IRC log of tagmem on 2011-09-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:03:27 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
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logging to
17:03:43 [timbl]
Zakim, call timbl-office
17:03:43 [Zakim]
ok, timbl; the call is being made
17:03:45 [Zakim]
17:03:48 [JeniT]
scribenick: JeniT
17:04:05 [JeniT]
Scribe: JeniT
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Meeting: W3C TAG Teleconference of 1 September 2011
17:05:02 [JeniT]
Chair: Noah Mendelsohn
17:05:25 [JeniT]
Date: 1 September 2011
17:05:55 [noah]
Regret: Dan, Henry and Larry
17:05:56 [JeniT]
17:06:00 [noah]
Regrets: Dan, Henry and Larry
17:08:17 [Norm]
17:08:54 [JeniT]
Noah: We may have a brief call next week, but probably not
17:08:57 [JeniT]
Topic: Approve minutes of prior meeting(s)
17:09:17 [noah]
17:09:26 [timbl]
(I can't do next week anyway.)
17:09:49 [JeniT]
RESOLUTION: Accepted minutes from
17:09:49 [noah]
RESOLUTION: Minutes of 11-august ( are approved
17:10:16 [JeniT]
Topic: Administrative items
17:10:53 [Norm]
Nice digs!
17:12:14 [noah]
17:12:19 [timbl]
[well, this will be in the presence of HT]
17:12:27 [JeniT]
noah: please sign up to scribe
17:12:51 [JeniT]
Topic: ISSUE-67 (HTML-XML-Divergence-67): HTML / XML Unification
17:13:32 [JeniT]
Norm: The task force has produced a report
17:13:48 [JeniT]
... it's been edited a few times, there's some new text from noah for an introduction
17:14:02 [JeniT]
... the main stumbling block is that we want to make it more publically visible
17:14:04 [noah]
17:14:06 [noah]
17:14:31 [timbl]
Draft TAG finding
17:14:33 [JeniT]
... we would like TAG's permission to clean it up and make it public as a Draft XXXX
17:14:40 [noah]
17:14:45 [JeniT]
... and respond to feedback
17:15:10 [timbl]
timbl has changed the topic to: (timbl)
17:15:49 [JeniT]
ashok: I would like to see some conclusions in the report
17:15:55 [JeniT]
... even if they were preliminary
17:16:06 [JeniT]
... in Section 2.5 on XML parsing
17:16:21 [timbl]
I see: 3 Conclusions TBD.
17:16:29 [JeniT]
... it mentions efforts to make it more forgiving, but they are not detailed
17:16:34 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.538.aaaa
17:16:37 [JeniT]
... I'd like to know what the thinking is and where we could go
17:16:48 [jar]
zakim, aaaa is jar
17:16:48 [Zakim]
+jar; got it
17:16:51 [JeniT]
Norm: those include XML5, which should be in the references
17:16:57 [noah]
Could write informally, indicating which conclusions look pretty firm, and which are still controversial/poorly understood
17:16:58 [JeniT]
... other people have done work in this space
17:17:04 [timbl]
Reference to Polyglot?
17:17:20 [JeniT]
... about the conclusions: I can put something in, but it depends on what the community thinks
17:17:37 [JeniT]
... the TF hasn't got any conclusions yet, except that these are ways of addressing the problems raised
17:18:04 [JeniT]
ashok: and on XML5, if you could extract some recommendations
17:18:24 [JeniT]
Norm: Anne's done a very good job, but I don't think anyone's looked at it with care
17:18:34 [JeniT]
... we'd need to spin up a WG to look at requirements
17:18:55 [JeniT]
timbl: there's a polyglot document, is there a reference to polyglot
17:18:59 [noah]
q+ to talk a bit more about xml5, scope and conclusions
17:19:06 [JeniT]
Norm: the polyglot doc is mentioned in the text in 2.1
17:19:08 [noah]
NW: Ooops, need to clean up references
17:19:16 [Zakim]
17:19:51 [JeniT]
timbl: one conclusion is that if you're publishing documents, then being conservative in what you produce involves using polyglot
17:20:04 [JeniT]
... there's another discussion about what W3C should publish in
17:20:12 [noah]
17:20:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.209.aabb
17:20:16 [JeniT]
... eg using polyglot as an example for the HTML and XML communities
17:20:24 [jar]
zakim, aabb is jar
17:20:24 [Zakim]
+jar; got it
17:20:34 [JeniT]
Norm: I don't think there are downsides in publishing documents that can be polyglot, in polyglot
17:21:23 [noah]
ack next
17:21:23 [JeniT]
... use an HTML5 parser if you're going to be parsing HTML, is a good conclusion
17:21:36 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to talk a bit more about xml5, scope and conclusions
17:21:46 [JeniT]
noah: it isn't clear to me how the current structure of the document relates to its scope
17:21:56 [JeniT]
... the original scope was to do more than use cases
17:22:15 [JeniT]
... it was to look at the overlap between the two stacks of HTML and XML
17:22:23 [JeniT]
... to avoid unnecessary duplication between the stacks
17:22:33 [JeniT]
... there was some attempt to do that but it was hard to get common ground
17:22:39 [JeniT]
... so use cases were a starting point
17:22:59 [JeniT]
... the problem statements include the resolution
17:23:26 [JeniT]
... in the draft, we need to talk about the scope of the task force
17:23:41 [JeniT]
... we need to bring out new technology directions and conclusions
17:23:55 [JeniT]
... is this saying that all we can do is use cases?
