IRC log of webevents on 2011-09-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:59:43 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webevents
14:59:43 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/27-webevents-irc
14:59:49 [ssharma2]
ssharma2 has joined #webevents
14:59:49 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make log Public
14:59:59 [ArtB]
ScribeNick: ArtB
14:59:59 [ArtB]
Scribe: Art
14:59:59 [ArtB]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0082.html
14:59:59 [ArtB]
Date: 27 September 2011
14:59:59 [ArtB]
Chair: Art
14:59:59 [ArtB]
Meeting: Web Events WG Voice Conference
15:00:19 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:00:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/27-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
15:00:33 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.653.aaaa
15:00:40 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make log Public
15:00:56 [ted_]
zakim, who is here?
15:00:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Mozilla], +1.408.653.aaaa
15:01:02 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ssharma2, RRSAgent, Zakim, ArtB, smaug, shepazu, mbrubeck, scottmg, ted_, trackbot
15:01:06 [ted_]
zakim, [Mozilla] is Ted_Mielczarek
15:01:12 [Zakim]
+Ted_Mielczarek; got it
15:01:22 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.792.aabb
15:01:27 [mbrubeck]
Zakim, aabb is me
15:01:40 [Zakim]
+mbrubeck; got it
15:01:41 [Zakim]
+ +1.781.993.aacc
15:01:41 [ArtB]
zakim, who is here?
15:01:53 [ArtB]
zakim, aacc is Art_Barstow
15:01:56 [Zakim]
+??P34
15:01:58 [ted_]
zakim: nick ted_ is Ted_Mielczarek
15:01:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ted_Mielczarek, +1.408.653.aaaa, mbrubeck, +1.781.993.aacc, ??P34
15:02:02 [Cathy]
Cathy has joined #webevents
15:02:05 [smaug]
Zakim, ??P34 is Olli_Pettay
15:02:14 [Cathy]
Present+ Cathy_Chan
15:02:15 [Zakim]
+Art_Barstow; got it
15:02:25 [ssharma2]
aaaa is ne
15:02:26 [ArtB]
Regrets: Dzung_Tran, Sangwhan_Moon
15:02:28 [smaug]
Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
15:02:31 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ssharma2, RRSAgent, Zakim, ArtB, smaug, shepazu, mbrubeck, scottmg, ted_, trackbot
15:02:37 [Zakim]
+Olli_Pettay; got it
15:02:51 [Zakim]
ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
15:03:21 [ssharma2]
Suman Sharma
15:03:45 [ArtB]
Present: Art_Barstow, Cathy_Chan, Matt_Brubeck, Ted_Mielczarek, Olli_Pettay, Suman_Sharma, Doug_Schepers
15:04:05 [ArtB]
Topic: Tweak Agenda
15:04:11 [ArtB]
AB: I submitted a draft agenda on September 26 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0082.html. Any change requests? I think it makes sense to combine Issue-21 and Issue-22 as one topic. We can talk about charter update during AoB.
15:04:29 [mbrubeck]
Zakim, aaaa is Suman_Sharma
15:04:29 [Zakim]
+Suman_Sharma; got it
15:04:38 [mbrubeck]
Zakim, nick ssharma2 is Suman_Sharma
15:04:38 [Zakim]
ok, mbrubeck, I now associate ssharma2 with Suman_Sharma
15:04:45 [mbrubeck]
Zakim, mbrubeck is really Matt_Brubeck
15:04:45 [Zakim]
+Matt_Brubeck; got it
15:04:53 [ArtB]
AB: any change requests for the agenda?
15:04:53 [mbrubeck]
Zakim, nick mbrubeck is Matt_Brubeck
15:04:53 [Zakim]
ok, mbrubeck, I now associate you with Matt_Brubeck
15:04:54 [ArtB]
[None]
15:05:01 [ArtB]
Topic: Announcements
15:05:11 [ArtB]
AB: reminder our f2f meeting at the annual TPAC meeting week is November 1 and the registration deadline is October 14 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0079.html .
15:05:34 [ArtB]
AB: if we do meet that day - and at the moment it is not clear if we will need to meet - it will only be in the morning (09:00-12:00 SFO time zone) and we will have a voice conference bridge for remote attendees.
