IRC log of rdf-wg on 2011-08-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:59:40 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:40 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:59:49 [Zakim]
14:59:53 [AndyS]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:59:59 [mbrunati]
mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:11 [mischat_]
mischat_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:13 [Guus]
zakim, who is here?
15:00:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, +20598aaaa, Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:00:14 [Zakim]
On IRC I see mischat_, mbrunati, RRSAgent, Zakim, FabGandon, AndyS, Scott_Bauer, Guus, gavinc, cygri, MacTed, mischat, tomayac, SteveH, davidwood, manu1, trackbot, NickH, manu,
15:00:16 [SteveH]
Zakim, what is the code?
15:00:16 [Zakim]
... ericP
15:00:17 [Zakim]
the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, SteveH
15:00:32 [pfps]
pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:33 [Zakim]
15:00:34 [Guus]
zakim, who is yalking?
15:00:34 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, Guus.
15:00:44 [pfps]
sounds LOVELY!
15:00:45 [Guus]
Zakim, who is talking?
15:00:52 [Zakim]
15:00:56 [Zakim]
Guus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (59%)
15:00:58 [cygri]
zakim, Marcelo is me
15:00:58 [Zakim]
+cygri; got it
15:01:03 [Zakim]
15:01:07 [Zakim]
15:01:12 [davidwood]
Zakim, DavidW is me
15:01:13 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:01:14 [SteveH]
Zakim, ??P9 is [Garlik]
15:01:14 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
15:01:15 [AndyS]
redialing ...
15:01:17 [Zakim]
+davidwood; got it
15:01:19 [Zakim]
15:01:21 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
15:01:23 [Zakim]
+[Garlik]; got it
15:01:25 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
15:01:29 [Zakim]
15:01:31 [Zakim]
15:01:31 [SteveH]
Zakim, [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
15:01:32 [Scott_Bauer]
zakim, tony is me
15:01:43 [Zakim]
+SteveH, mischat; got it
15:01:45 [Zakim]
+Scott_Bauer; got it
15:01:57 [Zakim]
15:02:03 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P12 is me
15:02:09 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
15:02:13 [zwu2]
zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:14 [Guus]
zakim, who is here?
15:02:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +20598aaaa, Peter_Patel-Schneider, davidwood, cygri, MacTed (muted), [Garlik], Scott_Bauer, tomayac, AndyS
15:02:27 [pchampin]
pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:28 [zwu2]
zakim, code?
15:02:30 [Zakim]
[Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
15:02:42 [Zakim]
15:02:50 [Zakim]
On IRC I see zwu2, pfps, mischat, mbrunati, RRSAgent, Zakim, FabGandon, AndyS, Scott_Bauer, Guus, gavinc, cygri, MacTed, tomayac, SteveH, davidwood, manu1, trackbot, NickH, manu,
15:02:55 [Zakim]
... ericP
15:02:57 [Zakim]
the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, zwu2
15:03:05 [Zakim]
+ +1.707.861.aabb
15:03:12 [gavinc]
zakim, aabb is me
15:03:31 [Zakim]
+gavinc; got it
15:04:19 [Zakim]
15:04:20 [PatHayes]
PatHayes has joined #rdf-wg
15:04:30 [Zakim]
15:04:33 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.265.aacc
15:04:44 [pchampin]
zakim, ??P21 is me
15:04:44 [zwu2]
zakim, +1.650.265.aacc is me
15:04:49 [zwu2]
zakim, mute me
15:04:50 [FabGandon]
Zakim, +[Sophia] is me
15:04:59 [Zakim]
+pchampin; got it
15:04:59 [cygri]
15:05:01 [Zakim]
+zwu2; got it
15:05:02 [pchampin]
zakim, mute me
15:05:09 [Zakim]
zwu2 should now be muted
15:05:11 [Zakim]
sorry, FabGandon, I do not recognize a party named '+[Sophia]'
15:05:19 [Zakim]
pchampin should now be muted
15:05:21 [FabGandon]
zakim, sophia is me
15:05:30 [gavinc]
gavinc has changed the topic to: (gavinc)
15:05:35 [Zakim]
+FabGandon; got it
15:05:37 [Guus]
zakim, who is here?
