]
howcome: This just adds visual controls
00:19:19 [fantasai]
dbaron: In the simplest case it could even be a scrollbar, though probably not the best idea, but it could be
00:19:27 [ChrisL]
so the distnction is that the controls take up space
00:19:50 [fantasai]
howcome: We have overflow: scroll;, so we are referring to controls already
00:19:51 [Bert]
q+ to compare to marquee and overflow-style
00:20:22 [fantasai]
fantasai: In scroll vs auto, we're distinguisshing whether the controls are visible when there's no need to scroll, not whether the UA should put controls at all when there is overflow to scroll to
00:20:35 [fantasai]
dbaron: More similar to hidden
00:20:50 [glazou]
00:20:55 [fantasai]
molly: Point out that if the controls are UA-dependent, could be a problem -- authors will want to style it
00:20:55 [glazou]
ack Bert
00:21:18 [fantasai]
Bert: When we introduced marquee, we added overflow-style and had it as a value of overflow-style
00:21:29 [fantasai]
Bert: This seems more like additional values for overflow-style
00:21:33 [kermit]
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00:21:55 [fantasai]
Tantek: overflow-style: marquee-paged
00:22:25 [fantasai]
Markus: In the first case (paged-x) you still want some indication of where you are
00:22:42 [fantasai]
Markus: The default shouldn't be nothing.
00:22:53 [tantek]
where's Tapas when you need him
00:22:57 [fantasai]
dbaron: There are 2 options, in some sense there's no default. You can choose with or without controls
00:23:18 [fantasai]
howcome: This is where we've built a UI through the dom. These controls have been made by the page (shows demo) whereas these are made by the UA
00:23:38 [fantasai]
szilles: I'm still confused about what "this" is that you say should be in CSS
00:23:53 [fantasai]
Adobe: In Acrobat the controls appear on hover
00:24:54 [fantasai]
howcome: you can choose whether UA gives controls or whether author provides controls
00:25:38 [fantasai]
fantasai: What if the author assumes you have a swipe interface for paging, and doesn't provide controls, but I don't have that interface? Then I'm stuck.
00:26:05 [fantasai]
glazou: When you use the overflow property, you just say that the overflow should be visible in some way. You don't make any provision about the means.
00:26:08 [tantek]
00:26:12 [dbaron]
I disagree with Daniel.
00:26:22 [fantasai]
Markus: Here I'm showing you a similar solution using regions and exlucions
00:26:27 [dbaron]
I don't think saying there are "controls" is too constraining.
00:26:32 [fantasai]
Markus: You have a template mechanism that handles overflow.
00:26:46 [fantasai]
Markus: At the bottom there is a little indicator of where you are and how many pages you have
00:26:52 [fantasai]
Markus: If I use the mouse, I get a scrollbar
00:27:11 [fantasai]
glazou: Here you are stopping the scrolling between two pages
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(markus is demoing)
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00:27:44 [fantasai]
markus puts some experimental -ms- snap properties
00:27:54 [fantasai]
markus: Now it snaps between pages
00:28:03 [fantasai]
markus: But you still get a progress indicator, so you know where you are
00:28:17 [fantasai]
markus: Beauty of this approach, based on regions, it's a simple JS templating model.
00:28:22 [fantasai]
markus: You can inject animations, etc. etc.
00:28:38 [fantasai]
markus: Not saying howcome's idea is a bad idea, but this brings more powerful
00:28:49 [fantasai]
Tantek: Can we go back to howcome's demo
00:28:56 [fantasai]
Tantek: You mentioned that simple values etc.
00:29:05 [fantasai]
Tantek: I'm wondeirng how does that interact with overflow-x and overflow-y
00:29:10 [fantasai]
Tantek: I know Opera supports those.
00:29:21 [fantasai]
Tantek: If you've figured that out, I'd love to understand that interaction
00:29:37 [fantasai]
howcome: These properties only belong on overflow shorthand
00:29:44 [fantasai]
Tantek: That's why I think they should go on overflow-style
00:29:51 [fantasai]
howcome ...
00:30:18 [fantasai]
fantasai: I agree it should go in overflow-style
00:30:32 [fantasai]
dbaron: This changes the layout model
00:30:53 [fantasai]
dbaron: It's not just changing how we get to the overflow
00:31:12 [fantasai]
fantasai: I have a question for Markus: what happens when you print?
00:31:34 [fantasai]
Markus projects:
00:31:36 [fantasai]
body {
00:31:39 [fantasai]
overflow-x: auto;
00:31:42 [fantasai]
overflow-y: hidden;
00:31:48 [fantasai]
-ms-scroll-snap-type: mandatory;
00:31:58 [fantasai]
-ms-scroll-snap-points-x: snapInterval(...)
00:32:01 [fantasai]
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00:32:20 [fantasai]
Markus: In general the basics of how this app runs, it's just a simple page that brings in other html pages as templates
00:32:35 [fantasai]
markus: We also have a default overflow template
00:32:49 [fantasai]
markus: Just a little bit of JS to make this stuff work
00:32:51 [fantasai]
glazou: little bit?
00:33:01 [fantasai]
markus shows template pages
00:33:10 [fantasai]
markus: Place my items, grid
00:33:18 [fantasai]
Markus: What I showed you at the end is playing with this snap thing
00:33:29 [fantasai]
Markus: You can snap after one page, multiple pages, define ranges etc.
00:33:44 [fantasai]
Markus: We presented at the build conference, sdk out there, want to bring th WG as a propsoal
00:33:47 [fantasai]
glazou: So this only works with JS?
00:34:10 [tantek]
LOL - Håkon's pagination proposal is already in the media:
00:34:34 [fantasai]
fantasai: I don't mind having JS interact with CSS, but I don't want us to build layout models here that require JavaScript in order to work.
00:34:43 [tantek]
(and )
00:34:51 [fantasai]
Markus: You can do interesting animations
00:35:33 [fantasai]
Markus: When we started thinking about pagination, we started with something ismilar to howcome's model, but thought it would be better to have .... to create a better magazine-type experience.
00:35:50 [fantasai]
hober: ...
00:35:56 [fantasai]
howcome: I encourage you to add pagination to regions
00:36:10 [fantasai]
alex: Pagination should be part of regions
00:36:17 [fantasai]
howcome: Regions should know how to work with pages
00:37:02 [fantasai]
szilles: I agree with fantasai's statement that layout models shouldn't require JavaScript, but also good to define events and things to add more
00:37:16 [fantasai]
glazou: Agreed, but the basic thing howcome demoed shouldn't require JavaScript
00:37:23 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Right, it should be optional
00:37:28 [tantek]
pagination events would be useful
00:37:32 [fantasai]
howcome shows his api
00:37:42 [fantasai]
szilles: I might want to ask questions about pages, like what links are on this page
00:37:51 [fantasai]
howcome: I think that's reasonable
00:38:01 [fantasai]
howcome: I object to you calling this a low-end feature, markus.
00:38:19 [fantasai]
howcome: I can recreate the Economist's layout almost pixel perfect with this
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00:38:26 [stearns]
Alex's comment was that pagination should *not* be part of regions
00:38:47 [fantasai]
BradK: Howcome's solution, the UA cna provid ethe UI for how the pagees get turned
00:39:00 [fantasai]
bradk_: So you can even hav an ibook like experience, where it's curling and everything. Could be a high-end kind of experience
00:39:18 [fantasai]
florian: high-end from control of the user, not the author (?)
00:39:27 [fantasai]
bradk_: I consider an advantage, don't have to relearn how to turn pages on every website
00:40:11 [fantasai]
Alan: I think whatever we build for pagination should work with multicol, work with regions, shoudl wirk without either
00:40:16 [fantasai]
Alan: Could see this for slides
00:40:32 [fantasai]
Markus: As soon as you want more flexibility on what thigns look like, you need regions
00:40:47 [fantasai]
bradk_: Scrollbars are the same every page you're at, unless the author does somethng special
00:40:56 [fantasai]
bradk_: I think that's good, so you don't have to figure out how to turn pages.
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00:41:12 [fantasai]
Szilles: If we're going to do what Brad just said, we should agree on what the compones are
00:41:22 [fantasai]
szilles: My Kindle can do more than go back and forth between pages
00:41:31 [fantasai]
szilles: A bunch of things ppl expect when paging things
00:41:41 [fantasai]
szilles: Come up with some expectation of what the controls should be
00:41:47 [fantasai]
szilles: controls is too open ended
00:41:54 [fantasai]
[szilles says stuff about bookmarks etc]
00:42:00 [fantasai]
molly: I agree.
00:42:10 [fantasai]
molly: Need consistency, and say explicit about how it needss to be done
00:42:26 [fantasai]
hober: HTML5 doesn't say much about what the video controls should be
00:42:43 [fantasai]
howcome: Depending on what the device is, might have different controls
00:42:54 [fantasai]
Florian: Say what capabilities it has
00:43:28 [fantasai]
molly: I want to step back a moment,I understood that if you use these features and allow the UA specific ontrols, that you wil be able to style those ocntrols
00:43:37 [fantasai]
Florian: If you want to style it, you build it yourself.
00:43:46 [fantasai]
molly: ok
00:43:57 [fantasai]
hober: Ua could provide some hook into its controls, but that's up to the UA
00:44:05 [fantasai]
molly: As long as ppl can create their own controls
00:44:12 [fantasai]
Bert: As longas I as the user can override what the author does
00:44:25 [fantasai]
Bert: I want consistency across pages. I choose my browser.
00:45:12 [fantasai]
fantasai: If the author says, don't put controls, and builds his own out of JS, and the user is lke "I can't deal with these weird controls, I want my own controls", how do you deal with that?
00:45:34 [fantasai]
Florian: Turning on the UA controls is easy. Killing the author controls is not so much.
00:45:45 [fantasai]
szilles: Also need ot make sure ther eare screenreader APIs for this.
00:46:05 [fantasai]
discussion of accessibility apis and what they're capable of
00:46:13 [mmielke]
Links to the Regions based demo (runs on win8 developer preview):
00:46:20 [fantasai]
molly: When you're looking at this content anyway, the ocntent is linearized in your core document
00:46:24 [fantasai]
szilles: With regions you can mix streams
00:46:47 [fantasai]
alex: I think this should be a display property
00:47:14 [fantasai]
alex: If it's overflow property, it applies to everything. But paging a flexbox doesn't make sense.
00:47:49 [fantasai]
alex: All other kinds of layout that support overflow don't need to support paged overflow
00:47:58 [fantasai]
plinss: Don't see why you can't paginate flexbox
00:48:09 [fantasai]
howcome: I'd really like to publish another WD of GCPM.
00:48:31 [fantasai]
howcome: We haven't gone through everything, so we can have big disclaimers about syntax and everything
00:48:58 [fantasai]
howcome: But I'd like to get out another WD. First for updates to other things. But second there seems to be consensus that we want to work on this.
00:49:04 [fantasai]
glazou: Don't have consensus, have interest
00:49:11 [fantasai]
glazou: So provided you document all the issues and comments.
00:49:16 [fantasai]
glazou: It's only a WD and we have interest in the feature
00:49:37 [fantasai]
szilles: I'm def interested in the feature, but not sure where it belongs
00:49:57 [fantasai]
fantasai: It can start here, and then we'll see where it goes. Just like everything else.
00:50:16 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Move counter styles to css3-lists? most is already in css3-lists. Willing to take on the next thing
00:50:33 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think there's a bunch of things in this spec, and not a whole lot of interest in other things in the spec
00:50:52 [fantasai]
fantasai: we're doing that already
00:51:16 [fantasai]
dbaron: So we're going with the model that everything we want will go out of it?
00:51:25 [fantasai]
howcome: Like John said, I don't think this will ever go to REC
00:51:31 [fantasai]
s/this/this module/
00:51:45 [fantasai]
glazou: Any objection to publishing?
00:51:54 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Publish CSS3 GCPM as soon as all edits are made
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glazou: Reminder, lot of joint meetings tomorrow, not necessarily in this room
00:52:18 [fantasai]
glazou: Also FXTF on Thursday
00:52:25 [fantasai]
glazou: Start here tomorrow.
00:52:32 [fantasai]
glazou: We will discuss CSSOM with Anne at 9am
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00:53:25 [fantasai]
fantasai: jdagget, kojiishii and I will be having a joint meeting with the UTC on Thursday
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16:00:50 [sylvaing]
scribenick: sylvaing
16:00:52 [dbaron]
Topic: CSSOM
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16:02:04 [sylvaing]
annevk: the CSSOM is a collection of various CSS features exposed through script
16:02:20 [sylvaing]
annevk: such as alternate stylesheets, stylesheets themselves
16:02:35 [sylvaing]
annevk: and a new part is CSS values which is very new
16:03:02 [sylvaing]
annevk: we are now waiting for implementation experience for CSS values
16:03:37 [sylvaing]
florian: we had talked about defining serialization
16:03:48 [sylvaing]
annevk: nothing new at this point
16:05:24 [sylvaing]
fantasai,annevk: we had talked about defining the serialization of basic types in a Serialization module
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16:06:32 [sylvaing]
fantasai: most of them were in CSS2.1 or should be new units in css3-values and Color
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16:08:06 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: there may a problem with the way we've modularized; some modules need to rev often than others. CSSOM is one of those
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16:08:24 [sylvaing]
Tab: some specs need to be 'living' ?
16:08:49 [sylvaing]
fantasai: that was the case for many modules. hence the modularization
16:09:11 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: if I add an at-rule I need a DOM interface so I'm adding things that should be in the OM
16:09:26 [sylvaing]
annevk: if you add an at-rule you should define all the related OM pieces in the same place
16:09:53 [sylvaing]
florian: the problem we have right now is bootstrapping. we don't have a 2.1 for serialization
16:09:58 [kojiishi]
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16:09:59 [sylvaing]
16:10:10 [sylvaing]
fantasai: until we have that we will be discussing process
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16:10:54 [sylvaing]
glazou: we're also going to talk about the OM forever until we fix its issues and implement the fixes
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16:11:01 [sylvaing]
glazou: we need a better OM
16:11:54 [sylvaing]
tantek: I agree we need a foundational OM spec.
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16:12:40 [fantasai]
16:12:52 [sylvaing]
tantek: just like HTML went through a painful process of defining an OM in sync with content out there. Starting with a known feature set would be easier and establish a baseline
16:13:09 [fantasai]
tantek: Instead of redrawing module lines, we should start by creating an OM for CSS 2.1
16:13:57 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: we do not have a consistently defined DOM interface. some modules define new at-rules but implementations may be using different rule constants which should be coordinated across specs
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16:14:32 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: there is no one looking at these features from an OM perspective. It's up to each editor and each editor's level of OM experience e.g. some modules will not define exceptions correctly
16:14:45 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: so specs are inconsistent
16:15:06 [sylvaing]
tantek: I suggest the common reference baseline would be a 2.1 OM
16:15:19 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: how does that help with new features
16:15:35 [alexmog]
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16:15:50 [sylvaing]
fantasai: like non OM features, most new OM features derive from existing features in 2.1 and you would have patterns to base new interfaces on
16:16:30 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: the pattern for what you have to do to specify a new at-rule is not defined; I'm not sure a 2.1 OM defines it. how is that different from what we have now ?
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16:17:18 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: I think we need more: at least a set of how-to guidelines e.g. if you define a new at-rule, these are the things you need to specify
16:17:30 [sylvaing]
tantek: we agree on goals, we're only discussing how to get there
16:18:22 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: I don't think we even have consensus on issues such as prefixed at-rules and how this relates to at-rule constants
16:18:46 [sylvaing]
glazou: this should definitely be specified
16:19:24 [sylvaing]
tantek: we should reach a bar where each module should define its DOM
16:19:26 [fantasai]
Proposal: Modularize CSSOM. Break it up into a a Serialization module, a Values module, an At-Rules module, a Media Queries module, etc.
16:19:42 [sylvaing]
tantek: keeping things separately did not help HTML
16:20:39 [sylvaing]
dbaron: there are modules how define their own OM e.g. Transitions (events), Animations (OM), Fonts, Conditional....
16:21:28 [sylvaing]
dbaron,annevk: Transforms has a value type but we agreed to deprecate the CSSValue type it uses
16:21:39 [sylvaing]
tantek: I think we need something that is up to date with 2.1
16:22:04 [sylvaing]
dbaron: part of the base problem is that DOM L2 Style has a number of features that are wrong, and a number of things we agreed to change but never fixed
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16:22:16 [sylvaing]
dbaron: we need to define this core baseline so we can build on top of it
16:22:30 [sylvaing]
annevk: as far as values, we deprecated the 2003 model but never replaced it
16:22:55 [sylvaing]
annevk: I didn't want to spec out the new model fully until we at least had some implementation experience with it
16:23:37 [sylvaing]
tankek: is there interop among browsers for 2.1 CSSOM ?
16:23:43 [sylvaing]
dbaron: what do you mean by 2.1 ?
16:23:54 [sylvaing]
tantek: what is in Gecko, Webkit, Trident today ?
16:24:26 [sylvaing]
dbaron: I don't know if it's that that interoperable?
16:24:59 [sylvaing]
annevk: I don't see how reorganizing is going to help us vs. implementors working on it.
16:25:13 [sylvaing]
annevk: there isn't even much discussion
16:25:52 [sylvaing]
dbaron: also, authors don't use the OM that much
16:26:04 [sylvaing]
tantek: isn't it a chicken-and-egg problem; they don't because they can't
16:27:23 [sylvaing]
tantek: Tab was complaining about how many obsolete drafts we have. we have this problem here too e.g. DOM L2 Style.
16:27:35 [sylvaing]
tantek: I'd like to see something that reflects the interoperable state of the world
16:27:37 [dbaron]
dbaron: I think authors don't use the OM much, even what is interoperable. Authors tend to use the model that styles are static and they dynamically change the content-- and I tend to think that's a good thing.
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16:28:11 [sylvaing]
dbaron: if there isn't a lot of demand for it, should we spend time on it ?
