IRC log of rdb2rdf on 2011-07-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:37:31 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
15:37:31 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/12-rdb2rdf-irc
15:37:33 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:37:33 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
15:37:35 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7322733
15:37:35 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
15:37:36 [trackbot]
Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:37:36 [trackbot]
Date: 12 July 2011
15:37:57 [mhausenblas]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Jul/0046.html
15:38:01 [mhausenblas]
Chair: Michael
15:38:09 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:38:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/12-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:38:17 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:53:16 [ericP]
scribenick: ericP
15:54:58 [dmcneil]
dmcneil has joined #RDB2RDF
15:56:19 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:56:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/12-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:57:20 [cygri_]
cygri_ has joined #rdb2rdf
15:58:47 [boris]
boris has joined #rdb2rdf
15:58:49 [Zakim]
SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
15:58:57 [Zakim]
+cygri
15:59:05 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, I am mhausenblas
15:59:05 [Zakim]
sorry, mhausenblas, I do not see a party named 'mhausenblas'
15:59:17 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, cygri is really mhausenblas
15:59:17 [Zakim]
+mhausenblas; got it
15:59:22 [Zakim]
+dmcneil
15:59:37 [mhausenblas]
present+ Dave
15:59:42 [mhausenblas]
present+ Michael
15:59:47 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, cygri is with me
15:59:47 [Zakim]
+cygri; got it
15:59:56 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, boris is with me
15:59:56 [Zakim]
+boris; got it
16:00:01 [mhausenblas]
present+ Boris
16:00:06 [mhausenblas]
present+ Richard
16:00:13 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:00:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/12-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:01:20 [Zakim]
+OpenLink_Software
16:01:26 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:01:26 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
16:01:29 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
16:01:29 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
16:01:39 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
16:01:39 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
16:01:48 [mhausenblas]
present+ Ted
16:02:05 [soeren]
soeren has joined #RDB2RDF
16:02:34 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
16:02:34 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
16:02:53 [dmcneil]
http://www.metalunderground.org/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=36815 ?
16:03:38 [Zakim]
+??P27
16:03:52 [soeren]
zakim, ??P27 is soeren
16:03:52 [Zakim]
+soeren; got it
16:03:59 [mhausenblas]
present+ Soeren
16:04:02 [mhausenblas]
Μη μου τους κύκλους τάραττε
16:04:21 [nunolopes]
nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF
16:04:37 [nunolopes]
Zakim, nunolopes is with mhausenblas
16:04:37 [Zakim]
+nunolopes; got it
16:04:48 [mhausenblas]
present+ Nuno
16:04:54 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, who is around?
16:04:54 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, mhausenblas.
16:05:00 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, who is here?
16:05:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see mhausenblas, dmcneil, MacTed (muted), soeren
16:05:02 [Zakim]
mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri, boris, nunolopes
16:05:03 [Zakim]
On IRC I see nunolopes, soeren, boris, cygri, dmcneil, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, MacTed, mhausenblas, iv_an_ru_, ericP, trackbot
16:05:12 [ericP]
Zakim, please dial ericP-office
16:05:12 [Zakim]
ok, ericP; the call is being made
16:05:14 [Zakim]
+EricP
16:05:29 [mhausenblas]
present+ Eric
16:06:26 [Zakim]
+Souri
16:06:29 [Souri]
Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:06:34 [mhausenblas]
present+ Souri
16:06:40 [Seema]
Seema has joined #rdb2rdf
16:07:09 [mhausenblas]
regrets+ Percy
16:07:27 [mhausenblas]
regrets+ Marcelo
16:07:34 [dmcneil]
so richard is the roman soldier
16:08:21 [Souri]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:08:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see mhausenblas, dmcneil, MacTed (muted), soeren, EricP, Souri
16:08:23 [Zakim]
mhausenblas has mhausenblas, cygri, boris, nunolopes
16:08:41 [Zakim]
+Seema
16:08:50 [mhausenblas]
present+ Seema
16:09:24 [cygri]
today's agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Jul/0046.html
16:09:36 [mhausenblas]
PROPOSAL: Accept the minutes of last meeting http://www.w3.org/2011/06/28-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:10:06 [ericP]
RESOLVED: Accept the minutes of last meeting http://www.w3.org/2011/06/28-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:10:17 [ericP]
topic: restructed R2RML spec
16:10:22 [cygri]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/r2rml/
16:10:36 [ericP]
mhausenblas: kudos to cygri for work on r2rml
16:10:48 [ericP]
cygri: please read it
16:10:54 [ericP]
... rewrite goals:
16:11:05 [ericP]
... .. flatten table of contents
16:11:27 [ericP]
... .. remove duplicate defn's of the same property
16:12:05 [ericP]
... .. NOT change the language
16:12:28 [dmcneil]
+q
16:12:33 [ericP]
... for more info, read it
16:13:06 [ericP]
mhausenblas: would like a review
16:13:33 [ericP]
soeren: last time i put comments into a word doc
16:13:39 [mhausenblas]
Ivan is on vacation
16:13:42 [mhausenblas]
q?
