IRC log of rdf-wg on 2011-09-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:05 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:05 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:58:39 [pfps]
scribenick pfps
14:59:18 [gavinc]
trackbot, start meeting
14:59:20 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:59:22 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 73394
14:59:22 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:23 [trackbot]
Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:59:23 [trackbot]
Date: 28 September 2011
14:59:58 [AlexHall]
AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:09 [Arnaud]
Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:38 [pfps]
scribenick: pfps
15:00:43 [Guus]
zakim, who is here?
15:00:43 [Zakim]
SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus
15:00:44 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, stain, yvesr_,
15:00:47 [Zakim]
... sandro, ericP
15:01:11 [PatH]
PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:30 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's here?
15:01:30 [Zakim]
SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, MacTed
15:01:31 [Zakim]
On IRC I see PatH, Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, stain,
15:01:33 [Zakim]
... yvesr_, sandro, ericP
15:01:36 [MacTed]
Zakim, this is 73394
15:01:36 [Zakim]
ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:01:38 [Zakim]
15:01:39 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's here?
15:01:40 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +31.20.598.aaaa, Tony, +, +1.443.212.aacc, OpenLink_Software, Arnaud, +1.707.861.aadd, bhyland
15:01:44 [Zakim]
On IRC I see PatH, Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, stain,
15:01:47 [Zakim]
... yvesr_, sandro, ericP
15:01:48 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:01:49 [Zakim]
15:01:50 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
15:01:51 [gavinc]
zakim, aadd is me
15:01:53 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
15:01:55 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
15:01:57 [Zakim]
+gavinc; got it
15:01:58 [AlexHall]
zakim, aacc is me
15:01:59 [davidwood]
zakim, bhyland is me
15:02:01 [Zakim]
+ +44.207.923.aaee
15:02:03 [Scott_Bauer]
zakim, Tony is me
15:02:05 [Zakim]
+AlexHall; got it
15:02:06 [pfps]
scribenick: pfps
15:02:07 [Zakim]
+davidwood; got it
15:02:09 [Zakim]
+Scott_Bauer; got it
15:02:14 [Guus]
zakim, +31.20.598.aaaa is me
15:02:17 [Zakim]
+Guus; got it
15:02:18 [Arnaud]
fyi, I will have to drop at the hour
15:02:21 [pchampin]
pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:28 [pfps]
topic: Admin
15:02:41 [Zakim]
15:03:09 [cmatheus]
cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:15 [yvesr_]
Zakim, who's on the call?
15:03:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Guus, Scott_Bauer, +, AlexHall, MacTed (muted), Arnaud, gavinc, davidwood, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +44.207.923.aaee, PatH
15:03:15 [AZ]
zakim, aabb is me
15:03:18 [PatH]
I will have to drop out in 30 mins for a short while.
15:03:18 [Zakim]
+AZ; got it
15:03:27 [yvesr_]
Zakim, +44.207.923.aaee is me
15:03:27 [Zakim]
+yvesr_; got it
15:03:32 [yvesr_]
Zakim, mute me
15:03:32 [Zakim]
yvesr_ should now be muted
15:03:37 [Guus]
zakim, who is here?
15:03:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Guus, Scott_Bauer, AZ, AlexHall, MacTed (muted), Arnaud, gavinc, davidwood, Peter_Patel-Schneider, yvesr_ (muted), PatH
15:03:37 [zwu2]
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15:03:39 [Zakim]
On IRC I see cmatheus, pchampin, PatH, Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood,
15:03:41 [Zakim]
... trackbot, stain, yvesr_, sandro, ericP
15:03:45 [Zakim]
+ +1.781.899.aaff
15:03:45 [zwu2]
zakim, code?
15:03:47 [Zakim]
the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, zwu2
15:03:55 [sandro]
zakim, aaff is Sandro
15:03:55 [Zakim]
+Sandro; got it
15:04:04 [Zakim]
15:04:12 [pchampin]
zakim, ??P34 is me
15:04:12 [Zakim]
+pchampin; got it
15:04:14 [pchampin]
zakim, mute me
15:04:14 [Zakim]
pchampin should now be muted
15:04:28 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.265.aagg
15:04:33 [PatH]
zakim, mute me
15:04:33 [Zakim]
PatH should now be muted
15:04:39 [zwu2]
zakim, aagg is me
15:04:39 [Zakim]
+zwu2; got it
15:04:49 [zwu2]
zakim, mute me
15:04:50 [Zakim]
zwu2 should now be muted
15:04:52 [pfps]
PROPOSED: accept minutes of 21 Sep
15:05:03 [PatH]
15:05:21 [pfps]
RESOLVED: accept minutes of 21 Sep
15:05:33 [pfps]
guus: action items - pending
15:05:54 [AndyS]
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15:06:16 [Zakim]
15:06:37 [yvesr_]
done :)
15:06:49 [pfps]
guus: 77 done, 89 [done], 90 done, 91 done
15:06:51 [Souri]
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15:07:02 [pfps]
guus: open actions
15:07:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.603.897.aahh
15:07:18 [Souri]
zakim, aahh is me
15:07:19 [Zakim]
+Souri; got it
15:07:27 [pfps]
guus: action 82 - Sandro?