17:24:04 [JeniT]
... if so why? or is there something broader?
17:24:14 [JeniT]
Norm: I can attempt to draft something around that
17:24:31 [JeniT]
... personally, we tried to find common ground, and use cases helped to look at that
17:24:40 [JeniT]
... after looking at the use cases, there didn't seem to be any problems to solve
17:24:55 [JeniT]
noah: so the document should say that
17:25:16 [JeniT]
Norm: ok, this is good feedback
17:25:24 [JeniT]
... we'll address this in a new draft
17:25:31 [JeniT]
... get the TF to agree to it
17:25:35 [JeniT]
... then come back and see if that helps
17:25:45 [JeniT]
noah: is that practical?
17:26:14 [JeniT]
Norm: nothing new will happen before the F2F
17:26:59 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to ping Norm end of Sept. on revised HTML/XML report per discussion on 1 Sept 2011
17:27:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-591 - Ping Norm end of Sept. on revised HTML/XML report per discussion on 1 Sept 2011 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-09-08].
17:27:14 [noah]
ACTION-591 Due 2011-09-30
17:27:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-591 Ping Norm end of Sept. on revised HTML/XML report per discussion on 1 Sept 2011 due date now 2011-09-30
17:27:28 [Zakim]
17:27:29 [Zakim]
17:27:32 [Zakim]
17:27:36 [timbl]
17:27:39 [Zakim]
17:27:44 [timbl]
Zakim, call timbl-office
17:27:44 [Zakim]
ok, timbl; the call is being made
17:27:45 [Zakim]
17:27:52 [noah]
zakim, who is talking?
17:28:05 [Zakim]
noah, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: noah (5%), jar.a (5%)
17:28:18 [Zakim]
17:28:36 [JeniT]
Topic: HTML5 Review: Microdata/RDFa
17:29:22 [Zakim]
17:30:13 [noah]
NM: Jeni is taking the lead for the TAG on the microdata/RDFa work
17:30:38 [noah]
NM: Looking for perspectives from the TAG
17:32:37 [noah]
JT: There is disagreement as to whether the task force is going to be an effective way to make progress. Some sense that each 'camp' is moving forward mostly independenlty, leading to them being out there side-by-side
17:33:28 [noah]
JT: Even if so, my personal feeling is that there is useful work for a group of some sort to do in helping to either identify subsets and guidance, change them to bring them together, give guidance to people doing vocabularies, etc.
17:33:59 [noah]
JT: I would like to know what the TAG thinks about undertaking an effort framed in that way, and whether it's a good use of my "TAG time" in particular.
17:34:11 [noah]
JT: Also curious whether we should keep pushing harder for convergence.
17:35:08 [noah]
TBL: My initial hopes for the task force and looking at your blog post... I had the impression that you Jeni thought there was some overlap, and perhaps that some syntax could be shared. I thought if that was the case, a task force could take a real technical look.
17:35:43 [noah]
TBL: Obviously, you have to get buy in. If there was a small change, e.g. to RDFa, would people be willing to consider such a shift, and similarly for microdata?
17:36:11 [noah]
TBL: I think Manu's letter is on the pessimistic side
17:37:31 [JeniT]
17:37:56 [noah]
TBL: If that's technically impossible, I'm willing to put away the task force. If it's technically feasible but politically problematic, then we should hold people accountable if they are intransigent. The future is longer than the past.
17:38:53 [noah]
JT: I always thought if we were going to get convergence it won't be by "banging heads". Rather, it will likely be by gradually evolving the languages to the point where there is defacto commonality, which people will come to recognize and value.