16:28:26 [fantasai]
16:28:52 [sylvaing]
tab: I know that there is demand for a new value based om that wouldn't be string-based. It's a popular author request that is currently done through libs like jQuery
16:29:02 [sylvaing]
tab: we know that there is a use-case in that area
16:29:26 [sylvaing]
dbaron: yes, i've seen author demand for this, as well as for variants of computed style as well as some author demand for the set of matched rules for an element
16:29:58 [sylvaing]
dbaron: I can't recall authors asking for poking through rules inside a stylesheet
16:30:05 [sylvaing]
tab: that is useful for CSS polyfills
16:30:20 [sylvaing]
annevk,dbaron: except the features you want to polyfill are dropped
16:30:32 [cyril]
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16:32:12 [sylvaing]
fantasai: I'd like to document what we have right now
16:32:25 [JohnJansen]
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16:32:27 [sylvaing]
fantasai: and the new interfaces would be in a separate document
16:32:41 [sylvaing]
fantasai: and we can move the bit that's implemented in CR and beyond
16:34:28 [sylvaing]
kimberly: we as implementors are looking for guidance; we need a document that reflects what browsers do in order to build compatible devices/platforms
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16:35:23 [sylvaing]
howcome: are we interested in investing this kind of effort ?
16:35:24 [fantasai]
[insert^ discussion about the fact that DOM Level 2 Style is on /TR and has not been obsoleted by anything]
16:35:38 [fantasai]
sylvaing: It does keep coming back.
16:35:49 [fantasai]
glazou: But it keeps coming back. We've been discussing this since 10 years ago.
16:35:57 [fantasai]
glazou: Anne invested a lot of time in this spec cleaning it up
16:36:08 [fantasai]
glazou: Form an implementation POV, we're almost exactly at the same point
16:36:28 [fantasai]
dbaron: There's a bunch of things in anne's spec that have been implemented. It's just not the core stuff
16:36:34 [sylvaing]
dbaron: I think there are things in the spec that have been implemented. but a number of things have not been
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16:36:47 [fantasai]
discussion of poking around the style sheet
16:37:07 [sylvaing]
discussion of how many people need editing functionality
16:38:22 [sylvaing]
alan: do we need a testsuite to get implementors interested ?
16:38:42 [arno]
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16:39:00 [fantasai]
sylvaing: There's enough pain that this topic keeps coming back, but not enough that implementers are investing in it
16:39:28 [sylvaing]
tantek: since we agree to have obsoletion noticed in old modules that aren't maintained, I think we should do that for DOM L2 Style and link from the latter to CSSOM
16:39:43 [sylvaing]
bert: but then there is nothing stable anymore
16:39:51 [dino]
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16:39:51 [sylvaing]
tantek: but that is reality and would be honest
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16:40:17 [sylvaing]
annevk: that would be a service to the community, I think. They would at least know what we're working on now
16:40:25 [sylvaing]
bert: it's better but not enough
16:40:53 [fantasai]
annevk: we should at least have a link to the obsoletion email you sent in 2003; adding a link to the CSSOM would be helpful, but not critical imo
16:41:55 [sylvaing]
glazou, jdaggett: the specs are not understandable or usable hence the attraction of jQuery as a way to use the OM
16:42:29 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: is it OK to mark specific sections as obsolete at least ?
16:42:32 [sylvaing]
glazou: yes
16:42:54 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: so CSS values in DOM L2 Style in marked invalid, not the entire spec
16:43:03 [sylvaing]
hober: that can also be marked at the top
16:43:14 [sylvaing]
glazou: I don't want the entire document to be obsoleted
16:43:56 [sylvaing]
plinss: is the problem unaware of the Editor's Draft ? is that the problem ?
16:44:34 [MoZ]
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16:44:42 [fantasai]
various people giving examples of this actually being a problem
16:45:00 [sylvaing]
dbaron: there are 2 threads here; the value API and the representation of style sheets e.g. at-rules
16:45:33 [sylvaing]
glazou: I don't understand why we don't have a requirements document for this
16:45:54 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Add obsoletion notice stating which sections of DOM Level 2 style are obsolete, links to Bert's obsoletion notice, and links to the CSSOM editor's draft
16:46:19 [sylvaing]
RESOLVED: add a notice to the top DOM L2 Style indicating portions of the spec are obsolete linking to Bert's email and linking to CSSOM. Also, the specific obsolete section of DOM L2 Style must be marked as such
16:46:26 [r12a]
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16:47:03 [fantasai]
ACTION Tab: Draft note on DOM Level 2 Style
16:47:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-395 - Draft note on DOM Level 2 Style [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2011-11-08].
16:48:02 [sylvaing]
fantasai: once we agree on the draft notice, we can resolve a PER
16:49:08 [sylvaing]
dbaron: the things people do with jQuery relates to the value API; editing tools need both the value API as well as the stylesheet traversal interface. The latter is not that hard but the current specs are inconsistent and poorly written, but 80% right
16:49:39 [sylvaing]
dbaron: we decided to throw out the value API and rewrite it but the new API is a draft that no one has implemented
16:49:49 [fantasai]
annevk: Only part of the values API is there
16:49:58 [fantasai]
dbaron: If someone tried to implement it, what would happen?
16:50:26 [sylvaing]
sylvaing: does one need to implement it in the engine or could it be experimented with in JS ?
16:50:30 [fantasai]
jdaggett: If it's not a big API...
16:50:32 [sylvaing]
annevk: it could be done in JS
16:50:34 [fantasai]
dbaron: It's a pretty big API
16:51:39 [fantasai]
jdaggett: It seems we have two modules here. I keep hearing that we need something in a firmer state, and the Values API is not in that state
16:51:46 [fantasai]
annevk: I don't think we need to split the draft.
16:52:36 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: I think the stylesheet traversal API has more impact on new features
16:53:04 [sylvaing]
dbaron: it depends on the feature. if we implement the new values API, this would impact CSS3 Fonts features e.g. font-feature-settings would need a whole object model
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16:53:49 [sylvaing]
jadaggett, dbaron: there is no consistency of design among the at-rule definitions across modules
16:54:03 [sylvaing]
annevk: shouldn't that be solved by review ?
16:54:10 [sylvaing]
tab: we should have guidelines before review
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16:55:11 [sylvaing]
dbaron: the OM for keyframes rule looks different from what's in 2.1 but it was already implemented so I followed the same model.
16:55:40 [arno]
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16:56:14 [anne]
I have to go in four minutes
16:56:30 [sylvaing]
dbaron: as far as we can tell, it's unclear that the people who use these interfaces care about these inconsistencies
16:56:39 [fantasai]
Florian: The people who care do not give sufficient feedback
16:57:11 [sylvaing]
dbaron: one of the ways we judge interest in things is based on feedback on obvious problems
16:57:54 [sylvaing]
glazou: and maybe they don't have to comment because there are shims like jQuery which deal with the problem
16:57:55 [fantasai]
plinss: If something is bad enough, people look at it and decide it's way to unstable, way too much of a mess, to comment on
16:58:14 [sylvaing]
dbaron: that is the values API, not the stylesheet interface. they're not the same thing.
16:59:06 [sylvaing]
fantasai: I edit a lot of specs. I don't know what I need to put in my spec about serialization, OM, values API. I don't know what to do in CSS3 because there is nothing stable for me to build on top of
16:59:33 [sylvaing]
fantasai: once I have something stable then I can reference it and update my modules.
16:59:58 [sylvaing]
fantasai: maybe serialization is stable enough so I could reference it but if stable and unstable things are in the same module I don't know what to do
17:00:01 [tcelik]
I've updated with notes about what people have claimed are author demands. More evidence / statements welcome.
17:01:25 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: I think we need to have someone else co-edit to ensure we document implementation reality
17:01:56 [fantasai]
glazou: John is proposing to have a document reflecting current implementations
17:02:09 [fantasai]
glazou: I'm not sure that the current implementations are so inconsistent that this is undoable
17:02:28 [fantasai]
glazou: Getting a stable spec, that only consists of the stable specs, I don't know that that's useful
17:02:37 [fantasai]
Florian: If you ask me what the stable parts are, I have no idea.
17:02:56 [fantasai]
jdaggett: I think there is value here. If you have a spec that focuses the set of features that have impelemtnations, even if they are inconsistent,
17:03:08 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Trying to iron out those variations, that's value. Even if it's not sexy, it's still value.
17:03:24 [fantasai]
jdaggett: I don't know that it has to be another spec, but we need to get the existing CSSOM spec ...
17:03:47 [fantasai]
glazou: I think what you want is a better use of our time to add warning notes to the current DOM Level 2 spec than what you're proposing
17:03:54 [fantasai]
arronei: This is what our test suites do
17:04:13 [fantasai]
Tantek: I'm going to object John's assertion that we need another oc-editor, the editor's draft was lately updated
17:04:21 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Editing the draft doesn't ensure it's moving towards something stable
17:04:38 [lgombos_]
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17:04:46 [fantasai]
Tantek: Let's work cooperatively within existing mechanism
17:04:47 [dcosta]
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17:05:06 [fantasai]
Tantek: Oftentimes when another editor is needed for something, it's not due..
17:05:26 [fantasai]
Florian: Anne is not interested in documenting the existing bits,, he 
17:05:41 [glazou]
17:06:04 [sylvaing]
tantek: writing down what works today, I just want to establish how. can we write it down on the wiki page ?
17:06:29 [sylvaing]
tantek: i just want to capture the request that we want to know what implementations do
17:06:59 [arno]
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17:07:10 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Anne is definitely the right guy for the values API, but he's not interested in doing the documenting existing stuff
17:07:23 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Putting things on a wiki page doesn't make them happen
17:07:35 [fantasai]
szilles: you can't tell whether they'll happen until you put them there
17:07:46 [fantasai]
<br duration=5m>
17:15:05 [fantasai]
17:15:12 [fantasai]
Topic: IDPF Joint WG meeting
17:15:15 [fantasai]
+Brady Duga
17:15:18 [fantasai]
+Bill McCoy
17:15:22 [fantasai]
+Peter Sorotkin
17:15:41 [fantasai]
duga: The Advanced Layout group of IPDF is going to begin work shortly
17:15:54 [fantasai]
duga: our members have been clamoring for more powerful design, adaptive design, for page layout
17:16:10 [fantasai]
duga: Right now when people want to do high design, they go back to JPEG, abspos, things that don't work well for multiple-size devices
17:16:20 [fantasai]
duga: A proposal was made by adobe in PEU3 for more adaptive layout
17:16:25 [bradk]
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17:16:34 [fantasai]
duga: Didn't make it into 3, but portions of it turned into CSS Regions and Exclusions
17:16:42 [fantasai]
duga: There's still a whole bunch of things not in those specs
17:16:48 [ChrisWilson]
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17:16:52 [dino]
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17:16:54 [fantasai]
duga: There's still a lot of clamoring for advanced adaptive layout features in a very short timeframe
17:17:12 [fukuno]
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17:17:15 [fantasai]
jdaggett: There's a bi disconnect that I see between the way EPUB makes their specifications and the work that actually needs to get done.
17:17:33 [fantasai]
jdaggett: If you define a schedule and then try to match features to that schedule, anyone in software will tell you that that doesn't work
17:17:40 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Especially where complexity is involved
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17:17:47 [fantasai]
jdaggett: And when you talk about compelx layouts in CSS, that's by def complex
17:18:01 [fantasai]
bill: The reason we're here is to make sure whe ahve a connection
17:18:12 [fantasai]
jdaggett: A schedule-driven process will not get you something that will be interoperable.
17:18:25 [fantasai]
jdaggett: The way EPUB has operated i nthe past is on-schedule. Whatever you're delivering is built on quicksand
17:18:25 [Bert]
-> IDPF Advanced Adaptive Layout working group charter
17:18:31 [fantasai]
jdaggett: You're referencing working drafts of this WG, and those chang.e
17:18:54 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Rather than talk about scheduling, it's much more important to look at for the work of this group, where are the problems that are holding up things. And contribute from that angle. Rather than ctalking about scheduling
17:19:15 [fantasai]
jdaggett: I think basically proposals are here. Would be more helpful if members at EPUB were focusing on what is needed to work out the problems associated with the various feature sthat re being proposed.
17:19:36 [fantasai]
jdaggett: I see this a lot in vertical text layou. EPUB comes with a eature list, but when you have to figure out how these thigns actually work, participation is lacking.
17:19:58 [fantasai]
bill: We ant to make sure participation is there and we contribute to broad open web andd assume open web wants to evolve to handle needs of publishing
17:20:02 [tantek]
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17:20:07 [fantasai]
bill: Over time we're getting closer and closer.
17:20:29 [fantasai]
bill: EPUB2 referenced subset of CSS
17:20:58 [fantasai]
bill: EPUB3 took a different approach. We followed the recommendation from the liaison to prefix things, etc.
17:21:11 [fantasai]
jdaggett: We also had ppl form this group of not referencing WDs
17:21:19 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Do what you want, but this will not get you interop
17:21:28 [fantasai]
bill: The market demands were movin on anyway
17:21:39 [fantasai]
dbaron: One thing you mentioned was seeking eventual alignment with web technology.
17:21:53 [fantasai]
dbaron: One of the dangers there if you take a snapshot of a WD is that either one of two things will happen
17:22:08 [fantasai]
dbaron: one is that the set of implementations doing EPUB will be different from Web technology, or same implementations plus flags
17:22:35 [fantasai]
dbaron: And you'll end up with converging implementations within EPUB and converging implementations within the Web, and those two groups diverging
17:22:52 [fantasai]
dbaron: The other possibility is that you'll have common implementations, and one or the other set of specs will end up bein ignored in reality
17:23:27 [fantasai]
szilles: I completely agree with points by john and david, but we are sort of faced with 2 orgs trying to find an effective mechanism for cooperating. They have different constraints.
17:23:34 [fantasai]
szilles: The warnings you express are valid
17:23:56 [fantasai]
szilles: But more productive than trying to change how they're operating, is trying to minimize these kinds of issues or find ways for efffective coperation.
17:24:17 [fantasai]
szilles: In particular one of these seems to be for EPUB to prioritize the feature list, so if we can only tackle some of it we know what to tackle fro myour side
17:24:37 [fantasai]
glazou: Since I'm myself writing an EPUB2/3 editor, taken a look at all the editors , tools, renderers.
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17:24:48 [fantasai]
glazou: Most of them are based on web engines
17:25:12 [fantasai]
glazou: The Web industry and EBOOK industry share the app layer
17:25:22 [fantasai]
glazou: I don't think they are ogoing to be two different layers of runtimes
17:25:32 [fantasai]
glazou: one for web and one for ebook
17:25:42 [fantasai]
bill: We took decision in EPUB3 on buying that assumption
17:25:57 [fantasai]
bill: Could have moved towards more DocBOok like vocab. Instead reference HTML5/CSS all-in
17:26:06 [fantasai]
bill: Taking hoewver the reality that some of those won't be fully baked
17:26:18 [fantasai]
bill: Decision was popular with vendors, lead to thinks like Apple iBooks based on WebKit
17:26:29 [fantasai]
bill: Downside is that widely adopted modules that are WD
17:26:45 [fantasai]
bill: CSS2.1 is baseline, but 9 modules referenced by EPUB3
17:26:56 [fantasai]
bill: But all of those have some implementation
17:27:03 [fantasai]
bill: We would like guidance from CSSWG.
17:27:09 [fantasai]
bill: We are not W3C.
17:28:04 [fantasai]
bill: As soon as there's cross-browser implementation, we're using those features
17:28:06 [fantasai]
bill: We're here today because we ant to develop an optional add-on module to EPUB.
17:28:31 [fantasai]
jdaggett: I'm telling you that within this group we've had ppl say "we have to do this this way because impl for EPUB already do this this way"
17:28:36 [fantasai]
jdaggett: That's not the right way.
17:28:55 [fantasai]
jdaggett: If it's something that's funamentally wrong, I don't buy that argument.
17:29:23 [fantasai]
bill: We took the decision, knowing that our maintenance strategy for unfinished specs, would be to rev EPUB .1 .2
17:29:42 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Go back to what brady said, Adaptive layout is a minefield.
17:29:56 [fantasai]
jdaggett: It's very complex, it's hard to get right. if you start snapshotting, you will run into trouble.
17:30:05 [fantasai]
glazou: You said cross-browser implementations, you'll add to EPUB
17:30:28 [fantasai]
glazou: It's not beacuse we have cross-browser implementation of something at some point that the spec is stable
17:30:39 [fantasai]
glazou: for us the only moment we can say something is stable enough is when we move from CR to PR.
17:30:44 [fantasai]
glazou: The good example is gradients.
17:31:02 [fantasai]
glazou: We have four incompatible specs for gradients.
17:31:10 [fantasai]
glazou: At some point we may have 2 or 3 compatible implementation
17:31:19 [fantasai]
glazou: If you rely on temporary stuff, if it's not a recommendation
17:31:43 [fantasai]
Florian: I think Steve is a valid point. If we have a scehdule, a feature set, and a quality requirement
17:31:50 [fantasai]
Florain: i.e. spec is advanced enough
17:31:59 [fantasai]
Florian: We can't have these things all at the same time
17:32:09 [fantasai]
Florian: Prioritizing your features is important.
17:32:23 [fantasai]
Florian: We can try to push ahead faster with higher priority things.
17:32:38 [fantasai]
Florian: We have a lot of things, some of which you care, some not so much.
