15:50:22 RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf 15:50:22 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-rdb2rdf-irc 15:50:24 RRSAgent, make logs world 15:50:24 Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf 15:50:26 Zakim, this will be 7322733 15:50:26 ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes 15:50:27 Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference 15:50:27 Date: 09 August 2011 15:50:42 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Aug/0033.html 15:50:45 Chair: Michael 15:50:53 scribenick: mhausenblas 15:50:59 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:50:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas 15:51:05 RRSAgent, make logs publics 15:51:09 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:51:22 Zakim, this will be SW_RDB2RDF 15:51:22 ok, mhausenblas; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 9 minutes 15:51:32 regrets+ Ashok 15:52:36 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:52:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas 15:55:19 boris has joined #rdb2rdf 15:56:33 SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started 15:56:41 + +3539149aaaa 15:56:53 Zakim, aaaa is me 15:56:53 +mhausenblas; got it 15:57:03 present+ Michael 15:57:08 zakim, dial ivan-voip 15:57:08 ok, ivan; the call is being made 15:57:10 +Ivan 15:57:23 present+ Ivan 15:57:38 cygri has joined #rdb2rdf 15:57:43 dmcneil has joined #RDB2RDF 15:57:49 zakim, i'm with mhausenblas 15:57:49 +cygri; got it 15:58:28 present+ Richard 15:58:40 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:58:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas 15:59:28 juansequeda has joined #RDB2RDF 16:01:51 soeren has joined #RDB2RDF 16:02:08 + +1.314.394.aabb 16:02:22 Zakim, aabb is dmcneil 16:02:23 +dmcneil; got it 16:02:24 +??P1 16:02:27 nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF 16:02:30 present+ David 16:02:38 zakim, ??P1 is soeren 16:02:38 +soeren; got it 16:02:41 Zakim, nunolopes is with mhausenblas 16:02:41 +nunolopes; got it 16:02:46 present+ Soeren 16:02:51 present+ Nuno 16:03:07 zakim, boris is with mhausenblas 16:03:07 +boris; got it 16:03:46 + +575737aacc 16:03:46 present+ Boris 16:03:51 + +1.617.324.aadd 16:03:52 Zakim, who's here? 16:03:52 On the phone I see mhausenblas, Ivan, dmcneil, soeren, +575737aacc, +1.617.324.aadd 16:03:55 mhausenblas has cygri, nunolopes, boris 16:03:56 zakim, aacc is me 16:03:56 +juansequeda; got it 16:03:57 On IRC I see nunolopes, soeren, juansequeda, dmcneil, cygri, boris, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, iv_an_ru__, trackbot, betehess, ericP 16:04:14 Zakim, aadd is me 16:04:14 +ericP; got it 16:04:17 zakim, /me is me 16:04:17 sorry, cygri, I do not recognize a party named '/me' 16:04:18 Seema has joined #rdb2rdf 16:04:19 present+ Eric 16:04:25 + +1.603.897.aaee 16:04:30 present+ Juan 16:04:55 Souri has joined #rdb2rdf 16:04:58 Zakim, aaee is Souri 16:04:58 +Souri; got it 16:05:04 present+ Souri 16:05:13 Zakim, who's here? 16:05:13 On the phone I see mhausenblas, Ivan, dmcneil, soeren, juansequeda, ericP, Souri 16:05:15 mhausenblas has cygri, nunolopes, boris 16:05:16 On IRC I see Souri, Seema, nunolopes, soeren, juansequeda, dmcneil, cygri, boris, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, iv_an_ru__, trackbot, betehess, ericP 16:06:05 + +1.603.897.aaff 16:06:14 Zakim, aaff is Seema 16:06:14 +Seema; got it 16:06:20 present+ Seema 16:06:33 Zakim, who's here? 16:06:33 On the phone I see mhausenblas, Ivan, dmcneil, soeren, juansequeda, ericP, Souri, Seema 16:06:35 mhausenblas has cygri, nunolopes, boris 16:06:36 On IRC I see Souri, Seema, nunolopes, soeren, juansequeda, dmcneil, cygri, boris, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, iv_an_ru__, trackbot, betehess, ericP 16:07:04 Topic: Admin 16:07:10 PROPOSAL: Accept the minutes of last meeting http://www.w3.org/2011/08/02-rdb2rdf-minutes.html 16:07:20 +1 16:07:22 +1 16:07:30 RESOLUTION: Accept the minutes of last meeting http://www.w3.org/2011/08/02-rdb2rdf-minutes.html 16:07:40 Topic: Current actions 16:07:46 ACTION-149? 