IRC log of dnt on 2011-09-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:49:07 [RRSAgent]

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14:49:07 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/16-dnt-irc

14:49:09 [aleecia]

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14:49:12 [tlr]

rrsagent, make log public

14:49:21 [tlr]

Meeting: Tracking Protection Group Open Call

14:49:24 [tlr]

Chair: Aleecia

14:51:05 [Zakim]

Team_(dnt)15:00Z has now started

14:51:12 [Zakim]

+aleecia

14:52:26 [Zakim]

+ +1.949.202.aaaa

14:53:15 [aleecia]

DW, visual aid

14:57:35 [aleecia]

If you are on IRC but not the call bridge, please dial in

14:58:01 [aleecia]

+1.617.761.6200, code TRACK (87225)

14:58:14 [Zakim]

+ +1.770.392.aabb

14:58:33 [aleecia]

at&t

14:59:13 [Zakim]

+ +1.425.269.aacc

14:59:35 [aleecia]

microsoft

14:59:41 [Zakim]

+ +1.412.268.aadd

14:59:52 [dsinger_]

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14:59:58 [mischat_]

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14:59:59 [Zakim]

+dsinger

15:00:09 [Zakim]

+ +54351420aaee

15:00:12 [Zakim]

+Thomas

15:00:36 [aleecia]

543 intel

15:00:50 [tlr]

zakim, aaee is intel

15:00:50 [Zakim]

+intel; got it

15:01:00 [tlr]

zakim, aacc is microsoft

15:01:00 [Zakim]

+microsoft; got it

15:01:04 [Zakim]

+ +1.303.438.aaff

15:01:12 [tlr]

zakim, aabb is att

15:01:12 [Zakim]

+ +44.776.855.aagg

15:01:12 [Zakim]

+att; got it

15:01:20 [tlr]

zakim, aaff is trueffect

15:01:20 [Zakim]

+trueffect; got it

15:01:20 [dsinger_]

zakim, who is here?

15:01:21 [Zakim]

On the phone I see aleecia, +1.949.202.aaaa, att, microsoft, +1.412.268.aadd, dsinger, intel, Thomas, trueffect, +44.776.855.aagg

15:01:23 [Zakim]

On IRC I see mischat_, dsinger_, aleecia, RRSAgent, Zakim, tlr, TruEffect, mischat, schunter1, hober

15:01:31 [tlr]

zakim, aagg is Vodafone

15:01:31 [Zakim]

+Vodafone; got it

15:01:55 [tlr]

zakim, mute me

15:01:55 [Zakim]

sorry, tlr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

15:01:55 [dsinger_]

Who is in 949 and 412 areas?

15:01:58 [tlr]

zakim, I am thomas

15:01:58 [Zakim]

ok, tlr, I now associate you with Thomas

15:02:02 [tlr]

zakim, mute me

15:02:02 [Zakim]

Thomas should now be muted

15:02:07 [tlr]

aleecia: hi

15:02:14 [Zakim]

+shayman

15:02:20 [Zakim]

+??P18

15:02:21 [tlr]

… there'll be another co-chair pending paperwork

15:02:35 [mischat_]

zakim, ??P18 is me

15:02:35 [Zakim]

+mischat_; got it

15:02:44 [tlr]

… about me

15:02:58 [tlr]

… starting part-time post-doc this fall

15:03:04 [tlr]

… part-time senior privacy researcher at Mozilla

15:03:15 [Bruce]

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15:03:22 [tlr]

… there'll be another Mozilla representative so I can focus on chairing

15:03:30 [tlr]

… role is to help create consensus decisions

15:03:34 [tlr]

ack thomas

15:04:02 [Yang]

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15:04:09 [mischat]

tlr: Thomas oversees relevant work at the w3

15:04:15 [Louise]

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15:04:53 [dsinger_]

Q+

15:05:25 [dsinger_]

Ack dsinger

15:06:03 [mischat]

aleecia: people with name starting later in the alphabet, please introduce yourself

15:07:38 [tlr]

aleecia: lots of attention, exciting times

15:08:19 [tlr]

… http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/charter.html

15:08:21 [tlr]

… acknowledge massively aggressive schedule

15:08:26 [tlr]

… there's a lot going on in the ecosystem around us

15:08:32 [tlr]

… and a lot of that is going quickly

15:08:43 [tlr]

… also, note users and DNT implementers

15:08:54 [tlr]

… don't want for early adopters to have to change implementation

15:09:02 [tlr]

… also, users rightly perplexed by what browsers are doing

15:09:07 [tlr]

… want to do excellent work, not just fast work

15:09:15 [tlr]

… there will be times when it's important to slow down

15:09:18 [tlr]

… balancing act there

15:09:26 [tlr]

… compressed time line means more work more quickly

15:09:49 [tlr]

… this work is worth the extra effort

15:10:00 [tlr]

… immediate time line: FPWD end of the month

15:10:19 [mischat]

http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/charter.html#deliverables

