IRC log of rdf-wg on 2011-09-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

01:07:49 [MacTed]: MacTed has joined #rdf-wg
06:39:26 [tomayac]: tomayac has joined #rdf-wg
06:57:37 [mischat]: mischat has joined #rdf-wg
07:38:12 [danbri]: danbri has joined #rdf-wg
07:49:17 [AndyS]: AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
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08:17:40 [danbri]: danbri has joined #rdf-wg
08:46:11 [mischat]: mischat has joined #rdf-wg
08:49:10 [danbri_]: danbri_ has joined #rdf-wg
08:53:16 [mischat]: any head with making http://www.w3.org/2011/08/31-rdf-wg-irc public would be great :)
08:53:30 [mischat]: i will bug swh when i see him, he might know ...
08:57:44 [SteveH]: SteveH has joined #rdf-wg
09:32:56 [danbri]: danbri has joined #rdf-wg
12:19:51 [MacTed]: mischat - this is the page that should definitely be public -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-08-31
12:19:51 [MacTed]: you get there thru the editable version of the IRC log -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Chatlog_2011-08-31
12:19:51 [MacTed]: by clicking the "preview nicely formatted version" link in the page head
12:19:51 [MacTed]: they all *appear* to be public, having tested with another browser where I'm not logged in
12:24:03 [mischat_]: mischat_ has joined #rdf-wg
12:44:36 [SteveH_]: SteveH_ has joined #rdf-wg
13:01:13 [LeeF]: LeeF has joined #rdf-wg
13:10:06 [Scott_Bauer]: Scott_Bauer has joined #rdf-wg
13:11:58 [Scott_Bauer]: Scott_Bauer has left #rdf-wg
13:17:24 [Scott_Bauer]: Scott_Bauer has joined #rdf-wg
13:25:53 [ivan]: ivan has joined #rdf-wg
13:48:01 [MacTed]: MacTed has joined #rdf-wg
14:45:21 [Guus]: Guus has joined #rdf-wg
14:47:06 [mischat]: mischat has joined #rdf-wg
14:51:05 [ivan]: trackbot, start telcon
14:51:07 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
14:51:07 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:51:08 [AZ]: AZ has joined #rdf-wg
14:51:09 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 73394
14:51:09 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:51:10 [trackbot]: Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:51:10 [trackbot]: Date: 07 September 2011
14:52:14 [yvesr]: anyone using ekiga here? i keep getting 'this passcode is not valid'
14:53:34 [Zakim]: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
14:53:40 [Zakim]: +??P7
14:53:41 [Zakim]: + +20598aaaa
14:53:53 [yvesr]: Zakim, P7 is me
14:53:53 [Zakim]: sorry, yvesr, I do not recognize a party named 'P7'
14:53:56 [yvesr]: Zakim, ??P7 is me
14:53:56 [Zakim]: +yvesr; got it
14:54:18 [yvesr]: found - DTMF needs to be set as RFC2833
14:55:15 [Guus]: zakim, +20598aaaa is me
14:55:15 [Zakim]: +Guus; got it
14:55:19 [AndyS]: AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
14:56:01 [Guus]: zakim, mute me
14:56:02 [Zakim]: Guus should now be muted
14:56:14 [Zakim]: + +1.707.861.aabb
14:56:22 [gavinc]: Zakim, aabb is me
14:56:22 [Zakim]: +gavinc; got it
14:56:27 [Zakim]: +Tony
14:56:43 [Scott_Bauer]: Zakim, Tony is me
14:56:43 [Zakim]: +Scott_Bauer; got it
14:57:05 [Zakim]: +davidwood
14:57:32 [ivan]: zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:57:32 [Zakim]: ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:57:34 [Zakim]: +Ivan
14:57:37 [mbrunati]: mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:26 [Guus]: zakim, unmute me
14:58:26 [Zakim]: Guus should no longer be muted
14:58:38 [yvesr]: Zakim, who is talking?
14:58:49 [Zakim]: yvesr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (24%)
14:59:11 [Zakim]: + +33.9.54.07.aacc
14:59:48 [zwu2]: zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:57 [AZ]: zakim, +33.9.54.07.aacc is me
14:59:57 [Zakim]: +AZ; got it
15:00:07 [pchampin]: pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:12 [pchampin]: pchampin has left #rdf-wg
15:00:15 [Guus]: zhe, can you scribe?
