IRC log of rdf-wg on 2011-10-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:53 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:53 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:58:55 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:55 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:57 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 73394
14:58:57 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:58 [trackbot]
Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:58:58 [trackbot]
Date: 19 October 2011
14:59:57 [Scott_Bauer]
Scott_Bauer has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:02 [AndyS1]
zakim, who is on the phone
15:01:02 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', AndyS1
15:01:07 [Guus]
zakim, who is here?
15:01:07 [Zakim]
SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus
15:01:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS1, danbri, SteveH, MacTed, LeeF, Guus, AndyS, mischat, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, NickH, ericP, manu, trackbot, manu1, sandro
15:01:12 [MacTed]
Zakim, this is rdfwg
15:01:13 [Zakim]
ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:01:16 [Arnaud]
Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:18 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's here?
15:01:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [IPcaller], guus, Sandro, OpenLink_Software
15:01:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Arnaud, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS1, danbri, SteveH, MacTed, LeeF, Guus, AndyS, mischat, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, NickH, ericP, manu, trackbot, manu1, sandro
15:01:21 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:01:21 [MacTed]
zakim, mute me
15:01:25 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
15:01:25 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:01:27 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
15:01:29 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:01:31 [Zakim]
15:01:42 [pchampin_]
pchampin_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:44 [Zakim]
15:01:46 [Zakim]
15:01:52 [ivan]
zakim, drop me
15:01:53 [Zakim]
Ivan is being disconnected
15:01:54 [Zakim]
15:02:02 [ivan]
zakim dial ivan-voip
15:02:12 [Zakim]
15:02:20 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:02:20 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:02:21 [Zakim]
15:02:25 [Zakim]
15:02:28 [Scott_Bauer]
Zakim, Tony is me
15:02:28 [Zakim]
+Scott_Bauer; got it
15:02:30 [AndyS1]
zakim, IPcaller is me
15:02:30 [Zakim]
+AndyS1; got it
15:02:36 [davidwood]
zakim, code?
15:02:36 [Zakim]
the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, davidwood
15:02:48 [Zakim]
15:02:51 [Zakim]
15:03:03 [Souri]
Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:22 [Zakim]
15:03:42 [Zakim]
15:03:52 [pchampin_]
zakim, ??P16 is me
15:03:52 [Zakim]
+pchampin_; got it
15:03:59 [pchampin_]
zakim, mute me
15:03:59 [Zakim]
pchampin_ should now be muted
15:04:28 [AlexHall]
AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:04:56 [AZ]
AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:03 [Zakim]
15:05:40 [Zakim]
15:05:40 [gavinc]
[08:03] <Zakim> +Souri
15:05:52 [Guus]
zakim, who is here?
15:05:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see guus, Sandro, MacTed (muted), Ivan, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, AndyS1, david, Arnaud_LeHors (muted), Souri, pchampin_ (muted), AlexHall, AZ
15:05:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see AZ, AlexHall, Souri, pchampin_, Arnaud, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS1, danbri, SteveH, MacTed, LeeF, Guus, AndyS, mischat, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, NickH,
15:05:59 [Zakim]
... ericP, manu, trackbot, manu1, sandro
15:06:06 [zwu2]
zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:06:12 [zwu2]
zakim, code?
15:06:12 [Zakim]
the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, zwu2
15:06:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.265.aaaa
15:06:50 [gavinc]
scribenick: Souri
15:06:58 [zwu2]
zakim, .aaaa is me
15:06:59 [Zakim]
sorry, zwu2, I do not recognize a party named '.aaaa'
15:07:09 [zwu2]
zakim, +1.650.265.aaaa is me
15:07:10 [Zakim]
+zwu2; got it
15:07:14 [zwu2]
zakim, mute me
15:07:14 [Zakim]
zwu2 should now be muted
15:07:36 [Souri]
guus: short meeting today, addressing couple of issues
15:07:45 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.586.aabb
15:07:47 [pchampin_]
topic: admin
15:07:53 [AZ]
The link is broken
15:07:59 [AZ]
15:08:32 [davidwood]
Minutes are linked from and the links worl
15:08:40 [Souri]
davidwood: the link from F2F page works for me
15:09:20 [JeremyCarroll]
JeremyCarroll has joined #rdf-wg
15:09:43 [Souri]
guus: we will leave it and come back to it next time
15:09:54 [pchampin_]
topic: action items
15:10:14 [Souri]
guus: Issue-3.