15:05:45 [Zakim]
+Doug_Schepers
15:06:50 [ArtB]
AB: there is no requirement to come to the f2f meeting
15:07:06 [ArtB]
AB: we have Suman joining us from Intel
15:07:22 [ArtB]
SS: I work for Intel
15:07:43 [ArtB]
… my group is interested in home related standards
15:07:56 [ArtB]
… I attend other standards meeting
15:08:06 [ArtB]
… f.ex. Khronos
15:08:18 [ArtB]
DS: welcome; nice to have you on board
15:08:28 [ArtB]
… it would be good to have a Khronos connection
15:08:36 [ArtB]
Suman: I will definitely help as needed
15:08:53 [ArtB]
AB: are you in same group as Tran?
15:09:00 [ArtB]
Suman: no, he is in PC group
15:09:15 [ArtB]
AB: welcome to the group!
15:09:32 [ArtB]
… I have an action related to following up with Khronos so I'll contact you about that
15:09:49 [ArtB]
AB: any other announcements for today?
15:10:01 [ArtB]
DS: I published a new draft of the charter
15:10:07 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/charter/2011/Overview.html
15:10:12 [ArtB]
… that includes Mouse Lock and Gamepad
15:10:25 [ArtB]
AB: we will take that during AoB. Thanks!
15:10:42 [ArtB]
Topic: Touch Events v1 LCWD TE
15:10:50 [ArtB]
AB: reminder that October 11 is the comment deadline for the TE v1 LCWD http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-touch-events-20110913/. We are doing a good job of addressing comments as they come in (i.e. not waiting until after the comment deadline).
15:11:16 [ArtB]
AB: one administrivia issue is the LC Comment tracking document. I propose using a wiki http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0058.html . Any objections to that?
15:11:36 [ArtB]
DS: why not use tracker?
15:11:43 [ArtB]
AB: I find wiki easier
15:11:45 [ArtB]
DS: OK
15:12:04 [ArtB]
AB: I don't object to using Tracker
15:12:20 [ArtB]
… but if we agree to use a wiki I'll take an action to create it and seed it
15:12:28 [ArtB]
AB: any objections to using a wiki?
15:12:37 [ArtB]
[None]
15:12:55 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow create a wiki to track comments for the TE v1 LCWD
15:12:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-76 - Create a wiki to track comments for the TE v1 LCWD [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-10-04].
15:13:08 [ArtB]
AB: Issue-19: Align initTouchEvent parameters with Webkit; any feedback from Webkit community? http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/19
15:13:33 [ArtB]
AB: I note Laszlo isn't here today
15:13:53 [ArtB]
… Does anyone know if there has been any related discussion by the Webkit community?
15:14:11 [ArtB]
[Silence]
15:14:20 [ArtB]
AB: we will continue this next meeting ...
15:14:33 [ArtB]
Topic: ISSUE-23: Add a DOM4-style constructor to create and initialize TouchEvent objects
15:14:41 [ArtB]
AB: Issue-23 is a result of comments from Anne http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/23 .
15:14:50 [ArtB]
AB: we talked about this last week and agreed then to keep initTouchEvent method in v1 http://www.w3.org/2011/09/20-webevents-minutes.html#item03. Since then, Matt and Anne had some followups http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0077.html
15:14:55 [shepazu]
agend+ IE10 Touch support https://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/09/20/touch-input-for-ie10-and-metro-style-apps.aspx
15:15:07 [shepazu]
agenda+ IE10 Touch support https://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/09/20/touch-input-for-ie10-and-metro-style-apps.aspx
15:15:38 [ArtB]
AB: so where are we with this?
15:15:53 [ArtB]
MB: Anne thinks there is no good reason to include initTouchEvent in v1
15:15:58 [ArtB]
… I tend to agree with him
15:16:19 [ArtB]
… I know Doug and Olli want to keep it
15:16:22 [shepazu]
q+
15:16:28 [ArtB]
… I think we others to reply to Anne
15:16:44 [ArtB]
… I didn't need it for my tests
15:17:01 [ArtB]
DS: Matt, are your tests manual?
