IRC log of text on 2011-08-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:26:09 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #text

15:26:09 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/22-text-irc

15:29:20 [Judy]

zakim, this will be WAI_PF(Text)

15:29:20 [Judy]

meeting: HTML A11Y Text Alternatives Sub-Group Teleconference

15:29:20 [Judy]

chair:Judy_Brewer

15:29:20 [Zakim]

ok, Judy, I see WAI_PF(Text)11:30AM already started

15:30:21 [Lynn_Holdsworth]

Lynn_Holdsworth has joined #text

15:30:51 [Judy]

agenda+ meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming>

15:30:51 [Judy]

agenda+ table summary <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Category:Table_Summary>

15:30:51 [Judy]

agenda+ fig caption <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13651> also read minutes from A11Y TF <http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-html-a11y-minutes.html>

15:30:51 [Judy]

agenda+ response to Jonas on longdesc <http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Jfoliot/longdescresponse>

15:30:51 [Zakim]

+ +44.207.391.aaaa

15:30:52 [Judy]

agenda+ update from bug triage team on when any new text-alternative-related bugs might be incoming?

15:30:54 [Judy]

agenda+ other business?

15:30:56 [Judy]

agenda+ confirm next meeting; identify next scribe; adjourn.

15:31:11 [janina]

janina has joined #text

15:31:29 [Zakim]

+??P0

15:31:52 [Zakim]

+Judy

15:31:58 [JF]

zakim, aaaa is Lynn_Holdsworth

15:31:58 [Zakim]

+Lynn_Holdsworth; got it

15:31:59 [janina]

zakim, ??P0 is Janina

15:31:59 [Zakim]

+Janina; got it

15:32:01 [Joshue]

Joshue has joined #text

15:32:21 [Judy]

zakim, who's here?

15:32:21 [Zakim]

On the phone I see John_Foliot, ??P13, Lynn_Holdsworth, Janina, Judy

15:32:22 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Joshue, janina, Lynn_Holdsworth, RRSAgent, Zakim, Judy, JF

15:32:34 [Joshue]

zakim, ??P13 is Joshue

15:32:34 [Zakim]

+Joshue; got it

15:33:46 [Joshue]

scribe: Joshue

15:34:43 [Joshue]

TOPIC: Meta Generator

15:34:50 [Joshue]

zakim, mute me

15:34:50 [Zakim]

Joshue should now be muted

15:35:31 [Joshue]

TOPIC: @Summary CP

15:35:32 [JF]

scribe: JF

15:35:41 [Joshue]

zakim, unmute me

15:35:41 [Zakim]

Joshue should no longer be muted

15:35:53 [JF]

zakim, take up agendum 1

15:35:53 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming>" taken up [from Judy]

15:36:05 [JF]

zakim, take up agendum 2

15:36:05 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "table summary <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Category:Table_Summary>" taken up [from Judy]

15:36:17 [Joshue]

Josh's CP http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Category:Table_Summary

15:36:36 [JF]

JB: note that Laura C posted some additional info w.r.t. the @summary response

15:36:51 [JF]

JO: not yet had a chance to review, but it is new data/info

15:37:13 [JF]

knowing laura it is likely very good stuff, and worth adding, but need to read through it quickly

15:37:34 [JF]

JB: can we take a quick skim and review Laura's additional info

15:37:45 [Judy]

http://lists.w3.org//Public/public-html-a11y/2011Aug/0515.html

15:37:58 [JF]

[taking a minute to read the email]

15:38:57 [Judy]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Aug/0515.html

15:42:23 [Joshue]

Lynn: We were looking for use cases but couldn't find any

15:42:32 [JF]

LH: Both Leonie and I looked for use cases and were unable to come up with any

15:44:19 [Joshue]

JS: Laura does point out that there are use case

15:44:26 [JF]

JS: Just wish to say that I can appreciate how they may have not succeeded with that, but Laura notes that there are use-cases already in the proposal

15:44:27 [Joshue]

JS: They need to be up front

15:45:04 [JF]

JS: the chairs sometimes don't "get it", and having the use-cases up front provides the 'schooling' to understand the issue

15:45:08 [Joshue]

+q

15:45:13 [Judy]

q?