17:32:50 [fantasai]
Florian: We won't exclusively work on your things, but we can give it more wieght
17:33:20 [fantasai]
Florian: We are quality-driven, you are schedule driven. The only way to work together is prioritizing
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17:33:58 [fantasai]
smfr: the othe rissue of snapshotting WDs is that it puts a burden on implementers
17:34:15 [fantasai]
smfr: We have to maintain old behavior for compatibility, that we really don't want to have to maintain
17:34:27 [fantasai]
smfr: In Ebkit we try to avoid flags, "we are rendering epub"
17:34:38 [fantasai]
smfr: We might not even be aware that EPUB snapshotted some draft spec
17:34:52 [myakura]
17:35:05 [fantasai]
Markus: I totally understand where you guys are coming from. Because if you don't push the needle, you wind up with ... Amazon
17:35:27 [fantasai]
Markus: I think he solution to this problem is prioritization Florian brought up. So if you keep separation of content and style
17:35:37 [fantasai]
Markus: We of course don't work on content
17:35:41 [fantasai]
Markus: That is best model to work forward
17:36:11 [fantasai]
szilles: In category of requirements, might be useful to look at what Peter proposed to IDPF as kinds of things publishers are looking for
17:36:29 [fantasai]
duga: Charter does list some priorities, and I epxect next few days we'll see more concrete proposal
17:36:48 [fantasai]
duga: We're defining these as a vendor extesion, but will show what we might depend on.
17:37:04 [fantasai]
duga: You might not do adpative layout on our schedule, but o we depend on calc(), or CSS regions,
17:37:07 [fantasai]
17:37:11 [howard]
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17:37:17 [fantasai]
bill: We need to work together with those.
17:37:33 [fantasai]
szilles: We've had demos from MS and Opera of paginated documents, so they're very much on the structure.
17:37:38 [fantasai]
(using CSS)
17:38:00 [fantasai]
szilles: They are going in that particular direction, so showing the PGT sort of things is relevant. It's written on top of HTML and CSS
17:38:17 [fantasai]
hober: I tihkn echoing florian and john...
17:38:23 [mmielke]
Correction: Amazon is having a model that is based on REC specs (CSS2.1 capabilites) and do not rely on specs in working drafts
17:38:39 [fantasai]
hober: I think there's a diff between source of dependence of WDs in EPUB3 and this new high-design module whatever
17:38:55 [fantasai]
hober: It's one thing to epub-prefix writing modes
17:39:09 [fantasai]
hober: But this last couple days, I've seen some very interesting and very different proposals for doing these kinds fo layouts
17:39:28 [fantasai]
hober: so different that even if we make an amazing amount of progres sin the next 6months, I have no idea what it's going to look like
17:39:51 [fantasai]
hober: Baking in something like regions is petrifying.
17:40:18 [jdaggett_]
fantasai: our specs have different phases
17:40:39 [jdaggett_]
fantasai: you really don't want to depend on something that's not in the stabilizing phase
17:41:03 [jdaggett_]
fantasai: all the layout proposals are in the completely unstable phase
17:41:20 [fantasai]
bill: If you say we shouldn't reference something, then we won't.
17:41:35 [fantasai]
bill: We want to have publishers avoid creating proprietary features
17:41:57 [alexmog]
17:41:57 [fantasai]
howcome: I agree with steve there is strong interested in moving to on-screen pages, so we have common interests
17:42:14 [fantasai]
howcome: My concern with some of these e.g. regions is that they are quite complex and they will take a long time to stabilize
17:42:35 [fantasai]
howcome: My demo shows that we can do 90% without adding a single property in CSS
17:42:49 [fantasai]
bill: The pages things in Opera is awesome. I was showing it at a conference just recently.
17:43:03 [fantasai]
bill: However, that's not what makes EPUB tick. The EPUB content isn't content that paginates.
17:43:05 [Bert]
q+ to ask about ways to do liaisons
17:43:09 [fantasai]
bill: It's ... orchestrated
17:43:16 [fantasai]
17:43:29 [fantasai]
bill: I welcome paged views, but it's not what EPUB has
17:43:41 [fantasai]
bill: That's EPUB2 level. We have picturebooks, magazines, etc.
17:43:45 [dbaron]
q+ jdaggett
17:43:55 [fantasai]
bill: template-based stuff
17:44:03 [duga]
AAL charter:
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17:44:24 [fantasai]
alex: I might be a little confused with teh background, what you're saying "us", is this EPUB or is this advanced adaptive layout charter group
17:44:44 [fantasai]
bill: My immediate agenda item is coordination around advanced layout, but first issues raised are about genera principles of IDPF
17:44:49 [fantasai]
standardization practice
17:44:53 [JohnJansen]
zakim, who is on the q?
17:44:54 [Zakim]
I see alexmog, Bert, jdaggett on the speaker queue
17:45:01 [dbaron]
ack alexmog
17:45:07 [fantasai]
bill: IDPF is a trade associate of publishers and ppl working in publishing. Very focused on publications, with a range from trade books to more compelx pbulications
17:45:15 [plinss]
ack alexmog
17:45:17 [fantasai]
alex: ... how much youre' going there.
17:45:31 [fantasai]
alex Around 10 years ago, MS had an epub format which was subset of HTML+CSS
17:45:55 [fantasai]
alex: It seems that in advanced layout is that you're willing to very divergent standizing of something
17:46:00 [fantasai]
alex: is this something we should do in tihs group?
17:46:04 [fantasai]
bill; that would be fantastic
17:46:18 [fantasai]
bill: We asked W3C staff for review of our charter
17:46:32 [fantasai]
bill: We're trying to meet the timeline of our members
17:46:45 [fantasai]
bill: We are a date-driven organization, not so much quality
17:46:50 [dbaron]
bill: we didn't receive comments on the charter from CSSWG members
17:47:02 [fantasai]
bill: ... We're trying to get things out the door, and will accept the risks of some things fail.
17:47:06 [fantasai]
bill: more like a startup
17:47:14 [szilles]
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17:47:24 [szilles]
17:47:32 [fantasai]
alex: You can have 8-month completely standard for a paginated document book and magazine layout and it will be ready for publication and have implementations? *skeptical*
17:47:43 [dbaron]
q+ hober
17:47:44 [fantasai]
bill: yes. were' generalizing work that a member has already done
17:47:49 [szilles]
q+ to show example document
17:47:59 [hober]
17:48:04 [fantasai]
peter: I'm from adobe, I'm member of IDPF WG.
17:48:11 [dbaron]
peter == Peter Sorotokin
17:48:21 [fantasai]
peters: We have a lot of idfferences, not only how the standards is driven, but also how these documeents actually live
17:48:29 [fantasai]
peters: Complex websites get updated daily. Books don't
17:48:40 [fantasai]
peters: The JS on the Web, you can't afford for books on the web.
17:48:56 [fantasai]
peters: You want to publish it and forget about it, not maintain it.
17:48:57 [fantasai]
peters: Puts a lot of pressure for having declartive ways of doing things.
17:49:01 [fantasai]
peters: pressure is very differernt
17:49:17 [fantasai]
peters: I was voicing a lot of similar concerns about referencing CSS WDs in IDPF
17:49:25 [fantasai]
peters: A lot of these references come from East Asian market
17:49:42 [fantasai]
peters: There are competing standards there. If we give up and not do it for 2 years, it's saying we won't do EBooks with CSS.
17:50:00 [fantasai]
peters: You're lucky, there is no CSSX, nobody is trying to fork it or do someting completely different.
17:50:08 [fantasai]
peters: We have this problem in ebooks, we cannot ignore
17:50:26 [fantasai]
peters: One of our considerations for advanced layout proposal is to make sure it can be implemented today on top of existing browsers
17:50:39 [fantasai]
peters: As long as we can do it today, we can be sure we can do it in future borwsers.
17:50:46 [fantasai]
peters: That simpliefies the javascript.
17:50:54 [fantasai]
peters: You'd need to augment your presentation with JS
17:51:02 [fantasai]
peters: There is no requirement for JS in the publishing world as in browser
17:51:18 [fantasai]
peters: iT's possible to move forward with moving creating more properties and eatures without touching the browser at all
17:51:22 [plinss]
ack Bert
17:51:22 [Zakim]
Bert, you wanted to ask about ways to do liaisons
17:51:36 [jdaggett_]
ack Bert
17:51:58 [fantasai]
Bert: My conclusion so far is that we can only influence each others time scales so much, so how do we limit the damange?
17:52:02 [fantasai]
Bert: two wasy to do that
17:52:19 [fantasai]
Bert: One is to have timely info from EPUB of what they mean, so we can within the littel flexiblity we have, to work on their things faster
17:52:36 [fantasai]
Bert: Also would be a good thing if we can give advice regularly to EPUB to avoid that they make too many mistakes
17:52:40 [dbaron]
q+ to ask about future epub versions
17:52:46 [fantasai]
Bert: Steer you into somehting that's a littel bit safe. How do we make sure that happen?
17:53:01 [fantasai]
Bert: Way to do that is liaisons, need people on both sides to communicate
17:53:13 [fantasai]
Bert: maybe I should take some responsibility for that, it's in scope for my work anyway.
17:53:27 [fantasai]
Bert: Maybe bring other people along to join meetings/telecons
17:53:39 [fantasai]
Bert: Talking to each other is best way
17:53:54 [fantasai]
Bert: Peter siad books cannot be changed. That means you need even more stable standards than the web browsers.
17:54:00 [fantasai]
Bert: So you really need things that are extremely stable
17:54:23 [fantasai]
Bert: You want to buy a book and 10 years still read it
17:54:28 [alexmog]
17:54:40 [fantasai]
bill: We had a lot of help from fantasai for EPUB3, but she was clear that she couldn't represent full bandwith of CSSWG
17:54:47 [glazou]
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17:54:56 [fantasai]
bill: I thin future of publishing in digital world is up for grab, some overlap with widgets and webapps
17:55:04 [fantasai]
bill: various points of synergy
17:55:27 [fantasai]
peterl: I in process of joining the EPUB group. I think you'll have interst in CSSWG to work with you guys. There would be good to have ppl from EPUB to join us on a regular basis
17:55:32 [plinss]
ack jdaggett
17:55:45 [fantasai]
jdaggett: To your point about schedule and having things that you need to ship immediately.
17:55:48 [fantasai]
jdaggett: that's ifne.
17:56:08 [plinss]
ack hober
17:56:16 [arronei_]
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17:56:17 [fantasai]
jdaggett: In the case of adaptive layout, you need to communicate to ppl in your organization, that by standardizing on your time scale, you pretty much guarantee incompat with future web standards
17:56:42 [fantasai]
peters: The point we're trying to achieve, you can develop an EPUB UA on to p of the browser using JavaScript
17:56:49 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Whether that's possible, I cannot tell you
17:56:54 [fantasai]
jdaggett: It's not standardized
17:57:23 [fantasai]
Florian: Sometimes specs are more stable and not marked at such. In this case we're alking about stuff that's really really unstable
17:57:44 [fantasai]
hober: What bill said earlier, that EPUB is trying to be very agile organization. THink it's a very great term, want to hit on the vialbe part
17:58:04 [fantasai]
hober: Like Florian said, if you have [3 things], there's inherent ension there.
17:58:15 [JohnJansen]
17:58:16 [fantasai]
hober: To resolve you're best off dropping features
17:58:22 [fantasai]
17:58:35 [fantasai]
bill: We're clear on that, but our main focus of where compat is
17:58:50 [fantasai]
bill: We want that markup produced by tool like InDesign will work in the future
17:59:00 [fantasai]
bill: More important than compat with Web
17:59:04 [fantasai]
s/future/future epub readers/
17:59:09 [plinss]
ack szilles
17:59:09 [Zakim]
szilles, you wanted to show example document
17:59:22 [fantasai]
szilles: Let me try to say what peters was saying in slightly different words.
17:59:43 [fantasai]
szilles: there is a presumption in a number of the comments that the features that go into EPUB3+ are features that need to go into CSS
18:00:07 [howard]
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18:00:18 [fantasai]
szilles: What peter is saying is slightly different. Pter is saying that CSS today provides enough capbility with JS to take a declarative language and present what you see on the screen
18:00:23 [tcelik]
I'm a little confused about the confusion around communicating stability of CSS specs, isn't that what Beijing did/does (2007, 2010) ?
18:00:38 [fantasai]
szilles: Adobe has been trying to pieces of that mechanism that are hard to replicate in JS and migrate them into CSS
18:00:52 [fantasai]
szilles: on a timescale that fits with CSS. Because there are solutions that work in the interim
18:01:02 [fantasai]
szilles: Regions would make these demos easier to do.
18:01:13 [fantasai]
alan: But these demos don't depend on any of the new stuff
18:01:32 [fantasai]
szilles: There are other things like line grid that can't be done in JS, and we'd need to move within CSSWG
18:01:45 [fantasai]
szilles: So agreeing on those pieces is the most important thing we can do
18:02:30 [fantasai]
Florian: What you said is imporant to me. Your highest priority is not necessary what should be our priority, since you can do much of this without us.
18:02:57 [fantasai]
bill: ...
18:03:53 [fantasai]
bill: From my pov, even if something's implementable in JS, if we nevertheless use a similar markup... or create our own, it could be a problem later
18:04:00 [dbaron]
ack dbaron
18:04:00 [Zakim]
dbaron, you wanted to ask about future epub versions
18:04:06 [fantasai]
bill: Don't want to sweep that under the table and say we're not worrying about it.
18:04:30 [fantasai]
dbaron: You've mentioned that when you did EPUB3 it was essentially a different format from EPUB2. Is it backwards compatible?
18:04:49 [fantasai]
bill: You could write EPUB3 that works on EPUB2 reader. Also EPUB2 books must work in EPUB3 reader
18:05:05 [fantasai]
dbaron: What if EPUB3 depends on a technology that goes in a different way than this CSSWG goes?
18:05:22 [fantasai]
dbaron: Would future versions of EPUB require the divergent technology? What CSSWG creates? Both?
18:05:37 [fantasai]
duga: In EPUB3 we tried to point out pieces where things are likely to change incompatibly.
18:05:57 [fantasai]
duga: We've committed to advancing with CSS, and pointing out to authors to beware of these potential changes
18:06:07 [glazou]
18:06:20 [fantasai]
bill: EPUB4 might say a ruby property is deprecated and nonconformant in content, but UAs must still implement it
18:06:20 [plinss]
ack alexmog
18:06:24 [fantasai]
Alex: Some questions
18:06:43 [ChrisL]
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18:06:43 [fantasai]
Alex: I'm really surprised we're talking about liaisons and you doing some significant amount of work, but also we're doing here
18:06:56 [fantasai]
Alex: I'm surprised that *I'm* not involved, as someone making major progress on Regions
18:07:02 [fantasai]
Alex: why not talk to us?
18:07:08 [fantasai]
jdaggett: alex editors regions
18:07:21 [fantasai]
alex: Whatever.. finish regions sooner, there are opportunities for us to make parallel progress
18:07:34 [fantasai]
alex: We here need help as well. kindof depressing that I discuss stuff with Vincent and nobody else contributes
18:07:44 [fantasai]
bill: regions is 25% of advanced adaptive layout
18:07:45 [Kai]
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18:07:55 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, here
18:07:55 [RRSAgent]
18:08:13 [fantasai]
Florian: Reigons is a good example. Because it's one of the difficult pieces here, only a few people understand it rest are waiting until they're done
18:08:31 [tcelik]
what's the other 75%?
18:08:32 [fantasai]
Florian: I fppl in your group are working on the same thing, participating here will make these ppl feel a lot less lonely
18:09:14 [fantasai]
alex: My second point is, it seems that something that will get produced in a very short time and targetted at a very specific applications, seems very similar to a company shipping product with publicly document format, designed by one company
18:09:27 [fantasai]
alex: we've done this with MS office format. develpped by one company for its purposes
18:09:30 [fantasai]
alex: Seems similar to me.
18:09:44 [fantasai]
alex: I fyou don't have any requirements for that format to be tied to CSS WG, does it belong to W3C?
18:09:50 [stearns]
tcelik: see the charter that was linked above
18:10:07 [fantasai]
alex: Would it be your format that is documented and supported by reader applications, and whatever CSS or HTML requires has ...
18:10:15 [tcelik]
stearns thanks
18:10:19 [plinss]
ack glazou
18:10:23 [fantasai]
alex: ... support forever
18:10:30 [fantasai]
glazou: I have quesiton of prefixed properties you're going to use
18:10:41 [fantasai]
glazou: Say you'll sync with us and drop things not used anymore
18:10:46 [fantasai]
glazou: What if you adopt, e.g. gradients now.
18:11:00 [fantasai]
glazou: Gradients are going to drasticaly change in next 12 months, at which point your gradients are entirely incompatible
18:11:09 [fantasai]
glazou: It's not about dropping version, but changing the value of that property
18:11:19 [fantasai]
glazou: The books in the old eversion would be incompat with new one
18:11:25 [fantasai]
bill: Alias would be maintianed
18:11:41 [fantasai]
bill: One option, reader detects 3.0 vs 3.1 and ...
18:11:55 [fantasai]
peters: We would wait until you reached CR, even if we have our epub gradient
18:12:03 [fantasai]
peters: Once you reach CR, we would import your stuff and be done iwth it
18:12:15 [fantasai]
glazou: It's unlikely between editing tools for EPUB would be different than Web
18:12:20 [fantasai]
glazou: You chose HTML+CSS
18:12:28 [fantasai]
glazou: Again the rendering engines are going to be the same
18:12:37 [fantasai]
glazou: so having -epub-prefixed properties does not make sense
18:12:42 [fantasai]
glazou: Editing tools won't deal with that
18:12:53 [fantasai]
glazou: You are not doing editing tool, you're doing a converter
18:13:05 [fantasai]
bill: we agree with premise of minimizing prefixed properties
18:13:06 [tcelik]
stearns, captured on the CSSWG wiki:
18:13:14 [fantasai]
bill: Only 3: text, speech, and ruby are used prefixed
18:13:25 [fantasai]
bill: And those are generally for east asian typography
18:13:38 [fantasai]
bill: we would prefer not to have prefixed properties, no question
18:13:45 [fantasai]
bill: We want EPUB ot be portable documents base don open web
18:14:21 [fantasai]
szilles: Actionable items I heard were to increase liaison participation in both groups
18:14:39 [fantasai]
szilles: Bert volunteered to get involved in IDPF. Can we ask IDPF group to expand liaison with our organization?
18:14:48 [fantasai]
glazou: We have a lot of things to discuss together.