16:13:43 [ericP]
... how should i annotate this time?
16:14:09 [ericP]
cygri: wiki or email, and just say e.g. section 6.3
16:14:45 [ericP]
soeren: i like to put the comments in context
16:15:45 [mhausenblas]
ack dmcneil
16:15:47 [ericP]
... but will use wiki or email
16:16:07 [ericP]
dmcneil: i thought there were spec changes
16:16:41 [cygri]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Jul/0009.html
16:16:54 [ericP]
... is there a list of the [non-editorial] changes?
16:16:55 [ericP]
... how many issues were brought forward?
16:17:14 [ericP]
cygri: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Jul/0009 contains a list of changes i planned to make
16:17:29 [ericP]
... i did make all those changes
16:17:46 [ericP]
dmcneil: i thought that the template stuff had changed, but maybe it was just enumerated
16:18:31 [ericP]
cygri: enumerated, but didn't list all those in email
16:18:44 [ericP]
... i tried to captured or addressed all old issues
16:19:09 [ericP]
s/tried to/believe i/
16:19:22 [dmcneil]
-q
16:19:59 [ericP]
topic: housekeeping
16:20:11 [Souri]
we have a few "pending review" actions -- can we go over them and close (if possible)?
16:20:30 [mhausenblas]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Jun/0136.html
16:20:59 [ericP]
PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-20, ISSUE-28, ISSUE-32 and ISSUE-44
16:21:10 [ericP]
PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-20, ISSUE-28, ISSUE-32 and ISSUE-44 per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Jun/0136
16:21:39 [MacTed]
+1 handle as in the email...
16:21:40 [ericP]
cygri: these were all dmcneil issues which dmcneil has agreed were addressed
16:21:50 [ericP]
+1
16:22:02 [ericP]
RESOLVED: Resolve ISSUE-20, ISSUE-28, ISSUE-32 and ISSUE-44 per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2011Jun/0136
16:22:27 [cygri]
ISSUE-34?
16:22:27 [trackbot]
ISSUE-34 -- R2RML terminology: addressing vendor-specific names like "owner" -- open
16:22:27 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/34
16:22:37 [ericP]
+1
16:22:47 [cygri]
PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-34 by dropping rr:tableOwner, and stating that rr:tableName MAY be a schema-qualified name.
16:23:14 [dmcneil]
+1
16:23:24 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
16:23:24 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
16:23:32 [Souri]
rr:tableName "scott.emp"
16:24:15 [Souri]
rr:tableName """"scott smith"."emp info""""
16:24:35 [cygri]
ISSUE-35?
16:24:35 [trackbot]
ISSUE-35 -- Case sensitivity of SQL identifiers -- open
16:24:35 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/35
16:24:45 [ericP]
Souri: what will we do with a schema name "scott smith"?
