IRC log of rdf-wg on 2011-08-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:22:13 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:22:13 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/03-rdf-wg-irc
14:22:15 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
14:22:15 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:22:17 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 73394
14:22:17 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 38 minutes
14:22:18 [trackbot]: Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:22:18 [trackbot]: Date: 03 August 2011
14:39:08 [AZ]: AZ has joined #rdf-wg
14:53:55 [Zakim]: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
14:54:02 [Zakim]: + +1.707.861.aaaa
14:54:09 [gavinc]: zakim, aaaa is me
14:54:09 [Zakim]: +gavinc; got it
14:54:22 [pchampin]: pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
14:56:58 [Scott_Bauer]: Scott_Bauer has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:23 [SteveH]: Zakim, what is the code?
14:58:23 [Zakim]: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), SteveH
14:58:34 [Zakim]: +??P11
14:58:37 [pchampin]: pchampin has left #rdf-wg
14:58:39 [SteveH]: Zakim, ??P11 is me
14:58:39 [Zakim]: +SteveH; got it
14:58:45 [mbrunati]: mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:48 [Zakim]: +David_Wood
14:59:57 [ivan]: zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:59:57 [Zakim]: ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:59:59 [Zakim]: +Ivan
15:00:15 [Souri]: Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:19 [davidwood]: Zakim, you appear to be a goldfish
15:00:19 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'you appear to be a goldfish', davidwood
15:00:34 [AndyS1]: AndyS1 has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:42 [Zakim]: +OpenLink_Software
15:00:53 [MacTed]: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:00:53 [Zakim]: +MacTed; got it
15:00:54 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute me
15:00:55 [Zakim]: MacTed should now be muted
15:01:08 [Zakim]: +??P6
15:01:13 [cygri]: zakim, what's the code?
15:01:13 [Zakim]: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), cygri
15:01:19 [pchampin]: pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:23 [Zakim]: +Souri
15:01:35 [AndyS1]: zakim, ??P6 is me
15:01:35 [Zakim]: +AndyS1; got it
15:01:39 [zwu2]: zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:45 [zwu2]: zakim, code?
15:01:45 [Zakim]: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
15:01:48 [Zakim]: +??P4
15:01:55 [pchampin]: zakim, ??P4 is me
15:01:55 [Zakim]: +pchampin; got it
15:02:03 [Zakim]: +mhausenblas
15:02:04 [ivan]: zakim, who is noisy?
15:02:11 [pchampin]: zakim, mute me
15:02:11 [Zakim]: pchampin should now be muted
15:02:13 [cygri]: zakim, mhausenblas is me
15:02:13 [Zakim]: +cygri; got it
15:02:15 [Zakim]: ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pchampin (45%), mhausenblas (10%)
15:02:20 [Zakim]: +Tony
15:02:26 [Zakim]: + +1.650.265.aabb
15:02:32 [Scott_Bauer]: zakim, tony is me
15:02:32 [Zakim]: +Scott_Bauer; got it
15:02:34 [zwu2]: zakim, +1.650.265.aabb is me
15:02:34 [Zakim]: +zwu2; got it
15:02:46 [Zakim]: +ericP
15:03:19 [ericP]: gavinc, what are the contra-indications for publishing in HTML4.01 for this version?
15:03:29 [ericP]: uncool?
15:03:33 [FabGandon]: FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:41 [Zakim]: +??P1
15:03:43 [AlexHall]: AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:54 [mbrunati]: zakim, ??P1 is me
15:03:54 [Zakim]: +mbrunati; got it
15:04:03 [AndyS1]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:04 [Zakim]: On the phone I see gavinc, SteveH, David_Wood, Ivan, MacTed (muted), AndyS1, Souri, pchampin (muted), cygri, Scott_Bauer, zwu2, ericP, mbrunati
15:04:04 [gavinc]: I have no objections to publishing an HTML 4.01 document that is ALSO valid according to validator.nu
15:04:32 [cygri]: pchampin, if nathan isn't around today, do you want to scribe?
