IRC log of webtv on 2011-08-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:57:55 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
13:57:57 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:57:57 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #webtv
13:57:59 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
13:58:00 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:58:00 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web and TV Interest Group Teleconference
13:58:00 [trackbot]
Date: 09 August 2011
13:58:04 [francois]
zakim, what conferences?
13:58:07 [Zakim]
I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM, Team_(pr-firm)13:49Z active
13:58:08 [Zakim]
also scheduled at this time are XML_(TAG TF)10:00AM, VB_VBWG()10:00AM, TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM, Team_(RevCadence)9:00AM, Team_(MEET)10:00AM, UW_WebTVIG(Home Net)10:00AM,
13:58:11 [Zakim]
... WS_SOAP-JM()10:00AM, MWI_BPWG()9:30AM, IA_Team()10:00AM, WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)9:00AM, T&S_XMLSEC()10:00AM
13:58:14 [francois]
zakim, this will be UW_WebTVIG
13:58:16 [Zakim]
ok, francois; I see UW_WebTVIG(Home Net)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:58:22 [francois]
Chair: Giuseppe
13:58:56 [igarashi]
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13:59:40 [JanL]
JanL has joined #webtv
13:59:44 [Zakim]
UW_WebTVIG(Home Net)10:00AM has now started
13:59:47 [Zakim]
+ +1.760.705.aaaa
13:59:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.317.721.aabb
13:59:51 [Zakim]
14:00:10 [Zakim]
+ +1.703.234.aacc
14:00:18 [francois]
zakim, aabb is me
14:00:18 [Zakim]
+francois; got it
14:00:26 [giuseppe]
zakim, P8 is me
14:00:26 [Zakim]
sorry, giuseppe, I do not recognize a party named 'P8'
14:00:30 [giuseppe]
zakim, ??P8 is me
14:00:30 [Zakim]
+giuseppe; got it
14:00:52 [rberkoff]
rberkoff has joined #webtv
14:00:55 [Zakim]
14:01:02 [Zakim]
14:01:08 [MattH]
Zakim, P19 is MattH
14:01:08 [Zakim]
sorry, MattH, I do not recognize a party named 'P19'
14:01:13 [MattH]
Zakim, ??P19 is MattH
14:01:13 [Zakim]
+MattH; got it
14:01:48 [francois]
zakim, aacc is Jerry
14:01:51 [Zakim]
+Jerry; got it
14:02:02 [francois]
zakim, who is on the call?
14:02:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see giuseppe, +1.760.705.aaaa, francois, Jerry, MattH, ??P17
14:02:13 [aizu]
aizu has joined #webtv
14:03:05 [JanL]
what is conf code?
14:03:22 [Zakim]
14:03:24 [francois]
zakim, aaaa is rberkoff
14:03:24 [Zakim]
+rberkoff; got it
14:04:05 [JanL]
found it, 93288
14:04:18 [Zakim]
+ +
14:04:54 [francois]
zakim, aadd is JanL
14:04:55 [Zakim]
+JanL; got it
14:05:06 [francois]
zakim, who is on the call?
14:05:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see giuseppe, rberkoff, francois, Jerry, MattH, ??P17, ??P22, JanL
14:05:36 [giuseppe]
14:05:41 [narm_gadiraju]
narm_gadiraju has joined #webtv
14:05:50 [francois]
zakim, ??P22 is aizu
14:05:50 [Zakim]
+aizu; got it
14:05:57 [francois]
scribe: francois
14:06:09 [francois]
giuseppe: didn't have time to update tracker but Wiki is updated.
14:06:17 [igarashi]
zakim, ??p17 is me
14:06:17 [Zakim]
+igarashi; got it
14:06:36 [francois]
Topic: Web and Device Interworking (ISSUE-16)
14:06:58 [francois]
Jan: In my latest email, I'm proposing how the merge with issue 17 (I think) may happen.