15:17:18 [ArtB]
… or automatic
15:17:22 [ArtB]
MB: they are manual
15:17:43 [ArtB]
DS: previous feedback is that we want to move to automatic tests if possible
15:18:06 [mbrubeck]
I think even if we do write automated tests, they will be very limited in what they can test.
15:18:18 [ArtB]
DS: is there an analog in existing impls?
15:18:19 [ArtB]
MB: no
15:18:44 [ArtB]
DS: does WK have initTouchEvent today?
15:18:48 [ArtB]
MB: yes, it does
15:19:03 [ArtB]
… although WK's interface is different then the LCWD
15:19:15 [ArtB]
… it includes some additional params
15:19:31 [ArtB]
DS: and you don't think they will change their behavior?
15:19:46 [ArtB]
MB: we are still waiting for feedback from the WK community
15:19:57 [ArtB]
DS: I understand the approach
15:20:27 [ArtB]
… but I also am concerned their is a widely implemented replacement, I have reservations about removing it
15:20:36 [ArtB]
… I don't want to stand in the way
15:21:12 [ArtB]
AB: would this mean TE v1 spec would have a dependency on DOM4?
15:21:17 [ArtB]
DS: not necessarily
15:21:38 [ArtB]
… we could just define initializer/constructor that exists in DOM4
15:21:52 [ArtB]
… because DOM4 isn't likely to be done for a couple of years
15:22:04 [ArtB]
… and if DOM4 then changes, we can make a revision
15:22:22 [ArtB]
… I think future specs will match the more general behavior
15:22:39 [ArtB]
… It would mean we need to go back to LC, I think
15:22:47 [ArtB]
… Do you agree Matt?
15:23:05 [ArtB]
MB: it would significantly lengthen the time to get v1 to REC
15:23:50 [ArtB]
… We want to move fwd with a constructor we need for testing and will then deprecate it
15:23:59 [ArtB]
DS: I think it can be used for other purposes
15:24:19 [ArtB]
MB: it has been in WK since 2007 but I have seen no code in the wild that uses it
15:24:39 [ArtB]
… If someone has some data shows it is being used, I'd like to see it
15:24:49 [ArtB]
… ATM, only Gecko follows the spec
15:24:56 [ArtB]
DS: does anyone else have an opinion?
15:25:14 [smaug]
here we have a test using initTouchEvent :p http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/events/test/test_bug648573.html?force=1#60
15:25:28 [ArtB]
MB: if we want to take v1 fwd to match existing impls
15:26:33 [ArtB]
[ Scribe missed some stuff so we pause while Matt enters his comments in IRC … ]
15:27:11 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:27:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/27-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
15:27:22 [mbrubeck]
then we have two options: specify initTouchEvent as implemented in WebKit (with WebKit-only gesture parameters, etc.), or leave it out of v1.
15:27:40 [mbrubeck]
If we are willing to wait longer on making v1 a Recommendation, then we have more options.
15:28:22 [ArtB]
DS: it would mean we would need to back to LC (if the function is removed)
15:28:31 [ArtB]
… we kinda' knew that
15:28:39 [ArtB]
… as we talked about it before
15:28:49 [ArtB]
… The 2nd LC would only be 3 weeks
15:29:03 [ArtB]
… I think we need a discussion on the list
15:29:23 [ArtB]
… Some people may object to us not having a constructor at all
15:29:31 [ArtB]
… We don't want to keep bouncing back and forth
15:29:44 [ArtB]
AB: I agree we need more discussion on the list
15:30:16 [ArtB]
… do we need a new thread? or can we use the thread with Anne?
15:30:29 [ArtB]
DS: we need to be clear about our proposal
15:30:42 [ArtB]
… so we get a sense if there will be any objections
15:30:51 [ArtB]
… We need to be clear on why we want to remove it
15:31:03 [ArtB]
… and the implications of doing so
15:31:51 [ArtB]
AB: would be good if someone could start a thread about this
15:32:03 [ArtB]
… Are there any volunteers?
15:32:21 [ArtB]
MB: I can respond on the ongoing thread
15:32:36 [ArtB]
… I know Olli may have some feedback
15:32:41 [ArtB]
… As well as others
15:32:48 [ArtB]
OP: we need something for testing
15:33:14 [ArtB]
MB: another question is how imp is it to finalize v1 as a REC as soon as we can?