15:45:44 [JF]

JO: there ae re use-cases. It is tricky and a bit difficult, we are reiterating the same thing

15:46:06 [JF]

Laura's points are correct,, with out use-cases and justification are key

15:46:32 [JF]

JO: Lief has provided excellent data on where support is missing

15:46:36 [Joshue]

I'm going to add Leif to the wiki http://malform.no/testing/html5/table+aria.html

15:46:41 [JF]

Q+

15:47:26 [JF]

JO: happy to hand this to Laura to re-work, or if Laura could submit a second proposal...

15:47:39 [Joshue]

-q

15:47:47 [JF]

JB: if Joshue could take a second pass, it would retain some consistency

15:48:15 [Judy]

action: Josh update the table summary proposal to incorporate Laura's input, and Leif's examples

15:48:19 [Joshue]

JF: Laura points to Vlad blog, I would rather not include that link. It is negative towards ARIA

15:48:25 [Joshue]

JOC: Noted

15:48:34 [Judy]

agenda?

15:48:44 [Joshue]

JF: The gist is that ARIA is really complicated etc, and it is the wrong message.

15:48:54 [Joshue]

+q

15:49:00 [JF]

ack JF

15:49:30 [JF]

JF notes that the Vlad Alexander blog proposal is negative to ARIA and could lead to other issues down the road

15:49:54 [JF]

JB: asks JO if he can take another pass at this over the next days

15:50:03 [JF]

JO: can do so this week and will shoot for end of week

15:50:33 [JF]

JO: will try and do justice with what Laura has submitted.

15:50:38 [Judy]

[judy will put table summary on the agenda for next week again]

15:51:18 [JF]

JB: if anyone else has any other input/feedback to this please speak up

15:51:43 [Judy]

zakim, close this agendum

15:51:43 [Zakim]

I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Judy

15:51:49 [Judy]

q?

15:52:02 [JF]

ack J

15:52:27 [Judy]

zakim, close this agendum

15:52:27 [Zakim]

agendum 2 closed

15:52:28 [Zakim]

I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:52:30 [Zakim]

1. meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming> [from Judy]

15:52:37 [Joshue]

Scribe: Josh

15:52:40 [Judy]

zakim, take up agendum 1

15:52:40 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming>" taken up [from Judy]

15:52:46 [Joshue]

zakim, mute me

15:52:46 [Zakim]

Joshue should now be muted

15:52:57 [Joshue]

TOPIC: Meta Name Generator

15:53:04 [Joshue]

JB: I want to see if anyone has comments

15:53:49 [Joshue]

JB: Otherwise I think we will leave it for a week or so when SteveF is here.

15:54:02 [Joshue]

JF: I have looked at it, it looks good.

15:54:50 [Judy]

Judy: FYI, here are Laura's comments on the meta name generator proposal

15:54:52 [Judy]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Aug/0516.html

15:54:56 [Joshue]

JF: We don't say that we should be rejecting the current decision, but one has been made - we talk about problems about the descision but what do we suggest?

15:55:08 [Joshue]

JF: Are we making a forceful enough case?

15:55:17 [Joshue]

JB: Maybe restate it.

15:55:30 [Joshue]

JF: The current CP doesn't make a strong case for reversing the desicion.

15:55:41 [Joshue]

JB: So make a strong case then!

15:55:50 [Joshue]

JF: I will contact Steve about this.

15:56:34 [Joshue]

JB: Laura had sent some comments, they are on IRC (dropped in here)- she mentioned evidence that was ignored in the descision - see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Aug/0516.html

15:56:52 [Joshue]

JB: She is suggesting adding to Mike Smiths validator

15:57:09 [Joshue]

JS: The idea comes from the Birmingham F2F

15:57:30 [Joshue]

JS: It is a subtle strategic move, to make this work.