15:04:42 [pchampin]: I can scribe
15:04:42 [Zakim]: + +1.443.212.aacc
15:04:50 [AlexHall]: zakim, aacc is me
15:04:50 [Zakim]: +AlexHall; got it
15:04:59 [pchampin]: scribe: pchampin
15:05:14 [davidwood]: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 20 July telecon:
15:05:14 [davidwood]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-07-20
15:06:27 [pchampin]: RESOLVED: accepted
15:06:31 [davidwood]: Action item review:
15:06:31 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - item
15:06:31 [davidwood]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
15:06:31 [davidwood]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
15:06:34 [pchampin]: topic: open action items
15:08:23 [pchampin]: david: all people having open actions are not here today
15:08:28 [AZ]: I am but I'm not on the phone
15:08:56 [AZ]: hmm, I completely forgot my action
15:09:53 [davidwood]: Gavin and Eric P were speaking
15:10:01 [davidwood]: They are the editors of the Turtle document
15:10:08 [pchampin]: topic: Turtle moving to First Public Draft
15:11:09 [ivan]: q+
15:11:27 [Zakim]: +??P21
15:11:31 [pchampin]: eric: problems with embedding Turtle in HTML
15:11:37 [NickH]: zakim, ??P21 is me
15:11:37 [Zakim]: +NickH; got it
15:11:49 [NickH]: zakim, mute me
15:11:49 [Zakim]: NickH should now be muted
15:12:25 [pchampin]: ... especially if you want the Turtle to be copy-paste-able from the source
15:12:43 [pchampin]: ... (if the scribe got it right)
15:13:16 [pchampin]: Ivan: could be solved in ReSpec
15:13:27 [Zakim]: + +34.92.38.aadd
15:14:01 [FabGandon]: Zakim, 34.92.38.aadd is FabGandon
15:14:01 [Zakim]: sorry, FabGandon, I do not recognize a party named '34.92.38.aadd'
15:14:17 [FabGandon]: Zakim, aadd is FabGandon
15:14:17 [Zakim]: +FabGandon; got it
15:14:31 [Zakim]: + +33.9.54.07.aaee
15:14:44 [pchampin]: gavin: using CDATA does not work with non-XML-aware browsers
15:14:58 [AZ]: zakim, +33.9.54.07.aaee is me
15:14:58 [Zakim]: +AZ; got it
15:15:07 [AZ]: zakim, mute me
15:15:07 [Zakim]: AZ should now be muted
15:15:15 [pchampin]: david: couldn't some javascript help?
15:15:46 [pchampin]: gavin: I don't think we can publish a document with its content dynamically modified by javascript
15:16:28 [pchampin]: ivan: I don't really care about being able to copy-paste turtle form the source; I can do that from the browser
15:16:45 [ericP]: swallow our pride? what are we then?
15:16:55 [pchampin]: xxx: would make it easier to work with XSL-T as well, though
15:17:04 [ericP]: +1 to just publishing <-encoded turtle
15:18:05 [ericP]: q+ to ask about RDFa
15:18:12 [pchampin]: ivan: we can have all Turtle examples as seperate files, use them to generate the spec (with < encoding), and point in the spec to an archive with all the example as plain Turtle
15:18:42 [pchampin]: pchampin: +1 to Ivan's proposal
15:19:18 [pchampin]: s/xxx/eric/
15:20:24 [pchampin]: eric: we should apply the solution that allows us to publish sooner
15:20:51 [ivan]: gavin, the rdfa source: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-core/Overview-src.html
15:21:28 [ivan]: q-
15:21:31 [ericP]: q-
15:21:52 [pchampin]: topic: FTF2 Admin
15:21:54 [davidwood]: FTF2 Admin
15:21:54 [davidwood]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2
15:23:10 [pchampin]: david: people need to edit the wikipage above to indicate whether they will attend physically, remotely, or not
15:25:45 [pchampin]: david: it was proposed to have videoconference link with DERI for people from europe who could not come to MIT
15:26:03 [pchampin]: richard: it was proposed, but I'm not sure if that will be possible
15:26:04 [AndyS1]: Hello
15:26:33 [pchampin]: ... should be confirmed by someone who knows more what equipment will be available on both sides
15:26:37 [FabGandon]: q+ to mention discussions for having facilities for F2F meetings at WWW 2012 + 3rd F2F of RDF 1.1
15:27:43 [davidwood]: ack FabGandon
15:27:43 [Zakim]: FabGandon, you wanted to mention discussions for having facilities for F2F meetings at WWW 2012 + 3rd F2F of RDF 1.1
15:27:47 [AndyS1]: Oxford end was in computer lab. Worked well.