14:07:07 [francois]
... Bullets 2 and 3 are already covered.
14:07:20 [francois]
... Bullet 1 on checking capabilities, I don't believe it's covered.
14:07:37 [francois]
... My suggestion is to update ISSUE-28 with an additional bullet in the lines of what's in the email.
14:07:41 [francois]
14:07:41 [trackbot]
ISSUE-28 -- Home Network Enabled User-Agent - Network Media Controller -- open
14:07:41 [trackbot]
14:07:48 [Zakim]
14:08:01 [aizu]
Zakim, ??P41 is me
14:08:01 [Zakim]
+aizu; got it
14:08:21 [francois]
Jan: Other comment is on ISSUE-26.
14:08:27 [Zakim]
+ +1.503.712.aaee
14:08:31 [francois]
-> Jan's email on ISSUE-16 and ISSUE-26
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14:09:33 [francois]
Giuseppe: for issue 28, you can have a look directly at the requirements document.
14:09:35 [francois]
zakim, mute me
14:09:35 [Zakim]
francois should now be muted
14:10:01 [francois]
Russel: I have no objection, I was looking at the scenario here.
14:10:23 [francois]
14:10:55 [francois]
Jan: I think most of the issues in the use case of ISSUE-16 are covered. Russell, I think you did a great job here. What's missing is bullet 1.
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14:11:17 [Jerry]
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14:11:27 [francois]
... [explanations on bullet 1]
14:11:53 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.356.aaff
14:12:37 [francois]
Russell: It's really the case of a Web application being able to query the capabilities for Media Player characteristics.
14:13:07 [francois]
Jan: We didn't necessarily discover locally in our prototype. We could put a "may".
14:13:25 [francois]
... We can use an example, in that case an example that we put in our issue 16.
14:14:30 [francois]
... There are a couple of configurations to discover the capabilities of remote devices.
14:14:44 [francois]
Russell: but the capabilities of the media server are not relevant.
14:14:52 [francois]
Jan: it would be the renderer, I agree.
14:15:18 [francois]
Russell: two answers. For the platform the app is running on, you would normally have an API to determine the capabilities of the platform you're running on.
14:15:42 [francois]
Giuseppe: Isn't that already included in another use case?
14:15:55 [giuseppe]
14:15:56 [francois]
... "Application Discovering a Service"
14:16:02 [francois]
... More generic.
14:16:19 [francois]
... What you're discussing here could be another bullet to refine what we have here.
14:16:44 [francois]
... We could clarify that this may enable to ask capabilities for the service.
14:17:03 [francois]
Jan: I don't know if there are for example players that advertise their capabilities.
14:17:34 [francois]
... The nature of the issue is more related to UPnP model. I didn't think the nature of that was on this generic capabilities list.
14:17:38 [giuseppe]
14:18:08 [francois]
... I didn't think the other issue covers advertising of capabilities.
14:18:59 [francois]
... I'm asking that ISSUE-28 have an additional bullet explaining filtering based on the capabilities of the renderer.
14:19:19 [francois]
... If you refer to ISSUE-14, we can expand it to explain that capabilities need to be advertised.
14:19:36 [Zakim]
14:19:56 [francois]
Russell: You suggest updating the Home Network Media Player use case and the 3-box use case (ISSUE-26 and ISSUE-28).
14:20:06 [francois]
... to include discovery of capabilities.
14:20:14 [Zakim]
14:20:22 [francois]
Jan: do you think ISSUE-14 should be expanded as well?
14:20:53 [francois]
Giuseppe: The requirements would probably the same. We don't necessarily need to find use cases that do not have overlap.
14:20:55 [Zakim]
14:21:26 [Zakim]
14:22:00 [francois]
Giuseppe: Summary. Expand ISSUE-26 and ISSUE-28.
14:22:16 [francois]
Jan: my email can be used as starting point. I'll wait for Russell to communicate back with proposed text.