15:00:23 [Zakim]: +Sandro
15:00:26 [pchampin]: pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:27 [Guus]: you're on the list :-)
15:00:49 [Zakim]: +??P13
15:00:56 [SteveH]: Zakim, ??P13 is [Garlik]
15:00:56 [Zakim]: +[Garlik]; got it
15:01:03 [SteveH]: Zakim, [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
15:01:04 [Zakim]: +SteveH, mischat; got it
15:01:09 [mischat_]: mischat_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:19 [Zakim]: +??P15
15:01:24 [Zakim]: + +1.617.324.aadd
15:01:46 [ericP]: Zakim, aadd is me
15:01:46 [Zakim]: +ericP; got it
15:01:51 [Zakim]: + +1.443.212.aaee
15:02:02 [AlexHall]: AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:03 [Zakim]: +LeeF
15:02:06 [Guus]: zakim, who is here?
15:02:06 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Guus, yvesr, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, davidwood, Ivan, AZ, Sandro, [Garlik], pchampin, ericP, +1.443.212.aaee, LeeF
15:02:08 [Zakim]: [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
15:02:09 [Zakim]: On IRC I see AlexHall, mischat_, pchampin, zwu2, mbrunati, AZ, Zakim, mischat, Guus, MacTed, ivan, Scott_Bauer, LeeF, SteveH, danbri, RRSAgent, gavinc, trackbot, davidwood, manu,
15:02:12 [Zakim]: ... manu1, sandro, yvesr, NickH, ericP
15:02:41 [AndyS]: AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:51 [tomayac]: tomayac has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:02 [Zakim]: +Thomas
15:03:08 [zwu2]: Guus, I am not feeling well today, can I scribe next week?
15:03:17 [zwu2]: zakim, code?
15:03:17 [Zakim]: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
15:04:06 [Zakim]: + +1.650.265.aaff
15:04:15 [Zakim]: +OpenLink_Software
15:04:23 [zwu2]: zakim, +1.650.265.aaff is me
15:04:23 [Zakim]: +zwu2; got it
15:04:30 [AlexHall]: scribe: alexhall
15:04:36 [zwu2]: Thanks Alex!
15:04:38 [MacTed]: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:04:38 [Zakim]: +MacTed; got it
15:04:40 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute me
15:04:40 [Zakim]: MacTed should now be muted
15:04:58 [AlexHall]: topic: Admin
15:05:05 [Zakim]: +??P29
15:05:10 [AndyS]: zakim, ??P29 is me
15:05:10 [Zakim]: +AndyS; got it
15:05:18 [Zakim]: +??P30
15:05:20 [AlexHall]: guus: thanks to mischa for fixing minutes, apologies for their lateness
15:05:33 [tomayac]: +1 to accept
15:05:34 [mbrunati]: zakim, +??P30 is me
15:05:34 [Zakim]: sorry, mbrunati, I do not recognize a party named '+??P30'
15:05:35 [AlexHall]: ... correct link to minutes is in agenda
15:05:39 [mischat]: these are the minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-08-31
15:05:48 [mbrunati]: zakim, ??P30 is me
15:05:48 [Zakim]: +mbrunati; got it
15:05:51 [AlexHall]: PROPOSED: to accept the minutes from 31 Aug telecon
15:06:16 [AlexHall]: RESOLVED: to accept the minutes from 31 Aug telecon
15:06:41 [AlexHall]: guus: no pending action items
15:06:53 [AlexHall]: ... open items, danbri is not here
15:07:25 [AlexHall]: sandro: started conversation, when it's considered stable we can proceed with registering it
15:07:49 [AlexHall]: ... not sure what stable means, from w3c perspective could mean final call
15:08:06 [AlexHall]: ... could probably proceed before then, probably doesn't matter
15:08:16 [AlexHall]: guus: would prefer to proceed now, hearing no objections
15:08:30 [AlexHall]: sandro: would like resolution from wg
15:08:47 [AlexHall]: ... prepare template, put to vote for a resolution
15:08:58 [AlexHall]: ... does anybody have reason to think it's not stable?
15:09:28 [sandro]: ACTION: sandro to draft well-known URI template and propose WG resolution that it is "stable" enough for IETF.
15:09:29 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-82 - Draft well-known URI template and propose WG resolution that it is "stable" enough for IETF. [on Sandro Hawke - due 2011-09-14].
