15:37:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
15:37:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/12-rdb2rdf-irc
15:37:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:37:33 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
15:37:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
15:37:35 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
15:37:36 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:37:36 <trackbot> Date: 12 July 2011
15:37:57 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Jul/0046.html
15:38:01 <mhausenblas> Chair: Michael
15:38:09 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:38:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/12-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:38:17 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:53:16 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
15:54:58 <dmcneil> dmcneil has joined #RDB2RDF
15:56:19 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:56:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/12-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:57:20 <cygri_> cygri_ has joined #rdb2rdf
15:58:47 <boris> boris has joined #rdb2rdf
15:58:49 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
15:58:57 <Zakim> +cygri
15:59:05 <mhausenblas> Zakim, I am mhausenblas 
15:59:05 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I do not see a party named 'mhausenblas'
15:59:17 <mhausenblas> Zakim, cygri is really mhausenblas 
15:59:17 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
15:59:22 <Zakim> +dmcneil
15:59:37 <mhausenblas> present+ Dave
15:59:42 <mhausenblas> present+ Michael
15:59:47 <mhausenblas> Zakim, cygri is with me
15:59:47 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
15:59:56 <mhausenblas> Zakim, boris is with me
15:59:56 <Zakim> +boris; got it
16:00:01 <mhausenblas> present+ Boris
16:00:06 <mhausenblas> present+ Richard
16:00:13 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:00:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/12-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:01:20 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:01:26 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:01:26 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:01:29 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:01:29 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:01:39 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:01:39 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:01:48 <mhausenblas> present+ Ted
16:02:05 <soeren> soeren has joined #RDB2RDF
16:02:34 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:02:34 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:02:53 <dmcneil> http://www.metalunderground.org/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=36815 ?
16:03:38 <Zakim> +??P27
16:03:52 <soeren> zakim, ??P27 is soeren
16:03:52 <Zakim> +soeren; got it
16:03:59 <mhausenblas> present+ Soeren
16:04:02 <mhausenblas> Μη μου τους κύκλους τάραττε
16:04:21 <nunolopes> nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF
16:04:37 <nunolopes> Zakim, nunolopes is with mhausenblas
16:04:37 <Zakim> +nunolopes; got it
16:04:48 <mhausenblas> present+ Nuno
16:04:54 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who is around?
16:04:54 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, mhausenblas.
16:05:00 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who is here?
16:05:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, dmcneil, MacTed (muted), soeren
16:05:02 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri, boris, nunolopes
16:05:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see nunolopes, soeren, boris, cygri, dmcneil, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, MacTed, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru_, ericP, trackbot
16:05:12 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
16:05:12 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
16:05:14 <Zakim> +EricP
16:05:29 <mhausenblas> present+ Eric
16:06:26 <Zakim> +Souri
16:06:29 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:06:34 <mhausenblas> present+ Souri
16:06:40 <Seema> Seema has joined #rdb2rdf
16:07:09 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Percy
16:07:27 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Marcelo
16:07:34 <dmcneil> so richard is the roman soldier
16:08:21 <Souri> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:08:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, dmcneil, MacTed (muted), soeren, EricP, Souri
16:08:23 <Zakim> mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri, boris, nunolopes
16:08:41 <Zakim> +Seema
16:08:50 <mhausenblas> present+ Seema
16:09:24 <cygri> today's agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Jul/0046.html
16:09:36 <mhausenblas>  PROPOSAL: Accept the minutes of last meeting http://www.w3.org/2011/06/28-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:10:06 <ericP> RESOLVED: Accept the minutes of last meeting http://www.w3.org/2011/06/28-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:10:17 <ericP> topic: restructed R2RML spec
16:10:22 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/r2rml/
16:10:36 <ericP> mhausenblas: kudos to cygri for work on r2rml
16:10:48 <ericP> cygri: please read it
16:10:54 <ericP> ... rewrite goals:
16:11:05 <ericP> ... .. flatten table of contents
16:11:27 <ericP> ... .. remove duplicate defn's of the same property
16:12:05 <ericP> ... .. NOT change the language
16:12:28 <dmcneil> +q
16:12:33 <ericP> ... for more info, read it
16:13:06 <ericP> mhausenblas: would like a review
16:13:33 <ericP> soeren: last time i put comments into a word doc
16:13:39 <mhausenblas> Ivan is on vacation
16:13:42 <mhausenblas> q?
16:13:43 <ericP> ... how should i annotate this time?
16:14:09 <ericP> cygri: wiki or email, and just say e.g. section 6.3
16:14:45 <ericP> soeren: i like to put the comments in context
16:15:45 <mhausenblas> ack dmcneil 
16:15:47 <ericP> ... but will use wiki or email
16:16:07 <ericP> dmcneil: i thought there were spec changes
16:16:41 <cygri> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Jul/0009.html
16:16:54 <ericP> ... is there a list of the [non-editorial] changes?
