IRC log of webtv on 2011-08-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:54:35 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webtv
13:54:35 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:54:37 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:54:39 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
13:54:39 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:54:40 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web and TV Interest Group Teleconference
13:54:40 [trackbot]
Date: 16 August 2011
13:55:02 [francois]
zakim, what conferences?
13:55:02 [Zakim]
I see UW_WebTVIG(Home Net)10:00AM, Team_(RevCadence)9:00AM, TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM active
13:55:04 [Zakim]
also scheduled at this time are MWI_BPWG()9:30AM, SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM, XML_(TAG TF)10:00AM, T&S_EGOV()9:00AM, Team_(PADIS)10:00AM, T&S_XMLSEC()10:00AM, WS_SOAP-JM()10:00AM,
13:55:07 [Zakim]
... Team_(MEET)10:00AM, Team_(iata)14:00Z, WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)9:00AM, VB_VBWG()10:00AM, IA_Team()10:00AM, WF_(ISOC)9:30AM
13:55:11 [francois]
zakim, this will be UW_WebTVIG
13:55:12 [Zakim]
ok, francois, I see UW_WebTVIG(Home Net)10:00AM already started
13:55:32 [francois]
Meeting: Home Network Task Force Teleconference (Web and TV IG)
13:55:35 [francois]
Chair: Giuseppe
13:55:46 [francois]
13:55:52 [giuseppe]
zakim, who is on the line
13:55:52 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the line', giuseppe
13:55:53 [r_berkoff]
r_berkoff has joined #webtv
13:56:10 [Zakim]
13:56:15 [kaz]
zakim, who is here?
13:56:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see rberkoff, ??P7, Kazuyuki (muted)
13:56:17 [Zakim]
On IRC I see r_berkoff, RRSAgent, Zakim, MattH, giuseppe, francois, kaz, trackbot
13:56:24 [Zakim]
13:56:32 [giuseppe]
zakim, ??P7 is me
13:56:32 [Zakim]
+giuseppe; got it
13:56:35 [kaz]
zakim, who is here?
13:56:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see rberkoff, giuseppe
13:56:38 [Zakim]
On IRC I see r_berkoff, RRSAgent, Zakim, MattH, giuseppe, francois, kaz, trackbot
13:56:45 [JanL]
JanL has joined #webtv
13:56:47 [Zakim]
13:56:59 [Zakim]
13:57:10 [kaz]
zakim, ??P9 is MattH
13:57:10 [Zakim]
+MattH; got it
13:57:33 [kaz]
zakim, mute me
13:57:33 [Zakim]
Kazuyuki should now be muted
13:57:34 [Zakim]
13:57:38 [kaz]
zakim, who is noisy?
13:57:41 [francois]
zakim, mute me
13:57:41 [Zakim]
francois should now be muted
13:57:49 [Zakim]
kaz, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 5 (28%), giuseppe (38%), MattH (4%)
13:57:54 [Zakim]
13:58:01 [kaz]
zakim, unmute me
13:58:01 [Clarke]
Clarke has joined #webtv
13:58:02 [Zakim]
Kazuyuki should no longer be muted
13:58:38 [Zakim]
13:58:40 [dcorvoysier]
dcorvoysier has joined #webtv
13:58:47 [kaz]
zakim, ??P12 is Clarke
13:58:52 [Zakim]
+Clarke; got it
13:59:03 [francois]
zakim, Cecile_Marc is really David_Corvoysier
13:59:10 [Zakim]
+David_Corvoysier; got it
13:59:27 [francois]
zakim, who is noisy?
13:59:47 [Zakim]
francois, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: giuseppe (80%)
13:59:52 [Zakim]
13:59:59 [francois]
zakim, mute giuseppe
14:00:05 [francois]
zakim, unmute giuseppe
14:00:07 [francois]
ack me
14:00:10 [Zakim]
giuseppe should now be muted
14:00:14 [Zakim]
giuseppe should no longer be muted
14:00:43 [francois]
zakim, mute me
14:00:43 [Zakim]
14:00:44 [Zakim]
francois should now be muted
14:01:32 [Zakim]
14:01:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.303.503.aaaa
14:01:52 [francois]
zakim, aaaa is Bob_Lund
14:01:52 [Zakim]
+Bob_Lund; got it
14:02:00 [francois]
ack me
14:02:02 [Zakim]
+ +
14:02:09 [francois]
zakim, mute me
14:02:09 [Zakim]
francois should now be muted
14:02:17 [francois]
zakim, aabb is Giuseppe
14:02:20 [Zakim]
+Giuseppe; got it
14:02:20 [giuseppe]
zakim, +46 is me
14:02:21 [Zakim]
sorry, giuseppe, I do not recognize a party named '+46'
14:02:26 [Zakim]
14:03:02 [francois]
scribe: francois
14:03:09 [francois]
Giuseppe: comment on the agenda?