15:09:40 [sandro]: close action-52
15:09:40 [trackbot]: ACTION-52 Start conversation on reserving our well-known string (genid) closed
15:09:41 [AlexHall]: guus: next item, review PA's comments on SPARQL update protocol
15:09:51 [AlexHall]: ... think it's done
15:10:00 [danbri]: Hi. I'm in IRC, but I'm not dialing into telecons until I get my Skype dialout fixed (was a payments system problem; allgedly it'll work from tommorrow)
15:10:19 [mischat]: no i don't think it was discussed either
15:10:33 [AlexHall]: ... was not discussed last week, and PA is not here so we need to keep it open
15:11:26 [AlexHall]: guus: need to change the date on action 73, don't need to track it every week
15:11:34 [sandro]: action-73?
15:11:34 [trackbot]: ACTION-73 -- Fabien Gandon to implement http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-08-03#resolution_2 -- due 2011-08-24 -- OPEN
15:11:34 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/73
15:12:10 [AlexHall]: ... action 77 is still open, propose to discuss as part of today's RDF datasets agenda item
15:13:16 [AlexHall]: guus: next telecon is 14 Sep, back on normal schedule
15:13:18 [Souri]: Souri has joined #RDF-WG
15:13:40 [AlexHall]: guus: need to agree on policy for who is responsible for responding to public comments
15:13:43 [Zakim]: + +1.603.897.aagg
15:13:46 [gavinc]: Timely too :\
15:13:54 [Souri]: zakim, aagg is me
15:13:54 [Zakim]: +Souri; got it
15:13:56 [AlexHall]: ... traditionally editor is responsible for responding
15:14:09 [AlexHall]: ... at the very least, each comment must be politely acknowledged
15:14:38 [ivan]: q+
15:15:59 [ivan]: ack ivan
15:16:03 [AlexHall]: ... suggestion is to think of how each comment impacts the text, point out specific passages or ask for specific changes
15:16:34 [AlexHall]: ivan: number of commenters were unhappy with current policy of different mailing lists for comments vs. working group
15:17:02 [AlexHall]: ... personally don't have a problem with this, but should we change it?
15:17:17 [AlexHall]: guus: administratively, it must be done this way.
15:17:28 [AlexHall]: ivan: rdfa working group has only one mailing list
15:17:44 [AlexHall]: ... supposing it's doable, do we want to make that change?
15:18:09 [AlexHall]: andy: how does rdfa formally track comments if they're all on the same list?
15:18:24 [AlexHall]: ... one advantage of separate lists is that it's more convenient for tracking comments
15:18:44 [davidwood]: +1 to Andy. The separate comments list seems to make it easier to track comments.
15:18:45 [AlexHall]: ivan: rdfa wg manages by having a very devoted chair who spends a lot of time
15:19:08 [Zakim]: -ericP
15:19:14 [AlexHall]: ... understand the advantage
15:19:15 [sandro]: sandro has changed the topic to: RDF-WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ -- 2011-09-07 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.07
15:19:26 [Zakim]: +ericP
15:19:52 [AlexHall]: andy: can't recall exact setup of sparql lists, but wg list is for more conversation and chitchat while public list is for formal comments
15:20:10 [AlexHall]: ivan: happy to leave it as it is as long as there are no strong objections from wg.
15:20:43 [ivan]: s/ivan/guus/
15:20:54 [AlexHall]: topic: FTF planning
15:21:00 [mischat]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2
15:21:23 [AlexHall]: guus: 8 or 9 at Boston location, several more remotely at bbc
15:21:37 [AlexHall]: ... please add your name to one of these lists
15:21:50 [gavinc]: Yay for a 2nd Europen F2F ;)
15:22:16 [AlexHall]: ... BBC might have more attendees than Boston, might affect scheduling issues (earlier start time in Boston)
15:22:59 [gavinc]: ... ... ... Uh. Right, that sucks
15:23:04 [AlexHall]: sandro: looks like more people at BBC location, might make more sense to make it there instead
15:23:14 [NickH]: haha, if there are morepeople in London, then Boston is the 'second site'?
