13:55:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lld
13:55:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-lld-irc
13:55:15 <antoine> rrsagent, bookmark
13:55:15 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-lld-irc#T13-55-15
13:55:16 <tbaker> tbaker has joined #lld
13:55:23 <antoine> zakim, this will be lld
13:55:23 <Zakim> ok, antoine, I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM already started
13:55:31 <antoine> Meeting:   LLD XG
13:55:41 <antoine> Chair:     Tom
13:55:59 <antoine> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Aug/0004.html
13:56:24 <antoine> Regrets: Kim, Lars, Ray, Kevin
13:56:26 <jneubert> jneubert has joined #lld
13:57:16 <antoine> Previous: 2011-07-21 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/07/21-lld-minutes.html
13:57:33 <Zakim> +??P5
13:57:35 <antoine> rrsagent, please make record public
13:57:49 <tbaker> zakim, ??p5 is tbaker
13:57:49 <Zakim> +tbaker; got it
13:58:00 <antoine> rrsagent, please draft minutes
13:58:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html antoine
13:58:09 <michaelp> michaelp has joined #lld
13:58:42 <kai> kai has joined #lld
13:59:25 <Zakim> + +1.614.764.aaaa
13:59:41 <jeff_> jeff_ has joined #lld
13:59:46 <antoine> zakim, aaaa is michaelp
13:59:46 <Zakim> +michaelp; got it
13:59:55 <Zakim> + +33.1.44.78.aabb
13:59:59 <marcia> marcia has joined #lld
14:00:02 <emma> zakim, aabb is me
14:00:02 <Zakim> +emma; got it
14:00:14 <kcoyle> kcoyle has joined #lld
14:00:19 <Zakim> +michaelp.a
14:00:32 <GordonD> GordonD has joined #lld
14:00:37 <antoine> zakim, michaelp.a is jeff_
14:00:37 <Zakim> +jeff_; got it
14:00:46 <monica> monica has joined #lld
14:00:52 <Zakim> +??P18
14:01:03 <antoine> zakim, ??P18 is kcoyle
14:01:03 <Zakim> +kcoyle; got it
14:01:20 <Zakim> +??P17
14:01:33 <antoine> zakim, ??P17 is kei
14:01:34 <kai> zakim, ??P17 is me.
14:01:39 <antoine> zakim, kei is kai
14:01:40 <Zakim> +kei; got it
14:01:43 <tbaker> zakim, who is making noise?
14:01:45 <Zakim> I already had ??P17 as kei, kai
14:01:47 <antoine> zakim, kei is really kai
14:01:50 <Zakim> +kai; got it
14:02:00 <Zakim> + +1.330.672.aacc
14:02:03 <Zakim> sorry, antoine, I do not recognize a party named 'kei'
14:02:06 <antoine> zakim, aacc is marcia
14:02:08 <Zakim> + +49.4.aadd
14:02:15 <Zakim> tbaker, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P4 (44%), tbaker (3%), jeff_ (5%), ??P22 (6%)
14:02:15 <jeff_> zakim, mute me
14:02:16 <antoine> zakim, aadd is jneubert
14:02:24 <Zakim> +??P25
14:02:28 <Zakim> +marcia; got it
14:02:31 <Zakim> jeff_ should now be muted
14:02:33 <Zakim> +jneubert; got it
14:02:37 <antoine> zakim, ??P25 is GordonD
14:02:42 <antoine> zakim, who is here?
14:02:52 <Zakim> +GordonD; got it
14:02:59 <Zakim> + +44.194.346.aaee
14:03:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, tbaker, michaelp (muted), emma, jeff_ (muted), kcoyle, kai, marcia, jneubert, GordonD, +44.194.346.aaee
14:03:25 <monica> zakim, aaee is me
14:03:26 <antoine> zakim, ??P4 is me
14:03:38 <Zakim> -jneubert
14:03:57 <Zakim> +monica; got it
14:04:00 <Zakim> +antoine; got it
14:04:17 <Zakim> +jneubert
14:04:23 <Zakim> + +1.763.463.aaff
14:04:24 <jodi> jodi has joined #LLD
14:04:30 <antoine> zakim, aaff is jodi
14:04:34 <jneubert> zakim, mute me
14:04:34 <jodi> t
14:04:40 <jodi> thanks. antoine!
14:04:46 <Zakim> +jodi; got it
14:04:48 <Zakim> jneubert should now be muted
14:05:01 <tbaker> zakim, who is here?
