16:02:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
16:02:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/26-prov-irc
16:02:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:02:54 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
16:02:55 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
16:02:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
16:02:56 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:02:57 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
16:02:58 <trackbot> Date: 26 September 2011
16:03:06 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 
16:03:06 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, Luc
16:03:15 <tlebo> wiki for this meeting: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology_Meeting_2011-09-26
16:03:24 <stain> http://titanpad.com/wN4lUHpAcv
16:04:33 <Luc> Zakim, this will be SW_(OWL)
16:04:33 <Zakim> ok, Luc, I see SW_(OWL)12:00PM already started
16:04:54 <tlebo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/2b514f651c03/ontology/examples/ontology-extensions/crime-file/diagrams/2011-09-26-tlebo/crime.owl.png
16:04:55 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 
16:05:03 <Luc> Chair: Satya
16:05:40 <Zakim> +??P0
16:06:34 <khalidbelhajjame> khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
16:07:26 <Luc> what is provenanceContainer in entity? I don't understand the notation used.
16:07:59 <stain> file:///home/stain/stuff/src/provenance-wg/prov/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html#provenancecontainer I guess
16:08:14 <stain> that is a subclass
16:08:48 <Paolo_> q+
16:09:16 <Zakim> +??P3
16:09:44 <tlebo> TODO: break all visual abbreviations - show rdfs:subClassOf directly.
16:09:54 <stain> Luc does not like that a ProvenanceContainer is a subclass of Entity
16:10:05 <tlebo> TODO: ensure that the ProvenanceContainer is no longer an Entity. (Tim)
16:10:17 <Luc> it's not that Luc doesn't like. It does not match the data model.
16:10:43 <stain> In PROV-DM, an entity expression is a representation of an identifiable characterized thing.
16:10:48 <stain> so is the provcontainer not one of those?
16:11:25 <Luc> no
16:11:25 <tlebo> luc: top level classes: ProvenanceContainer, Account, Entity, ProcessExecution
16:11:55 <stain> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#ProvenanceContainer
16:12:00 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#ProvenanceContainer
16:12:34 <Paolo_> q?
16:12:38 <Paolo_> q-
16:12:44 <satya> This is PROV-ISSUE-66
16:12:50 <tlebo> paolo: we are not "directly" asserting provenance of ProvenanceContainer
16:14:23 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
16:14:35 <khalidbelhajjame> I think we should just stick to the data model as much as possible
16:15:42 <dgarijo> @khalid: yes, of course. But if the model is designed for asserting provenance, then it should provide the mechanisms to assert provenance about provenance records too!
16:16:10 <khalidbelhajjame> +q
16:16:27 <Luc> satya, there is a type error!
16:17:30 <tlebo> (the objective of the diagram was to illustrate how a third party could extend PROV - does anyone have feedback on how well/poorly this is conveyed?)
16:17:49 <dgarijo> could you provide the link to the diagram, please? I joined late :(
16:18:01 <stain> tlebo: I think it's good, but I wonder if we could show extension by subproperties or subclass
16:18:02 <tlebo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/2b514f651c03/ontology/examples/ontology-extensions/crime-file/diagrams/2011-09-26-tlebo/crime.owl.png
16:18:20 <stain> just adding new attributes to an prov:Entity is merely how entity is to be used anyway..?
16:18:45 <tlebo> @stian:  news:Entity subclass prov:Entity , THEN assert the domains on news:Entity ?
16:18:58 <Luc> you can take multiple perspective on a provenance container: it's a curated set of assertions, it's a set of triples in a triple store, it's a 'platonic' set of triples, it's something in a database.
16:18:58 <stain> so Journalist subclass of Agent, or Publishing subclass of ProcessExecution might be interesting. But then you are very close to the danger of touching on roles..
16:19:08 <Luc> Each of them can be modelled by an entity expression.
16:19:47 <Luc> An apple is represented by an entity expression, which involves selecting some attributes
16:20:10 <khalidbelhajjame> -q
16:21:51 <stain> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#expression-Account says
16:21:54 <stain> Note: Currently, the non-terminal asserter is defined as URI. We may want the asserter to be an agent instead, and therefore use PROV-DM to express the provenance of PROV-DM assertions. The editors seek inputs on how to resolve this issue.
16:22:03 <stain> is this what we've briefly touched on?
16:23:40 <Luc> yes stain
16:23:51 <dgarijo> I have to agree with Satya
16:23:58 <dgarijo> I don't see the difference either.
16:25:09 <dgarijo> if a prov container can be set of statements, and we are able to refer to them and assert triples using them as source, then it has a identifier.
16:26:47 <Paolo_> the corollary of what Luc is saying, i.e., viewing a provenance container as a "thing in the world", is that you don't need to make  ProvenanceContainer a subclass of Entity in order to do "meta-provenance"
16:27:21 <stain> so Luc's point is that there (could be) other attributes you need to specify, like the location the provenance container is stored in, or description of its content, etc - many entities
16:28:02 <dgarijo> +q
16:28:09 <khalidbelhajjame> En entity is a characterization of a thing, provenance container is not necessarily a characterization of a thing.