15:33:39 [ArtB]
… if we are willing to take longer, we aren't as constrained by existing impls
15:33:48 [ArtB]
DS: I'd like to go REC as soon as we can
15:33:55 [ArtB]
MB: why is that Doug?
15:34:11 [ArtB]
DS: the patent commitments don't start until a spec reaches REC
15:34:27 [ArtB]
… and that gives implementers more "confidence" re the patent risks
15:34:43 [ArtB]
… but we also understand some implementers don't care about patent issues
15:35:03 [ArtB]
… Some members want specs to proceed as chartered
15:35:16 [ArtB]
… It would show we can make progress on something
15:35:30 [ArtB]
… which is good for setting expectations
15:35:42 [ArtB]
MB: ok; got it
15:36:12 [ArtB]
AB: as a wrap up for today, Matt agreed to respond on the list
15:36:21 [ArtB]
… is there anything else for this today?
15:36:36 [ArtB]
… I think this is the most critical issue that has been so far
15:36:50 [ArtB]
… So we need to think it through and get feedback
15:37:01 [ArtB]
DS: removing eliminates two issues
15:37:20 [ArtB]
… the Issue Laszlo has with his WK patch
15:37:58 [ArtB]
… and might stop us from having to do the deprecation of initTouchEvent
15:38:24 [ArtB]
… Certainly for v2 we need a more solid constructor function
15:38:36 [ArtB]
… And doing the removal would get us to REC faster
15:38:48 [ArtB]
Topic: Issue-21 and Issue 22
15:38:57 [ArtB]
AB: Issue 21 is "Description of touchcancel event is missing some details" and it originates from one of Cathy's LC comments http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/21 . Matt and Cathy have related Action-72 and Action-73 http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/72 ; http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/73
15:39:17 [ArtB]
AB: Issue 22 is "Does an element have to also register for touchstart event in order to receive touchend/touchmove events" http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/22 and Cathy has related Action-72 http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/72
15:39:36 [ArtB]
AB: yesterday Cathy submitted proposed text to address both of these issues http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JulSep/0083.html.
15:39:53 [ArtB]
AB: the proposal is to change text in 4 sections.
15:40:38 [ArtB]
MB: I haven't looked at the proposal yet
15:41:14 [ArtB]
CC: there are two issues
15:41:25 [ArtB]
… touchcancel description is missing some details
15:41:58 [ArtB]
… to address this, I suggest a change to some existing text
15:42:33 [ArtB]
… and also add a new paragraph in section 5.7 (touchcancel event)
15:43:39 [ArtB]
… I also propose changing touchend and touchmove text to clarify
15:43:52 [ArtB]
… (those are the 2nd and 3rd changes in my email)
15:44:13 [ArtB]
AB: any comments?
15:44:52 [ArtB]
… please review Cathy's proposed changes and send comments to the list
15:45:14 [ArtB]
MB: at a first glance, they look good to me. Thanks Cathy!
15:45:19 [ArtB]
DS: yes, thanks Cathy
15:45:52 [ArtB]
AB: do we want to set a deadline for comments and if there are no comments, we consider them acceptable?
15:45:58 [ArtB]
DS: yes, that's fine by me
15:46:50 [ArtB]
AB: I propose then that if no one raises any issues by 12:00 Boston time on Friday Sept 30, we consider the changes acceptable
15:46:59 [ArtB]
… any objections to that?
15:47:04 [ArtB]
[ None ]
15:47:36 [ArtB]
AB: Cathy agreed to make the changes if that's OK.
15:47:44 [ArtB]
… Is that agreeable?
15:47:47 [ArtB]
DS: fine with me
15:47:52 [ArtB]
MB: ok with me
15:48:14 [ArtB]
Topic: Testing Touch Events
15:48:39 [ArtB]
AB: Olli reported on the list he hasn't done action-74 so we'll skip this topic today
15:48:48 [ArtB]
Topic: Any Other Business (AOB)
15:48:55 [ArtB]
AB: re adding Gamepad API and Mouse Lock API to our charter, Doug has a Draft charter that includes these two APIs http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/charter/2011/Overview.html.
15:49:16 [ArtB]
AB: thanks Doug!
15:49:28 [ArtB]
… Did you make any changes to section 1.?