15:05:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +20598aaaa, Peter_Patel-Schneider, davidwood, cygri, MacTed (muted), [Garlik], Scott_Bauer, tomayac, AndyS, ericP, gavinc, FabGandon, pchampin (muted), zwu2
15:05:43 [ericP]
ericP has changed the topic to: RDF WG telecon: agenda
15:05:48 [Zakim]
... (muted)
15:05:54 [Zakim]
[Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
15:05:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see PatHayes, pchampin, zwu2, pfps, mischat, mbrunati, RRSAgent, Zakim, FabGandon, AndyS, Scott_Bauer, Guus, gavinc, cygri, MacTed, tomayac, SteveH, davidwood, manu1,
15:06:01 [Zakim]
... trackbot, NickH, manu, ericP
15:06:04 [Zakim]
15:06:38 [PatHayes]
zakim, mute me
15:06:38 [Zakim]
sorry, PatHayes, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:07:27 [PatHayes]
PatHayes is PatH
15:08:38 [ericP]
PROPOSED: accept as a record of the 3 Aug telecon as amended per
15:09:48 [ericP]
15:09:55 [ericP]
15:09:59 [mischat]
zakim, +PatH is PatHayes
15:09:59 [Zakim]
sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '+PatH'
15:11:07 [mbrunati]
sorry guys today I'm only via irc, some problems with the audio
15:11:14 [ericP]
ACTION: FabGandon to implement
15:11:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-73 - Implement [on Fabien Gandon - due 2011-08-24].
15:13:39 [Souri]
Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:13:48 [Zakim]
15:13:58 [NickH]
Zakim, ??P29 is me
15:13:58 [Zakim]
+NickH; got it
15:14:02 [NickH]
zakim, mute me
15:14:02 [Zakim]
NickH should now be muted
15:14:10 [Zakim]
15:14:16 [ericP]
15:14:16 [trackbot]
ACTION-65 And Pat to consider what words to add to minimal proposal. notes added
15:14:29 [ericP]
15:14:29 [trackbot]
ACTION-66 Contact Paul notes added
15:14:47 [ericP]
15:14:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-67 Review Pierre-A's comments on SPARQL graph store upade protocol notes added
15:15:07 [ericP]
15:15:07 [trackbot]
ACTION-68 Review Pierre-A's comments on SPARQL graph store upade protocol notes added
15:15:47 [ericP]
15:15:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-69 Update Turtle issue list to reflect current status notes added
15:16:03 [ericP]
15:16:03 [trackbot]
ACTION-70 Send email to provenance WG chairs about a joint call notes added
15:16:08 [ericP]
15:16:09 [trackbot]
ACTION-71 Email about joint task force, or something. maybe include RDFa and SPARQL notes added
15:17:06 [ericP]
topic: next telecon
15:17:38 [ericP]
davidwood: i proposed by email that ivan chair a meeting about RDF JSON work
15:17:52 [ericP]
whois tomayac
15:18:25 [ericP]
tomayac: Ian will put the doc in version control and we'll review
15:18:41 [ericP]
... in 1.5 weeks we should have something to disucss re: JSON
15:19:15 [ericP]
davidwood: does the JSON LD work obviate our need to continue our work?
15:19:37 [ericP]
tomayac: i'm slightly confused about the JSON LD work
15:19:50 [manu]
zakim, code?
15:19:50 [Zakim]
the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, manu
15:20:02 [ericP]
... ivan said we'd start with the Talis JSON and proceed to JSON LD
15:20:18 [Zakim]
15:20:20 [ericP]
... progress in the JSON LD task force
15:20:24 [manu]
zakim, I am ??P32
15:20:24 [Zakim]
+manu; got it
15:20:54 [manu]
15:21:14 [ericP]
davidwood: given manu's assertion that JSON LD meets all stated use cases so perhaps we should avoid making a competing spec
15:21:31 [ericP]
manu: i still need to review the RDF JSON use cases
15:21:55 [ericP]
... some diligence required to confirm the claim that JSON LD work meets all stated use cases
15:22:04 [ericP]
... should have a document in 2 months
15:22:20 [ericP]
... (JSON LD)
15:22:53 [ericP]
... we just need to examine both approaches
15:23:09 [gavinc]
15:23:23 [manu]
15:23:41 [ericP]
... there's a JSON LD playground which shows the choices of input and output
15:24:08 [ericP]
... shows a set of examples in different JSON representations
15:24:22 [ericP]
... spec defines the round-trip to RDF/XML
15:24:40 [ericP]
... the first 20% should be sufficient prep for next week
15:25:04 [ericP]
... then go ahead and play with the playground
15:25:30 [ericP]
ACTION: manu to send JSON discussion preparation message to public-rdf-wd
15:25:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-74 - Send JSON discussion preparation message to public-rdf-wd [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-08-24].