15:57:48 [Judy]

and Steve's proposal, reminder link:

15:57:49 [Judy]

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming

15:58:21 [Joshue]

JB: Regarding the rest of Steves proposal - if there is anything that others spot, please do comment or drop in IRC etc so Steve can track it

15:58:38 [Joshue]

+q

15:58:43 [Joshue]

zakim, unmute me

15:58:43 [Zakim]

Joshue should no longer be muted

15:58:44 [Judy]

zakim, close item 1

15:58:44 [Zakim]

I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Judy

15:58:58 [Judy]

zakim, re-open item 1

15:58:58 [Zakim]

I don't understand 're-open item 1', Judy

15:59:08 [Judy]

zakim, open item 1

15:59:08 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming>" taken up [from Judy]

15:59:12 [JF]

JO: agree that there is not really clear about what the CP was about.

15:59:47 [JF]

JO: Needs to better define what the problem is - more clearly.

16:00:08 [JF]

JS: it comes back to the use-cases - lay out the problem more clearly right from the start

16:00:32 [JF]

JB: is the problem with the Title - is it clear enough?

16:01:26 [Joshue]

JOC: +1 to Janina

16:01:37 [JF]

JS: I would change the "does not" to "must not"

16:02:04 [Judy]

judy... or "missing alt should not be conforming in the presence of meta name generator"

16:02:13 [Judy]

q?

16:03:46 [Joshue]

-q

16:06:30 [Judy]

q+

16:09:02 [Judy]

judy: it's useful to offer additional clarification of user needs

16:09:50 [Judy]

...some developers have not necessarily had the exposure to the diversity of users as they carry out different tasks and functions on the web

16:10:34 [Zakim]

-Joshue

16:11:13 [Joshue]

:-)

16:11:21 [Judy]

janina: barrier reduction is complex.... some features are needed to ensure usability across people with different disabilities, different configurations, and different skill levels

16:11:22 [Zakim]

+??P4

16:11:27 [Joshue]

zakim, ??P4 is Joshue

16:11:27 [Zakim]

+Joshue; got it

16:12:05 [Zakim]

-Joshue

16:12:49 [Joshue]

Just to say I totally agree with Janina, but I remember the maxim 'A man changed against his will is of the same opinion still'

16:12:52 [Judy]

zakim, close item one

16:12:52 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'close item one', Judy

16:13:04 [Zakim]

+??P4

16:13:09 [JF]

JB: proposing another agenda tweak

16:13:11 [Joshue]

zakim, ??P4 is Joshue

16:13:11 [Zakim]

+Joshue; got it

16:13:43 [JF]

JB: hope we arrive to a better shared understanding

16:14:32 [Judy]

agenda?

16:14:45 [Judy]

zakim, close item 1

16:14:52 [Zakim]

I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Judy

16:15:01 [JF]

Q?

16:15:15 [Joshue]

JB: I think we should talk about response to Jonas.

16:15:22 [Joshue]

JB: Objections?

16:15:27 [JF]

ack J

16:15:40 [Joshue]

JS: Nope, but I have an idea before we write up.

16:16:06 [JF]

s/write up/wrap up

16:16:19 [Joshue]

JB: Lynn you asked me to send some example for figcaption etc, I haven't sent yet but I need to prepare. There are others looking at this.

16:16:23 [Joshue]

zakim, mute me

16:16:23 [Zakim]

Joshue should now be muted

16:16:35 [Joshue]

JB: Anyone wanting to talk about figcaption?

16:16:47 [Judy]

zakim, take up item 3

16:16:47 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "fig caption <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13651> also read minutes from A11Y TF <http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-html-a11y-minutes.html>" taken up [from

16:16:50 [Zakim]

... Judy]

16:17:18 [Joshue]

JB: Thanks to Lynn for offering to test examples, I will be preparing examples to circulate.

16:17:28 [Joshue]

JB: Cyns and RichS are both involved.