15:07:42 [pfps]
sandro: no action yet - will try this week
15:07:53 [pfps]
guus: action 86 - Sandro?
15:08:08 [sandro]
15:08:08 [trackbot]
ACTION-86 -- Sandro Hawke to provide example for how code is simpler with language-tag options 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2. -- due 2011-09-14 -- OPEN
15:08:08 [trackbot]
15:08:35 [pfps]
sandro: 86 is either done or obsolete
15:08:41 [pfps]
guus: everything is to continue
15:08:43 [sandro]
it's both!
15:09:07 [pfps]
TOPIC: F2F planning
15:09:12 [pfps]
guus: anything to be done
15:09:14 [sandro]
is it disjunction and/or conjunction? :-)
15:09:22 [yvesr_]
Zakim, unmute me
15:09:23 [Zakim]
yvesr_ should no longer be muted
15:09:51 [pfps]
davidwood: note that times have changed (and are now aligned)
15:09:53 [yvesr_]
Zakim, mute me
15:09:53 [Zakim]
yvesr_ should now be muted
15:09:59 [ericP]
sandro, do you know the foo to make sure the Stata doors are unlocked?
15:10:09 [ericP]
if not, i'll dig into it
15:10:22 [sandro]
please do, eric.
15:10:36 [pfps]
guus: agenda for F2F2 is on the wiki, need to make sure that some open time remains
15:10:53 [pfps]
guus: no need to change more right now
15:10:54 [cmatheus]
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15:11:15 [pfps]
TOPIC: Turtle in HTML
15:11:36 [pfps]
guus: see message from Gavin
15:11:57 [pfps]
gavinc: document needs to be brought up before HTML task force
15:12:13 [pfps]
s/HTML/HTML data/
15:13:04 [pfps]
ACTION gavinc: liase with HTML data task force to bring up Turtle in HTML document, etc.
15:13:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-92 - Liase with HTML data task force to bring up Turtle in HTML document, etc. [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-10-05].
15:13:52 [pfps]
TOPIC: Liaison with Provenance WG
15:14:11 [pfps]
guus: trust use case from Sandro
15:14:33 [davidwood]
q+ to ask what impact Turtle in HTML might have on RDF/JSON
15:14:34 [pfps]
guus: this appears to be a good, driving example
15:15:00 [pfps]
sandro: I can't speak for the PWG, even though I tried to provoke discussion of it there
15:15:30 [pfps]
sandro: Richard had some comments, notably a set of actions
15:16:03 [pfps]
guus: how about RDF to show example(s)?
15:16:23 [PatH]
this example seems very ambitious to me. ZDoes the Prov. grp consider it in their scope?
15:16:36 [Zakim]
15:16:44 [pfps]
sandro: one issue is when you need a "snapshot", e.g., "That's not right", but then the "that" is fixed
15:16:48 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P3 is me
15:16:48 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
15:17:10 [pfps]
sandro: Richard's proposal does not appear to speak to this
15:17:10 [cygri]
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15:18:18 [pfps]
guus: can we come up with some worked examples, showing potential RDF content?
15:18:34 [pfps]
sandro: I'll try to work this into the conversation with Richard
15:18:57 [sandro]
will post to
15:19:08 [pfps]
sandro: on the joint mailing list
15:19:52 [pfps]
guus: can something be done on this at the F2F?
15:20:06 [davidwood]
15:20:07 [pfps]
guus: we need to prepare something on this for F2F
15:20:30 [pfps]
sandro: can others do other examples?
15:20:52 [pfps]
guus: how about responding to the first example with potential solutions?
15:21:44 [sandro]
15:22:14 [pfps]
the above link is the relevant page for this WG to edit on provenance
15:22:23 [pfps]
guus: volunteers to do something?
15:22:58 [pfps]
gavinc: there is an example - i'll work on it
15:23:36 [yvesr_]
just got a nice use-case from Denni V - I asked him to write it up
15:23:47 [yvesr_]
about data wikis
15:23:59 [PatH]
whatever you decide, it only works if everyone does it.