16:16:55 <ericP> ... how many issues were brought forward?
16:17:14 <ericP> cygri: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Jul/0009 contains a list of changes i planned to make
16:17:29 <ericP> ... i did make all those changes
16:17:46 <ericP> dmcneil: i thought that the template stuff had changed, but maybe it was just enumerated
16:18:31 <ericP> cygri: enumerated, but didn't list all those in email
16:18:44 <ericP> ... i tried to captured or addressed all old issues
16:19:09 <ericP> s/tried to/believe i/
16:19:22 <dmcneil> -q
16:19:59 <ericP> topic: housekeeping
16:20:11 <Souri> we have a few "pending review" actions -- can we go over them and close (if possible)?
16:20:30 <mhausenblas> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Jun/0136.html
16:20:59 <ericP> PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-20, ISSUE-28, ISSUE-32 and ISSUE-44
16:21:10 <ericP> PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-20, ISSUE-28, ISSUE-32 and ISSUE-44 per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Jun/0136
16:21:39 <MacTed> +1 handle as in the email...
16:21:40 <ericP> cygri: these were all dmcneil issues which dmcneil has agreed were addressed
16:21:50 <ericP> +1
16:22:02 <ericP> RESOLVED: Resolve ISSUE-20, ISSUE-28, ISSUE-32 and ISSUE-44 per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Jun/0136
16:22:27 <cygri> ISSUE-34?
16:22:27 <trackbot> ISSUE-34 -- R2RML terminology: addressing vendor-specific names like "owner" -- open
16:22:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/34
16:22:37 <ericP> +1
16:22:47 <cygri> PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-34 by dropping rr:tableOwner, and stating that rr:tableName MAY be a schema-qualified name.
16:23:14 <dmcneil> +1
16:23:24 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:23:24 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:23:32 <Souri> rr:tableName "scott.emp"
16:24:15 <Souri> rr:tableName """"scott smith"."emp info""""
16:24:35 <cygri> ISSUE-35?
16:24:35 <trackbot> ISSUE-35 -- Case sensitivity of SQL identifiers -- open
16:24:35 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/35
16:24:45 <ericP> Souri: what will we do with a schema name "scott smith"?
16:25:15 <MacTed> SQL spec sets these containers...  The Database >> Catalog >> Schema >> Tables/Views >> Rows/Columns
16:25:17 <ericP> cygri: ISSUE-35 is in the same problem space (identifiers with quotes around them)
16:25:27 <dmcneil> +q
16:25:28 <Souri> rr:tableOwner "scott smith"
16:25:41 <ericP> Souri: table ownder gives a nice way to label these things
16:25:44 <cygri> q+
16:25:50 <MacTed> qualified name is [[["Database".]"Catalog".]"Schema".]"Table"
16:25:52 <ericP> ... we could make table owner optional
16:25:59 <MacTed> owner is often conflated with schema
16:25:59 <Souri> rr:tableQname
16:26:20 <ericP> ... we could also call table name "schemaQualifiedName"
16:26:29 <mhausenblas> q?
16:26:32 <mhausenblas> ack dmcneil 
16:26:43 <MacTed> q+
16:26:58 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 
16:27:00 <mhausenblas> q?
16:27:15 <ericP> dmcneil: for me, if the mapping user wants to select a default schema, then they'd do that outside of r2rml, e.g. in connection properties.
16:27:26 <ericP> ... do others see it the same way?
16:28:26 <ericP> cygri: there is text in the doc about connection properties outside the spec
16:28:55 <ericP> MacTed: there are many reasons to do cross-schema joins
16:29:21 <ericP> ... trying to escape this stuff will brake a lot of users' and implementors' brains
16:29:41 <Souri> +1 to MacTed we need to reference something outside of default (connection) schema
16:29:58 <ericP> cygri: we currently say that if you leave out rr:tableOwner, we'd use the default connection
16:30:20 <ericP> ... in a SQL query, you can explicitly name a schema and user
16:30:24 <Souri> I thought it was default schema issue was already decided that: if you do not specify a schema, it will automatically use the default (connection) schema
16:30:31 <ericP> ... so this isn't specific to tableName
16:31:21 <Souri> q+
16:31:27 <mhausenblas> ack Souri 
16:31:31 <dmcneil> +1 to proposal on table
16:31:55 <MacTed> -1 to dropping tableOwner
16:32:09 <ericP> MacTed: addressing vendor-specific notions like owner is not address by dropping table owner
16:32:14 <MacTed> issue is "Owner" is vendor-specific, not SQL-standard
16:32:25 <ericP> Souri: i thought that owner was not vendor-specific
16:32:27 <MacTed> SQL spec sets these containers...  The Database >> Catalog >> Schema >> Tables/Views >> Rows/Columns
16:32:27 <MacTed> so use those terms...