16:07:46 ACTION-149 -- Nuno Lopes to look into how SQL 2008 handles CAST of user-defined types and constructed types to string -- due 2011-08-09 -- OPEN 16:07:46 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/149 16:08:09 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Mapping_SQL_datatypes_to_XML_Schema_datatypes 16:08:10 Nuno: I've updated the Wiki page 16:09:03 Michael: Richard, do you need anything more or is this fine now what Nuno put together? 16:09:17 (Nuno explains details what he did ...) 16:09:30 close ACTION-149 16:09:31 ACTION-149 Look into how SQL 2008 handles CAST of user-defined types and constructed types to string closed 16:10:08 Richard: Haven't seen the update yet 16:10:35 ACTION: Richard to check http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Mapping_SQL_datatypes_to_XML_Schema_datatypes and let WG know if something more is need 16:10:35 Created ACTION-151 - Check http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Mapping_SQL_datatypes_to_XML_Schema_datatypes and let WG know if something more is need [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-08-16]. 16:10:47 ACTION-150? 16:10:47 ACTION-150 -- Richard Cyganiak to come up with a proposal for ISSUE-61 (entity ID look-up table) -- due 2011-08-09 -- OPEN 16:10:47 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/150 16:10:59 Richard: Working on a draft for a proposal 16:11:10 Marcelo has joined #rdb2rdf 16:11:14 ... will post it on the Wiki and share with WG 16:11:39 Michael: Once you've sent this out, Richard, feel free to close the action 16:11:49 Topic: Direct Mapping (DM) 16:11:59 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/directMapping/EGP 16:12:07 + +1.562.249.aagg 16:12:20 Zakim, aagg is Marcelo 16:12:20 +Marcelo; got it 16:12:24 present+ Marcelo 16:12:34 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:12:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas 16:13:02 Eric: I'm currently working on addressing the comments WG members have brought up so far 16:13:11 the EGP link above is not working for me 16:13:22 I get an XSLT stylesheet problem when trying to access the EGP 16:13:51 Eric: examples, formal notations 16:15:04 Souri: I've sent two DM-related proposals 16:15:07 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/directMapping/EGP.xml#notation 16:15:12 fixed 16:15:16 thanks! 16:17:26 My first proposal this morning for DM: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Aug/0053.html 16:17:29 Eric: main thing was to turn the Normative text into plain English 16:17:46 My second proposal this morning for DM: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Aug/0055.html 16:18:02 Michael: thanks a million, Souri! 16:19:50 Michael: Issues should be 'real' issues, that is raised in the tracker 16:22:32 ISSUE-63? 16:22:32 ISSUE-63 -- Normative expression of the Direct Mapping in Plain English -- open 16:22:32 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/63 16:23:03 +1 16:23:09 -1 16:23:31 PROPOSAL: To close ISSUE-63 with accepting http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/directMapping/EGP 16:23:39 +1 16:23:53 +1 16:23:54 +1 16:23:55 +1 16:23:55 +1 16:23:57 +1 16:24:17 +.5 16:24:31 +½ 16:24:39 RESOLUTION: To close ISSUE-63 with accepting http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/directMapping/EGP 16:24:43 +1 16:24:44 +ε 16:25:35 it may not be important, but what does "EGP" mean? 16:25:44 my initials 16:26:24 q+ 16:26:29 Eric: are we standardising the direct graph or the direct mapping 16:26:31 ack cygri 16:27:18 Richard: two questions - how is the doc called and what is the artefact we're standardising 16:27:32 ... direct mapping is what I got used to 16:27:37 ... for the document 16:27:51 ... but I'd like to see direct graph somehow defined cleanly 16:28:05 RRSAgent, draft, minutes 16:28:05 I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft, minutes', mhausenblas. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:28:09 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:28:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas 16:28:26 the output of a direct mapping is an RDF graph that represents the relational schema, and this RDF graph is also known has the Direct (RDF) graph 16:28:39 the direct mapping is how you produce the direct graph by any means necessary 16:28:41 Richard: maybe something like: DM is an algo taking an RDB as input and produces a direct graph 16:28:44 if the direct mapping were defined in terms of R2RML, then R2RML would define the graph 16:28:45 q+ 16:28:51 qck ericP 16:28:55 ack ericP 16:28:57 q? 16:29:26 Eric: seems awkward to say both (scribe unsure ??) 16:29:42 q+ 16:29:51 the way we use our equivalent of the direct mapping, is that we have an algorithm that produces a mapping 16:30:06 so it is the production of a "direct mapping", not a "direct graph" 16:30:07 q+ 16:30:14 ack ivan 16:30:15 q> 16:30:17 q? 16:30:50 Ivan: I agree with Michael that DM Editors can sort the DM vs. DG out themselves 16:31:31 Ivan: other comment - if I look at the two formal specs in Appendix they are more like graph not mapping 16:32:15 q- 16:32:46 Richard: I agree with Ivan 16:33:04 Ivan: we should focus on the other remaining issues 16:33:42 Michael: is there an issue for the URI stuff Ivan was referring to? 16:35:01 I'll raise two non-editorial issues: 1) current predicate IRI design cannot handle common cases AND 2) literal triple non-generation in the single-col foreign key case causes non-uniformity and need for unnecessary join with the parent table 16:35:20 issue-40? 16:35:21 ISSUE-40 -- Express Direct Mapping in terms of R2RML -- open 16:35:21 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/40 16:35:26 issue-42? 16:35:26 ISSUE-42 -- How is the direct mapping suppose to handle NULL values wrt Information Preserving -- open 16:35:26 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/42 16:35:48 Topic: ISSUE-40 16:35:49 q+ 16:35:57 ack ivan 16:36:30 Ivan: not sure if I totally understand the issue per se - might be underspecified 16:36:37 q+ 16:36:48 q+ 16:36:50 ack me 16:37:12 q+ 16:37:30 Michael: My understanding is that this is about externalising a DM 16:37:32 q? 16:37:42 ack juansequeda 16:37:50 Juan: I agree with Michael 16:38:12 q+ 16:38:16 q? 16:38:37 ack cygri 16:38:57 Richard: To Ivan - in good SQL impl you have the information schema 16:39:13 ... a separate schema that tells you what exists in the DB 16:40:15 Richard: R2RML + info schema is supported then you can impl. the DM in R2RML 16:40:27 q? 16:40:57 Richard: I think it *should* be possible, though might be complex 16:41:08 q+ to say that a r2rml representation of the direct mapping will allow the user to not have to start from a blank sheet 16:41:11 Richard: but I'm unsure if this has anything to do with the spec 16:41:15 q? 16:41:21 ack ivan 16:41:26 cygri: you may be able to write an r2rml mapping over the information schema to produce an r2rml mapping for the [working] schema 16:41:26 +q 16:41:44 Ivan: I agree with Richard and Michael - this has nothing to do with the spec 16:41:46 q? 16:42:07 ack juansequeda 16:42:07 juansequeda, you wanted to say that a r2rml representation of the direct mapping will allow the user to not have to start from a blank sheet 16:42:20 Juan: I'm fine with what Ivan suggested 16:42:26 i'd prefer to POSTPONE rather than CLOSE 16:42:37 Created ISSUE-64: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/64 16:42:48 ack dmcneil 16:43:11 PROPOSED: expressing DM in R2RML (ie, issue 40) is an implementation issue that should not be part of a specification (may be the topic of a separate Working Group Note) 16:43:30 David: When I raised the issue I didn't mean what you guys just discussed - only reusing the semantics 16:44:04 +1 close 16:44:46 PROPOSAL: Close ISSUE-40 - expressing DM in R2RML (ie, issue 40) is an implementation issue that should not be part of a specification (may be the topic of a separate Working Group Note) 16:45:18 PROPOSAL: Postpone ISSUE-40 - expressing DM in R2RML is an implementation issue that should not be part of a specification (but may be the topic of a separate Working Group Note) 16:45:38 +1 to postpone, then 16:45:55 +1 to close 16:46:13 +1 to postpone 16:47:12 +1 16:47:17 +1 16:47:20 +1 16:47:26 +1 16:47:27 +1 16:47:29 +1 16:47:35 +1 16:47:44 RESOLUTION: Postpone ISSUE-40 - expressing DM in R2RML is an implementation issue that should not be part of a specification (but may be the topic of a separate Working Group Note) 16:47:49 Created ISSUE-65: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/65 16:47:54 issue-42? 