IRC log of text on 2011-10-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:59:20 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #text
19:59:20 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-irc
19:59:25 [Judy]
chair: judy
19:59:41 [LeonieWatson]
LeonieWatson has joined #text
20:01:35 [Judy]
Zakim, this is WAI_PF(Text)
20:01:35 [Zakim]
ok, Judy; that matches WAI_PF(Text)4:00PM
20:02:03 [Judy]
zakim, who's here?
20:02:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Judy, ??P1, John_Foliot
20:02:04 [Zakim]
On IRC I see LeonieWatson, RRSAgent, Zakim, Judy
20:02:20 [Judy]
zakim, ??P1 is Janina
20:02:20 [Zakim]
+Janina; got it
20:03:33 [Zakim]
+??P3
20:04:03 [Judy]
zakim, ??P3 is Leonie
20:04:03 [Zakim]
+Leonie; got it
20:06:46 [LeonieWatson]
scribe: LeonieWatson
20:06:55 [LeonieWatson]
zakim, next item
20:06:55 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
20:07:38 [LeonieWatson]
Topic: Longdesc
20:08:10 [Judy]
agenda+ longdesc: JF-response to Jonas; JS-response to Matt's updated proposal.
20:08:10 [Judy]
agenda+ table summary: expanding use cases <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ReinstateTableSummary>
20:08:10 [Judy]
agenda+ generated content: update on new discussion sub-group <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13668>
20:08:10 [Judy]
agenda+ bug 8645, alt text for images <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8645>
20:08:11 [Judy]
agenda+ other business?
20:08:13 [Judy]
agenda+ confirm next meeting; identify next scribe; adjourn.
20:08:20 [Judy]
zakim, take up agendum 1
20:08:20 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "longdesc: JF-response to Jonas; JS-response to Matt's updated proposal." taken up [from Judy]
20:08:31 [LeonieWatson]
JB: zakim, take up agendum 1
20:09:05 [Judy]
zakim, who's here?
20:09:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Judy, Janina, John_Foliot, Leonie
20:09:06 [Zakim]
On IRC I see LeonieWatson, RRSAgent, Zakim, Judy
20:10:16 [LeonieWatson]
JB: John will send his response to Jonas tonight. Next, Janina and John need to co-ordinate to talke through a response to Matt, which Janina will write?
20:10:21 [LeonieWatson]
JF: Yes.
20:11:21 [LeonieWatson]
JB: If you guys could get going tomorrow that would be helpful.
20:12:08 [LeonieWatson]
JF: Let's do 11.30 tomorrow?
20:12:23 [LeonieWatson]
JS: Yes. Could throw in some media stuff as well.
20:12:45 [LeonieWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:12:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:13:24 [LeonieWatson]
zakim, next item
20:13:24 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "table summary: expanding use cases <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ReinstateTableSummary>" taken up [from Judy]
20:13:33 [Judy]
agenda?
20:14:34 [Judy]
agenda+ meeting time
20:14:52 [LeonieWatson]
JB: Issue is that we had a prepared response from Josh, feedback from Laura including two questions.
20:15:22 [LeonieWatson]
JB: Janina was going to review, and Lynne was going to look at the use cases.
20:16:01 [LeonieWatson]
JS: Yes, was going to compare against the chair's response.
20:16:10 [LeonieWatson]
JB: What's your timeline?
20:16:26 [LeonieWatson]
JS: Can do it for Tuesday, not sure about Monday.
20:16:42 [LeonieWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:16:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:17:36 [LeonieWatson]
JB: Wonder if there is a way to review this with Josh before then? Otherwise could run up against TPAC.
20:17:48 [LeonieWatson]
JS: Perhaps TPAC would give us a good opportunity to look at this?
20:18:23 [LeonieWatson]
JB: I think it would be a mistake not to move forward with things before then.
20:19:01 [LeonieWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:19:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:19:49 [LeonieWatson]
JS: The review needs a little care to make sure it addresses all the arguments from the chairs.
