15:57:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #RDB2RDF
15:57:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-RDB2RDF-irc
15:57:11 <Ashok> zakim, this will be RDB2RDF
15:57:11 <Zakim> ok, Ashok; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
15:57:22 <Ashok> chair: Ashok
15:57:31 <Ashok> meeting:  RDB2RDF
15:57:48 <Ashok> regrets: Michael, Percy
15:58:31 <dmcneil> dmcneil has joined #RDB2RDF
15:59:13 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
15:59:20 <Zakim> + +1.314.394.aaaa
15:59:39 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
16:00:29 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:00:29 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:00:30 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:00:39 <Zakim> + +49.133.6.aabb
16:00:45 <cygri_> cygri_ has joined #rdb2rdf
16:01:05 <ivan> zakim, drop me
16:01:05 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
16:01:06 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:01:06 <boris> zakim, aabb is boris
16:01:06 <Zakim> +boris; got it
16:01:14 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:01:14 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:01:15 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:02:20 <Zakim> + +3539149aacc
16:02:28 <Zakim> + +575737aadd
16:02:32 <juansequeda> Zakim, aadd is me
16:02:32 <Zakim> +juansequeda; got it
16:03:01 <nunolopes> nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF
16:03:13 <nunolopes> Zakim, who is here?
16:03:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.314.394.aaaa, Ashok_Malhotra, Ivan, boris, +3539149aacc, juansequeda
16:03:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see nunolopes, cygri, dmcneil, RRSAgent, Zakim, Ashok, boris, juansequeda, MacTed, LeeF, iv_an_ru__, ivan, betehess, trackbot, ericP
16:03:29 <nunolopes> Zakim, aacc is me
16:03:29 <Zakim> +nunolopes; got it
16:03:42 <Ashok> present:  David, Ivan, Boris, Nuno, Richard, Juan
16:04:03 <Zakim> + +1.562.714.aaee
16:04:16 <Ashok> present+: Marcelo
16:05:00 <Ashok> scribenick:  dmcneil
16:05:04 <cygri> zakim, aacc is temporarily me
16:05:04 <Zakim> sorry, cygri, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
16:05:13 <cygri> zakim, i'm with nuno
16:05:13 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
16:05:48 <Souri> Souri has joined #RDB2RDF
16:05:56 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaff
16:05:59 <seema> seema has joined #rdb2rdf
16:06:09 <dmcneil> minutes from last week http://www.w3.org/2011/09/27-RDB2RDF-minutes.html
16:06:15 <Souri> zakim, aaff is me
16:06:15 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
16:06:27 <Ashok> present+: Souri, Seema
16:06:49 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aagg
16:07:02 <seema> Zakim, aagg is me
16:07:02 <Zakim> +seema; got it
16:07:14 <dmcneil> accept minutes from last week?
16:07:37 <dmcneil> RESOLUTION: accept minutes from last week
16:07:54 <Marcelo> Marcelo has joined #rdb2rdf
16:08:17 <dmcneil> ashok would like to address two items that were not on the agenda 1) comments we have received so far
16:08:35 <dmcneil> 2) if eric joins us, talk about ISSUE-69
16:08:48 <cygri> zakim, who is noisy
16:08:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', cygri
16:08:53 <Ashok> Topic:  Last Call Comments
16:08:53 <dmcneil> souri, what have you found in the last call comments?
16:08:54 <cygri> zakim, who is noisy?
16:09:06 <Zakim> cygri, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ashok_Malhotra (19%), Souri (100%), +1.562.714.aaee (5%)
16:09:54 <Zakim> +EricP
16:10:10 <Ashok> present+: Eric
16:10:30 <dmcneil> souri replied to the commenters answering some immediate questions, and letting them know we will follow up with the other questions
16:11:12 <ivan> q+
16:11:15 <dmcneil> any other reactions to last call comments?
16:12:17 <dmcneil> ivan: we need a very precise record of all last call comments, and references to the answers, and indication of whether the response was accepted by the commenter
16:12:29 <Souri> That's how we did it in the SPARQL 1.0 working group ... it worked out well as far as I remember
16:12:35 <cygri> q+ to ask for an example how other WGs did it
16:12:38 <dmcneil> this is needed to demonstrate to the w3c that we addressed all comments, in particular those from outside of the working group
16:13:23 <dmcneil> this could be done in a wiki page or in the issue tracker
16:13:36 <cygri> ack me
16:13:36 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask for an example how other WGs did it
16:13:54 <dmcneil> ivan could try to provide a link to example wiki pages from other working groups
16:14:04 <dmcneil> ashok: with an example we could start a page for the group to use
16:15:03 <dmcneil> ashok: what did sparql working group do?