16:47:54 ISSUE-42 -- How is the direct mapping suppose to handle NULL values wrt Information Preserving -- open 16:47:54 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/42 16:47:55 Topic: ISSUE-42 16:50:13 Michael: I think one of the co-chairs whom I see every day in the mirror is a slacker 16:50:20 PROPSOAL: one of the co-chairs whom I see every day in the mirror is a slacker 16:50:32 -1 16:51:08 Topic: ISSUE-64 16:51:13 ISSUE-64? 16:51:13 ISSUE-64 -- Predicate IRI design for foreign key does not handle common cases where same column sequence may be used for multiple foreign key constraints -- raised 16:51:13 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/64 16:51:33 (Souri explains the issue) 16:51:55 q+ 16:51:56 q+ 16:52:08 ack ericP 16:52:19 Eric: the schema has a correlation already for this 16:52:24 ... knows the target 16:52:36 q? 16:53:08 Souri: consider just one table with an ID 16:53:15 ... firstname and lastname 16:53:23 ... can define FK constrains 16:53:31 gotcha 16:53:36 (scribe lost) 16:54:28 proposed design: 16:55:40 (Souri explains how Oracle handles it) 16:56:00 q? 16:56:12 ack juansequeda 16:56:32 Juan: I agree with Souri 16:56:36 note, it also requires the referenced table name 16:56:51 q+ 16:56:57 ACTION: Juan to figure out and solution with Souri to address ISSUE-64 16:56:58 Created ACTION-152 - Figure out and solution with Souri to address ISSUE-64 [on Juan Sequeda - due 2011-08-16]. 16:57:04 ack ericP 16:57:05 q? 16:57:55 q+ 16:58:12 ack Souri 16:58:48 Topic: ISSUE-65 16:58:51 ISSUE-65? 16:58:51 ISSUE-65 -- For uniformity and performance, "literal" triples must be always generated for each child table column in a foreign key -- open 16:58:51 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/65 16:59:05 Souri: very simple issue 16:59:18 s{ .}{ .} 16:59:26 Souri: in sec 2.1 ... 17:00:11 RRSAgent, draft minutes 17:00:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas 17:00:27 Marcelo: will be a redundant mapping then 17:01:25 q+ 17:01:37 ACTION: Marcelo to draft a solution for ISSUE-65 and send out to WG 17:01:38 Created ACTION-153 - Draft a solution for ISSUE-65 and send out to WG [on Marcelo Arenas - due 2011-08-16]. 17:01:41 q- 17:01:41 q? 17:02:31 -Seema 17:02:32 -Souri 17:02:33 -dmcneil 17:02:39 -Ivan 17:02:47 [meeting adjourned] 17:02:47 -soeren 17:02:52 RRSAgent, draft minutes 17:02:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas 17:03:54 ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 17:03:58 RRSAgent, draft minutes 17:03:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas 17:04:17 trackbot, end telecon 17:04:17 Zakim, list attendees 17:04:17 As of this point the attendees have been +3539149aaaa, mhausenblas, Ivan, cygri, +1.314.394.aabb, dmcneil, soeren, nunolopes, boris, +575737aacc, +1.617.324.aadd, juansequeda, 17:04:18 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 17:04:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-rdb2rdf-minutes.html trackbot 17:04:19 RRSAgent, bye 17:04:19 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-rdb2rdf-actions.rdf : 17:04:19 ACTION: Richard to check http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Mapping_SQL_datatypes_to_XML_Schema_datatypes and let WG know if something more is need [1] 17:04:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-10-35 17:04:19 ACTION: Juan to figure out and solution with Souri to address ISSUE-64 [2] 17:04:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-56-57 17:04:19 ACTION: Marcelo to draft a solution for ISSUE-65 and send out to WG [3] 17:04:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/09-rdb2rdf-irc#T17-01-37 17:04:21 ... ericP, +1.603.897.aaee, Souri, +1.603.897.aaff, Seema, +1.562.249.aagg, Marcelo