15:23:34 [yvesr]: sandro, although we can't accomodate a lot more people at the bbc location (the room we have is relatively small)
15:23:34 [AlexHall]: david: can't personally make it to european location
15:23:56 [Scott_Bauer]: I've also made travel plans for
15:24:00 [Scott_Bauer]: Boston
15:24:32 [AlexHall]: andy: i know it's harder having a split site, but we get more people this way
15:24:36 [Zakim]: -ericP
15:24:46 [LeeF]: Echo the concerns about a two-site meeting without video
15:24:47 [Zakim]: +ericP
15:24:50 [AlexHall]: gavin: noticed that we don't seem to have video conferencing setup, is that correct?
15:25:04 [Zakim]: +??P20
15:25:11 [NickH]: zakim, ??P20 is me
15:25:11 [Zakim]: +NickH; got it
15:25:19 [AlexHall]: yves: that's correct, we don't currently have videoconf at BBC, can investigate
15:25:27 [AlexHall]: ... also, cannot accommodate many more people
15:25:53 [AlexHall]: guus: seems we will end up with a split meeting, need to come up with an agenda to accomodate both sides
15:25:53 [Zakim]: -LeeF
15:25:56 [LeeF]: oops
15:26:02 [LeeF]: i hung up, but intended to say that i'd be happy to do 7am
15:26:05 [LeeF]: "happy"
15:26:09 [AlexHall]: ... 5 hour time difference, is 8am start in Boston OK?
15:26:14 [FabGandon]: FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:26:36 [Zakim]: +LeeF
15:27:32 [AlexHall]: eric: we could possibly open the door early
15:28:24 [AlexHall]: guus: breakout groups early in UK, afternoon in US
15:28:52 [AlexHall]: ... common meeting in morning (US)/afternoon (UK)
15:29:14 [AlexHall]: david: might be hard to organize breakouts by geography instead of interest
15:29:39 [AlexHall]: ... could we overlap the breakouts?
15:30:25 [sandro]: So, I've just re-researved MIT's H.320/H.323 video conferencing room, hoping a matching BBC facility will be available.
15:30:27 [AlexHall]: yves: can keep the building open, only possible problem is that lunch is already arranged
15:31:08 [AlexHall]: guus: proposed schedule: UK breakouts 10am-noon, lunch noon-1pm, meeting 1pm-??
15:31:28 [AlexHall]: ... US meeting 8am-2pm, lunch, then breakouts
15:32:12 [AlexHall]: sandro: had previously released video conferencing room, will re-reserve
15:32:36 [AlexHall]: action: guus and david to come up with agenda which works for US and UK locatinos
15:32:37 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-83 - And david to come up with agenda which works for US and UK locatinos [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-09-14].
15:33:01 [sandro]: Hmmmm. Ekiga claims to support H.323, so yeah, people could do it on desktops.
15:33:26 [AlexHall]: guus: discussed in august what would be the main meeting objectives
15:34:16 [AlexHall]: ... making substantial progress on multi-graph issues is the major objective
15:34:27 [mischat]: does that include all of the graph terminology stuff ?
15:34:35 [AlexHall]: ... given that other issues are making reasonable progress
15:34:45 [Zakim]: +Thomas.a
15:35:08 [AlexHall]: ... yes, this includes the terminology, sandro is waiting for progress on multigraph before moving on with terminology
15:35:22 [AlexHall]: topic: Liason with Provenance WG
15:35:51 [AlexHall]: guus: in august we were in contact with Luc, one of the chairs of the provenance wg
15:36:08 [AlexHall]: ... trying to set up a common time
15:36:39 [AlexHall]: ... their telecon is the same as ours but on thursday
15:36:59 [Zakim]: -ericP
15:37:00 [AlexHall]: ... we will meet after their telecon on 15 Sep (at 12:15pm eastern)
15:37:09 [AlexHall]: ... who in this group can or will attend?
15:37:10 [Zakim]: +ericP
15:37:39 [AZ]: I want to attend
15:37:39 [ivan]: probably
15:38:04 [Scott_Bauer]: probably, need to rearrange a meeting.
15:38:11 [MacTed]: I plan to join
15:38:13 [AndyS]: Interested ... no specific issues ... want to understand deeply
15:38:17 [davidwood]: I will be there
15:38:19 [gavinc]: I plan to join
15:38:24 [sandro]: I'm inclined to attend.
15:38:25 [SteveH]: Would like to be there, but have clashes
15:38:51 [pchampin]: not sure yet, I'll have to check
15:38:55 [AlexHall]: ... 5 or 6 volunteers in IRC, would also like richard to attend
15:39:05 [mischat]: the provenance people only really seem to care about named graphs
15:39:27 [AlexHall]: action: guus to contact Richard to ask to attend provenance WG liason call
15:39:27 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-84 - Contact Richard to ask to attend provenance WG liason call [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-09-14].