15:10:36 [tlr]

… (deliverable structure)

15:10:42 [tlr]

… let me highlight a few things we'll not do

15:10:50 [tlr]

… definitions part — don't deal with huge issues like "what is privacy"

15:11:02 [tlr]

… not looking into philosophy, nail down terms needed for there set of the documents

15:11:07 [tlr]

… "what does it mean to be a first party"

15:11:28 [Zakim]

+ +358.504.87aahh

15:11:52 [tlr]

… expect for the process to be iterative

15:11:58 [tlr]

… also, don't expect to have consensus on everything

15:12:08 [tlr]

… document what has consensus, and what doesn't

15:12:19 [tlr]

… end month with understanding of scope and direction

15:12:22 [Francisco]

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15:12:23 [tlr]

… what can you do to help?

15:12:27 [tlr]

… input documents!

15:12:32 [tlr]

… some work here is dating back to 2007

15:12:41 [tlr]

http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/

15:13:00 [tlr]

… please send note to mailing list with proposals for input documents

15:13:09 [tlr]

… please be on the lookout for any great input documents

15:13:14 [tlr]

… also, more importantly — think about use cases

15:14:01 [tlr]

… the Princeton humm suggested tracking definition + exceptions

15:14:14 [tlr]

… please send use cases to mailing list that permit somewhat more detailed discussion

15:14:19 [tlr]

… e.g., not just "security"

15:14:39 [tlr]

... also, please think about *your* success criteria

15:14:54 [tlr]

… about the Cambridge meeting — hotels look bad right now, sorry

15:14:59 [tlr]

… two very full days ahead of us with long breaks

15:15:03 [tlr]

… self-hosted dinner on the 21st

15:15:26 [tlr]

… goal is to do things jointly, collaboratively

15:15:38 [dwferrell]

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15:16:32 [tlr]

… we look for spirited back-and-forth, but will step in if discussions should go personal

15:16:42 [tlr]

… most frequently asked question: what to expect for other f2f meetings

15:16:49 [tlr]

… 3-4 meetings; more frequently early on

15:16:58 [tlr]

… second meeting in Santa Clara, CA

15:16:58 [tlr]

q+

15:17:14 [tlr]

… third meeting in Europe, perhaps Belgium — after the holidays

15:17:22 [tlr]

… we'll add fourth meeting if and only if necessary

15:17:29 [tlr]

… travel budgets are known serious issue

15:17:30 [dsinger_]

Q+

15:17:38 [tlr]

… if there's a meeting you just cannot attend, we'll understand

15:17:45 [tlr]

… also, know several orgs are working through paperwork

15:18:26 [tlr]

… MIT sign-up is open to those interested

15:18:35 [tlr]

… please register ASAP — today, ideally

15:18:46 [aleecia]

q?

15:18:59 [Bruce]

Hello - can you outline the best type of person, i.e. technical background, to attend these session.

15:19:21 [aleecia]

oct 31, nov 1 for next meeting

15:19:41 [mischat]

tlr: additional information, meeting room booking for TPAC has come through, TPAC registration is open, please reg very soon ...

15:19:47 [tlr]

http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/#Finalized

15:19:59 [aleecia]

q?

15:19:59 [dsinger_]

Ack dsinger

15:20:01 [tlr]

ack dsin

15:20:17 [tlr]

david: web and TV IG meeting — can't get to Cambridge

15:21:16 [tlr]

dsinger: dates early, please please please

15:21:28 [Francisco]

q?

15:21:29 [aleecia]

q?

15:21:35 [tlr]

aleecia: sorry, acknowledged, TPAC 31 October, 1 November

15:21:37 [tlr]

q-

15:22:19 [tlr]

kenny(ATT): wonder — where could I find discussion, references about premise and motivation to do the work?

15:22:30 [tlr]

… appreciate there's lots of legal and pseudo-legal discussions around policy issues

15:22:35 [tlr]

… opt-in/opt-out and so on

15:22:47 [tlr]

… set of foundational assumptions?

15:23:20 [tlr]

aleecia: to address one piece first — opt-in/opt-out is a straight-out political question. out of scope.

15:23:31 [tlr]

… that could vary by browser company, by country — whole variety of factors

15:23:38 [tlr]

… that's a discussion that will continue in other fora

15:23:47 [tlr]

… secondly, in terms of some of the foundational work

15:23:53 [tlr]

… input documents that we have put on the WG home page

15:23:57 [tlr]

… are documents we're looking at right now

15:23:58 [Zakim]

+ +1.408.536.aaii

15:24:09 [tlr]

… if there are others we should look at, we'd be delighted to have input

15:24:17 [tlr]

… if you have additional input, please provide it

15:24:24 [mischat]

http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/#input-documents

15:24:26 [tlr]

… in some cases, will compare documents to see where there are points of agreements

15:24:31 [mischat]

^^ input documents

15:24:37 [tlr]

… in some cases, look at issues etc

15:24:49 [tlr]

… in terms of philosophy for do not track

15:24:53 [MeMe]

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15:25:02 [tlr]

… expect that if we have 30 people in the room, will have 40 opinions

15:25:07 [tlr]

… different backgrounds and different views

15:25:14 [tlr]

… don't think we'll have all of that resolved

15:25:26 [tlr]

… get to consensus on what technology looks like, and what people need to do

15:26:16 [tlr]

kenny: there must be a consensus about technical requirement assumption

15:26:23 [tlr]

aleecia: consensus of the group

15:26:28 [tlr]

kenny: technical requirements?