18:15:01 [fantasai]
bill: A mechanistic point, several of the key IPDF members have presence in CSSWG
18:15:05 [fantasai]
bill: Adobe, Google, Apple
18:15:09 [tcelik]
Can we ask IDPF to directly participate in CSS spec discussions on www-style?
18:15:16 [tcelik]
18:15:37 [fantasai]
bill: Might ask for redundant representation, but not up to us
18:16:00 [fantasai]
glazou: We need coordination between two groups. Not the same thing as coordination between members.
18:16:20 [fantasai]
szilles: Getting more participation from ppl not reprsented at the table today, more likely to have informative opinions and users
18:16:31 [fantasai]
szilles: We have a lot of technologists at the table, far less users.
18:16:41 [fantasai]
szilles: Unerstanding what's being asked for is a difficulty
18:17:14 [fantasai]
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18:43:31 [TabAtkins_]
scribenick: TabAtkins_
18:43:41 [TabAtkins_]
florian: Extra agenda item - CSS3 Text, talking about text-transform
18:44:13 [bradk]
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18:44:14 [TabAtkins_]
sylvaing: Extra agenda item - discuss how to move some of the current specs with lots of impl xp.
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18:45:49 [bradk]
xp = experience points?
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18:48:15 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: I'm thinking there are N new tests, and I'm wondering when they're going to be moved into a snapshot.
18:48:25 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: And what it means if we don't have two impls passing those new tests.
18:48:47 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: To the 2nd q, it doesn't mean anything - we're just moving to better interop. It doesn't revoke our Rec status.
18:49:16 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: To the 1st q, I think somebody needs to make sure everything's in order and nothing's been lost (general vetting), and then we can just create a new snapshot any time.
18:49:34 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: Should we have a regular schedule for that, so I can predictably work on it? Otherwise things tend to sit.
18:49:41 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Sounds good. What schedule do you want?
18:50:01 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: I think it should be in conjunction with publishing errata, so tests over the new errata show up at the same time.
18:50:10 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: I think that makes a lot of sense, it's a no-brainer.
18:50:33 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Gerard's been reviewing a bunch of tests, and have a bunch flagged now with problems, but no one's working on them.
18:50:44 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: I think one of the challenges is prioritization.
18:51:00 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: Gerard is making a lot of comments (others too) - some are corrections, some are improvements.
18:51:17 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: But they get the same prioritization. I'd like to prioritize a correction versus an optional improvement.
18:51:22 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: We should jump on errors.
18:51:47 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: When I come into work in the morning, though, I dunno if I should work on 2.1 tests or css3 new tests.
18:51:58 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: We've got a lot of specs approaching CR or even Rec that need tests.
18:52:04 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: But I've got a finite amount of time in my day.
18:52:13 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: So some help in prioritizing would be helpful.
18:52:28 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: You also wanted a snapshot at the time of errata pub.
18:52:43 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I'm not sure how long it takes to go from PER to Rec, but we are *way* behind on tracking 2.1 issues.
18:52:51 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: Right. It's never on the agenda.
18:53:09 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: And simple, I stopped tracking them - I switched to other specs. I was never even an editor, but I was doing most of the tracking.
18:53:34 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: So we need somebody to track the issues for 2.1. They need to start now, track into the future, and move backwards to the LC deadline, which is a lot of stuff.
18:53:45 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: And once we have a list, we can do a few issues each telcon and make progress.
18:53:56 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: And make sure that resolutions end up in the errata and the draft.
18:54:11 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: And I am *not* volunteering to do that.
18:54:16 [tpod]
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18:54:27 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: We can't have a new errata until someone takes it up.
18:54:40 [fantasai]
18:54:49 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: yesterday we made a decision on margin-collapsing that needs to go in, for example, and it should be tracked.
18:54:54 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Theoretically it should be in bugzilla.
18:55:16 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: I've been lax about this, but I'm going to go through and extract things to Bugzilla.
18:55:26 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: I'll start when I get back to my office.
18:55:53 [dbaron] says "Last mailing list sweep 2011-01-07 – arronei "
18:55:53 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: If you can maintain a date range that you have definitely covered, that would be very useful.
18:56:15 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: So if somebody decides to help you, they can just start at the last date you've touched and work backwards.
18:56:39 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: I'll edit the 2.1 issues wiki to say that new issues go to Bugzilla.
18:57:06 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: But we can still keep the mailing list sweep dates here in the wiki.
18:57:17 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: And there's a bunch of open issues here in the wiki that need to migrate.
18:57:28 [szilles]
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18:57:38 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: Last idea - encourage the focus to fall on CSS3 modules, from a testing perspective, rather than continuing to focus exclusively on 2.1.
18:58:05 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: One thing to keep in mind is that all tests in 2.1 are a subset of the tests we'll need in css3.
18:58:24 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: So for B&B3, we'll just take all the relevant tests from 2.1, convert to reftest if possible, and then augment with new tests.
18:58:41 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Because that's easier than just writing entirely new tests.
18:59:31 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: In most cases, that's nothing more than adding a new spec link to the existing test. No moving, no copying, just add a new link and Shepherd will pick it up and track.
18:59:53 [gsnedders]
How does Shepherd cope with tests becoming reftests?
19:00:33 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: Even if we moved all the 2.1 tests for B&B to B&B tests, we're still not complete.
19:00:35 [plinss]
not an issue, it just adds the reference
19:00:36 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: So should we prioritize writing more css3 tests, or continue prioritizing 2.1.
19:00:55 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: We need both, but we should prioritize writing new tests for 3.
19:00:59 [gilles]
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19:01:09 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: If people outside the WG want to work on 2.1, we should support them, though.
19:01:25 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: Agreed, but I'm not sure that we should *encourage* them to work on 2.1.
19:01:42 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: As a WG, we should give guidance to people who want to participate, and we should guide them to work on 3.
19:01:56 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: Two types of tests - one is to validate the spec, and one is to improve interop.
19:02:09 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: For the former, the priority should be writing for css3. For the latter...
19:02:21 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: I don't want to discourage 2.1 tests. We're still undertesting parts of the spec.
19:03:13 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: So if someone comes up and says "I want to work on tests", we should encourage specific css3 tests.
19:03:22 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: But if they want to work on 2.1 tests specifically, that's cool.
19:03:53 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: We should have a list of specs that need testing help, but Gerard, for example, really wants to work on 2.1 interop, and that's fine.
19:04:11 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: We can put a list on the wiki of specs that are in maintenance and could use tests.
19:04:31 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: And additionally, we don't know and can't really track what parts of 2.1 need tests, we just have sort of a gut feeling.
19:04:36 [howard]
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19:04:40 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: We can provide rough guidance there too, though.
19:05:10 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: My preferred idea is that we're just done with 2.1, it's Rec, and we have a regular maintenance schedule, but it's not a living spec that needs active attention.
19:05:44 [TabAtkins_]
arronei: We need a per-spec maintenance schedule.
19:05:53 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Probably in conjunction with the snapshot.
19:06:09 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: We don't have anything new to snapshot yet, but we have a lot of things to errata.
19:06:34 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I don't see anything being added to the 2010 snapshot that's not already in the 2011 snapshot.
19:06:48 [TabAtkins_]
arronei: Why not put errata in there?
19:07:10 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: We can have a list of "these specs are in Rec, here's their errata", etc.
19:07:42 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Right now we just list the stable things and link to the spec. So that's no change.
19:08:14 [duga]
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19:08:37 [TabAtkins_]
arronei: I think it's good to publish an annual snapshot anyway. I want to see the 2011 snapshot, not the 2010 snapshot.
19:08:53 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: It's difficult to tell the difference between "there was no change, so no updates" and "the spec is dead, and it's out-of-date".
19:09:06 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: And without a deadline to the issue tracking, work will grow to fill the alloted time.
19:09:31 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: With a specific once-per-year date or something, we know when things are expected and have a push to get the necessary things done.
19:09:56 [TabAtkins_]
arronei: I'm hearing that we want a maintenance schedule. Should we set one up for 2.1 right now?
19:10:12 [TabAtkins_]
arronei: And beyond that, each spec can have its own schedule (or hook into the existing one, we can evaluate per module).
19:10:19 [TabAtkins_]
arronei: But we should at least nail down 2.1's schedule.
19:10:25 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: PLH suggested republishing every year.
19:10:38 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Should we set a goal to have all issues in the tracker by the Feb meeting? Bert, is that workable?
19:10:41 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: Yes.
19:11:14 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLVED: Have all 2.1 issues filed in bugzilla by the february meeting.
19:11:27 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: I think 2.1 issues are best addressed on the mailing list, not in a f2f.
19:11:44 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Right, this is just a deadline for getting them in a tracker, not resolving them.
19:11:45 [dbaron]
dbaron: We should at least attempt to deal with them on the mailing list before bringing them to a f2f meeting.
19:12:00 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLVED: Publish an updated version of 2.1 and its testsuite annually.
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19:13:09 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLVED: Update the site/wiki/etc to publicly prioritize testing css3 modules rather than 2.1.
19:13:34 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: Once a year seems quite fast. More like every 5 years seems more reasonable.
19:14:06 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: We should keep the once-a-year as a review cycle. If it turns out that the issues are tiny, okay, we'll skip publishing this year.
19:14:17 [TabAtkins_]
PROPOSED EDITED RESOLUTION: Ensure that 2.1 is up-to-date yearly.
19:14:56 [gsnedders]
IMO publishing once a year makes sense if there are non-editorial issues. Even if the issues are tiny it's probably still worth publishing if they have normative consequences.
19:15:05 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Should we commit to publishing an annual snapshot?
19:15:58 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLVED: Publish a snapshot annually.
19:16:21 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I think we should try to address 2.1 issues on the telcon each week.
19:16:26 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Once we get some together, yeah.
19:16:41 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: I think we should try to resolve them on the mailing list first.
19:17:01 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: Yes. But once a proposal appears on the mailling list, quickly discuss it for telcons.
19:17:18 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: Another thing - I don't yet know how to prioritize the comments to the list for the current 2.1 testsuite.
19:17:45 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: If it's invalid, fix it immediately.
19:18:05 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Tests that are imprecise (impls can pass when they actually fail the spec) should be fixed next.
19:18:25 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: And then issues with metadata or reusability are nice-to-fix, but not strictly necessary.
19:18:36 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Every time we snapshot, the first two types should have all been fixed.
19:18:43 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: The last should be fixed as time allows.
19:19:12 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: I agree with that.
19:19:31 [TabAtkins_]
JohnJansen: I don't yet know when I should make sure that's done by.
19:19:48 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: The last pub was June 2011, so the next will be June 2012, since we're doing yearly.
19:20:16 [fantasai]
19:20:16 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLUTION: All issues with the tests (not the testsuite) go to Shepherd.
19:20:25 [fantasai]
19:20:32 [dbaron]
19:21:16 [TabAtkins_]
Topic: B&B issue
19:21:30 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Issue 189.
19:21:48 [fantasai]
19:21:51 [fantasai]
19:21:56 [fantasai]
er ISSUE-189
19:22:05 [fantasai]
19:22:11 [fantasai]
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19:24:00 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Look at the pictures!
19:24:44 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Which of these 4 looks correct?
19:24:48 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: #4
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19:25:36 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: #1 is what IE implements.
19:25:45 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: #2 seems to be hooking up the half-way points of the arc lengths.
19:25:52 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: #3 is the current spec which is totally crazy.
19:26:01 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: #4 is what I think is correct.
19:26:13 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: I think we should look at different border widths.
19:26:44 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I picked this for a specific reason.
19:27:12 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: ...
19:27:39 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: Should border-radius influence what this corner-join should look like?
19:27:49 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: In the absence, it's pretty obvious - you just go corner-to-corner.
19:27:53 [smfr]
19:28:09 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: This diagram shows our logical interpretation which is independent of border-radius.
19:28:26 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: That doesn't work when one of the sides is very narrow or 0.
19:28:41 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: You get a thick border that curves down, and then suddenly changes color at these two triangles, and that looks really bad.
19:28:43 [smfr]
19:29:01 [fantasai]
fantasai^: The reason I chose equal widths is that we know the angle must vary to zero when the width of either side is zero, and there are multiple ways to map the ratio of widths onto angles, but 1:1 is definitely 45deg.
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19:29:10 [fantasai]
fantasai^: The quesiton here is how do you interpret "45deg"
19:29:44 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: Did you consider that the spec is mostly correct, but it should be looking at the curvature of the padding edge instead of border-edge?
19:29:58 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: What if there's no curvature?
19:30:51 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: The underlying algorithm is to find the point on the border curve where the tangent's angle equals the ratio of the border widths.
19:31:46 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: So find the angle that you would have without curvature, take the normal of that, then find the point on the outer curve with a matching tangent.
19:32:00 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: That *sounds* right, but I'm not certain off the top of my head.
19:33:46 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: Based on the fiddle, if we run the algorithm we're thinking of, it would produce the funny backwards-facing transition line that we don't want.
19:34:10 [tcelik]
Frankly, I don't want to resolve this without a designer in the room.
19:34:34 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I *think* you take the ratio of the two widths and apply that to 90deg.
19:34:57 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: Right, that's not our interpretation, and our intepretation is wrong.
19:35:09 [tcelik]
If the goal is some sort of aesthetic ideal, we should base it on input from visual designer(s). Basing it on convenience of math or some approximate visual ideal is probably not a good way to resolve this.
19:35:27 [fantasai]
tcelik: there's one on your left
19:36:16 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: I think it's take the line from the inner to outer corner, invert it over the 45deg line, then take the normal and match the tangent.
19:36:47 [tcelik]
fantasai - and I observe that he's scratching his head.
19:36:54 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: I think I agree with you on the outside point. I'm not certain that "closest point on the inside edge" is correct.
19:38:17 [TabAtkins_]
[some unminuted discussion about inner point]
19:38:40 [tcelik]
ok I think we should issue a public call for proposals for how to resolve this issue (with the visual samples above as an initial set of possibilities, open to others), and then invite visual designers to provide input (on www-style)
19:39:15 [tcelik]
I don't think we should spend further time trying to resolve this among this group in the f2f - I don't think is either a good use of our f2f time, nor will it result in a visually good solution.
19:39:35 [TabAtkins_]
I disagree, tcelik. This is productive so far.
19:41:51 [fantasai]
plinss: You take the angle you'd have without a curve. Mirror it over 45deg (so a r45deg line won't change), then take the normal and find the tangent on the outer curve
19:41:58 [fantasai]
plinss says to take the tangent on the inner curve
19:42:18 [fantasai]
fantasai says she remembers trying that, and it gives bad results -- you want the shortest distance from the chosen outer point
19:43:02 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: I believe a case something like "border-width: thick thin; border-radius: thin thick;" can produce bad transitions with this rule.
19:43:43 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: I think that has the right behavior. It's at least the limit behavior.
19:44:13 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: Actually, this may not be a big deal either. [mutters over details]
19:45:30 [TabAtkins_]
ACTION fantasai to detail the algorithm, and produce mockups for lots of corner cases.
19:45:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-396 - Detail the algorithm, and produce mockups for lots of corner cases. [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-11-08].
19:45:57 [dbaron]
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19:46:29 [florian]
19:46:34 [TabAtkins_]
Topic: text-transform issue
19:46:38 [TabAtkins_]
florian: Look at point 4.
19:47:50 [dbaron]
or, better, which is now "ACTION-396: Detail the algorithm options for position of color transitions on rounded borders, and produce mockups for lots of corner cases."
19:48:30 [TabAtkins_]
jdaggett_: The use-case for text-transform:full-size-kana is that in ruby, small kana is mapped to full kana, because otherwise they're too small to be readable.
19:48:38 [TabAtkins_]
jdaggett_: That's really the only use-case for this transform.
19:48:45 [TabAtkins_]
jdaggett_: And it's relatively small.
19:49:03 [TabAtkins_]
jdaggett_: I propose that instead of doing these small use-cases, we have an at-rule that lets you do arbitrary transformations.
19:49:26 [TabAtkins_]
jdaggett_: So authors can handle these themselves rather than having to come to us and get it included in a spec.
19:49:41 [TabAtkins_]
jdaggett_: I don't think this kana transform is unworthy, but it's a relatively small use-case.
19:49:48 [TabAtkins_]
florian: I think there are two main cases for a mechanism like this.
19:49:59 [TabAtkins_]
florian: First is the full-size-kana case. Well-defined and small.
19:50:17 [TabAtkins_]
florian: Another place where it's useful is removing accents from letters. We can't have a generic algo for this, because it depends on language and context.
19:50:31 [tcelik]
to remove accents?
19:50:33 [TabAtkins_]
florian: But a specific author and specific document can do this.
19:50:53 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Dropping accents tends to be done *per word*. It can't even be done per documnet.
19:51:07 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: In Farsi, diacritics usually arn't written, but some are preserved for readability.
19:51:28 [TabAtkins_]
florian: There are still useful cases where it's solveable.
19:51:41 [TabAtkins_]
florian: For cases that still aren't solveable, well, they're already not solved.
19:52:03 [TabAtkins_]
florian: Another case - old-fashioned long s may want to be transformed into a modern s. That's not something we'll probably ever care about as a group.
19:52:19 [fantasai]
fantasai^: but in some words, they are preserved because otherwise the word would be ambiguous
19:52:20 [TabAtkins_]
jdaggett_: And in Japanese you coul dhave rules that shift from one form of kana to another form. Tiny use-cases.
19:52:29 [fantasai]
fantasai^: you cannot solve this use case without a dictionary
19:52:49 [TabAtkins_]
jdaggett_: For i18n, it's simpler to just give people a rule. If we find people using a particular kind consistently, we can then standardize it.
19:53:04 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: I think this is a good idea, and is similar to @counter-style.
19:53:18 [TabAtkins_]
jdaggett_: I propose then that we drop this property value and move towards defining this transform rule and its syntax.
19:53:27 [tcelik]
specifically: text-transform: uppercase turns "0.1µF" into "0.1MF"
19:53:30 [TabAtkins_]
szilles: One concern I always raise is, is this opening a security hole?
19:54:20 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: It seems like anything you can do here, you can do with a font.