15:10:46 [Souri]
davidwood: old comments list for the old RDF group, summarizing things that we may want to take a look at
15:10:58 [Souri]
... get some students to look at them
15:11:01 [sandro]
(the scribe -- Yves -- never did the post meeting stuff. it's now in place, but still has various scribe errors. )
15:11:32 [JeremyCarroll]
q- aabb
15:11:35 [Souri]
ACTION: guus To find volunteers for ISSUE-3
15:11:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-111 - Find volunteers for ISSUE-3 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-10-26].
15:11:45 [JeremyCarroll]
Zakim, I am aabb
15:11:46 [Zakim]
+JeremyCarroll; got it
15:11:58 [JeremyCarroll]
ack JeremyCarroll
15:12:13 [Souri]
guus: davidwood to work with Pat to see Issue-76 can be closed
15:12:38 [Souri]
davidwood: action can be closed, but ISSUE-76 needs to remain open
15:13:02 [Zakim]
15:13:09 [NickH]
Zakim, ??P24 is me
15:13:09 [Zakim]
+NickH; got it
15:13:14 [NickH]
Zakim, mute me
15:13:14 [Zakim]
NickH should now be muted
15:13:24 [pchampin_]
I met Fabien RL recently; he's well, but has been very very busy
15:13:37 [Souri]
guus: pending review action RDF/XML syntax spec
15:13:38 [gavinc]
ack +1.415.586.aabb
15:14:27 [Souri]
davidwood: we may need a new editor for that document
15:15:50 [Souri]
guus: action for gen id continues
15:16:35 [Souri]
guus: action item for richard: update the page on the graph task force, won't close it because richard is not here
15:17:51 [Souri]
guus: Action-97 update for RDF Conepts, continues
15:18:25 [gavinc]
15:18:25 [trackbot]
ACTION-98 -- Sandro Hawke to rdf: and rdfs: namespace should resolve to something that meets best practices -- due 2011-10-20 -- OPEN
15:18:25 [trackbot]
15:18:44 [gavinc]
I think the theory was to assign it to Sandro until Ivan was here?
15:20:09 [Souri]
Ivan: wonders if this is not something we should rather do when we have the RDF vocab doc updated, add the necessary RDFa for that instead of redoing
15:20:12 [pchampin_]
+1 to using the RDFS rec + RDFa as the RDFS namespace document
15:22:45 [Souri]
guus: taking up the minutes from F2F2
15:23:07 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
15:23:07 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
15:23:14 [sandro]
+1 be explicit that we need to ask for feedback on terms like "RDF Graph"
15:23:53 [Souri]
guus: explicitly need to ask for feedback on terms like RDF Graph
15:24:09 [Souri]
guus: revisit once we get community feedback
15:24:49 [Souri]
davidwood: SPARQL and Provenance group feedback as well
15:25:27 [Souri]
ACTION: guus to add the resolution text on the graph terminology
15:25:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-112 - Add the resolution text on the graph terminology [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-10-26].
15:26:09 [gavinc]
for example +☃ for test cases
15:26:28 [JeremyCarroll]
q+ to mention class extension under 71
15:26:40 [Souri]
guus: any more remarks on the first day's minutes
15:27:14 [Souri]
guus: going to F2F2 day 2 minutes
15:27:52 [Zakim]
15:28:02 [Zakim]
15:28:09 [gavinc] text for resolving issue-71
15:28:28 [Zakim]
15:28:32 [NickH]
Zakim, ??P24 is me
15:28:32 [Zakim]
+NickH; got it
15:28:35 [NickH]
Zakim, mute me
15:28:35 [Zakim]
NickH should now be muted
15:29:48 [sandro]
I understood it to be really sections, not appendices.