15:24:19 [gavinc]
15:24:40 [sandro]
sandro: maybe simplest solution is all script/turtle elements are the default graph, unless they have id tags. This gives you a dataset serialization format (although only when the graph ids have the same base)
15:24:51 [pfps]
guus: please come up with interesting suggestions for proposals
15:25:04 [Zakim]
15:25:22 [sandro]
15:25:41 [Guus]
Jan Wielemaker
15:25:43 [Zakim]
15:25:50 [AndyS]
(implicit) base URIs considered harmful.
15:25:52 [Guus]
will ask him to look at examples
15:25:54 [pfps]
guus: i'll ask Jan Wielemaker to contribute
15:26:08 [davidwood]
15:26:45 [PatH]
"My favorite quadstore", a contemporary love story.
15:26:54 [gavinc]
15:27:02 [pfps]
guus: provenance will be a main topic at the F2F
15:27:55 [pfps]
gavinc: work on serialization of all this
15:28:32 [pfps]
gavinc: looking at what it would take to standarize something like TRIG or n-QUADS and how it could be compatible with Turtle
15:29:11 [pfps]
gavinc: proposal from me (GRAPH keyword); another like TRIG (see strawman page)
15:29:47 [pfps]
topic: Status RDF Dataset proposal
15:30:25 [pfps]
gavinc: problem with TRIG is that it isn't n-quads (because TRIG has to have all the graph in one spot)
15:30:36 [Zakim]
15:30:40 [pfps]
Strawman proposal Richard:
15:30:48 [ericP]
q+ to say the semantics might be easier if each graph simply added to the "database" so repeats simply append
15:31:14 [pfps]
Sandro: I don't like stateful syntaxes
15:31:52 [sandro]
15:32:28 [pfps]
ericP: Turtle already has state - in [], prefixes, etc., so we wouldn't be too much worse
15:32:35 [ericP]
<G1> { <G2> { <s> <p> <o> } }
15:32:40 [Guus]
15:32:47 [Guus]
ack eripP
15:32:53 [ericP]
<G1> {
15:32:58 [Guus]
ack aricP
15:33:02 [AndyS]
Turtle is only concat as whole files. (bNode labels excepted) is that enough?
15:33:03 [ericP]
<G2> { <s> <p> <o> }
15:33:05 [ericP]
15:33:15 [Zakim]
15:33:28 [sandro]
sandro: so good practice might be to start every turtle doc with "@graph . #go back to the default graph" if you think there might be concats.
15:33:29 [pfps]
ericP: some of this can be addressed by fiddling with embedding
15:33:46 [Guus]
ack ericP
15:33:46 [Zakim]
ericP, you wanted to say the semantics might be easier if each graph simply added to the "database" so repeats simply append
15:34:06 [pfps]
ericP: concatenation has some negative consequences
15:35:01 [pfps]
ericP: line-orientation also runs counter to concatenability
15:35:20 [LeeF]
We repeat the same graph ID a fair amount
15:35:30 [LeeF]
(in our TriG documents)
15:35:33 [LeeF]
And it's additive
15:35:38 [pfps]
AndyS: the (?) implementation of TRIG actually allows graph id repetition
15:36:13 [pfps]
gavinc: but the semantics may not be best
15:36:34 [sandro]
= vs +=
15:36:36 [pfps]
sandro: N3 has an implicit "=", so concatentation isn't the intended meaning
15:36:48 [pfps]
ericP: which version of N3
15:37:01 [ericP]
15:37:16 [pfps]
sandro: both
15:38:15 [sandro]
sandro: for this week, I'm inclined to go with @graph, since it's more clear to me what it means.
15:38:21 [ericP]
with the curly braces approach, we have a short way to write the grammar:
15:38:22 [ericP]
[1] trigDoc ::= ( directive | trigGraph )*
15:38:22 [ericP]
[2] trigGraph ::= IRIref "="? "{" turtleDoc" "}" "."?
15:38:37 [ericP]
and lean on the turtle spec
15:38:52 [pfps]
sandro: @graph form - semantics??
15:39:20 [gavinc]
@graph . #go back to the default graph
15:39:22 [pfps]
gavinc: not complete
15:39:32 [sandro]
sandro: when you hit the end of the turtle file, do you know exactly which triples are in each named graph?
15:40:10 [pfps]
guus: any relationship to documents
15:41:09 [pfps]
15:41:26 [ericP]
q+ to say that i fiddled with making trig lean on Turtle:
15:41:43 [pfps]
sandro: dataset = gbox, gsnap is different
15:42:08 [pfps]
gavinc: need something that shows complete graph contents
15:42:44 [pfps]
sandro: yes
15:42:51 [sandro]
sandro: maybe = syntax will be clearer these are gsnaps
15:43:09 [sandro]
(uh oh - phone problems - may drop off without warning.)