15:25:31 [tomayac]
it was resolved in
15:25:53 [ericP]
next telecon: 24 Aug
15:25:54 [tomayac]
from issue 2: "(1) Incubate on something like JSON-LD, (2) make a REC on something like Talis RDF/JSON, and (3) make a Note on current practice stuff like Linked Data API, at FTF1"
15:26:06 [ericP]
topic FTF2 Admin
15:26:09 [ericP]
topic: FTF2 Admin
15:26:21 [tomayac]
ian's and my doc will thus cover (2)
15:26:31 [ericP]
Guus: please fill in
15:26:59 [ericP]
cygri: we need UK site decision expected next week
15:27:08 [ericP]
... would help to know how many folks to expect
15:27:14 [NickH]
If people want to have a meeting in London, then I am sure the BBC can work something out
15:27:15 [ericP]
Guus: i see 4 so far
15:27:27 [NickH]
we have a lot of meeting rooms!
15:27:38 [pchampin]
I didn't update the wiki page yet, but I will only be able to join if there is a european location
15:27:39 [gavinc]
It looked like it was a Europe F2F with a remote at MIT ;)
15:27:59 [AndyS]
OxfordU/comp lab has a setup that works with MIT [no WG member?]
15:28:06 [ericP]
Guus: i can imagine half in UK, half at MIT
15:28:21 [ericP]
topic: Turtle
15:28:44 [ericP]
-> Turtle FPWD news item
15:28:50 [mischat]
i had asked soton uni, but it coincided with the "freshers week" which meant that rooms would have been hard to come by
15:28:57 [ericP]
Guus: editors need to monitor the comments list
15:29:22 [Zakim]
15:29:53 [ericP]
... someone should mail the semweb lists
15:30:07 [ericP]
gavinc: already one feedback from bob charm
15:30:51 [ericP]
ACTION: Guus to send mail to semantic web and LOD lists requesting feedback on Turtle FPWD
15:30:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-75 - Send mail to semantic web and LOD lists requesting feedback on Turtle FPWD [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-08-24].
15:31:10 [ericP]
Guus: if folks want to distribute this more widely, go ahead
15:31:51 [ericP]
gavinc: this WG is not lisverva subscribable
15:32:51 [ericP]
ericP: i don't think we've made DBWG and listserve work together
15:33:05 [ericP]
topic: RDF Concepts
15:33:18 [Zakim]
15:33:23 [ericP]
-> editor's draft
15:33:44 [ericP]
-> decision to publish
15:33:54 [cygri]
15:33:55 [ericP]
Guus: are editors still intereted in feedback?
15:34:03 [Guus]
15:34:13 [ericP]
cygri: sure, but i'd say we're good enough to publish now
15:34:28 [ericP]
... we could pick a date and get to what we can before the pub date
15:34:43 [ericP]
davidwood: i propose we make a transition request
15:35:10 [ericP]
Guus: there are comments, but if you don't want to address them before publication, go ahead
15:35:24 [mischat]
i have gone through the document abstract concept documents too, nothing but minor issues, i will send it round at some point soon
15:35:44 [ericP]
davidwood: i'd like to make the transition request and make changes in parallel
15:35:45 [ericP]
15:35:55 [ericP]
15:36:43 [gavinc]
15:37:21 [gavinc]
15:37:30 [ericP]
ericP: note that the WG is permitting the editors to make changes after the decision to publish
15:37:45 [ericP]
topic: ISSUE-12 language-tagged literals
15:38:01 [davidwood]
Transition request for RDF Concepts to FPWD sent
15:38:34 [ericP]
AndyS: cygri introduced two classes: rdf:text is the current plain literals and langstring, including xsd:string
15:39:01 [cygri]
15:39:12 [ericP]
PatHayes: all seems fine except the open question about whether it's a new datatype
15:39:25 [ericP]
... i'm happy to make it a datatype; i see it's a small change
15:39:38 [mischat]
15:39:38 [cygri]
15:39:45 [ericP]
... there are some who see this change as large
15:40:13 [gavinc]
can OWL datatype properties be used with literals without a datatype?
15:40:23 [AndyS]
sorry - will redial
15:40:30 [Zakim]
15:40:55 [ericP]
... what value do we get out of it being a datatype?
15:41:06 [ericP]
AndyS: principally uniformity
15:41:09 [Zakim]
15:41:16 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P12 is me
15:41:16 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
15:42:02 [ericP]
AndyS: current datatype of "" or ""@en is an error
15:42:04 [cygri]
15:42:36 [AndyS]
15:42:38 [ericP]
PatHayes: i see that as sufficient motivation to make rdf:langString a datatype
15:43:02 [ericP]
cygri: an concearned that this proposal changes the way datatypes work
15:43:17 [manu]
ack manu
15:43:19 [Guus]
15:43:26 [AndyS]
15:43:38 [ericP]
... lang-tagged string has an atypical lexical form
15:43:46 [ericP]
... is there a work-around?