14:05:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see antoine, tbaker, michaelp (muted), emma, jeff_ (muted), kcoyle, kai, marcia, GordonD (muted), monica, jneubert (muted), jodi
14:05:12 <jodi> means that I'm trying to eat and type at the same time :)
14:06:01 <tbaker> Scribe: Marcia
14:06:02 <Zakim> +[LC]
14:06:05 <edsu> zoia, [LC] is edsu
14:06:06 <tbaker> scribenick: marcia
14:06:23 <marcia> Topic: ADMIN
14:06:33 <marcia> Minutes of previous telecons    PROPOSED: To accept
14:06:45 <marcia> RESOLUTION: approved minutes from last call
14:07:10 <marcia> Tom: two more tele-cons
14:07:16 <jodi> which we really need to do! :)
14:07:25 <marcia> ... lots need to be done still
14:07:36 <marcia> Topic: Comments received
14:08:08 <marcia> Tom: realized missing the comments from the blog
14:08:13 <marcia> ... created a page
14:08:42 <marcia> ... Links to reviews - including comments on the UKOLN blog - updated from DraftReportReviewerAssignments (Tom)    
14:08:48 <marcia> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReportReviews
14:09:02 <marcia> ... any comments?
14:09:38 <marcia> ... summarized comments from various sections.  Authors should find useful
14:10:03 <marcia> ACTION: Editors of each section should watch for substantial comments to their section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/06/30-lld-minutes.html#action06]
14:10:14 <marcia> CONTINUES
14:10:22 <emma> q+
14:10:24 <marcia> ACTION: Daniel to keep track of comments from July 23-July 30 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/07/07-lld-minutes.html#action02]
14:10:29 <marcia> Done
14:11:07 <emma> ack me
14:11:15 <marcia> emma: will continue to monitor through AUg. 11
14:11:43 <antoine> Regrets+ Uldis
14:11:54 <marcia> ACTION: Emma to keep track of comments through AUG. 11
14:12:10 <tbaker> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Aug/0003.html 
14:12:37 <marcia> Tom: we had a discussion. two issues
14:13:11 <marcia> ... will come back to the recommendation issues
14:13:42 <marcia> ... looking at the draft of the report as a whole and the comments received, the group felt it might be useful to divise the current draft into two
14:14:18 <marcia> ... first title something like "Benefits of Library Linked Data, with     Recommendations"
14:14:31 <marcia> ... 8 pages long
14:15:41 <marcia> ... comments include good ones and also issues.  There were complains about the level of report sections assumed decision makers will read the report
14:15:59 <marcia> ... survey-oriented sections should be put into a second document
14:16:25 <marcia> ... such as vocabularies, technolgies.  Not try to address high level issues like the first documents
14:17:03 <marcia> ... now there are redundant of vocabularies in both report and side 
14:17:14 <marcia> ... the thirs deliverable would be use cases
14:17:20 <antoine> q+
14:17:25 <marcia> ... open to comments
14:17:48 <edsu> +1 for splitting it 
14:18:00 <marcia> ... regarding spliting
14:18:02 <tbaker> ack antoine
14:18:53 <marcia> Antoine: where are these comments that addressing the mixing
14:19:09 <marcia> Tom: some comments about technical details
14:19:24 <marcia> Karen: a number of comments said it is not clear of the audiance
14:20:01 <tbaker> q+
14:20:01 <marcia> ... I agree not necessarily be two documents. but general description should be first, in order not to lose them.
14:20:10 <marcia> ... maybe just rearranging
14:20:24 <edsu> +1 for rearranging i mean :-)
14:20:24 <emma> q+ to say that Vocs & data is part of general description
14:20:31 <marcia> ... first part could stand alone.  people who are only interested in that could just read that.
14:21:00 <tbaker> q-
14:21:17 <jeff_> Could the techie bits be left in place, but flagged somehow?
14:21:26 <marcia> Antoine: the higher level recommendation should still in the main doc.
14:21:40 <edsu> jeff_: kind of like spicy things on a menu? :-)
14:21:54 <jeff_> edsu: exactly!
14:22:00 <GordonD> All recommendations (general and technical) should be in the recommendations section.
14:22:03 <marcia> Karen: the first section now is very general.  2nd section go into how you do it.
14:22:33 <marcia> Antoine: data and technology side both have also general contents
14:22:56 <michaelp> Donal Knuth in the TeX docs uses a "sharp bend"/dangerous curve icon to flag those technical parts.