16:32:47 <cygri> PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-34 by dropping rr:tableOwner, and stating that rr:tableName MAY be a schema-qualified name.
16:32:50 <MacTed> columnTable
16:32:50 <MacTed> tableSchema
16:32:50 <MacTed> schemaCatalog
16:32:50 <MacTed> catalogDatabase
16:32:52 <ericP> ... we need to explicitly specificy a schema
16:33:06 <MacTed> leave any of these out, and you're in the defaults
16:33:35 <ericP> ... we could add it to the tableName but that's a different thing called schema-qualified name
16:33:58 <ericP> MacTed: putting all of those identifiers in a single field brings up real escaping problems
16:34:01 <cygri> PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-35 by allowing use of quotes around SQL column/table identifiers in the mapping language; requiring that authors match the quoting style that was used when creating the identifier; follow SQL rules for case sensitivity (quoted is case sensitive; unquoted is case insensitive)
16:34:45 <ericP> ... this problem doesn't address my issue with issue-34
16:36:02 <ericP> q+ to ask for specific use cases which aren't addressed by 34+35
16:36:11 <mhausenblas> ack MacTed 
16:36:30 <mhausenblas> ack ericP 
16:36:30 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask for specific use cases which aren't addressed by 34+35
16:36:34 <MacTed> PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-34 by changing all vendor-specific terminology to spec-generic terminology; replacing rr:tableOwner with rr:tableSchema; and adding rr:columnTable rr:schemaCatalog rr:catalogDatabase to make complete identifier construction possible
16:37:21 <ericP> ericP: what use cases can't be addressed at all by 34+35?
16:37:46 <ericP> cygri: if you are writing a SQL query with case-sensitive table names, you need to put it in quotes
16:38:25 <ericP> ... if it's in a catalog, you need to use [[ FROM "catalog name"."table name" ]]
16:38:30 <Souri> example: select * from "scott smith"."emp info";
16:38:32 <ericP> ... this is already the case
16:39:51 <ericP> cygri: my proposal for 34 is to put it in one property
16:40:47 <ericP> ... if someone wants to address a table in another schema, they'd reflexively prefix the schema name
16:40:53 <ericP> +1
16:41:53 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-34 by dropping rr:tableOwner, and stating that rr:objectName MAY be a schema-qualified name.
16:42:00 <ericP> MacTed: propose to change tableName to objectName because tableName has a very specific interpretation
16:42:12 <MacTed> PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-34 by dropping rr:tableOwner, and stating that rr:objectName MAY be a fully-qualified name.
16:42:46 <ericP> q+ to ask for use cases which are enhance by having schemas etc. distinguished
16:42:49 <dmcneil> +1 to "fully-qualified"
16:42:54 <mhausenblas> q?
16:43:13 <Souri> how would you express: "scott smith"."emp info" ? Is it: [] rr:tableName """"scott smith"."emp info""""? I do not see any major gain over: [] rr:tableName "scott smith" ; rr:tableOwner "emp info" .
16:44:22 <dmcneil> PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-34 by dropping rr:tableOwner, and stating that rr:tableName MAY be a fully-qualified name.
16:44:29 <cygri> <table name> ::= <local or schema qualified name>
16:44:40 <mhausenblas> q?
16:44:49 <mhausenblas> ack ericP 
16:44:49 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask for use cases which are enhance by having schemas etc. distinguished
16:45:17 <dmcneil> not necessarily in the SQL queries
16:45:22 <dmcneil> in the R2RML property values
16:46:26 <cygri> quoting SQL spec: "Base tables and views are identified by <table name>s."