16:25:15 [MacTed]
SQL spec sets these containers... The Database >> Catalog >> Schema >> Tables/Views >> Rows/Columns
16:25:17 [ericP]
cygri: ISSUE-35 is in the same problem space (identifiers with quotes around them)
16:25:27 [dmcneil]
+q
16:25:28 [Souri]
rr:tableOwner "scott smith"
16:25:41 [ericP]
Souri: table ownder gives a nice way to label these things
16:25:44 [cygri]
q+
16:25:50 [MacTed]
qualified name is [[["Database".]"Catalog".]"Schema".]"Table"
16:25:52 [ericP]
... we could make table owner optional
16:25:59 [MacTed]
owner is often conflated with schema
16:25:59 [Souri]
rr:tableQname
16:26:20 [ericP]
... we could also call table name "schemaQualifiedName"
16:26:29 [mhausenblas]
q?
16:26:32 [mhausenblas]
ack dmcneil
16:26:43 [MacTed]
q+
16:26:58 [mhausenblas]
ack cygri
16:27:00 [mhausenblas]
q?
16:27:15 [ericP]
dmcneil: for me, if the mapping user wants to select a default schema, then they'd do that outside of r2rml, e.g. in connection properties.
16:27:26 [ericP]
... do others see it the same way?
16:28:26 [ericP]
cygri: there is text in the doc about connection properties outside the spec
16:28:55 [ericP]
MacTed: there are many reasons to do cross-schema joins
16:29:21 [ericP]
... trying to escape this stuff will brake a lot of users' and implementors' brains
16:29:41 [Souri]
+1 to MacTed we need to reference something outside of default (connection) schema
16:29:58 [ericP]
cygri: we currently say that if you leave out rr:tableOwner, we'd use the default connection
16:30:20 [ericP]
... in a SQL query, you can explicitly name a schema and user
16:30:24 [Souri]
I thought it was default schema issue was already decided that: if you do not specify a schema, it will automatically use the default (connection) schema
16:30:31 [ericP]
... so this isn't specific to tableName
16:31:21 [Souri]
q+
16:31:27 [mhausenblas]
ack Souri
16:31:31 [dmcneil]
+1 to proposal on table
16:31:55 [MacTed]
-1 to dropping tableOwner
16:32:09 [ericP]
MacTed: addressing vendor-specific notions like owner is not address by dropping table owner
16:32:14 [MacTed]
issue is "Owner" is vendor-specific, not SQL-standard
16:32:25 [ericP]
Souri: i thought that owner was not vendor-specific
16:32:27 [MacTed]
SQL spec sets these containers... The Database >> Catalog >> Schema >> Tables/Views >> Rows/Columns
16:32:27 [MacTed]
so use those terms...
16:32:47 [cygri]
PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-34 by dropping rr:tableOwner, and stating that rr:tableName MAY be a schema-qualified name.
16:32:50 [MacTed]
columnTable
16:32:50 [MacTed]
tableSchema
16:32:50 [MacTed]
schemaCatalog
16:32:50 [MacTed]
catalogDatabase
16:32:52 [ericP]
... we need to explicitly specificy a schema
16:33:06 [MacTed]
leave any of these out, and you're in the defaults
16:33:35 [ericP]
... we could add it to the tableName but that's a different thing called schema-qualified name
16:33:58 [ericP]
MacTed: putting all of those identifiers in a single field brings up real escaping problems
16:34:01 [cygri]
PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-35 by allowing use of quotes around SQL column/table identifiers in the mapping language; requiring that authors match the quoting style that was used when creating the identifier; follow SQL rules for case sensitivity (quoted is case sensitive; unquoted is case insensitive)
16:34:45 [ericP]
... this problem doesn't address my issue with issue-34
16:36:02 [ericP]
q+ to ask for specific use cases which aren't addressed by 34+35
16:36:11 [mhausenblas]
ack MacTed
16:36:30 [mhausenblas]
ack ericP
16:36:30 [Zakim]
ericP, you wanted to ask for specific use cases which aren't addressed by 34+35
16:36:34 [MacTed]
PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-34 by changing all vendor-specific terminology to spec-generic terminology; replacing rr:tableOwner with rr:tableSchema; and adding rr:columnTable rr:schemaCatalog rr:catalogDatabase to make complete identifier construction possible
16:37:21 [ericP]
ericP: what use cases can't be addressed at all by 34+35?