14:23:08 <tbaker> ack emma
14:23:08 <Zakim> emma, you wanted to say that Vocs & data is part of general description
14:23:09 <marcia> Karen: right now vocabulary inserted in between, it does not seem right. Afraid losing readers
14:23:58 <marcia> Emma: data description need to be there to show we are not talking from zero.  Having descriptions inside of the main report will be useful.
14:24:20 <tbaker> q+ to suggest that we have Part A and B
14:24:29 <marcia> ... should keep them in the same doc.  re-arrange a little bit
14:24:51 <tbaker> ack tbaker
14:24:51 <Zakim> tbaker, you wanted to suggest that we have Part A and B
14:25:05 <marcia> Tom: suggest to have a Part A and Part B.
14:25:28 <marcia> ... Make sense to make some into tight exc. summary
14:25:51 <marcia> ... If more challange, can be referred to Part B, e.g., technologies
14:26:27 <marcia> ... Voc and Dataset already have description and a detail... can almost go to appendix
14:26:41 <kcoyle> q+
14:26:41 <jodi> I don't think that additional documents is really additional overhead
14:26:47 <tbaker> ack kcoyle
14:27:04 <marcia> Karen: we can clarify them if we have real good titles
14:27:05 <monica> monica has joined #lld
14:27:12 <marcia> Tom: agree with Karen
14:27:24 <marcia> Karen: 1 section we set up theme
14:27:49 <marcia> ... 2nd: talking about tools that are available, progress already been made.
14:28:05 <marcia> ... folks look at TOC can see the flow
14:28:13 <antoine> q+
14:28:17 <tbaker> ack antoine
14:28:46 <marcia> Antoine: current situation is already out there
14:29:04 <emma> +1, antoine
14:29:06 <marcia> ... in the current issue section
14:29:09 <tbaker> ack emma
14:29:37 <marcia> Tom: Imply what we have the structure right now
14:30:05 <marcia> Antoine: maybe the data section just give methodologies through examples
14:30:14 <jodi> q+
14:30:40 <marcia> Emma: the technology may not so fit at the place 
14:30:49 <tbaker> q+
14:30:54 <tbaker> ack jodi
14:32:01 <marcia> Jodi: Like Tom's proposal.  There must be someway to convey them to read the technology without including the details in the main report.
14:32:10 <tbaker> ack tbaker
14:32:15 <marcia> ... should be as short as possible and as general as possible
14:32:37 <jodi> yes
14:33:04 <marcia> Tom: we were planning to have vocabulary as side deliverable.  
14:33:11 <antoine> q+ on relevant technologies
14:33:47 <marcia> ... take the draft vocab/data section, keep in Deliverable A.  Move technology to B.
14:34:09 <marcia> ... technology details of vocabulary and dataset go into B.
14:34:12 <tbaker> ack antoine
14:34:12 <Zakim> antoine, you wanted to comment on relevant technologies
14:34:19 <marcia> Antoine: maybe workable
14:34:22 <antoine> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Vocabularies_Datasets_Section
14:35:29 <marcia> ... maybe keep basic descriptions in the report
14:35:45 <marcia> Tom: that makes sense
14:36:19 <marcia> ... there are complains about the typology of dataset, element set, and value vocabularies, but no better way now
14:36:32 <GordonD> +1 for a short, general description of current state of available library vocabularies (most acronmys will be familiar to library executives) in part a, referring to the fuller separate deliverable
14:36:50 <antoine> q+
14:36:55 <kcoyle> I think placement is important; are we still keeping benefits, issues and recommendations together?
14:37:00 <marcia> ... in the main report keep this section. 
14:37:26 <marcia> ... just afraid of general readers would not follow
14:37:55 <marcia> ... looks like we are coming to an agreement of how to structure.
14:37:58 <tbaker> ack antoine
14:37:59 <kcoyle> q+ to ask about transclusion
14:38:27 <marcia> Antoine: agree to to put technology into a different deliverable
14:39:01 <marcia> s/deliverable/deliverable/
14:39:02 <GordonD> +1 benefits, current situation and issues (including vocabularies), recommendations in first part
14:39:08 <jodi> +1 to making it concrete
14:39:10 <antoine> s/agree to/disagree with
14:39:27 <jodi> if you make me a list of what you want, I can do the transclusion -- it's easy enough
14:39:36 <jodi> or what tom says :)
14:39:38 <marcia> Tom: maybe make al alternative transclusion and see how it looks like
14:40:04 <antoine> it's just a matter of changing the order of the current transclusion, I think :-)
14:40:05 <marcia> ACTION: Jodi to make an alternative transclusion
14:40:35 <marcia> Tom: asking Karen to work with Jodi
14:40:43 <marcia> Karen: happy to do it.