14:22:21 [francois]
Russell: ok, I'll do that.
14:22:41 [francois]
ACTION: Russell to propose text to expand ISSUE-26 and ISSUE-28 to address Jan's comment
14:22:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-69 - Propose text to expand ISSUE-26 and ISSUE-28 to address Jan's comment [on Russell Berkoff - due 2011-08-16].
14:23:02 [francois]
Giuseppe: Also, there are some use cases that are missing requirements right now.
14:23:32 [francois]
... Now that they are all in the same page (once we have close Jan's issue), it's good to look at the document and see if there are use cases that can be merged or adjusted.
14:24:13 [francois]
Topic: ISSUE-30
14:24:20 [francois]
Giuseppe: I think we agreed to close it, right?
14:24:39 [francois]
Russell: yes, but I'd like another week to make sure that the use case is mapped appropriately.
14:25:00 [francois]
Giuseppe: if you feel that can be accomplished modifying an existing use case, that's an option.
14:25:11 [francois]
... OK, so we'll keep it open for this week and discuss it next week
14:26:16 [francois]
Russell: I updated the wiki based on last week's discussions (to remove DLNA-specific stuff).
14:26:22 [francois]
Giuseppe: thanks, I'll have a look.
14:26:28 [francois]
Topic: Next Steps
14:26:37 [francois]
Giuseppe: we're basically done with use cases.
14:26:49 [francois]
... Next step is to refine requirements during August.
14:27:00 [francois]
... And then propose that to the group.
14:27:22 [francois]
... Discussion on priorities and next steps is important.
14:27:41 [francois]
... One issue that remains is the one on security
14:27:44 [giuseppe]
14:27:48 [francois]
Topic: Security (ISSUE-3)
14:28:01 [francois]
Giuseppe: I'm not sure if you had a chance to look at it.
14:28:16 [francois]
... There are two ways to merge it with requirements document. One is as a use case.
14:28:27 [francois]
... The other is to have a dedicated section on security. Sounds more appropriate.
14:28:37 [francois]
... Any comment or preference?
14:29:06 [francois]
Jan: Could you touch on some of the issues and then go on the possible solutions?
14:29:25 [francois]
... Not entirely clear what the solutions are (device pairing?)
14:29:46 [francois]
Giuseppe: The idea is just to highlight the security and privacy issues.
14:30:20 [francois]
Jan: My concern is that I'm trying to understand the two solutions.
14:31:07 [francois]
Giuseppe: [going through the security doc]. First of all, the list of security.
14:31:33 [igarashi_]
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14:31:36 [francois]
... There are more security issues. One could be fingerprinting for instance.
14:31:55 [francois]
... You need to know the trust level of an application.
14:32:07 [francois]
... I list here the different options.
14:32:24 [francois]
... certificate, modal dialog, white list provided by the platform.
14:33:13 [francois]
Jan: for certificate, do you mean device manufacturers provide certificates? Can we expand on that?
14:33:44 [francois]
... For number 2, I presume that's a user-agent doing this. I'd like more details on that.
14:34:04 [francois]
Giuseppe: Understood. I'll try to be more verbose on these options, adding diagrams if possible.
14:34:43 [francois]
Jan: It's a question of how you manage the certificate. Eventually, when you grant access, where is that managed? If the application runs and dies, does it remember? Do you need to install a widget?
14:35:00 [francois]
... These are the sort of questions I have.
14:35:18 [francois]
14:35:51 [francois]
Giuseppe: ok, I'll expand on this. The doc continues with different trust level options.
14:36:30 [francois]
Jan: Can one take one step back and say that local content should only be accessible from local devices and say that device manufacturers are responsible to ensure that this is the case.
14:36:41 [igarashi_]
14:37:41 [francois]
Russell: It's pretty hard to prevent an application from doing something wrong once installed.