14:03:30 [francois]
Topic: Requirements document
14:03:43 [giuseppe]
14:03:47 [francois]
Giuseppe: I've done some work this week. Not completely done, but almost.
14:03:55 [francois]
... merging use cases and extracting requirements.
14:04:05 [francois]
... First of all, I'd like to summarize our plan for this document.
14:04:23 [francois]
... First, finalize this by the end of this month.
14:04:38 [francois]
... Then include the rest of the IG in the discussion to bring further comments.
14:04:47 [Zakim]
14:04:53 [Zakim]
14:05:02 [francois]
... Then we'll bring this document to the IG F2F for final review, and then document ready can be published.
14:05:04 [rbardini]
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14:05:31 [francois]
... I tried to structure the document with a requirements section.
14:05:45 [francois]
... I tried to link the use cases with the requirements.
14:06:00 [narm_gadiraju]
narm_gadiraju has joined #webtv
14:06:03 [francois]
... I'd like to ask everyone to go through the list of requirements and check associations.
14:06:13 [francois]
... Propose updates when you're concerned about something.
14:06:17 [kaz]
Present: rberkoff, Kazuyuki, MattH, francois, Clarke, David_Corvoysier, JanL, Tatsuya_Igarashi, Giuseppe, Bob_Lund, Richard_Bardini
14:06:30 [Zakim]
14:06:35 [francois]
... What is really important is the requirements, the use cases could perhaps be marked as informative.
14:06:52 [Zakim]
14:06:54 [francois]
... They are very important to understand the requirements, but maybe this section could be marked as informative.
14:07:13 [francois]
... Then there's a section on security.
14:07:22 [francois]
... I welcome any comment on the document.
14:07:48 [francois]
... The whole document needs to be approved in the end, even if we approved all use cases. Open issues need to be addressed if they exist.
14:08:04 [MattH]
14:08:05 [francois]
... If disagreement, we'll add a section to highlight the lack of consensus within the group.
14:08:15 [JanL]
14:08:31 [francois]
Bob: Any idea how to indicate the priorities?
14:08:55 [francois]
Giuseppe: good question. This needs to be reflected somehow in the document. I don't have a strong opinion.
14:09:16 [francois]
... One way could be to identify requirements by number and add a mapping table with 3 priority levels.
14:09:27 [francois]
... in a dedicated section.
14:10:11 [narm_gadiraju]
narm is the one who spoke
14:10:13 [giuseppe]
14:10:24 [francois]
14:11:05 [francois]
Matt: Thanks, great job. I had a little look earlier. Looking at requirements Application communication. We might clarify that it is for direct communication and not for communication through intermediaries.
14:11:26 [francois]
Giuseppe: OK, I'd like to suggest you bring this comment to the mailing-list so that others can comment.
14:11:33 [francois]
Matt: Sure.
14:11:39 [francois]
14:11:41 [francois]
ack MattH
14:11:53 [kaz]
14:11:59 [francois]
Giuseppe: About use cases, people will have to check mapping to requirements.
14:12:01 [giuseppe]
14:12:04 [francois]
ack JanL
14:12:35 [francois]
Jan: the doc includes links to the original issue and use cases.
14:13:06 [francois]
... and copies the text to the original issue.
14:13:40 [francois]
... Do you want us to update the initial text or do you plan to remove this "Original Proposal" link afterwards?
14:13:50 [francois]
Giuseppe: I plan to remove the links afterwards.
14:14:20 [francois]
... Email discussions should be good to update text in use cases.
14:14:28 [giuseppe]
14:14:31 [francois]
ack francois
14:17:59 [francois]
francois: @@@on requirements that would better be addressed at "conforming specifications"
14:18:03 [francois]
zakim, mute me
14:18:03 [Zakim]
francois should now be muted
14:18:19 [francois]
Giuseppe: Got it, ok with the approach?
14:18:45 [francois]
Kaz: yes, useful to add, could perhaps be done in the working group that takes the requirements spec.
14:19:08 [francois]
... Also mention the working group that is likely to take on the work.
14:19:20 [francois]
... Francois comment is good but too advanced, I think.
14:19:34 [francois]
... We don't really need that clarification for this requirements document.
14:19:51 [francois]
Giuseppe: It's an easy change to do, and I'm fine with it.