15:39:54 [AlexHall]: action: guus to distribute agenda for provenance wg call
15:39:54 [Zakim]: -AZ
15:39:54 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-85 - Distribute agenda for provenance wg call [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-09-14].
15:40:50 [Zakim]: +AZ
15:41:01 [AlexHall]: topic: Status of RDF Dataset proposal
15:41:13 [mischat]: we used to have this page http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs re: Graph's TF
15:41:21 [AlexHall]: guus: there was discussion between PA and richard on dataset proposal
15:41:30 [AZ]: zakim, mute me
15:41:31 [Zakim]: AZ should now be muted
15:41:32 [AlexHall]: ... didn't seem to make its way into the wiki page
15:42:19 [Zakim]: -ericP
15:42:25 [gavinc]: zakim, mute me
15:42:25 [Zakim]: gavinc should now be muted
15:42:32 [Zakim]: +ericP
15:42:42 [AlexHall]: pchampin: have made progress on understanding each other's motivations and are slowly coming towards consensus
15:42:53 [AlexHall]: ... but have not arrived at agreement yet
15:43:30 [AlexHall]: guus: can't make progress on this today, will go back on agenda for next week
15:43:42 [ivan]: q+
15:43:44 [AlexHall]: topic: ISSUE-12 language-tagged literals
15:44:07 [AlexHall]: guus: message from pat on varieties of tagged literals
15:44:14 [AlexHall]: ... not much discussion on this yet
15:44:21 [mischat]: iirc Pat was asked asked last week to put together a review of the various proposals
15:44:32 [mischat]: s/asked//
15:44:40 [AlexHall]: ivan: questionnaire is not yet open because some questions about final wording
15:44:55 [AlexHall]: ... think it's mostly OK
15:45:14 [AlexHall]: ... this is a personal questionnaire, not a formal vote on behalf of the companies
15:45:21 [AlexHall]: ... also a public questionnaire
15:45:51 [AlexHall]: ... sandro made note right before the call that it's set up as a radio button form, meaning only one choice
15:46:10 [AlexHall]: ... other alternative is a more open-ended form
15:46:48 [AlexHall]: ... don't want to open it up too much or this could keep dragging on
15:47:10 [AlexHall]: guus: any preference from wg on whether poll should be single-choice or multi-select?
15:47:21 [AlexHall]: ???: personally prefer the preferences form, gives more nuance
15:47:31 [ivan]: s/???/Guus/
15:47:41 [Zakim]: -ericP
15:47:53 [Zakim]: +ericP
15:48:04 [AlexHall]: sandro: have a first choice and second choice and a bunch that i really don't like, no way to express that in current form
15:48:05 [ivan]: q+
15:48:27 [davidwood]: ack ivan
15:48:57 [AlexHall]: ivan: i proposed this poll last week, because without taking sides, all arguments have been extensively aired and we're going in circles now
15:49:31 [AlexHall]: ... try to get a clear view of whether there's a single solution that's obviously a winner, don't want this to drag on for months
15:50:29 [AndyS]: Why are we discussing the poll when the WG can't see the form?
15:51:10 [AlexHall]: david: lee asked sandro for more details on his mailing list comment, can we discuss now?
15:51:34 [ericP]: ivan, worth quickly opening it as an exhibit?
15:51:47 [sandro]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Sep/0019.html Pat's Email
15:51:50 [AlexHall]: sandro: poll is only visible to staff and chairs, same as pat's email but in radio button form
15:52:10 [AlexHall]: ... my comments are relevant to pat's email
15:53:19 [Zakim]: -ericP
15:53:20 [AlexHall]: sandro: of all the option 2 styles, seems that if I have "foo" with different tags then i have 2 literals with same lexical and datatypes
15:53:34 [Zakim]: +ericP
15:53:55 [AlexHall]: ... how do i tell the difference between these in a system that only supports RDF 1.0-style literals?