19:54:27 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: or in many cases, just ordinary javascript.
19:54:41 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: As an aside, I'm not crazy about the specific syntax being proposed, but I won't get into that now.
19:55:11 [TabAtkins_]
stearns: I like this idea, but should the full-size-kana rule still be added, since it seems useful?
19:55:59 [TabAtkins_]
jdaggett_: Given that the use-case is only for Ruby in japanese, and only for people who want to keep their original content that comes with small kana, I don't think we need to.
19:56:25 [TabAtkins_]
szilles: A solution would be to use *this* transform as an example in the spec.
19:56:31 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: The table is non-trivial.
19:56:45 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: And the *idea* that you can ask the UA for this sort of thing is new and strange.
19:57:25 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: If it's tricky and unintuitive, nobody will do it though.
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19:58:19 [TabAtkins_]
jdaggett_: If there's an example, or a wiki article or something, it's a simple cut-and-paste to put it in your page.
19:58:48 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: Or an @import. That works for fonts already.
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fantasai: They'll do that because it's shiny and new and cool.
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19:59:35 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: We're not fighting the functionality, just the syntax. And making it available to other languages.
20:00:02 [TabAtkins_]
howcome: For example, in typesetting my Ibsen book, he used a peculiar form of punctuation. I had to edit a font to do that.
20:00:51 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: I hear many in favor, and one strong objection.
20:01:28 [TabAtkins_]
[three strong objections]
20:01:41 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: I think this is creeping transformations to CSS.
20:01:57 [TabAtkins_]
jdaggett_: Do you support the keyword itself?
20:02:03 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: You said it was necessary, so yes.
20:02:16 [TabAtkins_]
<br type=lunch duration=1h>
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21:04:41 [Bert]
Scribe: Bert
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21:05:13 [Bert]
Topic: Image Values
21:05:34 [Bert]
[fantasai draws on whiteboard]
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21:06:12 [Bert]
fantasai: Can somebody project the gradient syntax definition?
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join #ac
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21:07:12 [fantasai]
21:07:27 [fantasai]
21:07:51 [Bert]
fantasai: Look at bottom of wiki page.
21:08:05 [Bert]
... Not clear what is going on in these examples.
21:08:12 [Bert]
... Some colors, som epercentages...
21:08:27 [Bert]
... So want all notations to be more obvious.
21:09:00 [Bert]
... Please look at the e-mail for some ideas.
21:09:16 [YUMA]
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21:09:28 [Bert]
... Not ncecessary to have positional arguments in CSS.
21:09:52 [Bert]
JohnD: Functional notation is usually interpreted as a function w/ params.
21:10:03 [Bert]
... This keyword notation is going away from that.
21:10:18 [Bert]
Tab: Bu you can see it as going back more to how CSS properties work.
21:10:44 [Bert]
JohnD: When I read a parentheseis, I expect a function.
21:11:21 [Bert]
[Some people offering opiions]
21:11:35 [shepazu]
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21:11:38 [Bert]
fantasai: Inside the func. notation it is pretty much like a value ntation.
21:11:50 [Bert]
... Not a function call, but a subset of the value.
21:12:02 [Bert]
PeterL: We have other things without commas.
21:12:15 [Bert]
Simon: But always commas in functions.
21:12:32 [Bert]
Molly: Most people are not computer scientists.
21:12:40 [Bert]
... What is intuitive.
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21:12:57 [Bert]
... The original proposals were completely unitutive.
21:13:11 [Bert]
... I have no context from CS. Peopel like me just need words.
21:13:32 [Bert]
... Gradient "from" here "to" there.
21:13:40 [dowan]
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21:13:48 [Bert]
JohnD: But look at AppleScript. It is frustrating.
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21:14:11 [Bert]
Tab: But isn't this the case for every proeprty?
21:14:29 [Bert]
JohnD: It's different inside functional notaitons.
21:14:47 [Bert]
Markus: Should avoid functional notation in general.
21:15:00 [Bert]
Simon: How do you know [something]?
21:15:13 [Bert]
Molly: It's the words, as long as it is logical.
21:15:26 [Bert]
JohnD: Any kind of formal language needs to be consistent.
21:15:40 [Bert]
... In similar cases, you use similar notations.
21:15:58 [Bert]
... But this is mixing things together.
21:16:05 [Bert]
... Will lead to confusion.
21:16:15 [Bert]
Brad: I think it rather clarifies.
21:16:24 [Bert]
... This is not AppleScript.
21:16:47 [Bert]
fantasai: Looking at the exampels, I cankind of see what is going on.
21:16:57 [Bert]
... With the other ones, I have no idea.
21:17:08 [Bert]
... That's why I want to go here.
21:17:37 [Bert]
... Most functional notations we have so far, have commas in thesame way as in values without functional notations.
21:18:03 [Bert]
JohnD: Do we have func. notations with keywords anywhere?
21:18:10 [Bert]
Tab: We're adding that right now.
21:18:25 [arno]
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21:18:26 [Bert]
... Most functions sofar are pretty trivial.
21:18:46 [Bert]
JohnD: So this is the first time for keywords in functional notations.
21:18:51 [brianman]
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21:18:59 [brianman]
helps to have the right port - 6665
21:19:13 [dbaron]
I think keywords inside functional notation are reasonable.
21:19:20 [Bert]
Simon: Slippery slope. But other way to think about it is name-value pairs.
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21:20:00 [Bert]
Howcome: OK with changing. We can also drop the just the parentheses here.
21:20:15 [brianman]
There was a lot in e-mail. What's the current proposal?
21:20:16 [Bert]
... Programmers have traditions.
21:20:25 [JohnJansen]
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21:20:26 [Bert]
... We can do differently, as a string or something.
21:20:39 [Bert]
PeterL: Cf Python and others.
21:20:40 [TabAtkins_]
Like radial-gradient(center: 20% 20%, shape: cover ellipse, colors: blue, red, black)?
21:20:50 [Bert]
JohnD: But they are specific syntaxes.
21:20:56 [Bert]
PeterL: So is CSS.
21:21:00 [brianman]
There's at least one problem with that syntax, Tab.
21:21:25 [Bert]
PeterL: The point is they are *not* parameters, because it is not a *function*.
21:21:44 [brianman]
You probably want .... radial-gradient(center: 20% 20%, shape: cover ellipse, colors: |blue, red, black|) ... but something other than the pipe character.
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21:22:03 [dbaron]
this is starting to look more like Apple's original proposal
21:22:11 [Bert]
fantasai: I hear objections to commas, because that makes it different from C. I dont' hear that my eample is unreadable.
21:22:17 [brianman]
Your syntax above isn't clear on what the commas separate. Are they separating colors or the next param pair?
21:22:30 [Bert]
JohnD: It's not C. It's consistency with other parts of CSS.
21:22:38 [brianman]
Can you repeat your specific example, fantasai?
21:22:44 [Bert]
fantasai: We dont' use commas between values in CSS.
21:23:16 [Bert]
[For fantasai's idea, see e-mail linked earlier]
21:23:23 [brianman]
[There are like 20 emails.]
21:23:23 [plinss]
21:23:34 [plinss]
21:23:41 [Bert]
Rossen: fantasai's is not necessarily easier.
21:24:19 [Bert]
... Functional syntax is hiding three gradient properties. Why do need to be in the notation, not in proeprties?
21:24:32 [brianman]
Are you referring to this flavor: radial-gradient(<shape> keyword <position> keyword <stops) ?
21:24:33 [Bert]
Tab: They are values, gradietns aren't properties.
21:24:45 [Bert]
... We don't add twenty-something properties for images.
21:24:58 [Bert]
... Can add @rule or point to SVG.
21:25:15 [Bert]
... But gradients are right at the edge, can still be in CSS, n a funtion.
21:25:42 [Bert]
sylvaing: At some poijt we switch to SVG, you say. Then we need to inline SVG.
21:26:06 [Bert]
ErikD: [missed]
21:26:19 [Bert]
... Doesn't seem natural to me.
21:26:45 [Bert]
Simon: Trabsforms has functional notations. But all numeric.
21:26:50 [bradk]
rect() does not require commas:
21:27:07 [dbaron]
rect() is an accident from the examples and the normative prose in CSS 2.0 mismatching
21:27:17 [smfr]
21:27:25 [brianman]
Why is "radial-gradient(circle from center as red, blue)" better than "radial-gradient(circle from center, red, blue)"? In my opinion it's worse.
21:27:43 [Bert]
Tab: Filter functions shorthand in CSS looks like comma-separted now, but will change them to look more like CSS proeprty. Don't need th ecommas. Space is enough.
21:28:01 [Bert]
Simon: Then we need to do that for trnasforms too, Consistency.
21:28:21 [ed]
s/Doesn't seem natural to me./the "from ... as" syntax doesn't seem natural to me./
21:28:39 [Bert]
Luke: Need More general syntax system than the English word thrown here and there.
21:28:56 [Bert]
fantasai: Shorthand and indivisual propeties if needed.
21:28:56 [glazou]
21:29:24 [Bert]
Simon: @-rule, like keyframe [...]
21:29:43 [Bert]
... Use JSON :-)
21:29:48 [plinss]
ack glazou
21:29:58 [glazou]
I would like to avoid "silent" tokens
21:30:07 [glazou]
i.e. like in genetics, genes that express nothing
21:30:17 [glazou]
if we could keep meaningful stuff only
21:30:21 [glazou]
please let's do that
21:30:34 [brianman]
Clarify, glazou?
21:30:34 [glazou]
in that light, from and as are meaningless
21:30:39 [brianman]
21:30:44 [glazou]
they help readability by humans
21:30:48 [glazou]
don't help the syntax
21:30:50 [brianman]
I would agree on 'as' but 'from' has some value.
21:30:57 [Bert]
Shane: Pretty strong relation to JSON idea. name:value idea.
21:30:59 [glazou]
and also complexity parsing
21:30:59 [brianman]
It solves the size version position problem with lengths.
21:31:15 [Bert]
Florian: That's not what was proposed here.
21:31:55 [smfr]
gradient(shape circle, from left, as red, green)
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21:32:12 [brianman]
Useless as in that version, smfr.
21:32:12 [smfr]
gradient(shape circle from left as red, green)
21:32:13 [Bert]
Shane: Those "silent" tokens exist in JSON, too.
21:32:30 [Bert]
... Slight difference in tokens.
21:32:49 [Bert]
fantasai: Can vary order, although it looks weird with shape at the end.
21:33:00 [brianman]
Sidenote: I think from is the wrong word. At is a better word.
21:33:05 [Bert]
JohnD: Maye be readable, but allows syntaxes that are gibberish.
21:33:08 [brianman]
In light of offset focal point in the future.
21:33:20 [Bert]
PeterL: Gibberisgh is loaded term.
21:33:57 [fantasai]
peterl: comma-separated numbers are gibberish to me if I'm not intimately familiar with the order of arguments
21:34:01 [Bert]
Shane: Is it better if it were order-independent and we say we can use it in other situations, too?
21:34:12 [brianman]
It can't be completely order independent. The color stops.
21:34:20 [Bert]
JohnD: It's what an author expects.
21:34:32 [glazou]
21:34:35 [Bert]
Molly: Solve deoendence on order with education.
21:34:42 [glazou]
won't work
21:34:45 [Bert]
... And a question:
21:35:03 [Bert]
... What Simon just wrote is beutifule. What is the problem with it?
21:35:21 [Bert]
Simon: Complex grouping, precendence issues...
21:35:35 [Bert]
fantasai: Property values have this already.
21:35:40 [dbaron]
The "shape" in what Simon wrote doesn't seem to me to add anything useful.
21:35:48 [Bert]
howcome: Need to start with "from" right?
21:36:17 [brianman]
@dbaron it has value here: radial-gradient(size 25px 25px, from 25px 25px, red, green)
21:36:49 [brianman]
21:37:03 [Bert]
Simon; CSS grammar doesn't restict what goes insoide (), does it?
21:37:06 [Bert]
Bert: Correct.
21:37:11 [rossen]
bert: didn't have time to look at the proposed syntax, would like to come back and comment in a week
21:37:25 [Bert]
Florian: Should we allow ourselves the same flexibility inside () as for other values.
21:37:47 [dbaron]
brianman, I was specifically referring to the "shape" rather than the other keywords
21:37:49 [Bert]
howcome: Not more restrictive, just using more keywords, with may be more or less intuitive.
21:38:00 [Bert]
fantasai: [missed]
21:38:23 [brianman]
@dbaron - so you want "radial-gradient(circle...) and "radial-gradient(size 25px 25px, ...)" ... Meaning only a keyword in the size case?
21:38:31 [Bert]
Tab: CSS is designed for English speakers.
21:39:10 [Bert]
PeterL: No consensus?
21:39:14 [brianman]
... or are you saying that the from is clear enough that the other param doesn't need it?
21:39:19 [fantasai]
fantasai^: gradients is a particularly tricky case because there are many arguments of the same type that need to be disambiguated
21:39:24 [TabAtkins_]
A current example of using keywords in functional notation:
21:39:31 [TabAtkins_]
21:39:32 [Bert]
Molly: Seems less to do with keywords, more to do with notation, i.e., the brackets.
21:39:35 [Frankie]
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21:39:46 [Bert]
... That means something for computer scientists.
21:39:48 [TabAtkins_]
21:40:01 [Bert]
... Simon's examples in IRC make sense to me.
21:40:12 [Bert]
... What is the pb with those?
21:40:18 [brianman]
@Bert - Color stops problem.
21:40:34 [Bert]
... Is it the notation? The limitations?
21:40:47 [Bert]
Simon: No consensus about needed the shape.
21:41:03 [Bert]
... We need to think about all the things that use func. notation.
21:41:05 [brianman]
1. The color stops are different from the shape/size/location params. 2. the color steps are a list.
21:41:30 [brianman]
2 - If you're trying to get order-variability support, you need to group the color stops
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21:41:37 [Bert]
Florian: Values in general; some have just numbers, some have extra things to make it clearer. So far we didn't consider that inconstsient.
21:41:41 [brianman]
1 - I think of the color stops as a different thing than the params...just like for linear.
21:41:46 [Bert]
... Why do we think it is incosistent here?
21:42:11 [Bert]
PeterL: Transforms use a matric, that is a tradition, makes sense to people, no need to label it.
21:42:19 [Bert]
... What now?
21:42:29 [Bert]
21:42:42 [Bert]
Tab: Want to add a focal point later to gradients.
21:42:58 [Bert]
... More general discussion about notations later.
21:43:06 [brianman]
For those that didn't read the e-mail, with one slight adjustment I could accept Elika's radial syntax.
21:43:10 [Bert]
... Let's settle on radial gradients now.
21:43:38 [Bert]
Brad: linear gradiesnt have spaces.
21:43:50 [Bert]
... Spaces separate items in a list.
21:44:06 [fantasai]
Brad: Linear gradients already has "to", already uses spaces to separate certain items, and uses commas in a way that's consistent with how we use them in other property values
21:44:06 [Bert]
... We are only putting () around them here.
21:44:28 [Bert]
Tab: Poll on gradients, and general notation discussion later.
21:44:40 [brianman]
Isn't tha the same as yesterday, Tab?
21:44:44 [Bert]
Florian: Difficult to it in that order.
21:44:47 [brianman]
(What's new in your poll.)
21:45:04 [jeff]
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21:45:05 [Bert]
Tab: It slows down gradients. We know the features, we just discssu synatx forever.
21:45:14 [Bert]
.. Tjis is a minor issue.
21:45:25 [Bert]
Shane: Let's get gradients out first.
21:45:38 [Bert]
... Schedule alternative syntaxes discussion.
21:46:04 [Bert]
fantasai: That's terrible. Have to learn two syntaxes.
21:46:20 [brianman]
@molly - sorry, your syntax confuses me terribly
21:46:26 [Bert]
PeterL: Serialization issues too.
21:46:27 [howcome]
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21:46:32 [brianman]
...the middle param
21:46:40 [Bert]
sylvaing: Who would formally object to [???]
21:46:54 [fantasai]
s/[???]/the current comma-separated syntax/
21:47:06 [brianman]
the 09/08 WD you mean?
21:47:17 [brianman]
21:47:23 [Bert]
PeterL: Value in readability and extensibility.
21:47:29 [fantasai]
plinss: A fair question would be to ask would anyone formally object to publishing with this syntax?
21:47:35 [fantasai]
sylvaing: why should we change it?
21:47:36 [Bert]
[two many talking at the same time]
21:47:50 [fantasai]
plinss: I think it's a win for readability and understandability, and a big win for extensibility
21:48:16 [Bert]
peterL: valuable to look at this and see if it blocks something later.
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21:48:31 [Bert]
howcome: What is the example?
21:48:38 [Bert]
fantasai: Radial with offset center.
21:48:52 [dbaron]
To be clear: I really don't like "shape circle", since "circle" is obviously a shape so "shape" is redundant -- unless we do something more explicitly property:value-like.
21:48:58 [Bert]
Tab: circle at offset X X
21:49:18 [Bert]
JohnD: At some point it gets easier to have an @-rule, as simon said.
21:49:43 [Bert]
howcome: I think gradietns is already beyond readabilty.
21:49:52 [Bert]
Tab; Why didn't you say that earlier?
21:49:56 [Bert]
21:50:05 [Bert]
Tab: We settled on all this months ago.
21:50:17 [Bert]
JohnD: But you also say you want to extend this.
21:50:28 [Bert]
Tab: Yes, and at some point we say let's not extend any further.
21:50:40 [Bert]
... We can have that discussion in the future.
21:50:51 [Bert]
... But keep open possibility to extend in current syntax.
21:51:12 [Bert]
PeterL: I want gradients done. Don't publish and change again.
21:51:16 [Bert]
... Let;s strawpoll.
21:51:22 [fantasai]
Tab^: That was in the WebKit syntax, and I dropped it partly because I couldn't get a syntax that was reasonable with it.
21:52:00 [Bert]
[preparing strawpoll, finding exampels to show on screen]
21:52:26 [JohnJansen]
brianman, can you post what slight adjustment you need in order to accept Elika's syntax?