17:39:48 [noah]
JT: I'm somewhat inclined to do this through e.g. change proposals and bug proposals. It's important that there also be a polictical context in which such proposals would get the right attention.
17:44:07 [noah]
NM: F2F session
17:44:12 [noah]
JT: Probably not
17:45:02 [noah]
NM: OK, we will not hold time, but I would welcome it if you ask for a session, even for informal brainstorming.
17:45:03 [JeniT]
ScribeNick: JeniT
17:45:24 [JeniT]
Topic: Planning for Sept. 2011 F2F
17:45:42 [JeniT]
17:46:29 [JeniT]
noah: a lot of the required reading is already available
17:47:14 [JeniT]
noah: my intention is to wrap about 3pm on 3rd day
17:47:32 [JeniT]
... the product pages have been very helpful to me
17:47:53 [JeniT]
... the structure is to first take a look at each of those, and then some of the other things we have
17:48:06 [JeniT]
... section 1 has proposed goals
17:48:06 [noah]
17:48:07 [noah]
Make progress on our five top priority products:
17:48:15 [noah]
Prepare client-side state finding for publication (unless we decide there's too much more to do on #! and/or RDFa use of fragids
17:48:15 [noah]
Review status of RDFa/Microdata task force, and set up appropriate ACTIONs for tracking
17:48:15 [noah]
Make progress on our other active products
17:48:15 [noah]
Give guidance and feedback to Norm Walsh and the subcommittee working on XML/HTML Unification
17:48:15 [noah]
Rebalance TAG member assignments (noting, e.g., Jeni's new responsibilities for RDFa/Microdata)
17:48:45 [JeniT]
noah: in client-side state area, we are close to publishing a TAG finding
17:48:56 [JeniT]
... ashok has a draft for review; vote at the meeting to publish
17:49:10 [JeniT]
... next goal will change (reviewing status of RDFa/microdata TF)
17:49:14 [JeniT]
... that's now a maybe
17:49:50 [JeniT]
... we also need to rebalance from people who are overburdened
17:50:30 [JeniT]
... HTML5 Last Call -- Overview
17:50:51 [JeniT]
... this closed on August 3rd
17:51:18 [JeniT]
... the only thing we wanted to take forward was microdata/RDFa
17:51:39 [JeniT]
... we will review and hopefully declare success
17:51:45 [JeniT]
... track microdata/RDFa as its own item
17:52:21 [JeniT]
... this will be a short session, to make sure we haven't lost loose ends
17:52:28 [JeniT]
... might look briefly at microdata/RDFa
17:52:46 [JeniT]
... ISSUE-60 (webApplicationState-60): Web Applications: Client-side state
17:52:53 [noah]
TAG Finding: Identifying Application State Due date: 1 Nov 2011
17:52:53 [noah]
25 June 2011: Draft for TAG review based on June 2011 F2F review
17:52:53 [noah]
1 Sept 2011: Last-call quality draft
17:52:53 [noah]
W3C Note with FPWD (Raman's version) indicating this work no longer on Rec. track (to be done after reference to finding available)
17:53:25 [JeniT]
... goal is detailed review and a vote on the draft
17:53:42 [JeniT]
... also, when Raman did a 1st version it was put on the Rec track
17:54:04 [JeniT]
... we agreed for Raman's draft to be published as a Note
17:54:21 [JeniT]
... at the F2F in June
17:54:30 [JeniT]
ashok: this is Raman's old write-up from 2009?