15:28:32 [pchampin]: fabien: wanted to mentionned on-going discussion with WWW 2012 organizers to have FTF3 there
15:28:42 [ericP]: -> http://tig.csail.mit.edu/twiki/bin/view/Ops/VideoConference MIT teleconferencing equipment
15:29:01 [AndyS1]: Poll was: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46168/F2F2-EAST/
15:29:13 [gavinc]: Yes
15:29:17 [gavinc]: Link works
15:29:51 [pchampin]: richard: I will check if the equipment pointed to by eric will work with our equipments at DERI
15:31:03 [pchampin]: ivan: I think there was also an offer to host the meeting at the Lucent labs in Dublin, have to check with Chris
15:31:09 [cygri]: ACTION: richard to check if DERI video conferencing equipment is compatible with http://tig.csail.mit.edu/twiki/bin/view/Ops/VideoConference for F2F2
15:31:09 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-72 - Check if DERI video conferencing equipment is compatible with http://tig.csail.mit.edu/twiki/bin/view/Ops/VideoConference for F2F2 [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-08-10].
15:31:26 [pchampin]: topic: RDF Concepts Editors Draft
15:32:24 [pchampin]: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html
15:32:28 [ivan]: q+
15:32:29 [davidwood]: q?
15:32:34 [davidwood]: ack ivan
15:32:41 [pchampin]: richard: I can turn it from an editor's draft to a working draft
15:33:13 [pchampin]: ivan: administrative question: is it possible to publish it in the same move as the Turtle document?
15:33:23 [pchampin]: david: I don't care
15:33:51 [Zakim]: -AZ
15:33:58 [pchampin]: ... I would even prefer two distinct announcements
15:34:36 [pchampin]: gavin: if published separately, they can not formaly refer to each other
15:34:53 [ivan]: q+
15:35:02 [Zakim]: +AZ
15:35:03 [pchampin]: david: not a problem at this stage, but may be we should record an issue to remember to update the links
15:35:13 [AZ]: zakim, mute me
15:35:13 [Zakim]: AZ should now be muted
15:36:23 [pchampin]: richard: I need to know what will be the short name, the date of the document
15:36:39 [pchampin]: gavin: the webmaster will tell you when you publish the document
15:37:00 [pchampin]: ... I can help you in the process, just went through it
15:37:23 [pchampin]: ivan: do we use the same short names as the original RDF or different ones?
15:38:02 [pchampin]: richard: I think we discussed this a time ago: new short name during the development (rdf11-*) and in the end replace the original short names
15:39:30 [pchampin]: ivan: the short name needs to be approved; we need to provide a short description of the document to Thomas, but he is in vacations now
15:39:56 [pchampin]: ... once this is done and the short name is approved, richard has to contact the webmaster
15:41:41 [pchampin]: david: if we agree here, I'll call a call for consensus on the list so that everyone can express
15:41:57 [pchampin]: ivan: we should record it as a resolution
15:42:08 [mischat]: i wonder who will be updating the RDF related validators on w3.org ...
15:42:14 [pchampin]: PROPOSED: move RDF-Concepts to 1st public working draft
15:42:21 [davidwood]: +1
15:42:22 [ivan]: +1
15:42:23 [AndyS1]: +1 (Apache)
15:42:24 [cygri]: +1
15:42:25 [gavinc]: +1
15:42:27 [zwu2]: +1
15:42:28 [mbrunati]: +1
15:42:29 [pchampin]: pchampin: +1
15:42:30 [MacTed]: +1
15:42:36 [mischat]: +!
15:42:37 [mischat]: +1
15:42:43 [AZ]: +1
15:42:49 [AlexHall]: +1
15:42:51 [SteveH]: +1
15:43:19 [ivan]: RESOLVED: move RDF-Concepts to 1st public working draft
15:43:49 [Souri]: +1
15:43:58 [gavinc]: Turtle version: Turtle is already a reasonably settled serialization of RDF. Many implementations of Turtle already exist, we are hoping for feedback from those existing implementers and other people deciding that now would be a good time to support Turtle. There are still a few rough edges that need polishing, and better alignment with the SPARQL triple patterns. The working group does not expect to make any large changes to the existing syntax.
15:45:39 [davidwood]: http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-rdf-concepts-20020829/
15:46:00 [AndyS1]: http://www.w3.org/2001/06/manual/#Status
15:46:39 [gavinc]: When I wrote the Turtle one I was unable to find any good examples :\
15:46:47 [pchampin]: ivan: Richard should write a paragraph similar to the one in the Turtle document (quoted by Gavin above) and send it to the rest of the group
15:48:15 [MacTed]: Zakim, who's noisy?
15:48:24 [davidwood]: TimBL expressed the goal of the custom paragraph this way, "Don't be afraid of being honest about the relevant techno-political situation."
15:48:25 [Zakim]: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David_Wood (25%), FabGandon (20%)
15:48:25 [pchampin]: david: the link pasted by Andy is correct, but does not provide much guidance
15:48:43 [ivan]: zakim, mute FabGandon
15:48:43 [Zakim]: FabGandon should now be muted
15:48:56 [AndyS1]: Good news, this does not happen every publication cycle.