16:37:46 [ericP]
cygri: if you are writing a SQL query with case-sensitive table names, you need to put it in quotes
16:38:25 [ericP]
... if it's in a catalog, you need to use [[ FROM "catalog name"."table name" ]]
16:38:30 [Souri]
example: select * from "scott smith"."emp info";
16:38:32 [ericP]
... this is already the case
16:39:51 [ericP]
cygri: my proposal for 34 is to put it in one property
16:40:47 [ericP]
... if someone wants to address a table in another schema, they'd reflexively prefix the schema name
16:40:53 [ericP]
+1
16:41:53 [mhausenblas]
PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-34 by dropping rr:tableOwner, and stating that rr:objectName MAY be a schema-qualified name.
16:42:00 [ericP]
MacTed: propose to change tableName to objectName because tableName has a very specific interpretation
16:42:12 [MacTed]
PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-34 by dropping rr:tableOwner, and stating that rr:objectName MAY be a fully-qualified name.
16:42:46 [ericP]
q+ to ask for use cases which are enhance by having schemas etc. distinguished
16:42:49 [dmcneil]
+1 to "fully-qualified"
16:42:54 [mhausenblas]
q?
16:43:13 [Souri]
how would you express: "scott smith"."emp info" ? Is it: [] rr:tableName """"scott smith"."emp info""""? I do not see any major gain over: [] rr:tableName "scott smith" ; rr:tableOwner "emp info" .
16:44:22 [dmcneil]
PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-34 by dropping rr:tableOwner, and stating that rr:tableName MAY be a fully-qualified name.
16:44:29 [cygri]
<table name> ::= <local or schema qualified name>
16:44:40 [mhausenblas]
q?
16:44:49 [mhausenblas]
ack ericP
16:44:49 [Zakim]
ericP, you wanted to ask for use cases which are enhance by having schemas etc. distinguished
16:45:17 [dmcneil]
not necessarily in the SQL queries
16:45:22 [dmcneil]
in the R2RML property values
16:46:26 [cygri]
quoting SQL spec: "Base tables and views are identified by <table name>s."
16:46:26 [Souri]
figuring out whether a given name is schema qualified or not is a hassle: separating out as rr:tableOwner (or rr:tableSchema) and rr:tableName is much easier to process
16:46:41 [Souri]
q+
16:46:45 [dmcneil]
it's whether you qualify them in SQL or in RDF
16:46:53 [mhausenblas]
ack Souri
16:47:26 [ericP]
Souri: we want to meet the Sept LC
16:48:14 [cygri]
q+
16:48:23 [ericP]
... it's a hassle to crack owner, schema and table names
16:48:39 [ericP]
... we could add another prop for the qualified name
16:49:03 [Souri]
PROPOSAL: no change or replace rr:tableOwner with rr:tableSchema
16:49:56 [mhausenblas]
ack cygri
16:50:21 [Souri]
PROPOSAL: no change or replace rr:tableOwner with rr:tableSchema, may be supplement with a new property rr:fullyQualifiedTableName
16:50:25 [ericP]
cygri: the real name for tableOwner is tableSchema
16:50:33 [ericP]
... but a schema can also have a catalog
16:50:44 [ericP]
... so you've pushed the problem on
16:50:56 [dmcneil]
+q
16:51:09 [ericP]
... so we need a third property, or four per MacTed's list
16:51:12 [mhausenblas]
ack dmcneil
16:51:23 [ericP]
... so we're complciating the language to save us some parsing
16:51:41 [ericP]
dmcneil: if we want to separate them all, then we want to address them in RDF
16:52:06 [ericP]
... in which case want them to create (and exploit) a resource
16:52:22 [Souri]
I have put in an alternate (extended) proposal
16:52:23 [ericP]
... but to move on, i think we want to wrap it all into the tableName
16:52:27 [ericP]
+1 to dmcneil
16:53:18 [Souri]
PROPOSAL: replace rr:tableOwner with rr:tableSchema *and* supplement with a new property rr:fullyQualifiedTableName
16:53:48 [ericP]
mhausenblas: we have three proposals:
16:53:57 [ericP]
... cygri's with 1 property
16:54:07 [ericP]
... MacTed's with 4
16:54:15 [ericP]
... Souri's with 3
16:54:26 [ericP]
+1 to cygri's proposal
16:54:53 [mhausenblas]
ISSUE-35?