15:29:50 [JeremyCarroll]
ACTION: JeremyCarroll to propose modification to issue 71 to give class ext to lang-string
15:29:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-113 - Propose modification to issue 71 to give class ext to lang-string [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2011-10-26].
15:30:30 [Zakim]
15:30:44 [pfps]
pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:31:07 [Souri]
guus: accept the minutes for Boston F2F2 with the amendments
15:31:33 [gavinc]
Zakim, mute me
15:31:33 [Zakim]
gavinc should now be muted
15:32:19 [sandro]
15:32:19 [trackbot]
ISSUE-21 -- Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format? -- open
15:32:19 [trackbot]
15:32:19 [Souri]
guus: two smaller issues: first, scope of bnode in TriG: does it raise new issues?
15:32:38 [Souri]
sandro: it is already there ISSUE-21, right?
15:32:48 [Souri]
guus: right
15:33:12 [sandro]
15:33:13 [trackbot]
ISSUE-77 -- Should we mark rdf:Seq as archaic (cf ISSUE-24) -- open
15:33:13 [trackbot]
15:33:21 [ivan]
15:33:27 [Souri]
guus: second issue ISSUE-77: should we mark rdf:seq as archaic
15:34:00 [ivan]
ack JeremyCarroll
15:34:01 [Zakim]
JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention class extension under 71
15:34:14 [JeremyCarroll]
Zakim, mute me
15:34:14 [Zakim]
JeremyCarroll should now be muted
15:34:49 [ivan]
15:35:29 [JeremyCarroll]
q+ to suggest minimize informative txt on Seq
15:35:47 [ivan]
15:35:56 [Souri]
sandro: simple lists can be called well-formed lists, gently say don't use non-well-formed lists
15:36:45 [JeremyCarroll]
ack me
15:36:46 [Zakim]
JeremyCarroll, you wanted to suggest minimize informative txt on Seq
15:36:46 [gavinc]
-0.5 to reopening archaic vs. deprecated conversation
15:37:10 [AndyS1]
Maybe something like "Using well-formed lists maximises interoperability"
15:37:41 [AndyS1]
... or "usability" (bit more opinioned)
15:37:44 [sandro]
JeremyCarroll: move the "archaic" stuff to an appendix.
15:38:04 [Souri]
jeremycarroll: put informative text in the appendix of the primer (use words such as 'archaic' in there ...)
15:39:19 [Souri]
jeremycarroll: ... have a link to the old text
15:40:55 [Souri]
Ivan: its not only a question of labeling them as archaic etc, do you also change the RDFsemantics such as rdf:_1, rdf:_2, etc. These are problems for inferencing because they lead to infinite number of things. Propose taking them out of RDF and RDFS core.
15:41:16 [Souri]
Ivan: these are not editorial changes
15:41:32 [pchampin_]
s/are not/are not only/
15:42:17 [Souri]
... does the RDF and RDFS rules need to take care of the rdf:_n? if not, we should adjust them ...
15:42:24 [JeremyCarroll]
q+ to comment on ivan's comment
15:42:34 [Souri]
pfps: agree with Ivan, might be a good idea
15:42:37 [Guus]
ack ivan
15:42:40 [JeremyCarroll]
ack me
15:42:41 [Zakim]
JeremyCarroll, you wanted to comment on ivan's comment
15:42:49 [Souri]
... not just an RDF and RDFS only issue
15:43:53 [Zakim]
15:43:59 [pfps]
I don't think that anyone at the OWL level worries about the infinite base of RDFS, as there are an infinite number of entailments in OWL anyway.