14:37:48 [francois]
Jan: requirements on the user agent
14:39:20 [francois]
[more discussion on trust levels options]
14:40:28 [francois]
Jan: The solution will never come to a solution in this group, but we could list a few requirements.
14:40:44 [francois]
Giuseppe: sure, we don't have to define the solutions here.
14:41:05 [francois]
... I don't know if you had time to follow discussions on service discovery in the DAP group.
14:41:15 [francois]
... There's a proposal under discussion.
14:41:22 [francois]
14:41:41 [francois]
ack francois
14:43:47 [francois]
zakim, mute me
14:43:47 [Zakim]
francois should now be muted
14:43:56 [francois]
francois: @@
14:44:00 [francois]
ack igarashi_
14:45:14 [francois]
Igarashi-San: I have comment on home network. Very confusing terminology. These use cases should not be limited to home network. Even with DLNA, there are devices that can be outside the home.
14:45:47 [francois]
... I suggest using local network instead of home network, or local IP network.
14:46:05 [francois]
Giuseppe: I think we use the term home network pretty much everywhere, would need to update the whole document.
14:47:17 [francois]
Igarashi-San: Jan mentioned managed/unmanaged. But Web applications can run on other types of network, e.g. 3G. The device may not be able to guarantee where the application runs.
14:47:27 [francois]
Russell: Is it at the same time or at different times?
14:48:11 [francois]
Igarashi-San: Manufacturers cannot guarantee that an application runs only on one type of network.
14:48:43 [francois]
Russell: when it comes to that gateway functionality. How does it work with applications?
14:49:07 [francois]
... Should we restrict the requirements to that use case to home networks only?
14:49:18 [francois]
zakim, who is making noise?
14:49:28 [Zakim]
francois, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: giuseppe (65%), JanL (45%)
14:49:29 [francois]
14:49:38 [Zakim]
14:49:42 [Zakim]
14:49:46 [francois]
s/Russell: when/Jan: when/
14:50:24 [francois]
Giuseppe: I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean that an application should not have access to anything else than local network?
14:50:37 [francois]
Jan: for the purpose of the requirements, we only need to look at the home network.
14:50:51 [francois]
... We don't need to worry about applications that are at the border.
14:51:03 [francois]
Giuseppe: I wouldn't restrict.
14:51:42 [francois]
... Applications that access data on both networks are important. It may be disabled by default.
14:51:57 [francois]
Jan: As you as you say "gateway", you include remote access.
14:52:10 [francois]
... If you do that, you open a whole list of problems.
14:52:20 [francois]
Giuseppe: ok, fine.
14:52:28 [Zakim]
14:52:40 [francois]
ack me
14:52:46 [francois]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:52:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see rberkoff, francois, MattH, JanL, aizu.a, +1.503.712.aaee, +1.408.356.aaff, Jerry, ??P17, ??P1
14:53:37 [francois]
zakim, aaff is Richard_Bardini
14:53:37 [Zakim]
+Richard_Bardini; got it
14:53:56 [francois]
zakim, ??P17 is Panu_Markkanen
14:53:57 [Zakim]
+Panu_Markkanen; got it
14:54:25 [francois]
zakim, ??P1 is Narm_Gadiraju
14:54:25 [Zakim]
+Narm_Gadiraju; got it
14:54:30 [francois]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:54:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see rberkoff, francois, MattH, JanL, aizu.a, +1.503.712.aaee, Richard_Bardini, Jerry, Panu_Markkanen, Narm_Gadiraju
14:54:52 [francois]
zakim, aaee is Tatsuya_Igarashi
14:54:52 [Zakim]