21:52:30 [brianman]
21:52:32 [TabAtkins_]
Option A: radial-gradient(1em 2em, 3em 5em, red, orange, yellow)
21:52:40 [brianman]
(i'll wait for tab)
21:52:46 [TabAtkins_]
Option B: radial-gradient(3em 5em at 1em 2em as red, orange, yellow)
21:52:59 [TabAtkins_]
Option c: radial-gradient(3em 5em at 1em 2em, red, orange, yellow)
21:53:26 [brianman]
Yah, that about captures it
21:53:33 [bradk]
B.2 radial-gradient(3em 5em at 1em 2em with red, orange, yellow)
21:53:40 [brianman]
A=WD, I prefer A but I'm fine with C. I dislike B for at least two reasons.
21:53:48 [Bert]
Tab: Second is Elika's
21:54:04 [Bert]
... 3rd is a variant, with "," instead of as
21:54:47 [Bert]
Luke: Option missing is to name the first params.
21:55:04 [Bert]
Florian: Not sure this is the right set of options for the poll.
21:55:13 [Bert]
... Need to eliminate.
21:55:25 [Bert]
Tab: Can give multiple votes, to all the ones you like.
21:55:53 [shans]
D. radial-gradient(shape 3em 5em at 1em 2em as red, orange, yellow)
21:57:23 [brianman]
@cyril - correct on SVG, canvas
21:57:23 [Bert]
Bert: [question about ems in the notation]
21:57:39 [Bert]
JohnJ: A
21:57:55 [Bert]
howcome: Where is the "from" keyword that elika propsoed?
21:58:02 [brianman]
good point
21:58:22 [fantasai]
plinss: The word is unimportant, the concept is what we're voting on
21:58:23 [Bert]
PeterL: The exact word is not inmportant.
21:58:28 [dbaron]
how does the ellipse/circle closest-side/closest-corner/farthest-side/farthest-corner fit into this?
21:58:39 [fantasai]
part of <shape>
21:58:42 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: First argument is <shape>, which includes that.
21:58:44 [Bert]
PeterL B, then c then A
21:58:45 [brianman]
replace "3em 5em" with the shape keyword
21:58:50 [brianman]
in all the options
21:58:58 [brianman]
the <shape> keywords rather
21:58:58 [Bert]
21:59:02 [Bert]
howcom: a
21:59:10 [Bert]
koji: A
21:59:21 [Bert]
markus: a
21:59:36 [Bert]
Alan: b, c
21:59:41 [Bert]
soonbo: a
21:59:50 [Bert]
florian: b, c, a
21:59:55 [dbaron]
(I saw that as both a shape and a size, but oh well...)
22:00:03 [Bert]
bert: abstain
22:00:09 [Bert]
masa: abstain
22:00:17 [Bert]
EricM: b
22:00:18 [bradk]
Brad: C, then B
22:00:23 [Bert]
brad: c, b
22:00:29 [brianman]
[After the poll I'd like to address dbaron's question.]
22:00:35 [Bert]
simon: a, d
22:00:41 [Bert]
alex: abstain
22:00:50 [Bert]
kimberley: abstain
22:01:01 [Bert]
rossen: a, c
22:01:04 [TabAtkins_]
(Yes, "radial-gradient(ellipse at top left, red, blue)" is fine.)
22:01:06 [Bert]
sylvaing: a
22:01:16 [Bert]
johnD: a c
22:01:21 [Bert]
arron: b, a
22:01:25 [Bert]
tab: b, c
22:01:34 [Bert]
shane: b, c
22:01:57 [Bert]
kimberlyblessing: a
22:02:10 [glazou]
22:02:15 [Bert]
fantasai: b, c
22:02:23 [Bert]
luke: a, d
22:02:24 [anne]
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22:02:39 [fantasai]
plinss: If you group b+c as one camp and a as a second, it's a dead tie
22:02:49 [Bert]
PeterL: This isn't showing us anything.
22:02:59 [dbaron]
my prefs are d with the b->c substitution, c, a, if I'm understanding correctly
22:03:01 [Bert]
fantasai: Open up to designers on wiki.
22:03:36 [Bert]
Tab: resolve in two weeks?
22:03:47 [brianman]
Resolve how?
22:03:48 [fantasai]
on csswg blog
22:03:56 [brianman]
22:04:14 [Bert]
ACTION fantasai: make post with the options, just two options.
22:04:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-397 - Make post with the options, just two options. [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-11-08].
22:04:39 [brianman]
The "2" in that action is troubling.
22:04:43 [brianman]
Either you choose to screw B or C.
22:04:58 [Bert]
[discussion about @-rule]
22:05:12 [Bert]
RESOLVED: decide in two weeks.
22:05:42 [glazou]
22:05:58 [Bert]
[agenda discussion]
22:06:52 [plinss]
10 mins
22:07:03 [plinss]
pf joint meeting at 3:30
22:07:08 [Bert]
Topic: Variables
22:07:12 [glazou]
plinss: and variables ?
22:07:14 [glazou]
ah ok
22:07:26 [Bert]
Tab: We talked about it in Seattle. I revised things since.
22:07:27 [JohnJansen]
dbaron, we're going to power through a bit of variables first, then do the joint meeting. short break before joint meeting
22:07:32 [Bert]
... Let's go over it.
22:07:47 [Bert]
... Variables were @-rules before.
22:08:04 [Bert]
... That has scoping problems, etc.
22:08:14 [Bert]
... So new idea is to define data-* properties.
22:08:32 [Bert]
... Can be any name after data-. Need to define the syntax exactly.
22:08:38 [Bert]
... Later.
22:08:51 [Bert]
... They have arbitrary name and arbitrary value.
22:09:05 [Bert]
.. Attaches these proeprties to an element.
22:09:20 [Bert]
... Follows cascade, inheritance, exactly like every othe rproperty.
22:09:27 [Bert]
Markus: So always inherited?
22:09:34 [Bert]
Tab: Yes, always inherited.
22:09:47 [Bert]
... A data- property doens't do anything by itelf.
22:09:58 [Bert]
... But you can use them by referring to them.
22:10:04 [Bert]
... Example 1:
22:10:33 [Bert]
... Sets data-border-color on :root.
22:10:42 [Bert]
... Inherits to everything.
22:10:54 [Bert]
... An H1 later on has this property.
22:11:14 [Bert]
... Can refer to is: background: data(border-color)
22:11:24 [Bert]
.. Example 2:
22:11:30 [Bert]
s/.. /.../
22:12:03 [Bert]
... Easier to understand, at least when you understand cascade and inheritance. :-)
22:12:20 [Bert]
... Libraries can declare their own variables.
22:12:32 [glazou]
22:12:34 [Bert]
... With this system you just set it on the root, and won't interfere.
22:12:55 [arno]
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22:13:42 [Bert]
JohnD: name collision?
22:13:54 [Bert]
Tab: Still possible , but addresses the majority of them.
22:14:12 [Bert]
JohnD: So each of these data-* are in the cascade and visible to any element.
22:14:29 [Bert]
dbaron: Yes, all inherited.
22:14:30 [gilles]
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22:14:47 [Bert]
JohnD: So if you set then inside a class...
22:14:47 [howard]
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22:15:03 [Bert]
Tab: Then nothing outside that class they are not there, that's inheritance.
22:15:15 [Bert]
dbaron: Some library that deals with a subtree.
22:15:19 [Bert]
Tab: Such as widgets.
22:15:29 [Bert]
dbaron: Tehre are other kinds of libraries.
22:15:52 [Bert]
johnd: You say it resolves na,me collisions, but it simplifes, eliminates global scopes.
22:16:03 [Bert]
PeterL: Not eliminated problem, bur reduced.
22:16:15 [Bert]
howcome: when do you know a value is invalid?
22:16:21 [glazou]
so I think this is clearly the cleanest and best CSS-integrated variables proposal since 1998 ; it's easy to understand, easy to edit, fast and easy to deploy from a web site point of view ; love it
22:16:24 [Bert]
Tab: At computed value time.
22:16:34 [Bert]
... Say it recolves to color: foo
22:16:58 [Bert]
... At that point it is not a valid value, and the initial value will be used. Not the previous rule.
22:17:07 [glazou]
22:17:18 [Bert]
fantasai: memeroy usage?
22:17:42 [Bert]
Tab: Shane tried and said it was no so bad.
22:17:50 [Bert]
22:18:13 [Bert]
22:18:20 [glazou]
so no resolution here ?
22:19:00 [Bert]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:19:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Bert
22:19:10 [glazou]
Bert: no resolution to publish variables ?
22:19:59 [glazou]
22:20:57 [glazou]
thks Bert
22:26:57 [dbaron]
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22:28:15 [Mike5]
Mike5 has joined #css
22:31:37 [Ms2ger]
Meeting: CSSWG f2f meeting at TPAC
22:31:47 [mihara]
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22:33:05 [florian]
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22:33:09 [Bert]
Topic: PF - CSS joint meeting
22:33:23 [Bert]
Janina: We appreciate your time.
22:33:28 [vhardy]
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22:33:34 [duga]
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22:33:44 [Bert]
... We haven't talked to you as often as we should. Been busy with HTML5 and other things.
22:33:57 [jamesn]
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22:33:58 [Bert]
... We have a task to look at other groups' work.
22:34:18 [Bert]
... We have been trying to make up for lost time in CSS.
22:34:29 [Bert]
... Created a wiki with CSS modukes.
22:34:37 [Bert]
... Checked 50-60% so far
22:34:50 [Bert]
... Several issues, of diff. types.
22:34:55 [MichaelC]
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22:34:57 [Bert]
... Soem can be done in e-mail.
22:35:09 [Bert]
... Shoild get started on the overarching issues.
22:35:23 [Bert]
... Some might involve others than just CSS and PF.
22:35:33 [Bert]
... CSS is importan to accessibility.
22:35:46 [Bert]
... CSS should be an accessibility success story.
22:35:49 [dbaron]
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22:36:02 [Bert]
... Haveong looked at the modules,
22:36:19 [Bert]
... (can we project them?)
22:36:49 [Bert]
... We should start to understand CSS 3.
22:36:59 [Bert]
... An overview would be useful.
22:37:13 [Bert]
... Michael will have a list in a second.
22:37:18 [dbaron]
should we mention the snapshot?
22:37:26 [Bert]
... We're concerned about reflowing content.
22:37:40 [MichaelC]
-> PFWG Discussion notes on CSS accessibility
22:37:46 [Bert]
... Not a bad idea, but may negatively impact the reading order, with braille and screen readers, may affect tab order.
22:37:55 [Bert]
... May need a solution.
22:38:10 [Bert]
... We should be able to influence the reading order.
22:38:28 [Bert]
PeterL: Maybe not thinking about the same terms with the same meaning.
22:38:38 [Bert]
dbaron: Can you give what you think it means?
22:39:04 [Bert]
SandyShelly: Concern is , let';take an example:
22:39:09 [Bert]
... flexbox
22:39:24 [Bert]
... taborder still follows source order, but screen order is different.
22:39:30 [fukuno]
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22:39:32 [Bert]
... Several places in CSS do that.
22:39:42 [Bert]
... ARIA and script can help.
22:39:53 [Bert]
... But is at differnet lvel, in HTML.
22:40:11 [Bert]
dbaron: Authors who want to use different orders for some reasons,
22:40:14 [myakura]
s/SandyShelly/Cynthia Shelly/
22:40:22 [Bert]
... do that intentionally.
22:40:38 [Bert]
Cynthia: that breaks it for sighted users.
22:41:09 [Bert]
Tab: reflow is very useful for repairing source order.
22:41:19 [Bert]
cynthia: Yes, good use cases, but
22:41:40 [Bert]
... some use cases not thought through, especially sighted keyboard users.
22:41:50 [Bert]
... (who can't use a mouse)
22:41:59 [Bert]
Alex: Semantic order and visual order.
22:42:28 [Bert]
... If we believe the semantic order is the right order, then follow that, otherwise follow th visual order.
22:42:49 [Bert]
cynthia: Focussable elements inside that, eand keeping keyboard and scren in sync. is problematic.
22:42:54 [bradk]
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22:43:07 [Bert]
... May need some things in CSS to change the tab order or flow. Rather in CSS than HTML.
22:43:26 [Bert]
JamesCraig: Related properties that we wanted an explanation of: nac-index, nav-right...
22:43:28 [fantasai]
22:43:36 [fantasai]
22:43:41 [Bert]
Tab: Editor is Tantek, but nor here now.
22:44:07 [Bert]
Florian: Semantic order and visual order both are meaningful. One is not right or wrong.
22:44:28 [Bert]
... May need to tab throught source order *and* through visual order.
22:44:37 [Bert]
Cynthis: Application dependent. let user choose.
22:44:54 [Bert]
Tab: Rearranging focussable things...
22:45:08 [jun_]
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22:45:09 [Bert]
... At leats blocks of things rearranged with media queries.
22:45:22 [Bert]
Janina: Author must indeed be able to rearrnge layout.
22:45:31 [Bert]
... But some users may need to consume it differently.
22:45:52 [Bert]
markus: A media-query-driven tab-order.
22:46:01 [Bert]
Janina: Perjhaps. We don't have a slution.
22:46:07 [hiroki]
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22:46:16 [Bert]
cynthia: main req. is that it is in CSS layer, not HTML.
22:46:25 [Bert]
22:46:36 [Bert]
fnatasi: Isn't that the nav-index property.
22:47:24 [Bert]
Tab: The existing property is not quite right. We have been working on similar things. This is less useful as it can be.
22:47:40 [Bert]
... So we can do some work on it.
22:48:05 [Bert]
22:48:32 [Bert]
michael: a question on priorities of CSS specs.
22:48:55 [Bert]
JohnD: yes we like to know that too :-)
22:49:09 [Bert]
tab: They can easily end up reordered.
22:49:12 [dbaron]
should also note that gives an overview of the stable stuff
22:49:17 [Bert]
fantasai: there is no good answer to that.
22:49:29 [Bert]
MichaelC: So we prioritize our own time on the reviews.
22:49:41 [Bert]
fantasai: specs that head to LC vs other specs.
22:50:18 [Bert]
... We can break doewn in to 3 categories od stability.
22:50:27 [Bert]
... I have been writing that up in a blog
22:50:51 [Bert]
ACTION fantasai update current work page with more granularity by stability rather than priority.
22:50:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-398 - Update current work page with more granularity by stability rather than priority. [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-11-08].
22:51:03 [Bert]
MichaelC: User style sheets:
22:51:21 [Bert]
... User can override author, but
22:51:32 [Bert]
... if author uses an inaccessible design,
22:51:43 [Bert]
... it is not so feasible to override it.
22:51:59 [Bert]
janina: is there some way to make those overrides more accessible.
22:52:04 [Bert]
... be more pro-active.
22:52:15 [Bert]
Tab: I expect W3C cannot do much.
22:52:24 [Bert]
... isa UA issue.
22:52:42 [Bert]
... Browsers should do it better. Not standardization issue.
22:53:00 [Bert]
MichaelC: style sheets keyed off of class etc. So difficult to override.
22:53:09 [Bert]
fantasai: We are working on consitional rules.
22:53:24 [Bert]
.. Designate a block for a particular URL or domain.
22:53:29 [Bert]
22:53:40 [Bert]
howcome: can even put all those in a single file.
22:53:47 [Bert]
... the file may be huge, though.
22:54:12 [Bert]
Tab: Accessibility related issues for user style sheets, sites that share those.
22:54:30 [Bert]
howcome: we can disable floats, go black&whiet, in Opera, e.g.
22:54:49 [Bert]
janina: Weith a little bit of your help we can close that gap better.
22:55:02 [Bert]
fantasai: We need more specific ideas of what to do.
22:55:18 [ChrisWilson]
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22:55:21 [plinss]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
22:55:22 [Bert]
MichaelC: Animations:
22:55:23 [dbaron]
22:55:35 [Bert]
... user must be able to stop any movement.
22:55:46 [Bert]
... We didn't see that in marquee or animation.
22:56:00 [Bert]
... Or need a script interface for that.
22:56:11 [Bert]
Tab: For animations, that can be done.
22:56:24 [Bert]
... You can set the marquee property to off, too.
22:56:33 [fantasai]
turning off can be done easily, not pausing
22:56:41 [Bert]
... Dean JAckson is working n animations and starting stopping them.
22:56:46 [Bert]
... Seems to be addressed.
22:56:53 [Bert]
dbaron: What do you want exactly?
22:57:08 [Bert]
MichaelC: Give users their own choices.
22:57:26 [Bert]
... Preventing aimations fromn starting, rather than stopping them.
22:57:36 [Bert]
... Need one of the two.
22:58:14 [Bert]
Simon: What about javascript-driven animations? No css involved there at all.
22:58:50 [Bert]
dbaron: Do you want a script interface to [missed]
22:59:41 [Bert]
MichaelC: A global stop is useful. Also useful to stop animations at case by case basis.
22:59:57 [Bert]
arron: Nedd to stop/start, or also speed?
23:00:16 [sylvaing]
dbaron asked whether we wanted a script interface to stop animations or whether we wanted a script interface to detect whether the user disabled animations ?
23:00:20 [Bert]
MichaelC: No guideline for controlling speed, though it would be useful.
23:00:32 [dbaron_]
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23:00:36 [dbaron_]
dbaron: Do you want a script interface for the page to stop animations or a script interface for the page to tell the user that they stopped animations?
23:00:43 [dbaron_]
(the network keeps flaking out on me)
23:00:43 [Bert]
Simon: Browser doesn't know that javascripot is doing an animation.
23:00:54 [Bert]
MichaelC: That is for the author to solve, not for CSS.
23:01:15 [Bert]
... For CSS animations, the browser knows that ather eis an animation.
23:01:34 [Bert]
dbaron: Some extent physical model, some extent conceptual model.
23:01:45 [arno]
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23:01:48 [fantasai]
dbaron^: user style sheet is
23:01:58 [Bert]
... Easy to express in CSS that nothign animates. * {animation: none!improtant}
23:02:35 [Bert]
Tab: Withing CSS animation, we are mostly already addressing this, or will address it soon.