15:54:01 [pchampin]: @sandro: well, yes, but they differ by their LANG
15:54:46 [AlexHall]: sandro: lang appears in sparql, but it doesn't appear in a serialization or api
15:55:58 [AlexHall]: ... thought the goal of this was to simplify things by giving everything a datatype
15:56:27 [AlexHall]: pchampin: spirit of #2 proposals is that we still have 2 styles of literals: those with tag and those without
15:56:50 [AndyS]: q+ to note the concerns about 3* in the email discussions
15:56:53 [AlexHall]: ... most people didn't like idea of open-ended universe of language datatypes
15:57:07 [AlexHall]: sandro: what is the advantage of option 2?
15:58:07 [AlexHall]: pchampin: everything is given a datatype, but still has distinct lexical and language parts
15:58:35 [ericP]: so option 2 leaves us with two literal types?
15:58:40 [Zakim]: -ericP
15:58:43 [AlexHall]: sandro: seems a trivial change, you're just giving a little bit of extra information
15:58:50 [sandro]: sandro: I just don't see how Option 2 is an improvement over what we have now.
15:58:51 [Zakim]: +ericP
15:59:06 [AlexHall]: andy: concerns about giving URIs to language datatypes
15:59:22 [AlexHall]: ... doesn't play well with existing subtype behavior
15:59:36 [AlexHall]: ... discussed on the mailing list, but doesn't seem to be reflected in the poll.
16:00:05 [mischat]: zakim, who is making noise ?
16:00:16 [Zakim]: mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 21 (21%), Sandro (27%), pchampin (47%), Ivan (8%)
16:00:55 [sandro]: sandro: I understand language tags to not have a strict hierarchy, so we shouldn't use datatype hierarchy.
16:01:09 [AlexHall]: pchampin: subtypes in this context means value space of language datatype is subtype of tagged literals
16:01:50 [AndyS]: IIRC: rdf:Lang-en owl:sameAs ns:name => looses lang info :: must be fixed URIs -> special.
16:01:55 [pchampin]: s/subtype/subset/
16:02:25 [pchampin]: pchampin: rdf:TaggedLiteral value space would contain all the <txt, tag> pairs
16:02:31 [AlexHall]: sandro: sounds like you're saying these subtypes are implicit but can't be used directly
16:02:33 [pchampin]: ... but its lexical space would be empty
16:02:48 [AndyS]: What is DATATYPE("foo"@en) in 3* ?
16:02:50 [pchampin]: ... rdf:TaggedLiteral/fr would only contain the <txt, "fr"> pairs
16:03:05 [pchampin]: ... its lexical space would contain all the strings txt
16:03:23 [pchampin]: ... and its L2V would be txt -> <txt,"fr">
16:03:27 [AlexHall]: ivan: option 3 introduces lots of new datatypes to the picture, expect that inference engines would not like this
16:03:37 [pchampin]: ... Simiar to owl:real having values but no lexical space;
16:04:03 [pchampin]: ... xsd:decimal having a subset of owl:real, and a lexical space and L2V for that subset.
16:04:15 [Zakim]: -ericP
16:04:23 [Zakim]: +ericP
16:04:29 [AlexHall]: ivan: owl-rl e.g. would have problems with axiomatic triples because it needs a triple for each type it knows about
16:05:06 [pchampin]: q+ to talk about option 4
16:05:24 [gavinc]: zakim, unmute me
16:05:24 [Zakim]: gavinc should no longer be muted
16:05:50 [AlexHall]: andy: language tags in 1.1 will be treated specially no matter what, option 3 buries it in the URI, just moving where the special casing occurs
16:06:03 [AlexHall]: ... now you have to parse the URIs to extract the language tag information
16:06:05 [gavinc]: langmatches is going to be defined really really really funckily for option 3
16:06:33 [AlexHall]: sandro: people who care about language tags will always have to treat them specially, option 3 allows people who don't care about them to ignore them
16:07:10 [AlexHall]: andy: option 2 puts it in the syntax, not in the datatype
16:07:38 [SteveH]: I think sandro has a point
16:07:45 [AlexHall]: sandro: don't understand how the mechanism in option 2 is supposed to work, main basis for not liking that
16:08:25 [AlexHall]: ... i see options 3 and 4 simplifying application code for lots of people, not so for option 2
16:09:23 [Zakim]: -ericP
16:09:29 [gavinc]: really, the iri rdf:langTag-zh-cmn-a-bbb-a-ccc is an improvement? :\
16:09:37 [Zakim]: +ericP
16:09:51 [sandro]: guus: Am I right that option 2 has aestheic advantage, but not much of an advantage for implementors.