17:54:55 [JeniT]
noah: yes, but it's the version that was published as a FPWD, so the W3C process means we have to do this
17:55:11 [JeniT]
... we can indicate that the TAG finding is the follow-on to that work
17:55:20 [Yves]
that's indeed right, final note with s SoTD explaining where the work is now
17:55:31 [JeniT]
... ISSUE-66 (mimeAndWeb-66-27): IETF Draft on MIME and the Web
17:55:59 [noah]
Product page:
17:56:38 [noah]
Larry emails:
17:56:52 [JeniT]
... Larry has said in the last few weeks saying that doing a separate draft from the TAG is no longer the right goal
17:57:00 [JeniT]
... lots of efforts at the IETF that cover the space
17:57:08 [JeniT]
... recommends refocussing on reviewing those
17:57:22 [JeniT]
... discussion on whether to do that or not, and what to say to W3C management
17:57:53 [jar]
17:59:29 [JeniT]
... ISSUE-60 (webApplicationState-60): Web Applications: Fragment ID Semantics and MIME Types
18:00:05 [JeniT]
... ISSUE-57 (HttpRedirections-57), ISSUE-63 (metadataArchitecture-63) and ISSUE-14 (HttpRange-14) : URI Definition Discovery; Metadata Architecture
18:00:20 [JeniT]
jar: ISSUE-58 and Persistence are carry over from June
18:00:45 [JeniT]
18:01:19 [JeniT]
noah: ISSUE-60 (webApplicationState-60): Web Applications: Client-side Storage
18:01:39 [JeniT]
... ashok and I have an action to propose an activity here
18:02:08 [JeniT]
ashok: I've been trying to find apps that use client-side storage, and I've not been very successful
18:02:20 [JeniT]
... one wonderful app and a bunch of toys
18:02:53 [JeniT]
noah: I'd have thought Google mobile apps would have been poster children
18:03:10 [JeniT]
ashok: sure, we can argue that you can do these things offline
18:03:25 [JeniT]
... I was trying to find things where you can write different styles of apps
18:03:46 [JeniT]
... so if there are more examples, that would be wonderful
18:04:06 [JeniT]
noah: if you leave off the Google apps, you're leaving off the main interesting things
18:04:22 [JeniT]
... if you have a choice between local and cloud storage, there's a tendency to do it in the cloud
18:04:45 [JeniT]
... so it's natural to see the main uses as tackling network connectivity issues
18:05:01 [JeniT]
ashok: different parts of the elephant
18:05:25 [JeniT]
noah: ISSUE-50 (URNsAndRegistries-50): Persistent references
18:05:54 [JeniT]
... I think we're invested in this work
18:06:08 [JeniT]
jar: it's in a continuing brainstorming stage
18:06:15 [JeniT]
... F2Fs are the best opportunity to talk about this
18:06:54 [jar]
we're ready to do a product page
18:07:06 [jar]
or will be at end of session
18:07:20 [JeniT]
noah: ISSUE-25 (deepLinking-25): Can publication of hyperlinks constitute copyright infringment?
18:07:35 [JeniT]
... draft was reviewed at last F2F
18:07:49 [JeniT]
... were supposed to get some legal advice
18:07:57 [JeniT]
... Dan says he hasn't had much luck yet
18:08:21 [JeniT]
jar: I can get Thynh (sp?) to review it
18:08:27 [jar]
18:08:48 [JeniT]
s/Thynh (sp?)/thinh/
18:09:01 [JeniT]
noah: might we find a time for him to dial in?
18:09:13 [JeniT]
jar: I'll mention it
18:10:35 [JeniT]
noah: ISSUE-67 (HTML-XML-Divergence-67): HTML / XML Unification
18:10:39 [JeniT]
... we just covered that
18:11:01 [JeniT]
... there are also optional items
18:11:12 [JeniT]
... carried over bodies from June F2F
18:11:21 [JeniT]
... eb Applications: Design of APIs for Web Applications (minimization)
18:11:34 [JeniT]
s/... eb/... Web/
18:11:39 [noah]
18:11:45 [noah]
Key deliverables with dates:
18:11:45 [noah]
By 15 October 2011: an approved TAG finding on API minimization
18:11:54 [noah]
18:11:54 [noah]
Initial draft finding for community review 2011-07-31
18:12:17 [JeniT]
noah: my inclination is to have a session to straighten out a realistic schedule
18:12:40 [JeniT]
... Product: Coordination with IAB/IETF on architecture of web applications: Joint session with Internet Architecture Board
18:12:54 [JeniT]
... we had the joint phone session with the IAB
18:13:05 [JeniT]
... we talked about trying to find other times to meet jointly
18:13:47 [JeniT]
Yves: I think F2F time would be a waste
18:14:17 [noah]
18:14:17 [trackbot]
ACTION-565 -- Noah Mendelsohn to talk to Bernard about possible IAB/TAG co-location -- due 2011-08-16 -- OPEN
18:14:18 [trackbot]
18:14:30 [noah]
Noah to schedule ACTION-565 for telcon, not F2F
18:14:59 [noah]
18:14:59 [trackbot]
ACTION-565 -- Noah Mendelsohn to talk to Bernard about possible IAB/TAG co-location -- due 2011-08-16 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:14:59 [trackbot]
18:15:16 [JeniT]
noah: ACTION-545: Privacy
18:15:25 [JeniT]
... Web Applications: Security
18:15:26 [noah]
18:16:06 [JeniT]
... working on guidance from 11 August to have at most 1/2 hour
18:16:18 [JeniT]
... on security, we have John Kemp's work
18:16:34 [JeniT]
... but we haven't identified who in the TAG should be doing anything, or what it should be
18:16:55 [JeniT]
ashok: one thought is to start a security wiki to spell out the state of the art on the web
18:17:07 [JeniT]
... probably worthwhile to also have a wiki about privacy
18:17:21 [JeniT]
... as a spot where people can write about what's going on
18:17:53 [JeniT]
noah: if other things crowd these out, they probably won't happen
18:18:23 [JeniT]
ashok: I think it's worth speaking briefly about whether we ought to start a wiki
18:18:45 [JeniT]
noah: the only reason I'm hesitant is because that might be hard to do briefly
18:19:06 [JeniT]
ashok: I think it's important because privacy and security are central
18:19:21 [JeniT]
... I think we should have something
18:19:54 [JeniT]
noah: RFC 3023bis and IRI
18:20:37 [JeniT]
noah: is there anything that I missed for the agenda?