+Tatsuya_Igarashi; got it
14:55:41 [JanL]
giuseppe calle me
14:55:50 [JanL]
he says he lost network connection
14:55:57 [JanL]
so we should close the meeting
14:56:14 [JanL]
we can discuss for another 5 minutes if we want to conclude anything
14:56:22 [JanL]
otherwise we continue on the mailing list
14:56:38 [JanL]
comments on writing to improve the security issue
14:56:53 [Zakim]
14:56:54 [Zakim]
14:56:54 [Zakim]
14:56:55 [Zakim]
14:56:56 [Zakim]
14:56:57 [Zakim]
14:57:04 [Zakim]
14:57:31 [Zakim]
14:58:20 [francois]
s/@@/comment matches Jan's comment. I wouldn't go too deep into solutions. Important to highlight security and privacy issues, suggest directions without going too deep into solutions and if possible extract requirements/
14:58:43 [francois]
RRSAgent, list attendees
14:58:43 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendees', francois. Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:58:46 [francois]
Zakim, list attendees
14:58:46 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +1.760.705.aaaa, +1.317.721.aabb, +1.703.234.aacc, francois, giuseppe, MattH, Jerry, rberkoff, +, JanL, aizu, igarashi,
14:58:50 [Zakim]
... +1.503.712.aaee, +1.408.356.aaff, Richard_Bardini, Panu_Markkanen, Narm_Gadiraju, Tatsuya_Igarashi
14:58:53 [francois]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:58:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate francois
15:03:14 [MattH]
MattH has left #webtv
15:06:13 [giuseppe]
giuseppe has joined #webtv
15:06:27 [giuseppe]
hi, sorry I lost connection
15:08:24 [giuseppe]
15:08:24 [trackbot]
ISSUE-1 -- Test Issue - Please Ignore -- closed
15:08:24 [trackbot]
15:09:10 [giuseppe]
close ISSUE-20
15:09:10 [trackbot]
ISSUE-20 TV Querying and Control closed
15:09:53 [giuseppe]
close ISSUE-21
15:09:53 [trackbot]
ISSUE-21 Time synchronisation closed
15:10:02 [giuseppe]
close ISSUE-22
15:10:02 [trackbot]
ISSUE-22 Lip-sync Accuracy Time Synchronisation closed
15:10:12 [giuseppe]
close ISSUE-23
15:10:13 [trackbot]
ISSUE-23 UPnP/DLNA ecosystem support closed
15:10:41 [giuseppe]
close ISSUE-26
15:10:41 [trackbot]
ISSUE-26 Home Network Enabled User Agent - Network Media Player closed
15:10:50 [giuseppe]
close ISSUE-27
15:10:51 [trackbot]
ISSUE-27 Home Network Enabled User Agent - Network Media Server closed
15:10:53 [giuseppe]
close ISSUE-28
15:10:53 [trackbot]
ISSUE-28 Home Network Enabled User-Agent - Network Media Controller closed
15:11:11 [giuseppe]
close ISSUE-29
15:11:11 [trackbot]
ISSUE-29 Home Network Enabled User-Agent - Network Record Controller closed
15:12:04 [giuseppe]
close ACTION-41
15:12:04 [trackbot]
ACTION-41 Check ISSUE-20 in relation with ISSUE-4 and propose re-phrasing if needed. closed
15:29:21 [Zakim]
15:29:25 [panze]
panze has left #webtv
15:34:21 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, Panu_Markkanen, in UW_WebTVIG(Home Net)10:00AM
15:34:24 [Zakim]
UW_WebTVIG(Home Net)10:00AM has ended
15:34:28 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.760.705.aaaa, +1.317.721.aabb, +1.703.234.aacc, francois, giuseppe, MattH, Jerry, rberkoff, +, JanL, aizu, igarashi, +1.503.712.aaee,
15:34:30 [Zakim]
... +1.408.356.aaff, Richard_Bardini, Panu_Markkanen, Narm_Gadiraju, Tatsuya_Igarashi
17:22:36 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #webtv
17:46:28 [francois]
RRSAGent, bye
17:46:28 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
17:46:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Russell to propose text to expand ISSUE-26 and ISSUE-28 to address Jan's comment [1]
17:46:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in