23:02:48 [Bert]
... May be an avenue for a new JS interface.
23:02:54 [dbaron_]
and earlier I linked to if you missed that
23:02:57 [Bert]
... Some UA pref to read.
23:03:16 [Bert]
fantasai: Earlier discussion, some years ago, yo extent MQ with user prefs.
23:03:31 [Bert]
... A MQ-type thing can address several concerns. Would need a module.
23:03:45 [Bert]
.. Need to thing what an author would want to query.
23:04:01 [Bert]
... Maybe a task for PF, to list the things.
23:04:11 [Bert]
MichaelC: We can take an action for that.
23:04:22 [Bert]
dbaron_: privacy concerns as well.
23:04:39 [Bert]
fantasai: Let's collect tham in obne place and have a common interface to them.
23:05:05 [Bert]
s/.. N/... N/
23:05:31 [MichaelC]
23:05:32 [Bert]
[PF takes the action]
23:05:45 [Bert]
[Tantek joins]
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23:06:14 [Bert]
James: nav-index and precedence, and nav-index vs layout order.
23:06:31 [Bert]
cynthia: and please a summary of what nav-index is for.
23:07:09 [Bert]
tantek: Author may rearrange spatially the elements and therefore needs to change the navigation from the browser default.
23:07:22 [Bert]
... Author can change nav-index along with layout.
23:07:32 [Bert]
... Both in same style sheet.
23:07:43 [Bert]
... nav-index is for sequential navigation.
23:08:01 [Bert]
... nav-up, etc. is for directional navigation.
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23:08:15 [Bert]
... Can do better than the browser default that way.
23:08:30 [Bert]
... E.g., mobile phones with four nav keys.
23:08:40 [fantasai]
... e.g. TV
23:08:44 [Bert]
.. Is in addtion to, but not oinstea dof othe rmechanism.
23:08:49 [Bert]
s/.. /... /
23:09:14 [Bert]
cynthia: tab orde rin kwyboard interface. And how about flexbox?
23:09:30 [Bert]
Tantek: I need not be a tab key, it is abstract.
23:09:49 [Bert]
... CSS would override th mark-up, the same way as it overrides the layout.
23:10:01 [Bert]
Tab: tabindex would be expressed in terms of CSS.
23:10:15 [Bert]
Tantek: The HTML attribute tabindex would be liek the default.
23:10:26 [Bert]
... Would have a UA default style that uses that.
23:10:38 [Bert]
... I know Opera has implemented nav-index, nav-*
23:10:44 [Bert]
.. They don't have flexbox.
23:10:56 [Bert]
... So cannot see combination currently.
23:11:03 [Bert]
s/.. T/... T/
23:11:33 [Bert]
dbaron: navindex may need something else to move chunks around as a whole.
23:11:42 [Bert]
... Not sure this is like z-index.
23:11:48 [Bert]
... But need to think about it.
23:12:01 [Bert]
Tantek: nav-index and tabindex have the same problems.
23:12:17 [Bert]
... Putting it in CSS keeps the layout and order in sync.
23:12:22 [Bert]
... But may be able to do better.
23:12:49 [Bert]
Tab: [somebody] is working on this, and changign things locally instead of globally.
23:12:51 [dbaron_]
Tab: Tantek, You want to talk to Ryosuke Niwa (rniwa at google)
23:13:05 [Bert]
James: We recommend tabindex=0 and tabindex=-1
23:13:19 [Bert]
... latter says it is not navigable.
23:13:36 [Bert]
... New extensions, since 3 years.
23:13:45 [Bert]
.. They are not covered in nav-index.
23:13:50 [Bert]
s/.. /... /
23:14:01 [Bert]
cynthia: run-time only.
23:14:18 [Bert]
Tab: You know it at the time you declare stuff in CSS.
23:14:47 [Bert]
MichaelC: Can elements in the middle of animations while users interact with them?
23:14:51 [Bert]
Tab: yes, they can.
23:15:00 [Bert]
... But you can control focus.
23:15:12 [Bert]
... Can stop and resume.
23:15:19 [dbaron_]
Tab: You could pause animations while matching :focus or :hover
23:15:33 [Bert]
Cynthia: Were would the focus be? Say in the middle of a swipe.
23:15:57 [Bert]
dbaron: In general, animations don't add anything that Javascript soesn't do already, just more declarative.
23:16:11 [Bert]
... No new conceptual problems, but declarative gives more control.
23:16:29 [Bert]
MichaelC: Author can add features in same declaratyive way.
23:16:46 [Bert]
MichaelC: Critical topic:
23:16:54 [Bert]
... Seizures
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23:17:00 [dbaron_]
(Also, I'd note that tabindex=0 and tabindex=-1 should, in CSS, be keywords rather than magic numbers.)
23:17:01 [Bert]
... Can be provoked by animations.
23:17:17 [Bert]
... Need a warning to authors in the spec.
23:17:22 [myakura]
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23:17:32 [Bert]
... Not usual, but this is an important case.
23:17:49 [anne]
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23:17:54 [Bert]
JohnJ: Where do we put that?
23:18:08 [Bert]
MichaelC: Some visible location.
23:18:40 [Bert]
ACTION sylvain to add wartning (with link) about seizures to Animations spec.
23:18:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-399 - Add wartning (with link) about seizures to Animations spec. [on Sylvain Galineau - due 2011-11-08].
23:19:25 [Bert]
Tantek: maybe add things to a validator based on that note?
23:19:39 [Bert]
James: certain frwquencies
23:20:02 [Bert]
Tantek: automated tools help with catching more of them.
23:20:13 [Bert]
JohnJ: The warnign will often be incorrect.
23:20:26 [Bert]
James: WCAG has the frquencies.
23:20:31 [TabAtkins_]
Action johnjansen to investigate automated tools for detecting seizure-inducing animations/transitions.
23:20:31 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - johnjansen
23:20:39 [TabAtkins_]
Action johnjan to investigate automated tools for detecting seizure-inducing animations/transitions.
23:20:39 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - johnjan
23:20:43 [Bert]
MichaelC: Some 60 Hz or so, but depends on colors as well.
23:20:56 [TabAtkins_]
Action JohnJansen to investigate automated tools for detecting seizure-inducing animations/transitions.
23:20:56 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - JohnJansen
23:21:00 [TabAtkins_]
Action Jansen to investigate automated tools for detecting seizure-inducing animations/transitions.
23:21:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-400 - Investigate automated tools for detecting seizure-inducing animations/transitions. [on John Jansen - due 2011-11-08].
23:21:30 [Bert]
Tantek: capture suggestions for validators.
23:21:42 [Bert]
... Responsability on module editros.
23:21:54 [Bert]
MichaelC: Great, that is more than I asked for.
23:22:39 [Bert]
... In some environments layout may be awkward. MQ can obviously help. But are there aother ways to address that?
23:22:52 [Bert]
... MQ is sort of a sledgehammer approach, not all authors will do that.
23:23:14 [Bert]
... Say a table that automatically adjust narrow width, handle overflow.
23:23:26 [Bert]
... Could be several kinds of effects.
23:23:35 [Bert]
Markus: We recommend MQ currently.
23:23:49 [Bert]
fantasai: Multicol handles it automatically.
23:23:56 [Bert]
... flexbox can wrap.
23:24:19 [Bert]
... There are some moduels that address it, others that don't and that is a concern of mine as well.
23:24:47 [Bert]
dbaron: We want layout systenms with some flexibility. But we don't know how to build perfectly flexible systems.
23:25:01 [Bert]
... MQ offers authors the choice.
23:25:12 [Bert]
Markus: Some specs, by theri nature,
23:25:23 [Bert]
... need MQ as the way out.
23:25:41 [Bert]
Tab: Some layout can handle it automatically, for others it is MQ.
23:26:18 [Bert]
fantasai: Should first try automatical. For more extreme cases, or for more optimized mathods, go to MQ.
23:26:39 [Bert]
James: Maybe some author examples.
23:26:55 [Bert]
... Font-size can be large, can influence column size.
23:27:01 [Bert]
... Use rem e.g.,
23:27:08 [Bert]
... Things an author should consider.
23:27:22 [Bert]
fantasai: Excellent point, We should adopt the examples.
23:27:34 [Bert]
... And also build in flexibility as much as we can.
23:27:46 [Bert]
James: min-width in rem is important.
23:28:01 [Bert]
dbaron: In egneral using em is good to deal with unexpected font-sizes.
23:28:11 [fantasai]
s/the examples/good examples/
23:28:41 [Bert]
Markus: One requirement is that text is flexible
23:28:54 [Bert]
... If mroe space is available, could get bigger.
23:29:03 [fantasai]
calc+vm unit :)
23:29:24 [Bert]
MichaelC: Somethign about tables, not sure what our issue is.
23:29:41 [Bert]
James: Exposing a table.
23:29:57 [fantasai]
james: exposing CSS tables as a table api
23:30:29 [Bert]
dbaron: people who use tables for layout, in a grid-like table, should have a mark-up that is *not* a table.
23:30:39 [fantasai]
fantasai^: yeah, that is totally wrong (referring to james)
23:30:59 [Bert]
Steve: Firefox exposed CSS tables as table API.
23:31:24 [Bert]
... Was some feedback from IT vendors that it should be like that.
23:31:55 [fantasai]
dbaron: Gecko's accessibility api operates off the rendering tree instead of the content tree, which I've always considered to be a major design flaw.
23:31:59 [Bert]
dbaron: I think Gecko's design is wrong to use rendering tree for accessibility api. But that is the ay it has always been.
23:32:41 [Bert]
Steve: If it s a CSS table, it appears as a tabel in the API, but it should expose that it si a layout table to the user.
23:33:01 [Bert]
cynthia: But if an author used it for a data table...
23:33:28 [Bert]
... I've seen data tables done with DIVs in the past.
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23:33:58 [Bert]
James: Seems a bug. Rendering should not affect accessibility tree.
23:34:19 [Bert]
Tab: Currently only tables in 2.1, no module for it.
23:34:50 [Bert]
Steve: Table flattened.
23:35:36 [Bert]
Tantek: Using DIVs for data tables, and limited flxibility: what if there is not enough width?
23:35:58 [Bert]
Steve: Make it a block, and it reflows, doesn't it?
23:36:10 [Bert]
... I can give you some examples.
23:36:29 [Bert]
Tantek: has a table that breaks on blackberry.
23:36:37 [Bert]
... I'd love to hear some solutions.
23:36:57 [Bert]
James: Any wide content will have that problem.
23:37:23 [myakura]
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23:37:24 [Bert]
... Part of the issue, as opposed to columns, is that the columsn here have a meaning.
23:37:40 [fantasai]
23:37:44 [Bert]
Cynthia: related issue, indeed.
23:38:13 [Bert]
cynthia: somethign to think about over a beer...
23:38:27 [Bert]
MichaelC: Next issue:
23:38:34 [Bert]
... Can font-size refer to MQ?
23:38:44 [Bert]
s/refer/be part of/
23:39:19 [Bert]
dbaron: MQ happens before style sheet, so the em is always the users' default font size.
23:39:42 [Bert]
... So it is easy to query the user's font size.
23:39:57 [Bert]
... You can query for exact value or a range.
23:40:12 [Bert]
fantasai: You can ask how many ems fit on the screen.
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23:40:33 [Bert]
dbaron: You can query across units, but hard.
23:40:58 [Bert]
... Many Web pages don't render unless font is 16px, but that is differne tissue.
23:41:20 [Bert]
fantasai: What is the use case for querying th efont size, and not the siz eof the screen?
23:41:45 [Bert]
MichaelC: Can make thimngs relative to a base font size.
23:41:57 [Bert]
... Authors typically make font smaller.
23:42:13 [Bert]
... A base font size that authors wouldn't need to scale down.
23:42:21 [Bert]
dbaron: that is history.
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23:42:47 [Bert]
fantasai: Designers indeed lower font-size. No automatic way out of that.
23:43:15 [Bert]
... But rem unit (font size of root element) can soon be used everywhere.
23:43:51 [dbaron_]
s/easy to query the user's font size/easy to use the user's font size as part of queries, but hard to actually query for it directly/
23:43:52 [Bert]
... Author can override it, but user can then scale without breaking the design.
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23:44:19 [Bert]
James: You can use that in a media query? Check screen vs rem?
23:44:49 [Bert]
fantasai: Yes. You cannot find out what the rem is in terms of px, but can find out how many rem per screen.
23:45:06 [anne]
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23:45:13 [Bert]
... You don't have the px value, but you can use the rem and don't need the px.
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23:45:32 [Bert]
RichS: Can MQ dynamically change the style on the page?
23:45:38 [Stevef]
tcelik: Responsive Data Tables
23:45:39 [Stevef]
related accessibility article
23:45:49 [Bert]
dbraon: yes, dynamic. If user resizes window, style changes.
23:46:14 [Bert]
RichS: Might want to have on mobile som eway to add captioning base don environment.
23:46:21 [Bert]
... Would that be MQ, or an API?
23:46:40 [Bert]
Tab: MQ is preferred, can then still do it from JS as well.
23:46:55 [dbaron_]
23:47:00 [Bert]
MichaelC: Last issue on our list:
23:47:11 [Bert]
... Positioning module.
23:47:28 [Bert]
fantasai: We have mutliple modules about that.
23:48:21 [Bert]
arronei: Discussed a module with abs. pos and anslo centering, will publish soon.
23:48:31 [Bert]
fantasai: We have several related modules.
23:48:51 [Bert]
... We will intergate requirements as appropriate, if you can give them to us.
23:49:08 [Bert]
MichaelC: We'll take an action item.
23:49:19 [Bert]
fantasai: This is the right time for those.
23:49:22 [MichaelC]
23:49:42 [Bert]
MichaelC: Next issue: multi-col
23:49:44 [fantasai]
fantasai: as they're mostly in the brainstorming/design/exploring stages
23:49:53 [Bert]
... It is very positive for accessibility.
23:50:05 [Bert]
... Does it only waork in paged media?
23:50:22 [Bert]
fantasai: It works also in continuous media, but not so well.
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23:50:46 [Bert]
... Need to fix the height and have it overflow to the right.
23:50:56 [Bert]
... Howcome has a demo for that.
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23:51:41 [Bert]
howcome: Wikipedia has references in two columns, and th reading order doesn;t matetr, so columns without fixed height are fine.
23:51:43 [fantasai]
fantasai^: that's the only way to really have it work well in scrolling media, but you can also have a paged presentation on a screen
23:52:07 [Bert]
MichaelC: So work is ongoing. Any action?
23:52:34 [Bert]
TabL working on ways to fix it now, such as paging.
23:52:40 [fantasai]
fantasai: If you have any suggestion on how to make it work better for continuous media, we'd be happy to consider for L2
23:52:50 [Bert]
MichaelC: control of styling of form controls.
23:53:05 [Bert]
... Because authors too often replace the control with script.
23:53:27 [Bert]
janina: Often you find you can fill out a form, but cannot submit...
23:54:00 [Bert]
Tab: Too much differnece between devices and UAs. Difficult to specify what you can style.
23:54:05 [fantasai]
dbaron^: short answer to that is, we know, and it's a lot of work
23:54:13 [Bert]
... Would love to do it. Tantek has it on his list.
23:54:36 [Bert]
Tantek: If you have specific example, please send them to me.
23:54:43 [Bert]
James: We have a spec, ARIA.
23:55:20 [Bert]
Tantek: Web authors often make their forms less accessible with certain libraries they use. I want to find out why they use those.
23:55:34 [Bert]
... In some case the libraries themselves can be updated, with ARIA.
23:55:40 [Bert]
.. So multiple strategies.
23:55:46 [Bert]
s/.. /... /
23:55:54 [Bert]
... I can use help.
23:56:08 [fantasai]
collecting examples
23:56:08 [Bert]
James: HTML5 allows some more than before.
23:56:28 [Bert]
MichaelC: My last one today:
23:56:42 [Bert]
... Mouse cursor vs resolution.
23:57:01 [Bert]
... OS often have different variants.
23:57:21 [Bert]
Tab: UI module says to size to OS default.
23:57:28 [Bert]
... Works great with SVG image.
23:57:41 [Stevef]
tcelik: WAI-ARIA Implementation in JavaScript UI Libraries (2009)
23:57:43 [Bert]
Tantek: You can use multiple urls for a cursor.
23:57:53 [Bert]
... But not so precise as to which is used.
23:58:03 [Bert]
... What wording can we put in there?
23:58:03 [fantasai]
s/default/default if there is no intrinsic size/
23:58:13 [Bert]
MichaelC: We can probably come up with wording together.
23:58:55 [Bert]
James: SVG works on some. Didn't scale on windows.
23:59:14 [Bert]
dbaron: Tantek's suggestion seems too magical.
23:59:34 [Bert]
... We have proeprties that take images and say to take the first you can handle.
23:59:48 [Bert]
... That is clear, but this complicates it.
00:00:07 [Bert]
Tantek: May also define a new cursor format with multiple resolutions.
00:00:17 [Bert]
[several: therte is such a format]
00:00:21 [fantasai]
00:00:37 [Bert]
Tab: Image Value spec has default object resolution text.
00:00:49 [Bert]
... Handles mutli-resolution images.
00:01:15 [Bert]
James: I will take an action.
00:01:15 [fantasai]
00:01:23 [dbaron]
00:01:38 [MichaelC]
00:02:13 [Bert]
fantasai: [looking at MichaelC 's other issues]
00:02:25 [Bert]
... can use MQ for most.
00:02:51 [Bert]
Janina: Any other issues?
00:02:52 [fantasai]
fantasai: resolution variations can be done manually with @media
00:03:01 [Bert]
Tab: The generated content one.
00:03:02 [fantasai]
fantasai: high-contrast would be solved the same way once we have user queries
00:04:00 [Bert]
Steve: Concern was: text generated looks on screen as content. Mixing presentation and content.
00:04:11 [Bert]
... It is read aloud.