14:19:57 [kaz]
ack k
14:19:58 [francois]
... Any other comment?
14:20:05 [francois]
[none heard]
14:20:23 [francois]
Topic: Propose text to expand ISSUE-26 and ISSUE-28 to address Jan's comment (ACTION-69)
14:20:27 [francois]
14:20:27 [trackbot]
ACTION-69 -- Russell Berkoff to propose text to expand ISSUE-26 and ISSUE-28 to address Jan's comment -- due 2011-08-16 -- OPEN
14:20:27 [trackbot]
14:20:37 [francois]
Jan: it looks perfect. Very good addition.
14:20:50 [francois]
... Question is what do I do with the initial text?
14:21:13 [francois]
Giuseppe: I'll deal with it. So we can close the issues and I'll merge the text Russell proposed in the Requirements document.
14:21:45 [francois]
ACTION: Giuseppe to update text of ISSUE-26 and ISSUE-28 based with text proposed by Russell in ACTION-69
14:21:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-71 - Update text of ISSUE-26 and ISSUE-28 based with text proposed by Russell in ACTION-69 [on Giuseppe Pascale - due 2011-08-23].
14:21:51 [francois]
close ACTION-69
14:21:51 [trackbot]
ACTION-69 Propose text to expand ISSUE-26 and ISSUE-28 to address Jan's comment closed
14:21:58 [francois]
close ISSUE-26
14:21:58 [trackbot]
ISSUE-26 Home Network Enabled User Agent - Network Media Player closed
14:22:01 [francois]
close ISSUE-28
14:22:01 [trackbot]
ISSUE-28 Home Network Enabled User-Agent - Network Media Controller closed
14:22:17 [francois]
Topic: See if ISSUE-14 and ISSUE-30 can be merged (ACTION-66)
14:22:28 [francois]
14:22:28 [trackbot]
ACTION-66 -- Russell Berkoff to see if ISSUE-14 and ISSUE-30 can be merged -- due 2011-08-09 -- OPEN
14:22:28 [trackbot]
14:22:51 [francois]
Russell: ISSUE-14 is on services not necessarily connected to a target in my view.
14:23:24 [francois]
... whereas ISSUE-30 is really about support of devices and then services as a means to change the state of the device.
14:23:33 [francois]
... I tried to give examples of differences in my email.
14:24:31 [francois]
Giuseppe: My impression from the description of ISSUE-14 is that it's not particularly either stateless or stateful, so I would think your use case is included here.
14:24:54 [francois]
Russell: ISSUE-14 does not have a strong notion of discovering a device, rather a notion of discovering a service.
14:25:12 [francois]
... whereas ISSUE-30 is more bound to a device, and then discovery of services on that device.
14:25:45 [francois]
Giuseppe: I would be fine to keep ISSUE-30 in as a way to clarify what use cases we're trying to cover, even though I think it's pretty generic.
14:26:00 [francois]
... It will probably generate the same requirements though.
14:26:11 [francois]
14:26:46 [francois]
Bob: I agree with you Giuseppe. The distinction between discovering devices and discovering services on devices would generate the same requirements.
14:26:48 [francois]
14:27:53 [francois]
Giuseppe: I would like to improve the use case that is in. Could you perhaps suggest a better wording of use case 1?
14:28:05 [francois]
... Wait, I was not looking at the right issue.
14:28:28 [francois]
... I believe the action was mis-recorded, it's ISSUE-4, not ISSUE-14.
14:28:41 [francois]
... So U1 in the requirements document.
14:28:55 [francois]
... We can probably extend the use case a little bit, could you look into it?
14:29:02 [francois]
Russell: OK, I'll have a look.
14:29:12 [Zakim]
14:29:27 [Zakim]
14:29:40 [giuseppe]
14:29:42 [francois]
Giuseppe: Conclusion is to look at U1 for ISSUE-4 and propose text if it's not enough.
14:29:57 [kaz]
zakim, ??P25 is Bob
14:29:57 [Zakim]
+Bob; got it
14:29:58 [francois]
zakim, ??P25 is Bob_Lund
14:29:59 [Zakim]
I already had ??P25 as Bob, francois
14:30:24 [francois]
Giuseppe: We'll close action and issue next week.
14:30:52 [francois]
Topic: Comments on Home Network Enabled User-Agent use cases
14:31:04 [francois]
zakim, who is noisy?
14:31:14 [Zakim]
francois, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bob (56%)
14:31:18 [francois]
Topic: Missing HNTF Deliverables
14:31:37 [giuseppe]
14:32:05 [francois]
Giuseppe: One is gap. That's covered with use cases and requirements document.