15:26:38 [tlr]

aleecia: unusually highly watched, highly political environment

15:26:46 [tlr]

… many of the recommendations from W3C are not on that level

15:26:51 [tlr]

… not unprecedented

15:27:28 [tlr]

… w3c more on the technical, than the political side

15:27:37 [tlr]

… technical decisions / policy decisions influence each other

15:27:53 [tlr]

… note that people from FTC, regulators internationally are paying attention

15:28:00 [tlr]

… likely to act as observers

15:28:19 [tlr]

hannes: my interpretation is that there is one purely technical piece of work

15:28:21 [tlr]

… the header

15:28:24 [Francisco]

zakim, q+

15:28:24 [Zakim]

I see Francisco on the speaker queue

15:28:35 [aleecia]

q?

15:28:44 [tlr]

… there is also a policy piece that goes beyond the technical work

15:28:53 [tlr]

… in the mozilla submission, that related to what the semantics of the header are

15:28:57 [mischat]

This specification defines the meaning of a Do Not Track preference and sets out practices for Web sites to comply with this preference." sounds like what people are talking about now

15:29:01 [tlr]

… same meaning associated to that across the meaning

15:29:10 [tlr]

… that's the interesting part of the whole conversation, but also the difficult one

15:29:17 [tlr]

aleecia: that's the bulk of the work, indeed

15:29:26 [Zakim]

-trueffect

15:29:52 [tlr]

… to take an example — if there was a decision that DNT does not apply to first parties

15:30:01 [tlr]

… then that has policy implications, also business implications

15:30:18 [tlr]

… those are the things where the technical decisions would implicate the policy effects

15:30:54 [tlr]

q?

15:31:08 [tlr]

DWFarrel: opt-in / opt-out in scope for later?

15:31:11 [tlr]

aleecia: out of scope

15:31:20 [tlr]

francisco: not involved in a w3c group before

15:31:24 [dsinger_]

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15:31:34 [tlr]

… won't be able to attend the first two meetings; I'm in Argentina

15:31:45 [tlr]

… what level of work can be done off-line?

15:31:57 [tlr]

aleecia: expect first draft to be highly face-to-face

15:32:06 [tlr]

… for subsequent drafts, more on mailing list

15:32:17 [tlr]

… use face-to-face to work through issues that have been surfaced on mailing list

15:32:20 [Zakim]

-microsoft

15:32:32 [tlr]

… if you're not able to make any of the WG meetings in person, then probably good choice to find somebody else in your organization

15:33:18 [tlr]

francisco: dial-in possible?

15:33:24 [tlr]

aleecia: for first meeting, working to set up phone

15:33:39 [tlr]

… fear the acoustics of the room aren't speaker phone friendly

15:33:45 [tlr]

… also, IRC

15:33:58 [tlr]

… doing best we can to accommodate, but phone bridge might not work as well as we'd like

15:33:59 [aleecia]

q?

15:34:03 [tlr]

ack franci

15:34:31 [tlr]

aleecia: meeting adjourned

15:35:06 [Zakim]

- +1.408.536.aaii

15:35:09 [dsinger_]

Bye

15:35:10 [Zakim]

-Thomas

15:35:11 [Zakim]

- +358.504.87aahh

15:35:11 [Zakim]

-att

15:35:12 [Zakim]

-mischat_

15:35:12 [Zakim]

-intel

15:35:12 [tlr]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:35:12 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/16-dnt-minutes.html tlr

15:35:13 [Zakim]

-shayman

15:35:14 [Zakim]

-Vodafone

15:35:16 [Zakim]

-dsinger

15:35:17 [Zakim]

-aleecia

15:35:19 [Zakim]

- +1.949.202.aaaa

15:35:21 [Zakim]

- +1.412.268.aadd

15:35:23 [Zakim]

Team_(dnt)15:00Z has ended

15:35:25 [Zakim]

Attendees were aleecia, +1.949.202.aaaa, +1.770.392.aabb, +1.425.269.aacc, +1.412.268.aadd, dsinger, +54351420aaee, Thomas, intel, microsoft, +1.303.438.aaff, +44.776.855.aagg,

15:35:28 [Zakim]

... att, trueffect, Vodafone, shayman, mischat_, +358.504.87aahh, +1.408.536.aaii

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