16:15:49 <dmcneil> eric: for that working group we left the questions and the handling of them in the mailing list
16:16:09 <dmcneil> most comments were addressed by pointing commenter to a section of the spec
16:16:11 <ivan> q+
16:16:19 <dmcneil> some involved modification of the spec
16:16:24 <Zakim> + +1.781.273.aahh
16:16:34 <MacTed> Zakim, aahh is OpenLink_Software
16:16:34 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
16:16:38 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:16:38 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:16:40 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:16:40 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:16:56 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Responses_to_Comments#First_Round
16:16:57 <dmcneil> they used the subject line to indicate when a comment was "satsified"
16:17:06 <Ashok> present+: Ted
16:17:14 <dmcneil> ivan: this is a link to how the OWL group handled last call comments
16:17:50 <dmcneil> this was easy to do, the work could be distributed, members just had to know a little bit about wiki
16:18:31 <dmcneil> ashok: a bit biased towards wiki
16:19:08 <dmcneil> ivan: the RDFa working group created a new product in Tracker for the Last Call
16:19:36 <dmcneil> this allowed mailing list items to be tied into Tracker items
16:19:56 <dmcneil> eric: mailing list was all that existed at the time for SPARQL working group
16:19:58 <Ashok> q+
16:20:03 <ivan> q-
16:20:14 <Ashok> ack next
16:20:22 <dmcneil> ashok: ivan, michael, and ashok can talk about it
16:20:36 <dmcneil> next agenda item, ACTION-159
16:20:42 <dmcneil> ACTION-159
16:20:43 <ivan> ACTION-159?
16:20:43 <trackbot> ACTION-159 -- Boris Villazón-Terrazas to create RDFa representation of R2RML vocab -- due 2011-09-27 -- OPEN
16:20:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/159
16:20:47 <boris> http://www.w3.org/ns/r2rml
16:21:20 <dmcneil> boris has started on it and is still working on it, would like the working group to review it
16:22:02 <dmcneil> ivan: it is 99% done
16:22:19 <dmcneil> next agenda item, the test cases
16:22:28 <boris> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/test-cases/TCOverview.html
16:22:32 <Ashok> Topic:  Test Cases
16:22:44 <Ashok> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/test-cases/TCOverview.html
16:22:48 <boris> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/R2RML_TC
16:24:04 <dmcneil> Topic: ISSUE-69?
16:24:14 <dmcneil> ISSUE-69?
16:24:14 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
16:25:02 <dmcneil> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/69
16:25:27 <dmcneil> ashok: can you summarize the differences (eric & richard)
16:25:43 <dmcneil> eric: do we give people a recipe or a behavior specification
16:26:39 <dmcneil> e.g. how to represent a decimal in an RDF graph
16:27:07 <dmcneil> define a maximum size for the purposes of interop
16:27:56 <dmcneil> e.g. dates vary in size, depending how far in the future or past needs to be referenced more or less digits are needed
16:28:13 <dmcneil> for dates SQL only allows from 1 to 9999
16:28:23 <dmcneil> most implementations exceed that, but they are outside of the spec
16:28:53 <dmcneil> so what is the minimum behavior to expect from an implementation
16:29:26 <dmcneil> cygri: it is simpler that this, we will define the mapping from a SQL-2008 database to RDF
16:29:43 <dmcneil> but SQL-2008 leaves the number of supported decimal digits open to implementors
16:29:50 <dmcneil> e.g. Oracle allows up to 38 digits
16:30:26 <dmcneil> XSD specs only allows for up to 18 digits
16:30:42 <dmcneil> according to what eric is proposing, Oracle would have to throw away 20 digits
16:30:47 <dmcneil> this seems bizarre to me
16:31:15 <dmcneil> eric: they don't have to throw it away, it is just this is not defined in the direct mapping
16:31:34 <dmcneil> this is outside of the spec, and interop may not be possible
16:32:11 <dmcneil> cygri maintains that the spec mandates throwing away digits to be compliant
16:33:36 <MacTed> this is handled in ODBC and similar by implicit transformations from (for instance) a numeric, e.g., INT(38), to a string, e.g., CHAR(38) -- with the idea generally to preserving the value, but not necessarily the datatype
16:34:00 <dmcneil> cygri: it is very common for relational databases and RDF implementations to allow more than 18 digits
16:34:50 <dmcneil> eric: I need to specify the minimum bar that implementor must meet so that we can write test cases
16:35:20 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:35:20 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:35:24 <dmcneil> ashok: do others have opinions?