16:09:59 [AlexHall]: guus: have a feeling that the main advantage of option 2 is an aesthetic advantage, is that true?
16:10:24 [AlexHall]: andy: don't think any of them have a clear technical advantage, everything requires special handling of some sort
16:11:09 [AlexHall]: sandro: would like to eliminate branching of literal handling in apis
16:11:20 [FabGandon]: FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
16:12:06 [AlexHall]: gavin: datatype iris for moderately complex language tags are going to be a pain
16:12:53 [AlexHall]: ivan: need final decision on what form to make the poll
16:13:30 [zwu2]: Ivan, you worry about inference blow up, how many language tags do you think there will be?
16:13:36 [MacTed]: +1 example for each! a concrete thing will vary with each proposal ... show the variations?
16:14:02 [gavinc]: API (RDF Interfaces) in Python for Literal ;) https://github.com/norcalrdf/pymantic/blob/master/pymantic/primitives.py#L203
16:14:19 [sandro]: action: sandro to provide example for how code is simpler with language-tag options 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2.
16:14:19 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-86 - Provide example for how code is simpler with language-tag options 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2. [on Sandro Hawke - due 2011-09-14].
16:14:43 [AlexHall]: ivan: will need to change poll. is 2 weeks ok?
16:14:56 [zwu2]: thanks Alex!
16:14:56 [AlexHall]: guus: close poll night before telecon 2 weeks from now
16:15:02 [Zakim]: -Ivan
16:15:03 [Zakim]: -davidwood
16:15:04 [Zakim]: -NickH
16:15:05 [Zakim]: -MacTed
16:15:07 [Zakim]: -AZ
16:15:08 [Zakim]: -yvesr
16:15:09 [Zakim]: -[Garlik]
16:15:09 [Zakim]: -gavinc
16:15:10 [Zakim]: -Sandro
16:15:11 [Zakim]: -mbrunati
16:15:13 [Zakim]: -zwu2
16:15:15 [Zakim]: -pchampin
16:15:17 [Zakim]: -AndyS
16:15:19 [Zakim]: -Souri
16:15:25 [Zakim]: -ericP
16:15:30 [Zakim]: -Scott_Bauer
16:16:09 [Zakim]: -Guus
16:16:16 [Zakim]: -LeeF
16:16:21 [gavinc]: rrsagent, make records public
16:16:32 [gavinc]: avoid last weeks fun ;)
16:16:42 [AlexHall]: thanks gavin, was trying to look that up
16:16:55 [gavinc]: np
16:20:36 [AndyS]: AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
16:20:47 [Zakim]: -AlexHall
16:20:55 [AlexHall]: AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
17:15:30 [AndyS]: AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
17:33:19 [Zakim]: -Thomas
17:38:19 [Zakim]: disconnecting the lone participant, Thomas.a, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
17:38:21 [Zakim]: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
17:38:26 [Zakim]: Attendees were yvesr, Guus, +1.707.861.aabb, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, davidwood, Ivan, AZ, Sandro, SteveH, mischat, +1.617.324.aadd, pchampin, ericP, +1.443.212.aaee, LeeF, AlexHall,
17:38:29 [Zakim]: ... Thomas, zwu2, MacTed, AndyS, mbrunati, +1.603.897.aagg, Souri, NickH
17:50:40 [mischat]: mischat has joined #rdf-wg
18:24:30 [MacTed]: trackbot, end meeting
18:24:30 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
18:24:30 [Zakim]: sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
18:24:31 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:24:31 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/07-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
18:24:32 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
18:24:32 [RRSAgent]: I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/07-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
18:24:32 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: sandro to draft well-known URI template and propose WG resolution that it is "stable" enough for IETF. [1]
18:24:32 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/07-rdf-wg-irc#T15-09-28
18:24:32 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: guus and david to come up with agenda which works for US and UK locatinos [2]
18:24:32 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/07-rdf-wg-irc#T15-32-36
18:24:32 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: guus to contact Richard to ask to attend provenance WG liason call [3]
18:24:32 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/07-rdf-wg-irc#T15-39-27
18:24:32 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: guus to distribute agenda for provenance wg call [4]
18:24:32 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/07-rdf-wg-irc#T15-39-54
18:24:32 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: sandro to provide example for how code is simpler with language-tag options 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2. [5]
18:24:32 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/07-rdf-wg-irc#T16-14-19