16:46:26 <Souri> figuring out whether a given name is schema qualified or not is a hassle: separating out as rr:tableOwner (or rr:tableSchema) and rr:tableName is much easier to process
16:46:41 <Souri> q+
16:46:45 <dmcneil> it's whether you qualify them in SQL or in RDF
16:46:53 <mhausenblas> ack Souri 
16:47:26 <ericP> Souri: we want to meet the Sept LC
16:48:14 <cygri> q+
16:48:23 <ericP> ... it's a hassle to crack owner, schema and table names
16:48:39 <ericP> ... we could add another prop for the qualified name
16:49:03 <Souri> PROPOSAL: no change or replace rr:tableOwner with rr:tableSchema
16:49:56 <mhausenblas> ack cygri 
16:50:21 <Souri> PROPOSAL: no change or replace rr:tableOwner with rr:tableSchema, may be supplement with a new property rr:fullyQualifiedTableName
16:50:25 <ericP> cygri: the real name for tableOwner is tableSchema
16:50:33 <ericP> ... but a schema can also have a catalog
16:50:44 <ericP> ... so you've pushed the problem on
16:50:56 <dmcneil> +q
16:51:09 <ericP> ... so we need a third property, or four per MacTed's list
16:51:12 <mhausenblas> ack dmcneil 
16:51:23 <ericP> ... so we're complciating the language to save us some parsing
16:51:41 <ericP> dmcneil: if we want to separate them all, then we want to address them in RDF
16:52:06 <ericP> ... in which case want them to create (and exploit) a resource
16:52:22 <Souri> I have put in an alternate (extended) proposal
16:52:23 <ericP> ... but to move on, i think we want to wrap it all into the tableName
16:52:27 <ericP> +1 to dmcneil
16:53:18 <Souri> PROPOSAL: replace rr:tableOwner with rr:tableSchema *and* supplement with a new property rr:fullyQualifiedTableName
16:53:48 <ericP> mhausenblas: we have three proposals:
16:53:57 <ericP> ... cygri's with 1 property
16:54:07 <ericP> ... MacTed's with 4
16:54:15 <ericP> ... Souri's with 3
16:54:26 <ericP> +1 to cygri's proposal
16:54:53 <mhausenblas> ISSUE-35?
16:54:53 <trackbot> ISSUE-35 -- Case sensitivity of SQL identifiers -- open
16:54:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/35
16:55:17 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-35 by allowing use of quotes around SQL column/table identifiers in the mapping language; requiring that authors match the quoting style that was used when creating the identifier; follow SQL rules for case sensitivity (quoted is case sensitive; unquoted is case insensitive)
16:55:29 <ericP> second
16:55:48 <dmcneil> reading, trying to refresh my memory
16:56:13 <ericP> ericP: aligns well with behavior of SQL implementations?
16:56:19 <ericP> cygri: yes
16:56:27 <dmcneil> +q
16:56:33 <mhausenblas> ack dmcneil 
16:56:39 <ericP> ... whenever you'd make a ref to a table in SQL, you'd put the same text into the turtle string and get the same results
16:57:15 <ericP> dmcneil: we've faced an issue around the default behavior of the DB
16:57:41 <ericP> ... we wanted to emulate the default for the DB
16:58:09 <ericP> cygri: SQL 98 defaults to case-insensitive unless names are in quotes
16:58:34 <cygri> This specification defines R2RML for databases that conform to Core SQL 2008, as defined in ISO/IEC 9075-1:2008 [SQL1] and ISO/IEC 9075-2:2008 [SQL2]. Processors and mappings may have to deviate from the R2RML specification in order to support databases that do not conform to this version of SQL.
16:58:38 <mhausenblas> s/SQL 98/ SQL 2008
16:59:10 <mhausenblas> q?
16:59:12 <ericP> ... if you want to run on something other than 2008, i don't see how we can do more to address it
16:59:26 <Souri> +1
16:59:29 <soeren> +1
16:59:33 <ericP> dmcneil: i think this issue is still thorny, but support this resolution in the interest of progress
17:00:37 <ericP> RESOLUTIONL Resolve ISSUE-35 by allowing use of quotes around SQL column/table identifiers in the mapping language; requiring that authors match the quoting style that was used when creating the identifier; follow SQL rules for case sensitivity (quoted is case sensitive; unquoted is case insensitive)
17:00:53 <ericP> RESOLUTION: Resolve ISSUE-35 by allowing use of quotes around SQL column/table identifiers in the mapping language; requiring that authors match the quoting style that was used when creating the identifier; follow SQL rules for case sensitivity (quoted is case sensitive; unquoted is case insensitive)
17:02:04 <Seema> I am around
17:02:22 <Souri> I am around, but deadline bound a bit
17:02:34 <ericP> mhausenblas: all, please view the issues in http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/open
17:02:39 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
17:02:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/12-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:03:34 <Zakim> -Souri
17:03:35 <Zakim> -dmcneil
17:03:35 <Zakim> -EricP
17:03:36 <mhausenblas> regrets+ Ashok
17:03:36 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:03:37 <Zakim> -Seema
17:03:38 <Zakim> -soeren
17:03:43 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
17:03:44 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has ended
17:03:45 <Zakim> Attendees were mhausenblas, dmcneil, cygri, boris, MacTed, soeren, nunolopes, EricP, Souri, Seema
17:04:08 <mhausenblas> trackbot, end telecon
17:04:08 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:04:08 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
17:04:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:04:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/12-rdb2rdf-minutes.html trackbot
17:04:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:04:10 <RRSAgent> I see no action items