16:17:40 [Joshue]

JB: There will be a discussing in Sept 1st

16:17:46 [Judy]

zakim, close item 3

16:17:46 [Zakim]

agendum 3, fig caption <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13651> also read minutes from A11Y TF <http://www.w3.org/2011/08/18-html-a11y-minutes.html>, closed

16:17:49 [Zakim]

I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

16:17:51 [Zakim]

1. meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming> [from Judy]

16:17:55 [Joshue]

s/discussing/discussion

16:17:56 [Judy]

zakim, take up item 4

16:17:56 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "response to Jonas on longdesc <http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Jfoliot/longdescresponse>" taken up [from Judy]

16:18:53 [Joshue]

JB: JohnF's proposal came out this morning, thanks John.

16:19:07 [Judy]

http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Jfoliot/longdescresponse

16:19:27 [Joshue]

JF: It's a response rather than a proposal really.

16:19:49 [Joshue]

<group reads>

16:24:42 [Joshue]

zakim, unmute me

16:24:42 [Zakim]

Joshue should no longer be muted

16:25:12 [Joshue]

I will need more time to parse this doc outside this call..

16:25:29 [Joshue]

+q

16:25:54 [Judy]

q+

16:25:57 [janina]

q+

16:26:20 [Judy]

q- later

16:26:34 [Judy]

ack josh

16:27:00 [JF]

q+

16:30:40 [Judy]

Josh: need to say that the non-discoverability issue is user agent responsibility

16:30:47 [janina]

scribe: janina

16:30:55 [Zakim]

-Joshue

16:32:18 [Judy]

Janina: think we're getting there, with this response. No overall philosophical comments so far. Concern would be just to be more specific, for instance with "this proposal" when there are multiple

16:32:51 [Judy]

...and the description of the current behavior of describedby... that behavior is as is intended... as designed.

16:34:16 [Judy]

Janina: Jonas is asking aria describedby to do something it wasn't designed to do, e.g. to subvert the intended designed of aria describedby

16:35:00 [JF]

JF: Made a direct edit in the wiki, now reads "In contrast, the *designed* behavior of Screen Reading technology..."

16:35:40 [janina]

judy: Will need to read more carefully, but have some rhetorical comments already ...

16:36:27 [janina]

judy: Hmmm, looking ... there's a part where, as a reader, I get lost ...

16:36:52 [janina]

judy: bottom of discoverability section, there's a Q that goes straight into ...

16:37:19 [janina]

jf: There are three key points to be made, noted up top

16:37:49 [janina]

jf: Discoverability is first

16:37:58 [janina]

jf: Preservation of rich content

16:38:22 [janina]

jf: Usability, the need to preserve support for existing UAs

16:38:41 [janina]

jf: Have less support in UAs using ARIA at this time

16:39:52 [janina]

judy: Wondering whether the rhetorical device of ending a section with a Q may be confusing, where it's not clear where one section/argument ends and another begins

16:40:56 [Zakim]

-Judy

16:41:30 [Zakim]

+Judy

16:43:35 [janina]

judy: Hopefully a simple suggestion ... End each suection with a simple and clear wrap up

16:45:06 [janina]

jf: Also agree at keeping the two proposals distincly clear, identifying Jonas' proposal vs TF proposal

16:46:24 [janina]

jf: Can take a bit more time over the next few days

16:47:03 [janina]

jf: I hear the feedback and have ideas on how to get this in

16:47:12 [janina]

jf: Meanwhile, written feedback will be helpful

16:48:35 [Zakim]

+Laura_Carlson

16:48:39 [Judy]

zakim, close item 4

16:48:39 [Zakim]

I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Judy

16:49:15 [Laura_]

Laura_ has joined #text

16:49:21 [JF]

http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Jfoliot/longdescresponse#User_Interaction_-_Discoverability

16:49:39 [Judy]

zakim, open item 4

16:49:39 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "response to Jonas on longdesc <http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Jfoliot/longdescresponse>" taken up [from Judy]

16:49:50 [Judy]

q?