15:48:57 [davidwood]: Introduction of RDF/XML spec doesn't explain relationship to RDF Concepts
15:48:57 [davidwood]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/72
15:49:46 [mischat]: s/n3/ntriples/
15:51:21 [pchampin]: gavin: I think the Turtle document does a slightly better job
15:51:22 [gavinc]: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-parsing-triples
15:51:32 [pchampin]: ... is that what you mean?
15:54:01 [davidwood]: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-rdf-syntax/#section-Syntax-intro
15:54:11 [mischat]: cygri: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-intro
15:55:42 [FabGandon]: zakim, unmute FabGandon
15:55:42 [Zakim]: FabGandon should no longer be muted
15:55:59 [pchampin]: ivan: I'm scared of touching the RDF/XML document
15:56:11 [pchampin]: david: we have to align it with the terminology, though
15:56:18 [cygri]: q+
15:56:30 [pchampin]: ... and to update the links
15:56:34 [davidwood]: ack ivan
15:56:58 [pchampin]: ivan: unfortunatelly
15:57:02 [davidwood]: ack cygri
15:57:51 [pchampin]: richard: some things really have to be done, including correcting some errors that have been spotted
15:58:05 [pchampin]: ... also, making it clear that this is just *one* syntax for an RDF graph
15:58:38 [pchampin]: ... though I can understand the arguments against touching the document at all
15:58:52 [cygri]: ivan++
15:59:03 [pchampin]: ivan: we can agree that any change we do is purely editorial
15:59:26 [mischat]: is s/rdf graph/$somethingMoreModern/ considered an editorial change
15:59:27 [mischat]: ?
15:59:49 [pchampin]: david: should this be a resolution?
16:00:02 [pchampin]: ivan: yes, it's probably good to have it
16:00:37 [ivan]: PROPOSED: the working group agrees that the RDF/XML document will have to undergo a minimal, editorial change to fit into the new set of recommendations (update of references, terms, etc)
16:00:56 [cygri]: +1
16:00:57 [MacTed]: +1
16:00:58 [gavinc]: +ugh
16:00:59 [ivan]: +1
16:01:00 [FabGandon]: +1
16:01:01 [zwu2]: +1
16:01:01 [mbrunati]: +1
16:01:04 [davidwood]: +1
16:01:05 [AZ]: +1
16:01:08 [SteveH]: +1
16:01:09 [Souri]: +1
16:01:10 [AndyS1]: +1
16:01:14 [AlexHall]: +1
16:01:29 [ivan]: RESOLVED: the working group agrees that the RDF/XML document will have to undergo a minimal, editorial change to fit into the new set of recommendations (update of references, terms, etc)
16:01:43 [mischat]: still thinks that s/rdf graph/XXXX/ would be nice ...
16:02:08 [Zakim]: -Souri
16:02:30 [pchampin]: david: I don't want to open the can of worm "Graph terminology" given the remaining time
16:02:58 [pchampin]: ivan: will the terminology appear in the RDF Concepts document?
16:03:01 [pchampin]: david: yes
16:03:05 [cygri]: ivan, long answer: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph
16:04:09 [pchampin]: ivan: from the last emails, it seems we are reaching consensus
16:04:58 [pchampin]: david: I agree, but I don't want to settle this issue in august, without some of the people that will want to be very careful about it
16:05:00 [davidwood]: Proposal for ISSUE-12 language-tagged literals
16:05:05 [davidwood]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jul/0048.html
16:05:23 [pchampin]: topic: issue-12
16:06:03 [pchampin]: richard: I can summarize the proposal:
16:06:15 [pchampin]: ... don't change the way literals with language tag work
16:07:25 [pchampin]: ... propose to call them 'language-tagged strings' because the old term "plain literals with language tag" does not makes sense anymore
16:07:43 [pchampin]: ... introduce a class rdf:LangString to allow it as rdfs:range of properties
16:08:43 [ivan]: q+
16:08:56 [pchampin]: andy: I would prefer literals with language tag to have a datatype
16:10:56 [pchampin]: ... with only one datatype covering all language tags
16:11:04 [davidwood]: ack ivan
16:11:05 [ivan]: q-
16:11:34 [pchampin]: ivan: in a sense, I'm in favor with what Andy says;
16:11:41 [cygri]: q+ to say that there are no datatype properties in rdf
16:12:16 [pchampin]: ... using rdf:LangString as the range of a datatype-property, if rdf:LangString is not a datatype, is strange from an user's point of view
16:12:21 [davidwood]: ack cygri
16:12:22 [Zakim]: cygri, you wanted to say that there are no datatype properties in rdf
16:13:06 [davidwood]: …but the OWL and RIF WGs will be concerned with higher-level schemas
16:13:09 [pchampin]: richard: I think that is a non issue; the distinction between object-properties and datatype-properties in not part of RDF
16:13:16 [pchampin]: ivan: but we can't ignore it
16:13:55 [pchampin]: richard: but the issue is not new, then: rdf:Literal is already a class
16:14:30 [cygri]: q+
16:14:52 [davidwood]: ack cygri
16:15:32 [AndyS1]: q+
16:15:54 [AndyS1]: q+ to say that is heading to langtag = implicit datatype.