15:50:28 [ArtB]
DS: yes, to add Lock and Gamepad, I needed to create some subsections
15:50:43 [ArtB]
… so the Touch Interfaces is now its own section (1.1)
15:51:05 [ArtB]
… I added the new specs to the Deliverables section
15:51:42 [ArtB]
AB: any comments?
15:51:49 [ArtB]
AB: this looks great
15:52:03 [scottmg]
I had a quick read, looks good to me
15:52:14 [ArtB]
… the Intentional Events is missing from the Deliverables
15:52:41 [ArtB]
DS: until we get something from P&F WG, not sure we have anything to add
15:52:50 [ArtB]
… I'll need to talk to them
15:53:25 [ArtB]
AB: this is an interesting question
15:53:38 [ArtB]
… don't think we need to block re Intentional Events
15:54:13 [ArtB]
DS: I'll add it to deliverables
15:54:48 [ArtB]
Suman: re games, what about depth camera?
15:54:57 [ArtB]
DS: that is out of scope
15:55:32 [ArtB]
… we need to be careful about adding specs in areas where there are patent concerns
15:55:48 [ArtB]
… since that can prevent some Members from joining this WG
15:56:02 [ArtB]
… And I would like to get more Members involved
15:56:09 [ArtB]
Suman: ok; thanks for that information
15:57:13 [ArtB]
… A lot of the important players are small and not W3C Members
15:58:17 [ArtB]
DS: other than IP concerns, I think we should also try to keep a relatively narrow focus
15:58:34 [ArtB]
Ted: yes, I agree with keeping the scope relatively narrow
15:59:04 [ArtB]
DS: we also don't want to add deliverables without editors and a draft spec
15:59:25 [ArtB]
… we can also recharter at some other time e.g. 6 months from now
15:59:55 [ArtB]
… Let's talk about depth offline
16:01:50 [ArtB]
AB: I'll respond and ask people to send comments
16:02:02 [ArtB]
… what is next?
16:02:13 [ArtB]
DS: I need to get some internal W3C review
16:03:02 [ArtB]
… I can try to expedite the review
16:03:22 [ArtB]
AB: I would like the AC review of the charter to start before the AC meeting on Nov 1
16:04:23 [ArtB]
DS: I'll work toward getting an AC review as soon as I can
16:05:30 [ArtB]
AB: anything else on the charter?
16:05:49 [ArtB]
DS: Microsoft has implemented some touch intentional events
16:05:54 [smaug]
https://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/09/20/touch-input-for-ie10-and-metro-style-apps.aspx
16:06:07 [shepazu]
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/ie/hh272903.aspx#_DOMTouch
16:06:10 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:06:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/27-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:06:30 [ArtB]
DS: it's unfortunate they didn't participate in our Touch Events spec
16:06:42 [ArtB]
… I think there will be some interop issues
16:06:59 [ArtB]
… It's simple but perhaps too simple
16:07:05 [ArtB]
… They did prefix their events
16:07:11 [ArtB]
… Perhaps later we can converge
16:07:40 [ArtB]
AB: I think that gives us an action to followup with Microsoft
16:07:51 [ArtB]
AB: next call is October 4, if there is sufficient topics.
16:08:04 [ArtB]
AB: meeting adjourned
16:08:11 [Zakim]
-Suman_Sharma
16:08:12 [Zakim]
-Olli_Pettay
16:08:13 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
16:08:18 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:08:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/27-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:08:23 [Zakim]
-Art_Barstow
16:08:27 [Zakim]
-Ted_Mielczarek
16:08:48 [Zakim]
-Matt_Brubeck
16:08:50 [Zakim]
RWC_WebEven()11:00AM has ended
16:08:51 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.408.653.aaaa, Ted_Mielczarek, +1.206.792.aabb, +1.781.993.aacc, Art_Barstow, Olli_Pettay, Suman_Sharma, Matt_Brubeck, Doug_Schepers
16:09:35 [ArtB]
zakim, bye
16:09:35 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #webevents
16:16:28 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, bye
16:16:28 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/27-webevents-actions.rdf :
16:16:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow create a wiki to track comments for the TE v1 LCWD [1]
16:16:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/27-webevents-irc#T15-12-55