15:44:22 [ericP]
... e.g. say that rdf:langStrings have no lexical to value mapping?
15:45:25 [ericP]
AndyS: a few options:
15:45:26 [Guus]
15:45:30 [cygri]
ackm e
15:45:31 [cygri]
ack me
15:45:36 [Guus]
ack me
15:45:42 [Guus]
ack AndyS
15:45:51 [manu]
zakim, who is on the call?
15:45:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +20598aaaa, Peter_Patel-Schneider, davidwood, cygri, MacTed (muted), [Garlik], Scott_Bauer, tomayac, ericP, gavinc, FabGandon, pchampin (muted), zwu2 (muted),
15:45:54 [ericP]
... cygri's: that there be no valid LtoV for rdf:langStrings
15:45:55 [Zakim]
... PatH, NickH (muted), Souri, tomayac.a, AndyS
15:45:56 [Zakim]
[Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
15:46:40 [ericP]
... modify the LtoV, which is parameterized by the datatype. extend the function to take a language parameter
15:46:50 [pchampin]
15:47:03 [ericP]
PatHayes: can say that LtoV operates on a lexical form + a tag
15:47:17 [AndyS]
ack me
15:47:28 [Guus]
ack pchampin
15:47:44 [PatHayes]
very rough sound
15:47:59 [PatHayes]
15:48:03 [AndyS]
could you type into IRC?
15:48:18 [NickH]
sorry, can't understand
15:48:25 [pchampin]
15:48:38 [gavinc]
zakim, mute pchampin
15:48:38 [Zakim]
pchampin should now be muted
15:48:43 [pchampin]
to AndyS's remark: having a valid lexical form makes it cumbersome, see PlainLiteral
15:48:56 [PatHayes]
15:49:15 [pchampin]
to Pat's remark: using the full lexical form will raise problems with Turtle, which has syntactic sugar for some datatypes
15:49:55 [AndyS]
The lexical part is the string - not encoded (c.f. rdf:PlainLiteral). Add extra info to the process by some means
15:50:00 [PatHayes]
any syntax that can describe tags, can be used unchanged.
15:50:00 [ericP]
cygri: it looks like we have consensus about what we want rdf:langString to look like, but we need to work to implementation details
15:50:16 [PatHayes]
the only change is to the abstract model.
15:50:40 [ericP]
... this will change the terminology. past changes and these invalidate the term "plain literal"
15:50:46 [PatHayes]
15:50:58 [PatHayes]
' is now a type. no prblem
15:51:00 [PatHayes]
15:51:04 [AndyS]
I don't think it must change Turtle - it's a mechanism along side short forms like integer or decimal or double.
15:51:15 [ericP]
... we want to avoid the impression that we've radically changed the language (which i don't believe we have)
15:51:19 [AndyS]
plain literal = rdf:Text
15:51:20 [AndyS]
15:51:29 [ericP]
Guus: you can connect the old terminology to the current form
15:51:40 [PatHayes]
really, this is a storm in a teacup.
15:52:22 [PatHayes]
I could try to summarize the options in an email.
15:52:36 [PatHayes]
I see four so far.
15:52:38 [PatHayes]
15:52:51 [ericP]
ericP: are there any disiderada which help us figure the implementation
15:52:52 [PatHayes]
15:53:05 [AndyS]
Thanks Pat
15:53:21 [ericP]
ACTION: PatHayes to summarize the options
15:53:21 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - PatHayes
15:53:28 [ericP]
ACTION: PatH to summarize the options
15:53:35 [ericP]
action -4
15:54:07 [ericP]
Guus: editors will have to look closely at PatHayes's summary
15:54:30 [ericP]
topic: WG priorities before F2F
15:55:16 [ericP]
Guus: which are the highest priority issues?
15:55:20 [pchampin]
15:55:20 [ericP]
... propose named graphs
15:55:37 [ericP]
cygri: agreed. the rdf:langString seems to be making good progress
15:56:25 [ericP]
davidwood: we're going to have a hard time writing documents and proposing changes to SPARQL until we have nailed down the multi-graph terminology
15:56:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-76 - Summarize the options [on Patrick Hayes - due 2011-08-24].
15:56:37 [trackbot]
Sorry, bad ACTION syntax
15:56:42 [ericP]
Guus: ok, multi-graph. what else?
15:56:58 [ericP]
cygri: what are the objections against using the SPARQL dataset design?