16:16:33 [pchampin]: richard: I have two concerns:
16:16:51 [pchampin]: ... 1/ the complexity of a conceptual framework with (lexical form, datatype, language tag)
16:17:02 [pchampin]: ... where language tag can only be present if datatype has certain values
16:17:09 [pchampin]: ... 2/ abusing the notion of datatype
16:17:11 [AndyS1]: There are numbers you can't write down already.
16:17:32 [davidwood]: ack AndyS
16:17:32 [Zakim]: AndyS, you wanted to say that is heading to langtag = implicit datatype.
16:18:15 [Zakim]: -NickH
16:18:18 [pchampin]: pchampin: @AndyS: are those numbers (that you can't write down) part of any xsd datatype??
16:19:11 [Zakim]: -ericP
16:19:34 [pchampin]: david: should we revisit the datatype discussion based on the new perspective you brought (single datatype, instead of one datatype per language tag)?
16:19:39 [AndyS1]: They are in the value space which is the number line :-)
16:20:16 [pchampin]: david: we have to adjourn now; next telecon in two weeks
16:20:18 [SteveH]: bye
16:20:19 [zwu2]: bye
16:20:20 [Zakim]: -AZ
16:20:22 [mbrunati]: bye
16:20:22 [Zakim]: -SteveH
16:20:26 [Zakim]: -AlexHall
16:20:32 [AlexHall]: AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:20:33 [Zakim]: -mbrunati
16:20:47 [pchampin]: RRSagent, make minutes
16:20:47 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/03-rdf-wg-minutes.html pchampin
16:20:47 [Zakim]: -Ivan
16:20:49 [Zakim]: -David_Wood
16:20:50 [Zakim]: -cygri
16:20:51 [Zakim]: -zwu2
16:20:52 [Zakim]: -MacTed
16:21:04 [Zakim]: -Scott_Bauer
16:21:09 [Zakim]: -AndyS1
16:21:10 [Zakim]: -FabGandon
16:21:16 [cygri]: gavinc, i'll try to do the FPWD thing in ReSpec. might come to you with questions.
16:21:30 [gavinc]: cygri sounds good
16:21:40 [Zakim]: -gavinc
16:22:29 [Zakim]: -pchampin
16:22:30 [Zakim]: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
16:22:32 [Zakim]: Attendees were +1.707.861.aaaa, gavinc, SteveH, David_Wood, Ivan, MacTed, Souri, AndyS1, pchampin, cygri, Scott_Bauer, zwu2, ericP, mbrunati, +1.443.212.aacc, AlexHall, NickH,
16:22:35 [Zakim]: ... +34.92.38.aadd, FabGandon, AZ
16:22:58 [pchampin]: can anyone help me with the publishing of the minutes on the wiki?
16:23:06 [FabGandon]: FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
16:23:18 [gavinc]: Okay, I think I have javascript that turns all the examples <scripts> into <divs>
16:23:20 [gavinc]: what fun
16:23:57 [pchampin]: RRSagant, make records public
16:24:13 [pchampin]: RRSagent, make records public
16:25:45 [AndyS]: AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
16:30:21 [gavinc]: Done!
16:30:31 [gavinc]: Turtle document may be valid XHTML now
16:31:30 [gavinc]: ericP, the javascript is done, the saved XHTML has escaped turtle in it. can you take it from there?
16:37:53 [gavinc]: Right, gone for 3 hours!
18:11:27 [mischat]: mischat has joined #rdf-wg
18:55:06 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #rdf-wg
20:08:57 [mischat]: mischat has joined #rdf-wg
20:34:52 [mischat]: mischat has joined #rdf-wg
22:30:10 [gavinc]: gavinc has joined #rdf-wg
22:30:16 [gavinc]: Howdy IRC
22:30:55 [gavinc]: anyone know if the javascript hackery did the trick?