20:20:57 [LeonieWatson]
zakim, next item
20:20:57 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "generated content: update on new discussion sub-group <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13668>" taken up [from Judy]
20:21:55 [LeonieWatson]
JF: This may not be an issue. Need to look into it.
20:22:42 [LeonieWatson]
JF: Really would like to talk to Steve and Tab about this.
20:22:46 [Judy]
[john, janina, leonie, sub-team discussion on generated content]
20:23:29 [Judy]
agenda+ meta name generator, returning from TF
20:24:05 [LeonieWatson]
JB: What's the time frame for that conversation?
20:24:28 [LeonieWatson]
JF: It's been busy here, difficult to say.
20:24:45 [LeonieWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:24:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:25:51 [LeonieWatson]
JF: My instinct says there's something we need to look into here, but I'd like to be sure.
20:26:34 [LeonieWatson]
JF: Example is a background image added through scripting to identify a file format type in a link. To me, that's important information.
20:26:52 [LeonieWatson]
JF: I believe that could be a problem, but I'm not sure.
20:27:02 [LeonieWatson]
JS: It's something PF has discussed before.
20:27:21 [LeonieWatson]
JF: Tab says generated content should be exposed to the DOM and available to ATs.
20:28:10 [LeonieWatson]
JF: That's ok, but let's look at another use case. A form with required fields. There are programmatic techniques such as ARIA, but a visual indicator is also needed. If the same CSS selectors were used, that information would not be acknowledged by ATs.
20:28:25 [LeonieWatson]
JS: Would depend on the AT. You do need to know that a field is required.
20:29:05 [JF]
JF has joined #text
20:29:56 [LeonieWatson]
LW: We've experienced situations like this recently. Think the issue is worth exploring.
20:30:08 [LeonieWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:30:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:32:12 [LeonieWatson]
JB: Sounds like focus will be after longdesc and the response to Matt, and after the media check John?
20:32:18 [LeonieWatson]
JF: Yes.
20:32:59 [LeonieWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:32:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:34:06 [LeonieWatson]
JB: You can kick this off in the next week John?
20:34:20 [LeonieWatson]
JF: In the next couple of weeks. Think TPAC may be a good opportunity to talk.
20:34:28 [LeonieWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:34:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:34:32 [LeonieWatson]
zakim, next item
20:34:32 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "bug 8645, alt text for images <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8645>" taken up [from Judy]
20:35:40 [LeonieWatson]
JB: This came up from the TF telecon last week.
20:38:40 [LeonieWatson]
JF: Think we can close this by addressing each point.
20:38:47 [LeonieWatson]
JF: Point 5 has been overtaken by other stuff.
20:38:59 [LeonieWatson]
JF: Point 4 is addressed in Steve's document.
20:39:18 [LeonieWatson]
JF: Point 3 is being dealt with.
20:40:02 [LeonieWatson]
JF: With a little more time and research the rest of the points could also be addressed in similar ways.
20:41:14 [LeonieWatson]
JS: Best way to close this is with pointers to the duplicates and other information.
20:41:23 [LeonieWatson]
JF: Suggest push back to the bug triage team or ask someone else.
20:41:29 [LeonieWatson]
JS: Suggest Laura perhaps?
20:42:43 [LeonieWatson]
JS: Happy to contact Laura to ask.
20:42:49 [LeonieWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:42:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:43:15 [LeonieWatson]
zakim, next item
20:43:15 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "other business?" taken up [from Judy]
20:43:46 [Judy]
agenda?
20:44:49 [LeonieWatson]
zakim, take up item 8
20:44:49 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "meta name generator, returning from TF" taken up [from Judy]
20:45:52 [LeonieWatson]
JS: I didn't see any categorical statement that said it isn't cool to have an image without an alt.
20:46:07 [LeonieWatson]
JS: Seems to me we might want to say that.
20:46:34 [LeonieWatson]
JF: My understanding is that the metadata string in the header makes images without alt conforming.
20:47:23 [LeonieWatson]
JS: What I'm missing is the categorical statement that images must have alts.
20:48:08 [LeonieWatson]
JS: Metadata enables a dodge of this. We shouldn't condone a dodge.