14:32:23 [francois]
... Another item is to categorize all the use cases/requirements.
14:32:40 [francois]
... I'd be happy to hear your opinions on this.
14:33:03 [francois]
... If they are equally important, we can skip this categorisation phase.
14:33:50 [francois]
... Looking at the different options we have in the charter. [going through the list].
14:34:20 [MattH]
14:34:36 [francois]
... I need input from the group here.
14:34:54 [giuseppe]
14:34:55 [francois]
... i.e. shoot for option 6, with liaisons to some groups perhaps.
14:35:39 [Zakim]
14:35:45 [francois]
Matt: We already know that DAP is to take device discovery. [lots of echo]. I would suggest that's a main chunk of what we're trying to achieve, so moving to there sounds good.
14:36:15 [francois]
Giuseppe: Right, that's exactly the kind of input I'm looking for, so we can propose recommendations to W3C Director.
14:36:23 [Clarke]
14:36:58 [MattH]
14:37:14 [francois]
Giuseppe: It seems a good idea to start with the DAP group since it's already listed in the new charter, and then check from there what needs to be defined on top of that later on.
14:37:33 [francois]
ack me
14:37:43 [kaz]
14:38:27 [francois]
Bob: In order for the result of the work to be consistent, it may make sense to put all our requirements into one working group.
14:38:39 [francois]
Giuseppe: I'm not sure if it's the best thing to do.
14:39:08 [francois]
... If requirements on Media Pipeline TF impact on the video, perhaps the HTML WG is better for that.
14:39:28 [francois]
... But some of our requirements, we may suggest to have another WG handle them.
14:39:52 [francois]
Bob: How do you maintain consistency if work is carried on in different groups?
14:39:55 [francois]
14:40:02 [francois]
ack Clarke
14:40:03 [francois]
ack francois
14:40:12 [Clarke]
That was Clarke talking, not Bob
14:40:29 [kaz]
s/Bob: In/Clarke: In/
14:40:35 [Clarke]
14:40:39 [kaz]
s/Bob: How/Clarke: How/
14:41:18 [kaz]
14:41:32 [francois]
Francois: @@W3C Process is meant to address this.
14:43:08 [francois]
Giuseppe: yes, and too many deliverables or too broad a scope may hamper the progress of a group.
14:43:38 [francois]
... for the Media Pipeline TF, it seems more focused on extensions to the video tag, so HTML WG sounds the right place for discussions.
14:43:57 [francois]
Francois: yes, but not necessarily, it could be done in a separate WG.
14:44:08 [francois]
[scribe missed last exchange]
14:44:45 [Clarke]
My point was that if anyone is concerned about alignment between working groups they should participate in both working groups.
14:45:04 [francois]
Giuseppe: On the WG part, I would propose to give the document as it is to DAP, as it seems to be matching their charter.
14:45:16 [francois]
ack me
14:46:05 [kaz]
14:46:16 [francois]
... When it comes to categorize use cases/requirements, I would say it falls in the category "new requirements for a WG", so basically we're good.
14:46:25 [francois]
... That's my proposal.
14:46:40 [francois]
... Feel free to comment. The priority discussion is still open.
14:46:49 [kaz]
q+ bob
14:46:53 [kaz]
ack b
14:47:17 [francois]
Bob: I have a suggestion on priorities. Set of requirements that represent the minimal amount of work you'd need to do to enable scenarios.
14:47:44 [francois]
... That would create a mandatory set of requirements, and a "larger" set of requirements, leading to an easy distinction.
14:47:53 [francois]
Giuseppe: yes, sounds like a good approach.
14:47:56 [francois]
zakim, mute me
14:47:56 [Zakim]
francois should now be muted
14:48:32 [francois]
Giuseppe: Some of the requirements may require more investigation, such as migration scenarios for instance, others may be easier to do. I'm fine with your distinction.
14:48:55 [francois]
14:49:24 [francois]
Clarke: we could ask someone to volunteer to take a first stab.
14:49:25 [francois]
14:49:43 [francois]
... s/someone/a few people/
14:50:00 [francois]
Clarke: to have something to start from and see if adjustment is needed.
14:50:24 [kaz]
14:50:26 [francois]
Giuseppe: Yes, I'd like to ask people here to categorize the requirements, so we can review that next week.
14:50:30 [kaz]
zakim, unmute me
14:50:30 [Zakim]
Kazuyuki should no longer be muted
14:50:34 [francois]
... Fine with everybody?
14:50:41 [francois]
[nodding "heard"]
14:51:00 [francois]
Kaz: Question about relationship with RFC2119.