16:54:53 [trackbot]
ISSUE-35 -- Case sensitivity of SQL identifiers -- open
16:54:53 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/35
16:55:17 [mhausenblas]
PROPOSAL: Resolve ISSUE-35 by allowing use of quotes around SQL column/table identifiers in the mapping language; requiring that authors match the quoting style that was used when creating the identifier; follow SQL rules for case sensitivity (quoted is case sensitive; unquoted is case insensitive)
16:55:29 [ericP]
second
16:55:48 [dmcneil]
reading, trying to refresh my memory
16:56:13 [ericP]
ericP: aligns well with behavior of SQL implementations?
16:56:19 [ericP]
cygri: yes
16:56:27 [dmcneil]
+q
16:56:33 [mhausenblas]
ack dmcneil
16:56:39 [ericP]
... whenever you'd make a ref to a table in SQL, you'd put the same text into the turtle string and get the same results
16:57:15 [ericP]
dmcneil: we've faced an issue around the default behavior of the DB
16:57:41 [ericP]
... we wanted to emulate the default for the DB
16:58:09 [ericP]
cygri: SQL 98 defaults to case-insensitive unless names are in quotes
16:58:34 [cygri]
This specification defines R2RML for databases that conform to Core SQL 2008, as defined in ISO/IEC 9075-1:2008 [SQL1] and ISO/IEC 9075-2:2008 [SQL2]. Processors and mappings may have to deviate from the R2RML specification in order to support databases that do not conform to this version of SQL.
16:58:38 [mhausenblas]
s/SQL 98/ SQL 2008
16:59:10 [mhausenblas]
q?
16:59:12 [ericP]
... if you want to run on something other than 2008, i don't see how we can do more to address it
16:59:26 [Souri]
+1
16:59:29 [soeren]
+1
16:59:33 [ericP]
dmcneil: i think this issue is still thorny, but support this resolution in the interest of progress
17:00:37 [ericP]
RESOLUTIONL Resolve ISSUE-35 by allowing use of quotes around SQL column/table identifiers in the mapping language; requiring that authors match the quoting style that was used when creating the identifier; follow SQL rules for case sensitivity (quoted is case sensitive; unquoted is case insensitive)
17:00:53 [ericP]
RESOLUTION: Resolve ISSUE-35 by allowing use of quotes around SQL column/table identifiers in the mapping language; requiring that authors match the quoting style that was used when creating the identifier; follow SQL rules for case sensitivity (quoted is case sensitive; unquoted is case insensitive)
17:02:04 [Seema]
I am around
17:02:22 [Souri]
I am around, but deadline bound a bit
17:02:34 [ericP]
mhausenblas: all, please view the issues in http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/open
17:02:39 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:02:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/12-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:03:34 [Zakim]
-Souri
17:03:35 [Zakim]
-dmcneil
17:03:35 [Zakim]
-EricP
17:03:36 [mhausenblas]
regrets+ Ashok
17:03:36 [Zakim]
-MacTed
17:03:37 [Zakim]
-Seema
17:03:38 [Zakim]
-soeren
17:03:43 [Zakim]
-mhausenblas
17:03:44 [Zakim]
SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has ended
17:03:45 [Zakim]
Attendees were mhausenblas, dmcneil, cygri, boris, MacTed, soeren, nunolopes, EricP, Souri, Seema
17:04:08 [mhausenblas]
trackbot, end telecon
17:04:08 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
17:04:08 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
17:04:09 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:04:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/12-rdb2rdf-minutes.html trackbot
17:04:10 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
17:04:10 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items