18:20:49 [JeniT]
... if there are any corrections on relative priorities
18:20:57 [JeniT]
jar: Unicode normalisation?
18:21:18 [plinss]
18:21:49 [jar]
hmm.... we do need to talk about 3023 even if briefly...
18:22:08 [JeniT]
Topic: ACTION-590: Unicode normalization
18:22:30 [noah]
Email from Addison Phillips
18:23:26 [JeniT]
plinss: This gets interesting in how it impacts HTML5, APIs and so on
18:23:38 [JeniT]
... I think it's something that TAG should be working on
18:24:05 [JeniT]
noah: some others were saying that other people have it as their day job
18:24:35 [JeniT]
timbl: does the 2nd paragraph mean that current guidelines can't be technically implemented?
18:24:55 [JeniT]
plinss: they're not being implemented because they're hard to implement for performance reasons
18:25:14 [JeniT]
... the TAG needs to say that this is important, across specs
18:25:27 [JeniT]
... or to say too little too late and forget it
18:25:55 [JeniT]
noah: would it make sense for you (plinss) to write something that the TAG might say (to the private address)
18:26:10 [JeniT]
... it sounds like something that we would write email to address rather than a finding
18:26:19 [JeniT]
... we can then discuss that email
18:26:28 [JeniT]
plinss: I can do that
18:26:40 [JeniT]
ashok: I wonder if we should have Addison come on a TAG telcon to tell us what's going on
18:26:55 [JeniT]
noah: yes, but it would have to be after the F2F
18:28:12 [JeniT]
... we could send an email to Addison
18:28:19 [JeniT]
... saying we're working on a position
18:28:55 [timbl]
Tracker, who do you know?
18:29:16 [noah]
. ACTION Plinss to draft possible TAG position statement on Unicode, and alert Addison Phillips of our intention to attempt to get agreement starting in October after the F2F
18:29:32 [JeniT]
noah: is this worth F2F time
18:29:45 [JeniT]
plinss: I think it's worth a little bit of time
18:30:21 [noah]
ACTION Plinss to draft possible TAG position statement on Unicode, and alert Addison Phillips of our intention to attempt to get agreement starting in October after the F2F
18:30:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-592 - Draft possible TAG position statement on Unicode, and alert Addison Phillips of our intention to attempt to get agreement starting in October after the F2F [on Peter Linss - due 2011-09-08].
18:31:03 [JeniT]
Topic: ACTION-510: RDF URI mappings in the HTML5 microdata
18:31:33 [JeniT]
noah: does Hixie dropping the section resolve your concern, timbl?
18:31:51 [JeniT]
timbl: yes, that resolves one concern, raising the concern about no standard mapping from microdata to RDF
18:31:59 [JeniT]
noah: ok, we need more discussion of it
18:32:07 [JeniT]
timbl: it comes under the TF discussion
18:33:15 [JeniT]
18:33:16 [Zakim]
18:33:18 [Zakim]
18:33:18 [Zakim]
18:33:19 [Zakim]
18:33:19 [Zakim]
18:33:24 [JeniT]
rssagent, draft minutes
18:33:25 [Zakim]
18:33:40 [Zakim]
18:33:41 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:33:43 [Zakim]
Attendees were Norm, Ashok_Malhotra, plinss, noah, JeniT, Yves, Timbl, +1.617.538.aaaa, jar, +1.617.209.aabb
18:33:50 [JeniT]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:33:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JeniT
18:39:27 [JeniT]
JeniT has joined #tagmem
18:39:30 [JeniT]
rrsagent, make log public
18:40:28 [JeniT]
rrsagent, bye
18:40:28 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
18:40:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Noah to ping Norm end of Sept. on revised HTML/XML report per discussion on 1 Sept 2011 [1]
18:40:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in