14:41:08 <jodi> great, Karen: the list of pages will be very easy to edit into a transclusion page :)
14:41:13 <marcia> ACTION: Karen, Tom, Michael, and Gordon to write the executive summary due in two weeks. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/07/21-lld-minutes.html#action05]
14:41:20 <marcia> CONTINUES
14:41:31 <marcia> ACTION: Karen and Emma to write a sentence adding cultural and memory institutions together in some way [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-lld-minutes.html#action03]
14:41:57 <marcia> Karen: the note is in there.  
14:42:10 <marcia> CONTINUES
14:42:28 <marcia> BENEFITS OF LINKED DATA (Ed, Emmanuelle, Ross) -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Benefits
14:43:28 <marcia> Emma: worked on the comments from Dickson.  We may need a meeting between me and ED
14:44:00 <marcia> ... suggest to have an action
14:44:15 <edsu> emma++
14:44:29 <marcia> ACTION: Editors of BENEFITS to meet and work on the comments.
14:44:40 <marcia> AVAILABLE VOCABULARIES AND DATASETS (Antoine, Jeff, Marcia, William) -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Vocabularies_Datasets_Section
14:44:59 <marcia> Antoine: we can manage them. There are manageable comments
14:45:01 <jeff_> zakim, unmute me
14:45:01 <Zakim> jeff_ should no longer be muted
14:45:09 <marcia> RELEVANT TECHNOLOGIES (Jeff) -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Relevant_Technologies
14:45:40 <marcia> Jeff: will keep working on them.
14:46:25 <marcia> CONTINUES
14:46:28 <jeff_> zakim, mute me
14:46:31 <Zakim> jeff_ should now be muted
14:46:56 <marcia> IMPLEMENTATION CHALLENGES AND BARRIERS TO ADOPTION 
14:48:04 <marcia> Karen:challenges and barriers... got lots of comments.  We got pushed back to the recommendations 
14:48:12 <marcia> some are beyond our scope.
14:48:26 <marcia> ... should keep in library linked data
14:48:41 <tbaker> q?
14:48:45 <tbaker> ack kcoyle
14:48:45 <Zakim> kcoyle, you wanted to ask about transclusion
14:48:49 <marcia> ... removed a lot of how things should be done.  Focused on what should be done
14:49:20 <marcia> ... regarding library systems
14:49:46 <marcia> ... assigining URIs, deciding what data go out first, etc. 
14:50:28 <jodi> adding metadata education
14:50:29 <marcia> ... removed things like staffing
14:50:42 <jodi> (I mean, "adding metadata education" was removed)
14:51:10 <marcia> ... removed some statements. 
14:51:14 <jodi> <-- from recommendations
14:51:37 <emma> q+ to ask how to handle removed items that need to go into benefits
14:51:50 <jodi> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_issues_page_take2
14:51:59 <jodi> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_recommendations_page_take2
14:52:03 <marcia> ... staffing, transfering the data, assignment of URI, etc. 
14:52:03 <tbaker> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/index.php?title=Draft_issues_page_take2&diff=5537&oldid=5374
14:52:18 <marcia> now it is more positive
14:52:36 <marcia> Tom: the draft is in the new page
14:52:39 <tbaker> ack emma
14:52:39 <Zakim> emma, you wanted to ask how to handle removed items that need to go into benefits
14:52:59 <marcia> Emma: did you track the changes?
14:53:12 <marcia> Karen: we can go back to the notes
14:54:03 <antoine> pls send stuff around too!
14:54:15 <antoine> (like the list of stuff to consider for benefits)
14:54:28 <marcia> ACTION: Karen will recover the statements removed from the changed section of benefits.
14:55:17 <antoine> q+ to have a call next week
14:55:20 <marcia> Tom: will need to work on these in the next weeks. 
14:55:25 <tbaker> ack antoine
14:55:25 <Zakim> antoine, you wanted to have a call next week
14:55:37 <jodi> +1 to a call next week
14:55:38 <marcia> ... welcome suggestions of how to do things differently
14:55:52 <kcoyle> +1 call next week
14:55:55 <jeff_> +1
14:55:57 <jodi> (however I will be gone myself)
14:55:58 <emma> s/recover the statements removed from the changed section of benefits./track items from former "issues" and "recommendations" that belong to benefits
14:55:58 <GordonD> regrets for next week, and week after
14:56:13 <marcia> TOM: will have conference next week
14:56:35 <marcia> USE CASES (Daniel) - SEPARATE DELIVERABLE
14:56:49 <Zakim> -jeff_
14:56:53 <jeff_> jeff_ has left #lld
14:57:24 <marcia> Karen: maybe just add some words in the Exc. summary regarding the use cases, mention them and say something about them.