14:51:11 [francois]
... First priority is MUST statements, right?
14:51:32 [francois]
Giuseppe: I was more thinking about a time schedule rather than MUST/SHOULD.
14:51:48 [kaz]
ack k
14:52:23 [francois]
... We need base functionality to enable basic home networking scenarios, then more to build on top of it.
14:52:51 [francois]
Kaz: Yes, it could be done later, fine to proceed with priority in the TF.
14:53:17 [francois]
Giuseppe: I think these are two different things, actually, so I would proceed with priorities even in the final report.
14:54:11 [giuseppe]
14:54:12 [francois]
... Please send me (or to the mailing-list) a list of which requirements should be in which category, and I'll make a summary next week for discussion.
14:54:33 [francois]
Topic: Comment on Home Network Enabled User-Agent use cases
14:55:54 [francois]
[Giuseppe and Russell about status of email exchanges]
14:56:30 [giuseppe]
"Provide a mean for applications to control some of the parameters that may be needed to be expose to support well-established home network protocols. A more detailed analysis is needed to identify such parameters and a way to specify them in a transport agnostic way"
14:57:57 [francois]
Giuseppe: we need to identify requirements, we cannot be too vague. My suggestion would be to look at precise requirements so that a WG can action these requirements.
14:58:36 [francois]
... We could phrase as "we've identified a gap here on transport headers, and the WG should look into these"
14:58:50 [francois]
Russell: It's a fairly broad topic, so simple requirements might help.
14:59:44 [francois]
Giuseppe: It wasn't clear to me what the sentence covered.
15:00:01 [francois]
Russell: It used to say DLNA, but there was a request to remove mentions of DLNA.
15:00:10 [francois]
Giuseppe: but the use case is not about DLNA.
15:00:20 [francois]
... I'm not suggesting to change the meaning, merely to clarify the requirement.
15:01:03 [francois]
Russell: The point of the response was that the headers provide info for the user-agent, the application and playback engine.
15:01:13 [francois]
15:01:37 [Zakim]
15:02:12 [francois]
Giuseppe: Again, I'm not suggesting to change the meaning, but to clarify and point the WG to that saying it needs to be addressed.
15:02:23 [francois]
... Probably easier if you reply on the actual text.
15:02:24 [francois]
15:02:34 [francois]
... Same for the other two points.
15:02:44 [francois]
... Let's conclude on the mailing-list.
15:03:11 [francois]
Russell: How do people in the TF feel about compatibility forward or backward?
15:03:25 [francois]
Clarke: Could you provide examples?
15:03:46 [francois]
Russell: Dealing with older user-agents, for instance.
15:04:14 [francois]
Clarke: sounds like a core architectural design point.
15:04:29 [Clarke]
I think that was Jan, not Clarke
15:04:37 [francois]
Giuseppe: I don't think it's part of a spec, more a point for the community to check how they can support the feature in old browsers.
15:04:46 [francois]
s/Clarke: Could/Jan: Could/
15:04:53 [francois]
s/Clarke: sound/Jan: sound/
15:05:14 [francois]
Russell: If people feel this way, ok to dropping.
15:05:18 [Zakim]
15:05:28 [francois]
[scribe missed precise comments because of echo]
15:05:43 [Zakim]
15:05:43 [francois]
Giuseppe: ok, running out of time, closing call now. Have a good day!
15:05:44 [Zakim]
15:05:45 [Zakim]
15:05:45 [Zakim]
15:05:46 [Zakim]
15:05:47 [Zakim]
15:05:50 [francois]
[Call adjourned]
15:05:50 [kaz]
[ btw, some clarification for Clarke's concern: 1. we should not invent "wheels" again, 2. we have Hypertext Coordination Group formed by WG/IG Chairs for inter-group coordination, 3 if needed we could consider some meta mechanism like SMIL, RDF and MMI to integrate several specifications consistently ]
15:05:59 [Zakim]
15:06:04 [dcorvoysier]
15:06:11 [MattH]
MattH has left #webtv
15:06:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kaz
15:11:00 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, David_Corvoysier, in UW_WebTVIG(Home Net)10:00AM
15:11:02 [Zakim]
UW_WebTVIG(Home Net)10:00AM has ended
15:11:06 [Zakim]
Attendees were rberkoff, Kazuyuki, giuseppe, MattH, francois, Clarke, David_Corvoysier, JanL, Tatsuya_Igarashi, +1.303.503.aaaa, Bob_Lund, +, Richard_Bardini, Bob
15:11:32 [francois]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:11:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate francois
15:15:09 [giuseppe]
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