20:48:41 [LeonieWatson]
JF: What's important is that images must have an alternative. How we provide that is a different thing.
20:49:14 [LeonieWatson]
JF: We need to say that all images, unless otherwise specified for a good reason, must have alternative text descriptions.
20:49:27 [LeonieWatson]
JS: I can go with that.
20:49:48 [LeonieWatson]
JF: You're suggesting a single sentence or statement?
20:50:10 [LeonieWatson]
JS: Yes. I'm nervous about not having this statement included.
20:50:25 [LeonieWatson]
JS: otherwise this is a great response, it's all good.
20:50:43 [LeonieWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:50:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:50:50 [JF]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming
20:52:10 [LeonieWatson]
JF: A summary would be a useful addition. It might also be a good place to include Janina's statement. Perhaps we could ask Steve to do this? The rest of the change request is very well drafted.
20:54:38 [LeonieWatson]
JS: What's the best way to follow up on this?
20:54:50 [LeonieWatson]
JS: I could take a look at the summary.
20:56:00 [LeonieWatson]
JB: There are a few things: The summary, couple of sentences to introduce the rationale, and a review of the flow of some of the content.
20:56:39 [LeonieWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:56:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
20:56:59 [LeonieWatson]
JS: I can take a run at this. My instinct is that it wouldn't take too long.
20:57:22 [LeonieWatson]
JS: Not sure I agree with the negative effect. Anyone else?
20:58:14 [LeonieWatson]
JF: I tend to agree. It's the Flikr use case. What to we do when someone uploads 200 pictures? We don't have an answer. I think Steve is saying that by insisting alt is provided, we're going to find a problem.
21:01:50 [LeonieWatson]
JB: Think this is a minor negative effect, and that should be stated. Metadata generator shouldn't be a get out clause though.
21:03:56 [LeonieWatson]
JB: Propose that Janina offers her thoughts on the negative impact and let's bring it back to the reading attention of this group as well.
21:04:33 [LeonieWatson]
JB: I think we should look at the conformance class change section.
21:04:41 [LeonieWatson]
JF: Rich might be the best person to look at this?
21:04:54 [LeonieWatson]
JB: Couldn't one of us articulate it?
21:05:26 [LeonieWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:05:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
21:05:29 [Judy]
agenda?
21:05:47 [LeonieWatson]
zakim, take up item 5
21:05:47 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "other business?" taken up [from Judy]
21:06:04 [LeonieWatson]
zakim, close item 8
21:06:04 [Zakim]
agendum 8, meta name generator, returning from TF, closed
21:06:05 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:06:06 [Zakim]
5. other business? [from Judy]
21:06:18 [LeonieWatson]
zakim, take up item 7
21:06:19 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "meeting time" taken up [from Judy]
21:06:36 [LeonieWatson]
JB: We had feedback from attendees that this time might work.
21:07:13 [LeonieWatson]
JB: Joshu, Laura and others have said this time would be difficult.
21:08:26 [Judy]
judy welcomes feedback from others not here today about this time-slot, in case we need to change off of mondays
21:10:13 [LeonieWatson]
JF: Any chance of pushing it later on a Tuesday?
21:10:27 [LeonieWatson]
JB: That would be tricky for UK folks.
21:10:51 [Judy]
s/UK/UK and CET/
21:10:58 [LeonieWatson]
JF: What about 2pm Boston (7pm GMT) or 11am my time?
21:11:49 [LeonieWatson]
JB: Will wait for feedback from others. Next week I think we'll keep it at this time.
21:12:01 [LeonieWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:12:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html LeonieWatson
21:13:03 [Zakim]
-Leonie
21:13:39 [Zakim]
-John_Foliot
21:14:03 [JF]
zakim, bye
21:14:03 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Judy, John_Foliot, Janina, Leonie
21:14:03 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #text
21:14:15 [JF]
rrsagent, make logs public
21:14:25 [JF]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:14:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-text-minutes.html JF
21:14:41 [JF]
rrsagent, please part
21:14:41 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items