16:36:26 <dmcneil> ted: ODBC handles this by allowing implicit data transformations, for example from a number with 38 digits to a string with 38 characters
16:36:39 <cygri> q+ to push back on EricP's claim that no valid test cases can be written
16:36:46 <dmcneil> this is spelled out to a degree in ODBC, but it does not specify everything
16:38:35 <dmcneil> dmcneil: are we just talking about the direct mapping?
16:38:43 <cygri> +1 to ashok
16:38:57 <Souri> +1 to putting it in both
16:39:03 <dmcneil> ashok: I thought each spec should have a section on this
16:39:14 <dmcneil> so we are talking about both specs
16:39:21 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-r2rml-20110920/#datatype-conversions
16:39:29 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-rdb-direct-mapping-20110920/#defn-literal_map
16:40:44 <dmcneil> eric: what numbers can be used in test cases
16:41:07 <dmcneil> cygri: the maximum size of numbers is specified in the SQL specs
16:41:20 <dmcneil> for decimal, it leaves the upper range open
16:42:27 <dmcneil> eric: what is the minimum number of digits that a SQL implementation must support for decimal numbers
16:42:36 <dmcneil> cygri: why does this matter?
16:42:47 <dmcneil> eric: it affects what we can test against
16:43:24 <dmcneil> this tells the user what size of number they can plan on using with R2RML
16:44:34 <dmcneil> ted: what happens when the database exceeds the XSD size?
16:45:49 <dmcneil> ashok: the question is: do we have to worry about it?
16:46:00 <dmcneil> ted: we could say that this behavior is undefined
16:46:40 <dmcneil> when we try to test edge-cases this becomes relevant
16:48:10 <dmcneil> ashok: possible position, we write that if your datatypes are within the SQL standard and the XML schema standard then this is the behavior, if they are bigger then the behavior is not defined, and we don't write test cases for these
16:48:52 <ericP> Ashok: "if your datatypes are inside of SQL *AND* XSD, this is the behavior. if not, it's undefined and we won't write test cases [outside of the intersection of the intersection of XSD *AND* SQL]"
16:49:08 <dmcneil> ted: so we would remove the part of the direct mapping spec that refers to discarding digits
16:50:37 <dmcneil> eric can take a shot at writing this up for the spec
16:51:17 <dmcneil> cygri doesn't see a case for changing the approach of the R2RML spec, but could add wording saying behavior is undefined if the data is outside of the XSD datatype size restrictions
16:51:51 <dmcneil> eric: as a user I would like to know what the minimum implemenation requirement is
16:52:14 <dmcneil> s/implemenation/implementation/
16:56:34 <dmcneil> long discussion that lead to a discussion of vendor specific types
16:57:30 <dmcneil> ashok: my inclination is to say less about what happens when the data is outside of the spec
16:58:14 <Souri> +1 to Ashok's proposed text
16:58:27 <dmcneil> Topic: Implementations
16:58:48 <dmcneil> wiki page says some implementations will be available in early 2011
16:58:55 <dmcneil> but we can talk about this next week
16:59:22 <Zakim> -Souri
16:59:24 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:59:26 <Zakim> - +1.314.394.aaaa
16:59:26 <Zakim> -seema
16:59:26 <Zakim> -EricP
16:59:27 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
16:59:27 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:59:28 <Zakim> -boris
16:59:29 <Zakim> -nunolopes
16:59:35 <Zakim> - +1.562.714.aaee
16:59:36 <Zakim> -juansequeda
16:59:37 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has ended
16:59:39 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.314.394.aaaa, Ashok_Malhotra, Ivan, +49.133.6.aabb, boris, +3539149aacc, +575737aadd, juansequeda, nunolopes, +1.562.714.aaee, cygri, +1.603.897.aaff, Souri,
16:59:43 <Zakim> ... +1.603.897.aagg, seema, EricP, +1.781.273.aahh, MacTed
16:59:46 <Ashok> rrsagent, make logs public
16:59:55 <Ashok> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:59:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/10/04-RDB2RDF-minutes.html Ashok
17:04:34 <nunolopes> nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF
18:27:25 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
18:37:45 <betehess> betehess has joined #RDB2RDF
18:57:45 <Zakim> Zakim has left #RDB2RDF
19:22:16 <nunolopes> nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF
20:00:38 <betehess> betehess has joined #RDB2RDF
21:50:15 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
22:38:53 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
22:49:12 <LeeF> LeeF has joined #rdb2rdf
23:05:56 <iv_an_ru__> iv_an_ru__ has joined #rdb2rdf