15:57:16 [ericP]
... sandro, pchampin, PatHayes aren't happy
15:59:31 [cygri]
15:59:47 [ericP]
ACTION: cygri to add strawman rdf dataset proposal to concepts
15:59:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-77 - Add strawman rdf dataset proposal to concepts [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-08-24].
16:00:06 [PatHayes]
Actually, PatH is getting to the point where he almost doesnt care what terminology is used, as long as we settle on something.
16:00:07 [AndyS]
Probably too weak/loose/open/flexible for this WG
16:00:19 [ericP]
Guus: priorities for Turtle?
16:00:25 [pchampin]
@cygri: I have to get up to date with the mailing list (I'm just back from holiday), but I as soon as I'm up to date, I can try to summarize in a mail what makes me unhappy in the SPARQL dataset model
16:01:33 [AndyS]
16:01:48 [ericP]
gavinc: talking to AndyS yesterday, ericP and I thought that N-Triples would be going into the Turtle doc
16:02:00 [ericP]
... but apparently there was a WG decision to publish separately?
16:02:57 [ericP]
Guus: there are many motivations to publish separately
16:03:37 [cygri]
gavinc, i'm pretty sure there wasn't any resolution on this yet. discussion but no resolution. discussion is in the F2F1 minutes, day1+day2
16:03:56 [ericP]
... but no cost to start with it as an appendix
16:04:57 [ericP]
ACTION: ericP to add content as an appendix to Turtle editor's draft before F2F
16:04:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-78 - Add content as an appendix to Turtle editor's draft before F2F [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2011-08-24].
16:05:28 [FabGandon]
FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
16:05:44 [Zakim]
16:06:03 [ericP]
Guus: JSON work will be discussed next week. priority discussion deferred 'till then
16:06:42 [ericP]
... is it worth starting on the semantics document?
16:07:03 [ericP]
PatHayes: we could start in parallel noting that terminology will shift
16:07:15 [ericP]
pfps, agreed?
16:09:02 [ericP]
Guus: we have separate editors listed for N-Triples
16:09:13 [ericP]
... which means they are likely to comment on gavinc's draft
16:09:30 [ericP]
... i think that the primer is good to write near the end
16:09:41 [ericP]
PatHayes: propose we gather examples
16:10:38 [ericP]
ACTION: Guus to discuss with FabGandon about where to put examples and what to do with primary before F2F
16:10:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-79 - Discuss with FabGandon about where to put examples and what to do with primary before F2F [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-08-24].
16:10:57 [ericP]
Guus: leave Trig and quad syntax for later?
16:11:12 [ericP]
... leave RDF/XML for later?
16:11:13 [PatHayes]
i have to leave soon. Andy, can you email me the current plain/lang literal terminology?
16:11:24 [ericP]
davidwood: we're motivated to touch RDF/XML only once
16:11:58 [ericP]
16:12:03 [AndyS]
Richard - do you want to let PatH know your current state on terminology? I'll resend email he may have lost
16:12:30 [Zakim]
16:12:42 [AndyS]
Regrets for next week.
16:12:50 [pchampin]
16:12:53 [cygri]
AndyS, ok i'll do that
16:12:56 [pchampin]
here is the link
16:13:00 [Zakim]
16:13:04 [Zakim]
16:13:09 [cygri]
16:13:11 [cygri]
start there
16:13:11 [Zakim]
16:13:13 [Zakim]
16:13:13 [Zakim]
16:13:19 [Zakim]
16:13:20 [Zakim]
16:13:20 [Zakim]
16:13:51 [ericP]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:13:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ericP
16:14:52 [pchampin]
Eric, the steps are clearly stated there:
16:15:07 [Zakim]
16:15:53 [gavinc]
16:16:50 [Zakim]
16:17:19 [pchampin]
pchampin has left #rdf-wg
16:18:31 [Zakim]
16:20:59 [Zakim]
16:25:10 [Zakim]
- +20598aaaa
16:29:13 [Zakim]
17:31:39 [Zakim]
17:36:40 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, tomayac.a, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
17:36:41 [Zakim]
SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
17:36:45 [Zakim]
Attendees were AndyS, +20598aaaa, Peter_Patel-Schneider, cygri, davidwood, MacTed, tomayac, SteveH, mischat, Scott_Bauer, ericP, +1.707.861.aabb, gavinc, pchampin, zwu2, FabGandon,
17:36:48 [Zakim]
... PatH, NickH, Souri, manu
18:02:48 [cygri]
cygri has joined #rdf-wg
18:03:34 [cygri]
cygri has joined #rdf-wg
18:16:20 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdf-wg
19:48:39 [domel]
domel has joined #rdf-wg
19:52:35 [domel]
Interesting SW community group
20:16:15 [Scott_Bauer]
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