00:04:34 [Bert]
... No alternative tetx for a bg image on :after.
00:04:46 [Bert]
... I have asked some people in CSS WG already.
00:05:03 [Bert]
... I have concern about how it is processed in browsers.
00:05:12 [Bert]
James: can use attr()
00:05:41 [Bert]
... Othe rissue with CSS speech. Not want to speak the generated text.
00:05:57 [Bert]
... ARIA required attribute can trigger a background.
00:06:02 [fantasai]
... Can use CSS Speech 'speak: none' to hide generated content you don't wnat spoken
00:06:41 [Bert]
... If it looks like an asterisk on screen, can you make it render as something else in speech?
00:07:17 [Bert]
fantasai: Render ot another canvas, model is that you pick up generated content in speech stream but not background images.
00:07:33 [Bert]
.. Can speak: none to turn it off.
00:07:36 [Bert]
00:07:50 [Bert]
... Can use css speech to add visual icons.
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00:08:21 [Bert]
... The model we have for somebody to access a doc via speech is not to use the DOM, but to read the audio canvas.
00:08:58 [Bert]
James: One of my concerns is that Speech is very focused to books, think DAISY, nbot so much screen readers.
00:09:26 [Bert]
Cynthia: list numbers is an example. Many screne readers do that wrong right now.
00:09:37 [Bert]
fantasai: There is an example in the Speech module.
00:09:52 [Bert]
... I will help Tab to add it to CSS Lists moduele.
00:10:03 [Bert]
... Expectation is to be able to read those markers.
00:10:19 [Bert]
dbaron: Lot of browser bugs, but also misuse of generated content.
00:10:30 [Bert]
... It shouldn't be used for essential things.
00:10:41 [Bert]
... Not entirely happy with how list numbers work.
00:11:08 [Bert]
Tab: Things like adding a PDF logo before PDF links.
00:11:27 [Bert]
... Is that decaoative? It is informative.
00:11:43 [Bert]
... It is usefully exposed.
00:12:10 [Bert]
fantasai: Use the content property, with both a url and a string.
00:12:29 [Bert]
Janina: We should deal with favicon better.
00:12:53 [fantasai]
[href$=".pdf"]::after { content: url(PDF.png), "[PDF]"; }
00:12:55 [Bert]
... The Apache icons for different types of files?
00:13:35 [Bert]
... Seems a similar case.
00:13:54 [Bert]
... You can extend that in the Apache config, maybe in other systems, too.
00:14:05 [Bert]
Tab: That is outside of CSS.
00:14:15 [Bert]
fantasai: Browser knows the media type.
00:14:22 [Bert]
... Could present that.
00:14:29 [Bert]
... That is not the favicon.
00:14:48 [Bert]
dbaron: Browser doens;t have the media type until it fetches it.
00:15:16 [Bert]
James: You mean the default index in Apache, Janina?
00:15:21 [Bert]
Janina: yes.
00:15:40 [Bert]
MichaelC: Need we follow up on generated content later?
00:16:00 [Bert]
James: An action for me to check the content proeprty with text fallback.
00:16:18 [Bert]
00:16:49 [MichaelC]
00:16:50 [Bert]
MichaelC: We're done.
00:17:00 [Bert]
Janina: to be continued :-)
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00:25:27 [Bert]
Topic: Multi-col
00:25:47 [Bert]
howcome: Longstanding issue.
00:26:00 [Bert]
... Didn't get feedback from designers.
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00:26:18 [Bert]
... Should two spanners collapse margins?
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00:27:20 [Bert]
... Difference in collapsing, floats continuing in next spanner, and block formatting context.
00:27:51 [Bert]
Florian: IE does one, we don another.
00:28:07 [Bert]
Alex: Both options a and b make sense, not c.
00:28:14 [Bert]
fantasai: They all make sense.
00:28:30 [Bert]
howcome: may need to go to LC again.
00:28:46 [Bert]
.. If Alex is OK, let's do A.
00:28:56 [Bert]
00:29:19 [Bert]
[fantasai draw on whiteboard]
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00:29:39 [Bert]
fantasai: If spanners span different # of columns,
00:29:57 [Bert]
... you get option a.
00:30:17 [Bert]
... If they have same # of columns, you get different layout.
00:30:50 [Bert]
... c is like in single-column layout.
00:30:55 [Bert]
... Most natural.
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00:31:30 [Bert]
... b is like a special kind of BFC, different from others.
00:32:11 [dbaron]
(Is anyone actually talking about column-spanning elements that span some number of columns other than all? If so, scary.)
00:32:13 [Bert]
Alex: If these spanning elts were floats,
00:32:21 [Bert]
... would they collapse?
00:32:39 [Bert]
... They should behave like floats, not collapse.
00:32:49 [Bert]
Florian: It is a corner case.
00:32:59 [Bert]
fantasai: Dont' think so.
00:33:11 [Bert]
... But floats inside them is.
00:33:38 [Bert]
Alan: Article title followed by section title, I dont' want things to collapse.
00:33:50 [Bert]
fantasai: But if it is a single col, it collapses.
00:34:16 [Bert]
Brad: [missed]
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00:34:34 [tcelik]
fantasai - the current flipchart?
00:34:39 [Bert]
Alex: I want spanners to be like something else, not something new.
00:34:53 [Bert]
... which is like BFC in normal flow?
00:35:50 [Bert]
Alex: Make them behave like in normal flow.
00:36:11 [Bert]
fantasai: BFC doesn't collapse with its children.
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00:36:32 [Bert]
howcome: strawpoll?
00:37:05 [Bert]
PeterL: Can't decide now.
00:37:22 [Bert]
Topic: Variables (cont'd)
00:37:46 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
00:38:02 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: cyclic dependencies - easy to resolve
00:38:13 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: shows example 4:
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00:38:45 [tpod] cc: fantasai
00:38:46 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: We can detect this cyclic dependency easily at computed value time, and we resolve these to all initial value
00:39:04 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: both variables result in initial value in all places they are used
00:39:10 [fantasai]
:root {
00:39:17 [fantasai]
data-one: calc(datatwo) + 20px)
00:39:29 [fantasai]
data-two: calc(data(one) - 20px)
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00:39:52 [fantasai]
Bert asks questions
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00:40:20 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: They're calculated on the element at computed value time
00:40:52 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Var cycles are resolved at computed value time. Inheritance happens after computing.
00:41:05 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: There's an example below where something that looks cyclic isn't because of this detail
00:41:10 [fantasai]
TabAtkins shows example 5
00:41:20 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: <one><two><three/></two></one>
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00:41:41 [fantasai]
one { data-foo: 10px; }
00:41:47 [fantasai]
two { data-bar: calc(data(foo) + 10px; }
00:41:59 [fantasai]
three { data-foo: calc(data(bar) + 10px); }
00:42:15 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: two resolves easily from the inherited 10px
00:42:38 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: three is defined to use bar, but the value it sees is the successfully computed 20px.
00:42:56 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Cyclic dependencies only occur when variables on same element have cycles.
00:43:06 [fantasai]
Markus: If you accidentally do this, how do you know?
00:43:45 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Web Inspector can provide that info to the author.
00:44:18 [fantasai]
fantasai: You can search for all data-* properties that compute to 'initial'
00:44:27 [dbaron]
we could in theory even provide a console warning
00:44:28 [Bert]
s/Bert asks questions/Bert: Isn't the property evaluated when it iused, ratherathen when it is declared?/
00:44:49 [fantasai]
Alan: What if data-foo is a color?
00:45:02 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: bar won't be invalid except at the point where it's used.
00:45:18 [fantasai]
plinss ask about resolution
00:45:19 [dbaron]
fantasai, it shouldn't compute to initial, since an invalid data property needs to make the property using it (which may not use it as a *whole*) get its initial value
00:46:11 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: The data variables are treated as a stream of tokens, except for data substitution, until they're used
00:46:26 [fantasai]
dbaron, that resolves itself
00:46:40 [fantasai]
dbaron, it'll either be the entire value of the property, in which case that property gets initial
00:46:53 [fantasai]
dbaron, or it won't be valid because it's not the entire value of the property, in which case that property gets initial
00:46:57 [fantasai]
dbaron, either way you get initial :)
00:46:58 [dbaron]
fantasai, initial as a keyword is valid within font-family
00:47:16 [fantasai]
dbaron, not in a list iirc
00:47:23 [dbaron]
fantasai, yes
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00:47:56 [fantasai]
John may have reservations about substituting variables within other data properties
00:48:20 [fantasai]
howcome: If you wanted a variable that equalled 10% on this element, you couldn't do that.
00:48:24 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: no
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00:48:32 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: that would require more plumbing to make it work
00:48:40 [fantasai]
howcome: Don't think it's a req, just want to understand the model.
00:49:20 [fantasai]
dbaron: "The keywords 'initial' and 'default' are reserved for future use and must also be quoted when used as font names. UAs must not consider these keywords as matching the '<family-name>' type. "
00:49:33 [fantasai]
00:49:49 [fantasai]
howcome: Do you think there will be lots of invalid values? You go back to initial.
00:49:58 [dbaron]
fantasai, "as" != "in"
00:50:16 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: You will usually not run into this problem, because ...
00:50:31 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: You cannot resolve the data type of a data property at parse time
00:50:44 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: There are places where a particular token can masquerade as idfferent things depending on the context it's used
00:51:10 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: If you use 'red' in color, it becomes a color. If you use it in list-style, it's treated as a counter name
00:51:44 [fantasai]
jdaggett: so you have to do 2 parsing steps
00:51:47 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: In most cases, no.
00:51:54 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Your processing model doesn't make sense to me.
00:52:05 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I'm pretty sure it works
00:52:09 [dbaron]
It makes sense to me.
00:52:16 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Not clear to me when exactly these values are calculated
00:52:19 [dbaron]
You parse it into a token stream
00:52:30 [dbaron]
and handle any tokens that are the "data(" function
00:52:34 [dbaron]
and then save the token stream
00:52:38 [dbaron]
IMO, anyway
00:52:59 [fantasai]
jdaggett: What dbaron said makes sense. What Tab says makes no sense...
00:53:39 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: you can also optimize by storing the parsed (not just tokenized) version for reuse in the same context
00:53:45 [fantasai]
fantasai: That's an additional optmiziation
00:54:28 [fantasai]
Rosen: What if I have data-foo: inherit?
00:54:32 [Bert]
(So this requires that calc() is defined in Values and Units so that calc() can be used inside calc().)
00:54:36 [fantasai]
arronei: in this case it would be invalid
00:54:40 [plinss]
until 6pm
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TabAtkins: ...
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00:54:55 [fantasai]
Rossen: More natural way to me would be to have it on your parent.
00:55:05 [fantasai]
Rossen: similar wya to look at it is as inherit
00:55:17 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Flip side is you can never make a variable carry 'inherit'
00:55:22 [fantasai]
jdaggett: The keyword has special meaning
00:56:05 [fantasai]
Florian: I'd like to point out that this is the first time everyone in the room is arguing over details of a variables proposal and not everyone is arguing against having it
00:56:34 [fantasai]
TabAtkins explains the transformation from 'data-foo' to 'foo' inside data()
00:56:51 [fantasai]
discussion about property/value syntax
00:57:12 [fantasai]
plinss: I strongly feel they should be consistent on both sides, not different when defining vs referencing
00:57:22 [fantasai]
jdaggett: It looks too much like a property. Should look different.
00:57:39 [fantasai]
plinss: Prefer parentheses approacl
00:57:47 [fantasai]
data(foo): red;
00:57:51 [shans]
peter's proposed syntax is to do something like one { data(foo): 10px; }
00:57:59 [shans]
two { data(bar): calc(data(foo) + 10px); }
00:58:08 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Either way, I'm cool with having discussions about syntax of it later, as long as we're cool on the processing model.
00:58:21 [fantasai]
howcome: Can this mechanism be abused for prefixed properties?
00:58:34 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think this would be difficult
00:58:48 [fantasai]
howcome: what if ua's did special things with certain variable names?
00:58:53 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: That would violate the spec
00:59:03 [fantasai]
plinss: Make sure you explicitly forbid it
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00:59:19 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I defined explicitly that these are non-special, can wordsmith later if necessary
00:59:22 [fantasai]
plinss: Just about out of time.
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00:59:31 [fantasai]
plinss: I like the fact that this model fits the CSS way of doing things
00:59:39 [fantasai]
plinss: And not creating another weird variables model
00:59:46 [fantasai]
plinss: I think this is going to be harder to explain to people
00:59:56 [fantasai]
plinss: People don't really understand the cascade
01:00:24 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Most of my example are setting variables on the root, and I plan to add notes "just set it on root, don't think about it anymore"
01:00:31 [fantasai]
plinss: And don't set it on *
01:01:35 [fantasai]
fantasai: I remember getting a proposal for a variables-type thing that, very similar to this, used cascading/inheritance.
01:01:47 [fantasai]
fantasai: Person was very clear that s/he wanted inheritance behavior of the variables.
01:02:05 [fantasai]
alexmog: How do you undefine a variable?
01:02:22 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Could set it to 'initial'
01:02:32 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Alternatively, set it to itself. That'll create an immediate cycle.
01:02:47 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Can I publish this?
01:03:02 [fantasai]
plinss: Think there should be other people to decide for FPWD, but editor's draft should be ok.
01:03:26 [fantasai]
Markus: It's on, it's already an editor's draft.
01:03:45 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: But now I can talk about it, that the CSSWG has an editor's variables draft
01:03:56 [dbaron]
[Daniel and I are debating another variables issue in the back of the AC meeting room, on the assumption that you were going to end 4 minutes ago]
01:04:13 [fantasai]
howcome asks for confirmation that this is *the* variables draft
01:04:15 [fantasai]
01:04:21 [fantasai]
plinss: FXTF on Thursday
01:04:40 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
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Is there a call today? I guess everyone's at TPAC
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antonp: no call today, no call next week
16:06:07 [antonp]
ok, tx
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"hg clone data"
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hey Ms2ger
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23:32:15 [ojan]
random question...anyone know the history behind percentage sizes in standards mode? specifically, in quirks mode, to resolve a percentage, you walk up the tree until you hit the first non-auto, non-percentage valu (roughly)...for standards mode, if you hit an auto value you bail.
23:32:34 [ojan]
this behavior seems totally wrong to me and i'm wondering how the decision got made, so i can propose a fix for the future
23:32:41 [ojan]
dbaron: ^^^ maybe you know?
23:33:00 [dbaron]
which behavior seems wrong?
23:33:12 [dbaron]
quirks or standards?
23:33:16 [ojan]
dbaron: standards
23:33:37 [ojan]
dbaron: right or wrong is's clearly not what people want/expect
23:33:49 [dbaron]
23:33:49 [dbaron]
it's what the spec says, and I suppose we've never argued
23:33:53 [dbaron]
23:34:00 [dbaron]
it mgiht be a compat problem now, though
23:34:09 [ojan]
dbaron: oh way we can change it
23:34:26 [ojan]
dbaron: but, if there wasn't a good reason for it, we could always add a new unit
23:35:02 [ojan]
dbaron: the way you get the behavior you want these days is to have to put height 100% on every ancestor including the html element
23:35:08 [ojan]
dbaron: == the suck
23:35:28 [ojan]
dbaron: web dev after web dev is confused by this and it sucks to have to litter your tree with height values
23:35:53 [ojan]
dbaron: hwen you change your structure a little, you have to remember to put height 100% on any new elements you add
23:51:23 [hober2]
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23:51:53 [ojan]
dbaron: a coworker had an interesting idea of an altnerative to a new unit, we could add a new property a la box-sizing to control the behavior in a subtree
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00:04:11 [tantek]
ojan - what's the use case you're trying to address?
00:04:40 [ojan]
tantek: making an element fill one of it's ancestors...which is very common...e.g.
00:04:53 [tantek]
ojan - doesn't flexbox solve that?
00:04:58 [ojan]
tantek: making a UI that fills the whole viewport, making a dialog whose contents fill the dialog
00:04:59 [tantek]
cc: TabAtkins
00:05:13 [ojan]
tantek: but the flexbox itself needs to fill it's container
00:06:35 [tantek]
ojan, hmm, maybe position:absolute;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;height:auto;width:auto ?
00:07:02 [ojan]
tantek: yes, that works, but it's not at all intuitive and very few people learn to do it
00:07:13 [tantek]
yeah, it's copy-pasteo
00:07:47 [tantek]
but that should avoid the "you have to set height explicitly all the way down" thing right?
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00:08:54 [ojan]
tantek: that also doesn't let you do non 100% sizes...whcih i realize i didn't list as a use-case just now...but is totally valid
00:09:05 [ojan]
tantek: e.g. if you want a split-pane view
00:09:36 [tantek]
left:0;right:50%; … left:50%;right:0
00:09:44 [ojan]
tantek: how do you resolve the 50%?
00:09:53 [ojan]
00:09:54 [ojan]
00:09:58 [ojan]
i'm confused
00:10:12 [ojan] do you resolve right:50%?
00:10:13 [tantek]
positions are inset from the respective edges
00:10:19 [ojan]
isn't that the same problem?
00:10:25 [ojan]
50% of what?
00:10:26 [tantek]
no it works like you want it
00:10:43 [tantek]
00:13:17 [ojan]
wth...i can't believe percentage for width/height is resolved totally differently from left/right
00:13:31 [ojan]
i mean...i just tested it in webkit and it worked
00:13:33 [ojan]
but wth
00:13:37 [ojan]
that's even more broken
00:14:16 [ojan]
works in gecko too
00:14:19 [ojan]
00:15:01 [tantek]
00:15:26 [tantek]
ojan, it's not totally broken
00:15:38 [tantek]
it's exactly what happens when we pursue a strategy like you were suggesting
00:15:41 [tantek]
to fix the situation
00:15:53 [tantek]
the latter technology "does the right thing"
00:16:02 [tantek]
improving on the legacy standards compat
00:16:14 [ojan]
oh i see...percentages work with position: absolute actually
00:16:24 [ojan]
so height: 50% works fine if it's position:absolute
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