15:44:09 [AndyS1]
rdfs:member is used.
15:44:09 [JeremyCarroll]
Zakim, mute me
15:44:09 [Zakim]
JeremyCarroll should now be muted
15:44:13 [ivan]
15:44:30 [Guus]
ack ivan
15:44:37 [JeremyCarroll]
Jeremy said that ivan's point, that some RDF semantics rules are complicated for rdf:_8 etc
15:44:41 [Zakim]
15:44:42 [NickH]
Zakim, ??P24 is me
15:44:43 [Zakim]
+NickH; got it
15:44:44 [NickH]
Zakim, mute me
15:44:44 [Zakim]
NickH should now be muted
15:44:56 [pchampin_]
jeremy: agree with Ivan, and I don't think people that use rdf:Seq are relying on rdf:_n implying membership
15:44:57 [JeremyCarroll]
Jeremy: does anyone really use these rules?
15:45:12 [gavinc]
rdfs:member is implemented a property function in Jena ARQ isn't it?
15:45:45 [AndyS1]
gavinc, yes (usually) and also by Jena rules for RDFS so API as well as SPARQL
15:45:46 [SteveH]
rdfs:member was implemented as an inference rule in 3store, but no-ones asked for it in 4store
15:45:52 [pfps]
in some sense the gain may be too small to overcome *any* pain, so why bother even trying
15:45:54 [Souri]
Ivan: theoretical possibility of a problem ... SPARQL on a member of a bag or seq may rely on rdf:_n being subproperty of rdfs:member
15:46:07 [ivan]
ok SteveH, good to know that
15:46:19 [AndyS1]
People use rdfs:member a bit : as list more common, list:member used more.
15:46:20 [JeremyCarroll]
Zakim, mute me
15:46:20 [Zakim]
JeremyCarroll was already muted, JeremyCarroll
15:46:22 [gavinc]
SteveH, I did! And you said to use lists instead... which we did ;)
15:46:44 [SteveH]
gavinc, oh! sorry :) doubt it was me that said use lists though
15:46:54 [SteveH]
ok, at least one person asked for rdfs:member :)
15:47:47 [Souri]
Ivan: have a slight difference with sandro
15:47:56 [SteveH]
FWIW, in the last commonly-used schema I had a hand in we had to invent our own ordinal system as both Seq and List weren't up to the job
15:48:18 [SteveH]
[ :foo "a" ; :ordinal 1 ] etc.
15:48:21 [Souri]
guus: hopefully by next week we can get to the resolution
15:49:02 [sandro]
s/have a slight difference with sandro/one problem is that Sandro's proposal uses specific terminology, but Guus says that's already decided/
15:49:08 [pfps]
15:49:20 [pfps]
+1 to sandro
15:49:45 [gavinc]
+1 for progress
15:49:48 [AndyS1]
email better for wordsmithing IMO
15:49:57 [Souri]
+1 to next week or emails
15:50:17 [JeremyCarroll]
+1 for e-mail, I want to get feedback
15:50:39 [gavinc]
unmute me
15:50:43 [gavinc]
Zakim, unmute me
15:50:43 [Zakim]
gavinc should no longer be muted
15:50:44 [AndyS1]
AndyS -- regrets for next week: ISWC
15:51:02 [ivan]
Ivan -- regrets for next week: ISWC
15:52:03 [pfps]
could we set up a room at ISWC for the meeting?
15:52:12 [Souri]
guus: I'll be at ISWC as well, but expect to join telcon via IRC
15:53:08 [Zakim]
15:53:16 [Zakim]
15:53:17 [Zakim]
15:53:20 [gavinc]
trackbot, end meeting
15:53:20 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:53:20 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been guus, Sandro, MacTed, Ivan, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, AndyS1, david, Arnaud_LeHors, Souri, pchampin_, AlexHall, AZ, zwu2, +1.415.586.aabb,
15:53:21 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:53:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot