IRC log of sparql on 2011-10-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:55:50 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #sparql

13:55:50 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-sparql-irc

13:55:52 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

13:55:52 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #sparql

13:55:54 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 77277

13:55:54 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

13:55:55 [trackbot]

Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference

13:55:55 [trackbot]

Date: 04 October 2011

13:55:56 [LeeF]

zakim, this will be SPARQL

13:55:56 [Zakim]

ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

13:56:03 [LeeF]

Chair: AxelPolleres

13:56:26 [LeeF]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011OctDec/0010.html

13:56:39 [Zakim]

SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started

13:56:45 [Zakim]

+??P2

13:56:55 [NickH]

zakim, ??P2 is me

13:56:55 [Zakim]

+NickH; got it

13:57:04 [NickH]

zakim, mute me

13:57:04 [Zakim]

sorry, NickH, muting is not permitted when only one person is present

13:57:09 [NickH]

heh

13:57:14 [kasei]

ha

13:57:29 [cbuilara]

cbuilara has joined #sparql

13:57:29 [LeeF]

why in the world would that be?

13:57:30 [Zakim]

+kasei

13:57:36 [NickH]

zakim, mute me

13:57:36 [Zakim]

NickH should now be muted

13:58:10 [LeeF]

Regrets: SteveH, Chimezie

13:59:22 [Zakim]

+??P4

13:59:31 [cbuilara]

zakim, ??P4 is me

13:59:31 [Zakim]

+cbuilara; got it

13:59:42 [Zakim]

+ +1.781.899.aaaa

13:59:51 [sandro]

zakim, aaaa is Sandro

13:59:51 [Zakim]

+Sandro; got it

13:59:57 [Zakim]

+??P19

14:00:04 [Zakim]

+Bernard

14:00:07 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P19 is me

14:00:07 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:00:10 [MattPerry]

MattPerry has joined #sparql

14:00:18 [AndyS]

kasei - not had a chance yet.

14:00:58 [Zakim]

+ +1.603.897.aabb

14:00:58 [kasei]

AndyS: ok. i'll try to work through it in more depth

14:01:11 [MattPerry]

zakim, aabb is me

14:01:11 [Zakim]

+MattPerry; got it

14:01:40 [Zakim]

+ +1.540.841.aacc

14:02:04 [pgearon]

Zakim, aacc is me

14:02:07 [Zakim]

+pgearon; got it

14:03:25 [Zakim]

+ +1.617.553.aadd

14:03:29 [LeeF]

zakim, aadd is me

14:03:29 [Zakim]

+LeeF; got it

14:03:55 [Zakim]

+??P29

14:04:16 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:04:16 [Zakim]

On the phone I see NickH (muted), kasei, cbuilara, Sandro, AndyS, Bernard, MattPerry, pgearon, LeeF, ??P29

14:04:39 [LeeF]

zakim, ??P29 is AxelPolleres

14:04:48 [Zakim]

+AxelPolleres; got it

14:05:11 [LeeF]

zakim, Bernard is Olivier

14:05:11 [Zakim]

+Olivier; got it

14:05:13 [bglimm]

bglimm has joined #sparql

14:05:50 [LeeF]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011OctDec/0010.html

14:06:18 [kasei]

I can

14:06:23 [LeeF]

scribenick: kasei

14:06:27 [LeeF]

topic: admin

14:06:39 [Zakim]

+ +49.731.502.aaee

14:06:40 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: Approve minutes from http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-09-27

14:06:56 [bglimm]

Zakim, +49.731.502.aaee is me

14:06:56 [Zakim]

+bglimm; got it

14:07:00 [bglimm]

Zakim, mute me

14:07:00 [Zakim]

bglimm should now be muted

14:07:08 [LeeF]

RESOLVED: Approve minutes from http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-09-27

14:07:36 [LeeF]

Next regular meeting: 2011-10-11 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Sandro)

14:07:45 [Olivier]

regrets for next week

14:07:48 [AxelPolleres]

AxelPolleres has joined #sparql

14:07:53 [LeeF]

next week regrets: axel & olivier

14:08:17 [kasei]

topic: liaison with RDF WG

14:08:25 [Olivier]

Olivier has joined #sparql

14:08:35 [kasei]

AndyS: not much progress... named graphs discussions continue.

14:08:59 [kasei]

... been waiting on concensus on discussion on RDF Datasets

14:09:11 [kasei]

... until entire framework is resolved, wouldn't want to make changes.

14:09:29 [kasei]

... we're not at a point yet where we have to decide.

14:09:37 [kasei]

LeeF: I don't think the current wording is a problem.

14:09:48 [kasei]

... hasn't caused problems with implementors.

14:10:07 [LeeF]

topic: string functions

14:10:28 [kasei]

LeeF: continuing dicussion from Jeen's comment on motivation for string functions

14:10:36 [kasei]

... 1- vs. 0-indexed functions

14:10:47 [kasei]

... trying to decide why we don't have an index function

14:11:01 [kasei]

... substring-before and substring-after handle same use cases

14:11:13 [kasei]

... Andy proposed adding substring-before, substring-after, and replace functions.

14:11:21 [kasei]

... some support for that.

14:11:35 [kasei]

... questions: some other functions from RIF. should we include them?

14:11:48 [kasei]

... also from greg regarding unicode.

14:11:56 [AndyS]

q+ to ask Axel about fn:string-join

14:12:31 [LeeF]

kasei: if we ground these functions in the XSD definitions of substring before and substring after, i looked at the definition and wasn't sure i could implement them

14:12:42 [AndyS]

q+ to say without "collation" as with other functions.

14:12:45 [LeeF]

... seemed like it required deep understanding of lots of specs to do the pattern matching properly

14:13:05 [LeeF]

AndyS: We could add without the versions with collation

14:13:11 [kasei]

AndyS: i think we'd add them without the collation. we haven't adopted collation forms of other functions in the past.

14:13:37 [kasei]

... implemented in ~3 lines of java. nothing unusual going on.

14:13:51 [AxelPolleres]

fine without collation (ie, standard codepoint collation always)?

14:14:29 [kasei]

AxelPolleres: those functions have two variants. with and without collation.

14:14:38 [kasei]

... proposal here is to adopt the non-collation versions?

14:14:43 [kasei]

AndyS: yes

14:15:11 [AndyS]

ack me

14:15:11 [Zakim]

AndyS, you wanted to ask Axel about fn:string-join and to say without "collation" as with other functions.

14:15:13 [kasei]

LeeF: other functions: string-join, some stuff about IRIs

14:15:25 [kasei]

AxelPolleres: IRI to URI

14:15:46 [kasei]

AndyS: why do you want to add str-join? what's the difference over what we've already got?

14:15:54 [kasei]

AxelPolleres: I had overlooked it.

14:16:07 [kasei]

AxelPolleres: str-join isn't the same as concat. adding a separator.

14:16:29 [kasei]

... we didn't have sequences in RIF. arbitrary number of parameters with a separator.

14:16:38 [kasei]

AndyS: you can write the same thing with concat.

14:16:49 [kasei]

... arbitrary length list is really fixed by syntax

14:17:22 [Zakim]

-cbuilara

14:17:24 [kasei]

LeeF: what about the other functions?

14:17:47 [kasei]

AxelPolleres: should go through them since we have them in RIF.

14:18:47 [LeeF]

LeeF: what is the IRI to URI function all about?

14:18:55 [LeeF]

AxelPolleres: opeates on strings and converts from URIs to IRIs

14:18:57 [kasei]

ah. fixed. thanks LeeF.

14:19:03 [Zakim]

+??P10

14:19:15 [AndyS]

And it's not reversible? No uri to iri function in RIF?

14:19:16 [cbuilara_]

cbuilara_ has joined #sparql

14:19:40 [kasei]

AxelPolleres: third function is escape-html-uri

14:19:51 [kasei]

... comes from xpath/xquery functions.

14:20:06 [kasei]

... escapes non-printable characters

14:20:20 [kasei]

... for use in attribute values.

14:20:26 [Zakim]

-??P10

14:20:40 [kasei]

LeeF: we didn't set out trying to match RIF functions. haven't heard from anybody asking for these functions.

14:20:44 [kasei]

... inclined to leave them out.

14:20:46 [Zakim]

+??P10

14:20:49 [cbuilara_]

zakim, ??P10 is me

14:20:49 [Zakim]

+cbuilara_; got it

14:20:59 [kasei]

AxelPolleres: that's fine.

14:21:24 [kasei]

AndyS: seems troublesome to have one-way functions.

14:21:33 [kasei]

... string-join isn't the same as the F&O function.

14:21:39 [kasei]

... does RIF define it to be the same as F&O?

14:22:25 [kasei]

AxelPolleres: defines in terms of string-join by converting args (minus the separator) to a sequence

14:22:43 [Zakim]

-cbuilara_

14:22:46 [kasei]

LeeF: I'm not hearing anybody advocating for it.

14:22:50 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: Include STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE in SPARQL 1.1 Query (only the versions without collations)

14:23:07 [kasei]

q+

14:23:11 [LeeF]

ack kasei

14:23:36 [LeeF]

kasei: should we discuss whether this works with language literals and datatype literals?

14:24:20 [LeeF]

see http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#func-starts

14:24:32 [kasei]

AndyS: roughly, if the arguments are the same, you can match them. otherwise you can't.

14:25:11 [kasei]

AndyS: does STR() implicitly on the args.

14:25:17 [kasei]

LeeF: they return strings, though.

14:25:38 [kasei]

AndyS: wold have to think about it. either it's a plain string, or it's the same as the input string.

14:25:58 [kasei]

LeeF: inclination would be to have the result be the same as the input.

14:26:35 [AndyS]

and consistency with CONTAINS

14:26:38 [Zakim]

+??P10

14:26:44 [cbuilara_]

zakim, ??P10 is me

14:26:44 [Zakim]

+cbuilara_; got it

14:27:05 [kasei]

LeeF: what does SUBSTR do? returns language tags?

14:27:13 [kasei]

AndyS: yes, returns same form as principle argument.

14:27:19 [kasei]

LeeF: so should do the same thing as SUBSTR.

14:28:13 [kasei]

+1

14:28:18 [AxelPolleres]

+1

14:28:22 [LeeF]

(to the proposal above)

14:28:34 [LeeF]

RESOLVED: Include STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE in SPARQL 1.1 Query (only the versions without collations)

14:29:03 [kasei]

AndyS: will somebody do the tests?

14:29:04 [AndyS]

ACTION AndyS Draft text for STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE

14:29:04 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-537 - Draft text for STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-10-11].

14:29:32 [kasei]

I can do the tests

14:29:45 [LeeF]

ACTION: greg to write tests for STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE

14:29:45 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-538 - Write tests for STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE [on Gregory Williams - due 2011-10-11].

14:30:16 [kasei]

LeeF: this should be enough to reply to Jeen?

14:30:23 [kasei]

AndyS: for the first part. haven't dealt with hash functions yet.

14:30:45 [kasei]

LeeF: based on last week's discussion, we have concensus on keeping string functions 1-indexed.

14:31:11 [kasei]

topic: hash functions

14:31:34 [LeeF]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JulSep/0314.html

14:31:37 [kasei]

LeeF: Andy listed 3 proposals in email.

14:31:57 [LeeF]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JulSep/0320.html

14:32:32 [kasei]

... proposal 5 in that link was based on what xml digital signature group includes.

14:32:48 [kasei]

... discussion on whether MD5 should be included due to security concerns.

14:32:57 [kasei]

sandro: xml dig sig group does not include MD5

14:33:15 [AndyS]

Who actively supports any SHA2-isms?

14:33:30 [sandro]

"who" in what sense?

14:33:39 [kasei]

LeeF: variables on proposals being whether we include MD5, whether we include 3 variants of SHA2

14:33:41 [AndyS]

"who" = WG member

14:34:06 [kasei]

... proposal 5 is what's in the draft now but without SHA-224(?)

14:34:17 [sandro]

+1 SHA2

14:34:29 [pgearon]

+q

14:34:48 [LeeF]

ack pgearon

14:35:15 [kasei]

pgearon: agree MD5 isn't secure, but run into use cases with legacy mysql code using MD5. convenient to be able to talk to those systems.

14:35:28 [kasei]

... would like to support inclusion of MD5

14:35:37 [MattPerry]

Oracle Database supports MD4, MD5 and SHA1

14:36:01 [kasei]

sandro: should include some note about MD5 not being secure w.r.t. cryptography, but included for non-crypto uses.

14:36:28 [kasei]

LeeF: easiest proposal is to remove SHA224. small change, addresses comment, mesh well with existing practice.

14:36:31 [AndyS]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD5#Security "severe compromised" (for security)

14:36:59 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: Remove SHA224 from SPARQL 1.1 Query; add text noting that MD5 shouldnot be used for cryptographic applications

14:37:05 [sandro]

+1

14:37:05 [AndyS]

Only 2^24.1 ops -> easy!

14:37:06 [kasei]

+1

14:37:12 [AndyS]

+1

14:37:25 [AxelPolleres]

+1

14:37:28 [LeeF]

RESOLVED: Remove SHA224 from SPARQL 1.1 Query; add text noting that MD5 shouldnot be used for cryptographic applications

14:38:04 [AndyS]

ACTION AndyS Remove SHA224 from rq25; respond to JB-7

14:38:04 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-539 - Remove SHA224 from rq25; respond to JB-7 [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-10-11].

14:38:35 [AxelPolleres]

q+ to ask about richard's comment

14:38:48 [kasei]

topic: comments

14:39:03 [LeeF]

ack AxelPolleres

14:39:03 [Zakim]

AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask about richard's comment

14:39:27 [kasei]

AxelPolleres: what do people think about adding clarifying wording w.r.t. RDF datasets?

14:39:42 [kasei]

LeeF: discussed earlier about waiting on RDF WG's discussion about datasets.

14:39:52 [AndyS]

+1 to wait ; happy to improve text .... once

14:39:59 [kasei]

LeeF: hold off on replying to Richard

14:40:14 [Zakim]

-NickH

14:40:26 [AndyS]

Owner for this comment?

14:40:32 [LeeF]

close ACTION-527

14:40:32 [trackbot]

ACTION-527 Let us know where the impl report code is in git and to put the generated report file somewhere in our CVS space closed

14:40:48 [kasei]

topic: actions

14:40:52 [AxelPolleres]

AndyS, I can take the comment.

14:41:11 [AndyS]

Cool - do you want to add to wiki/Comments?

14:41:26 [kasei]

AxelPolleres: would Matt and Andy be able to review document before last call?

14:41:26 [MattPerry]

sure

14:41:48 [kasei]

AndyS: should be able to take a look

14:41:53 [AndyS]

Yes ( how much change?)

14:42:01 [LeeF]

ACTION: Matthew to review the overview document after Axel sends a go-ahead

14:42:01 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-540 - Review the overview document after Axel sends a go-ahead [on Matthew Perry - due 2011-10-11].

14:42:06 [LeeF]

ACTION: Andy to review the overview document after Axel sends a go-ahead

14:42:06 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-541 - Review the overview document after Axel sends a go-ahead [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-10-11].

14:43:22 [bglimm]

How will be at ISWC?

14:43:28 [bglimm]

Zakim, unmute me

14:43:28 [Zakim]

bglimm should no longer be muted

14:43:36 [AxelPolleres]

will be there

14:43:37 [kasei]

I will

14:43:41 [AndyS]

I will be at ISWC

14:43:46 [bglimm]

I will

14:43:52 [AndyS]

SPARQL tutorial ...

14:44:08 [MattPerry]

bye

14:44:09 [Zakim]

-LeeF

14:44:11 [MattPerry]

\quit

14:44:13 [Zakim]

-AxelPolleres

14:44:15 [Zakim]

-MattPerry

14:44:15 [Zakim]

-pgearon

14:44:16 [Zakim]

-Olivier

14:44:17 [Zakim]

-bglimm

14:44:19 [Zakim]

-cbuilara_

14:44:22 [Zakim]

-Sandro

14:44:29 [Zakim]

-kasei

14:44:34 [AndyS]

I'll fix the tests for (removal of) SHA224

14:44:37 [Zakim]

-AndyS

14:44:38 [Zakim]

SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended

14:44:40 [Zakim]

Attendees were NickH, kasei, cbuilara, +1.781.899.aaaa, Sandro, AndyS, +1.603.897.aabb, MattPerry, +1.540.841.aacc, pgearon, +1.617.553.aadd, LeeF, AxelPolleres, Olivier, bglimm,

14:44:42 [Zakim]

... cbuilara_

14:44:50 [AxelPolleres]

rrsagent, make records public

14:45:33 [AxelPolleres]

greg, will you do the minutes?

14:46:06 [kasei]

yeah

14:46:29 [AxelPolleres]

alright, thnx!

14:47:33 [kasei]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-10-04

15:20:27 [kasei]

should numeric types be acceptable arguments to STRBEFORE? e.g. STRBEFORE(123, "3")

15:24:21 [kasei]

AndyS?

15:24:44 [AndyS]

(in a call)

15:24:52 [kasei]

ok

16:01:07 [kasei]

and we're doing the whole captured sub-pattern thing in REPLACE()?

16:15:20 [AndyS]

kasei, I found that REPLACE was std pattern - it's lready in Java and the syntax is perl (to within obscure flags)

16:16:37 [AndyS]

The examples in F&O made it look more different that it actually is.

16:16:45 [AndyS]

Very like sed.

16:27:34 [kasei]

hrm

16:27:57 [kasei]

any thoughts on the strbefore/after numerics question? are we operating simply at the lexical level?

16:29:49 [kasei]

also, when run against, e.g., "foo"@en, should failing to match and returning "the empty string" actually return ""@en?

16:40:34 [pgearon]

pgearon has joined #sparql

16:45:04 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #sparql

16:56:17 [AndyS]

What does strstarts do? strstarts(123, "12") ==> error. strstarts(str(123), "12") => true

17:07:43 [kasei]

so only operates on xsd:string, and plain literals?

17:53:40 [AndyS]

kasei - I think thats the way to go (do you?) -- consistency with other ops important. Same out as primary arg (string being inspected - arg1)

17:53:51 [AndyS]

need to do the spec details. We shall see.

18:04:49 [kasei]

sorry. queued up too much. were you agreeing that empty-string-return should pass through language tags?

18:07:37 [AndyS]

Yes (with caveat I haven't spec'ed and done the details). Seems in the spirit of SPARQL.

18:07:51 [kasei]

yeah, ok.

18:08:48 [AndyS]

(Not sure when I will have time to grunge the details.)

18:51:31 [kasei]

i've just committed new tests for STRBEFORE, STRAFTER, and REPLACE.

18:51:49 [kasei]

probably more needed, but this is a first cut.

18:53:25 [pgearon_]

pgearon_ has joined #sparql