16:49:55 [Judy]

ack janina

16:49:56 [JF]

qack JF

16:50:00 [JF]

ack JF

16:50:06 [Judy]

ack jf

16:50:14 [Judy]

ack judy

16:51:59 [janina]

laura: Noting that longdesc and table summary issues have much in common

16:52:42 [janina]

judy: Noting there are two CP's on longdesc in addition to the TF consensud proposal from Laura

16:55:44 [Judy]

zakim, close item 4

16:55:44 [Zakim]

agendum 4, response to Jonas on longdesc <http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Jfoliot/longdescresponse>, closed

16:55:46 [Zakim]

I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

16:55:47 [Zakim]

1. meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming> [from Judy]

16:55:59 [Judy]

zakim, open item 5

16:55:59 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "update from bug triage team on when any new text-alternative-related bugs might be incoming?" taken up [from Judy]

16:56:12 [Judy]

zakim, close item 5

16:56:12 [Zakim]

agendum 5, update from bug triage team on when any new text-alternative-related bugs might be incoming?, closed

16:56:14 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

16:56:15 [Zakim]

1. meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming> [from Judy]

16:56:20 [Judy]

zakim, open item 6

16:56:20 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "other business?" taken up [from Judy]

16:56:31 [Judy]

agenda?

16:56:46 [Judy]

zakim, close item 1

16:56:46 [Zakim]

agendum 1, meta generator proposal <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming>, closed

16:56:50 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

16:56:52 [Zakim]

6. other business? [from Judy]

16:57:03 [Judy]

topic: HTML5 consensus process

16:57:56 [Judy]

janina: a lot has changed since TF began

16:58:11 [Judy]

...need to update the consensus process

16:59:14 [Judy]

...proposes that TF can delegate to the TF sub-groups, so that the sub-group can propose a consensus to the TF

16:59:32 [Judy]

...and only gets surveyed if objections raised

17:00:31 [JF]

JB: have a number of reservations about this. concerns around levels, process, the fact that this is a joint task-force

17:00:41 [janina]

janina: proposing that subteams propose a consensus that the TF telecon agrees (or not) and so minutes. Objections raised against those minutes would go to a WBS

17:01:16 [Zakim]

-Lynn_Holdsworth

17:01:30 [JF]

JB: the fact that this is a joint TF makes this even more complicated. Reliance on sub-groups complicates things even more; question of timing and participation criteria

17:02:34 [janina]

judy: consideration about time flow and participation

17:02:58 [JF]

JB: perhaps need to work on this more.

17:03:51 [JF]

JS: the unstated notion here is that if you are not participating in the minutes or telecons then you are not participating

17:04:04 [JF]

LC: streamlining the policy is a good idea

17:04:22 [JF]

but for those who cannot attend the telecons also need the opportunity to provide input'

17:04:35 [Judy]

s/HTML5 consensus process/HTML5 A11Y TF consensus process/

17:05:16 [Judy]

q+

17:05:46 [janina]

jf: How much longer will the TF be working?

17:06:04 [janina]

jf: Streamlining is a good idea, but participation is an important concern

17:06:36 [janina]

judy: Support TF consensus streamlining, but want to be particularly careful about how this works vis a vis Subteams

17:07:26 [janina]

judy: Expect the TF will stay operational until HTML5 goes TR

17:11:01 [janina]

[discussing schedule for next few weeks]

17:11:35 [Zakim]

-John_Foliot

17:11:37 [Zakim]

-Judy

17:11:38 [Zakim]

-Laura_Carlson

17:11:41 [Zakim]

-Janina

17:11:42 [Zakim]

WAI_PF(Text)11:30AM has ended

17:11:43 [Zakim]

Attendees were John_Foliot, +44.207.391.aaaa, Judy, Lynn_Holdsworth, Janina, Joshue, Laura_Carlson

17:11:46 [janina]

zakim, bye

17:11:46 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #text

17:11:54 [janina]

rrsagent, make minutes

17:11:54 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/22-text-minutes.html janina

17:12:29 [janina]

rrsagent, make log public

17:12:35 [janina]

rrsagent, make minutes

17:12:35 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/22-text-minutes.html janina

17:22:47 [Judy]

Judy has joined #text

18:31:52 [janina]

janina has left #text

19:33:57 [Judy]

Judy has joined #text