14:57:57 <marcia> Topic: TRANSITION TO W3C COMMUNITY GROUP
14:58:18 <marcia> Tom: mentioned: 2011-05-12: Should inform W3C of intent to transition by 1 August for transition on 1 September (and cancel Zakim slot).
14:58:32 <emma> we did have discussion on 2001-06-30
14:58:36 <marcia> ... right now no clear indication of actions
14:58:41 <emma> s/2001/2011
14:59:06 <marcia> ... at the moment, the situation is that there is no replacement of this group.
14:59:11 <emma> q+
14:59:31 <tbaker> ack emma
14:59:49 <kcoyle> could we form a "transition group?"
14:59:56 <kai> Have to leave, too. Bye!
14:59:59 <kcoyle> with no long term obligation
15:00:01 <edsu> emma++ # public discussion
15:00:02 <marcia> Emma: will put on list
15:00:04 <antoine> +1
15:00:06 <jodi> +1 to public list discussion
15:00:09 <Zakim> -kai
15:00:21 <jodi> that sounds like kcoyle is volunteering to help make sure it happens, but only with others :)
15:00:48 <antoine> the list will survive, anyway!
15:00:56 <antoine> q+
15:01:01 <marcia> Karen: the small group of people who are willing to work through emails 
15:01:06 <tbaker> ack antoine
15:01:43 <marcia> AOB
15:01:45 <jodi> bye!
15:01:47 <Zakim> -[LC]
15:01:51 <Zakim> -michaelp
15:01:52 <antoine> zakim, please list attendees
15:01:53 <jneubert> bye
15:01:55 <Zakim> -monica
15:02:09 <Zakim> -kcoyle
15:02:11 <Zakim> -jodi
15:02:12 <emma> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:02:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html emma
15:02:13 <Zakim> -GordonD
15:02:17 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been tbaker, +1.614.764.aaaa, michaelp, +33.1.44.78.aabb, emma, jeff_, kcoyle, kai, +1.330.672.aacc, +49.4.aadd, marcia, jneubert, GordonD,
15:02:24 <Zakim> ... +44.194.346.aaee, monica, antoine, +1.763.463.aaff, jodi, [LC]
15:02:44 <antoine> zakim, LC is edsu
15:03:10 <Zakim> sorry, antoine, I do not recognize a party named 'LC'
15:03:17 <antoine> zakim, [LC] is edsu
15:03:36 <michaelp> michaelp has left #lld
15:03:39 <antoine> zakim, please list attendees
15:03:44 <Zakim> sorry, antoine, I do not recognize a party named '[LC]'
15:04:12 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been tbaker, +1.614.764.aaaa, michaelp, +33.1.44.78.aabb, emma, jeff_, kcoyle, kai, +1.330.672.aacc, +49.4.aadd, marcia, jneubert, GordonD,
15:04:15 <antoine> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:04:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html antoine
15:04:17 <Zakim> ... +44.194.346.aaee, monica, antoine, +1.763.463.aaff, jodi, [LC]
15:04:40 <antoine> Present+ edsu
15:04:46 <antoine> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:04:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-lld-minutes.html antoine
15:05:01 <Zakim> -jneubert
15:07:04 <Zakim> -marcia
15:08:43 <Zakim> -emma
15:08:44 <Zakim> -antoine
15:08:59 <Zakim> -tbaker
15:09:01 <Zakim> INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has ended
15:09:03 <Zakim> Attendees were tbaker, +1.614.764.aaaa, michaelp, +33.1.44.78.aabb, emma, jeff_, kcoyle, kai, +1.330.672.aacc, +49.4.aadd, marcia, jneubert, GordonD, +44.194.346.aaee, monica,
15:09:06 <Zakim> ... antoine, +1.763.463.aaff, jodi, [LC]
15:24:07 <jodi> jodi has joined #LLD
16:30:22 <danbri> danbri has joined #lld
17:06:50 <Zakim> Zakim has left #lld
18:21:55 <jodi> jodi has left #LLD
18:54:34 <danbri> danbri has joined #lld
20:09:14 <danbri> danbri has joined #lld