16:29:07 <stain> mm.. so there's nothing saying a ProvContainer *is not* an entity, but it would probably not be a good entity on its own because there are many ways to describe such meta-provenance
16:29:43 <khalidbelhajjame> A provContainer can be a characterization, but not necessarily one.
16:30:33 <satya> q+
16:30:43 <satya> ack daniel
16:31:13 <dgarijo> -q
16:31:18 <dgarijo> ack satya
16:32:42 <tlebo> q+
16:32:45 <dgarijo> ok, now it is clear for me. So basically Prov container and Entity are not disjoint, but not necessarily the former subclass of the latter.
16:33:16 <stain> and t might be misleading to say it is always an entity, because it hints that you *should* do meta-provenance in only a single way
16:34:08 <dgarijo> :)
16:34:26 <tlebo> provenanceContainer: is a list of accounts, namespace definitions, and a collection of provenance assertions.
16:36:39 <stain> so provenanceContainer() in the model is rdf:RDF  (or equivalent headers) in RDF
16:36:55 <tlebo> JSON needs ProvenanceContainer, while RDF/OWL does not need it "because it comes for free".
16:37:05 <dgarijo> @tim: but it depends on the way you implement it: if you select named graphs, then your provenance container could be the named graphs. 
16:37:20 <stain> mm.. and then you can do RDF->model->JSON->model->RDF and somewhat at least don't mess up namespaces and stuff
16:41:14 <tlebo> TODO: class diagram (Khalid)
16:41:25 <Luc> how is this group proposing to model accounts?
16:41:31 <khalidbelhajjame> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html
16:41:33 <satya> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html#specialization-of-provenance-ontology-classes
16:42:11 <dgarijo> @Luc: should they be a subclass of provenance container?
16:42:30 <stain> @Luc I think we are still thinking of that as named graph / separate OWL/RDF resources per account   - due to how identifiers depends on the account in the abstract model
16:43:11 <dgarijo> since they are a collection of provenance assertions too.
16:43:13 <Luc> yes, probably name graph would  be the way ... but then this does not show in OWL?
16:43:26 <tlebo> stian: show the other subclasses of the extension.
16:43:39 <tlebo> (TODO: Tim show this)
16:43:40 <khalidbelhajjame> @Luc, yes I agree, we should be as explicit as possible
16:45:28 <dgarijo> and what about having account as subclass of prov container? I think it could be fine.
16:46:30 <Luc> @daniel, an account would then inherit prov container's properties ... but accounts have no namespace, and no index of accounts
16:46:49 <Paolo_> @Daniel yes that would be reasonable -- something we discussed in the model
16:47:11 <tlebo> the news crime file example: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/2b514f651c03/ontology/examples/ontology-extensions/crime-file/instances/example-1/crime.ttl.vertical.png
16:47:41 <stain> I would suggest to do role example with a process execution with 2 or more uses or 2 or more generations
16:47:45 <stain> so that you see why you would want a role
16:47:51 <stain> or 2 or more agents
16:48:21 <stain> I have some in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/ontology/examples/ontology-extensions/workflow/prov2.ttl
16:48:49 <Luc> i will have to go, sorry!
16:49:00 <dgarijo> bye!
16:49:54 <satya> ok bye Daniel
16:49:55 <satya> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html#entity
16:50:06 <stain> those notes don't match the exxmple
16:50:23 <dgarijo> no, I wasn't leaving, just saying bye to Luc :)
16:50:36 <Zakim> - +44.238.059.aabb
16:52:18 <satya> oh ok :)
16:52:41 <satya> bye Luc
16:59:00 <tlebo> +1
16:59:35 <tlebo> satya: we let the conceptual model become the logical model.
17:04:10 <Zakim> -??P0
17:05:29 <Zakim> +??P0
17:09:34 <jcheney> Got to go.
17:09:38 <Zakim> -??P27
17:09:48 <dgarijo> see you, jcheney.
17:12:13 <Paolo_> guys I really have to go
17:12:22 <dgarijo> see you, paolo!
17:12:40 <Paolo_> bye
17:13:16 <Zakim> -??P28
17:17:50 <tlebo> rrsagent, set log public rrsagent, draft minutes trackbot, end telcon
17:17:50 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'set log public rrsagent, draft minutes trackbot, end telcon', tlebo.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:18:01 <tlebo> rrsagent, set log public
17:18:09 <tlebo> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:18:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/26-prov-minutes.html tlebo
17:18:18 <tlebo> trackbot, end telcon
17:18:18 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:18:18 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Satya_Sahoo, +1.315.330.aaaa, stain, +44.238.059.aabb
17:18:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:18:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/26-prov-minutes.html trackbot
17:18:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:18:20 <RRSAgent> I see no action items