15:43:22 [pfps]
ericP: i fiddled with making trig lean on Turtle:
15:43:35 [AndyS]
Why not make Trig simply +Turtle (unnamed {} optional) +NQuads (outside {})
15:44:34 [pfps]
sandro: how about splitting the difference?
15:44:43 [pfps]
AndyS: the strawman is more line oriented
15:45:02 [ericP]
15:45:08 [pfps]
AndyS: this helps with relationship to n-quads
15:45:22 [Zakim]
15:46:37 [sandro]
[....] is nesting, yeah.
15:46:43 [pfps]
gavinc: trig introduces nesting to turtle, which doesn't have much
15:47:18 [yvesr_]
although only one degree of nesting (in trig)
15:47:28 [Zakim]
15:47:59 [pfps]
TOPIC: Status RDF Dataset proposal
15:48:09 [pfps]
Strawman proposal Richard:
15:48:33 [pfps]
guus: as Richard is not here, let's move on
15:48:44 [pfps]
guus: ISSUE-12 language-tagged literals
15:48:58 [pfps]
guus: Results of poll so far:
15:49:42 [pfps]
guus: the proposals with only a few "no" votes are 1 and 2d
15:49:56 [pfps]
guus: the other proposals are very likely to be problematic
15:50:41 [pfps]
guus: option 2d has fewer prefer not votes, so it appears to be a more-liked solution
15:51:12 [AZ]
+1 to go on with 2d
15:51:17 [pfps]
guus: shall we spend *more* time discussing this, or should we just try for 2d
15:51:20 [gavinc]
+1 to go with 2d
15:51:24 [LeeF]
I'm happy with 2d
15:51:37 [pchampin]
+1 to go on with 2d
15:51:40 [yvesr_]
15:52:08 [ericP]
Arnaud, did you say that the current RDF spec says that language tags are normalized to lower case?
15:52:47 [pfps]
davidwood: should we spend some time looking at cleaning up various uses of string literals
15:53:05 [gavinc]
ericP, yes
15:53:29 [pfps]
guus: spending scarce F2F time may not be the best way
15:54:07 [pfps]
guus: can we put forward a proposal (next week?) in preparation for a final decision at the F2F?
15:54:13 [ericP]
gavinc, wasnt' that why we gave up on the datatype approach?
15:54:18 [pfps]
davidwood: OK
15:54:27 [ericP]
oh well, i'm not going to push anything
15:54:51 [pfps]
guus: i'll propose a resolution for next week (but maybe the initial proposer would be better)
15:55:20 [AndyS]
ericP - yes - sec 6.5 of "concepts"
15:55:40 [pfps]
sandro: we need to try to make a final resolution - no backsliding!
15:56:05 [pfps]
15:56:41 [pfps]
ACTION guus: propose a resolution for next week on language-tagged-literals
15:56:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-93 - Propose a resolution for next week on language-tagged-literals [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-10-05].
15:57:01 [pfps]
guus: adjourned
15:57:07 [Zakim]
15:57:08 [yvesr_]
15:57:08 [Zakim]
15:57:10 [Zakim]
15:57:10 [AZ]
15:57:11 [Zakim]
15:57:11 [Zakim]
15:57:11 [Zakim]
15:57:13 [Zakim]
15:57:13 [Zakim]
15:57:14 [Zakim]
15:57:14 [zwu2]
15:57:16 [Zakim]
15:57:17 [Zakim]
15:57:20 [Zakim]
15:57:24 [Zakim]
15:57:28 [Zakim]
15:57:34 [Zakim]
15:57:36 [Zakim]
15:58:31 [pfps]
rrsagent, please set logs world-visible
15:58:40 [pfps]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:58:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate pfps
15:58:51 [AlexHall]
AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
15:59:16 [pfps]
rrsagent, please set minutes world-visible
15:59:16 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please set minutes world-visible', pfps. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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16:08:17 [Zakim]
16:08:19 [Zakim]
SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
16:08:20 [Zakim]
Attendees were +, +1.443.212.aacc, Arnaud, +1.707.861.aadd, Peter_Patel-Schneider, MacTed, gavinc, AlexHall, davidwood, Scott_Bauer, Guus, PatH, AZ, yvesr_,
16:08:22 [Zakim]
... +1.781.899.aaff, Sandro, pchampin, +1.650.265.aagg, zwu2, EricP, +1.603.897.aahh, Souri, AndyS, LeeF
16:08:48 [pfps]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:08:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate pfps
16:09:14 [gavinc]
Those aren't are minutes system btw ;)
16:10:26 [gavinc]
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