IRC log of html-a11y on 2011-07-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:19:42 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:19:42 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/06-html-a11y-irc
21:19:44 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
21:19:46 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
21:19:46 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
21:19:47 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
21:19:47 [trackbot]
Date: 06 July 2011
21:20:03 [JF]
zakim, this is 2119
21:20:03 [Zakim]
JF, I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 2119".
21:20:15 [JF]
zakim, this will be 2119
21:20:15 [Zakim]
ok, JF; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
21:20:31 [JF]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
21:20:33 [JF]
Chair:Janina_Sajka
21:20:35 [JF]
Scribe:John_Foliot
21:20:37 [JF]
agenda: this
21:20:38 [JF]
agenda + Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience Texted
21:20:40 [JF]
agenda + Descriptions: User Requirements Discussion Hierarchical
21:20:41 [JF]
agenda + Navigation: Progress Checkin Actions Review
21:20:43 [JF]
agenda + http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
21:20:44 [JF]
agenda +Other Business?
21:20:46 [JF]
agenda + be done
21:21:26 [JF]
zakim, show agenda
21:21:26 [Zakim]
I see 11 items remaining on the agenda:
21:21:27 [Zakim]
4. Subteam Reports: Canvas; Media; Text; Bug Triage [from janina]
21:21:30 [Zakim]
5. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from janina]
21:21:32 [Zakim]
6. Other Business [from janina]
21:21:34 [Zakim]
7. Identify Scribe for 7 July http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List [from janina]
21:21:37 [Zakim]
8. be done [from janina]
21:21:39 [Zakim]
9. Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience Texted [from JF]
21:21:42 [Zakim]
10. Descriptions: User Requirements Discussion Hierarchical [from JF]
21:21:43 [Zakim]
11. Navigation: Progress Checkin Actions Review [from JF]
21:21:44 [Zakim]
12. http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from JF]
21:21:45 [Zakim]
13. Other Business? [from JF]
21:21:45 [Zakim]
14. be done [from JF]
21:21:59 [JF]
zakim, drop agendum4
21:21:59 [Zakim]
sorry, JF, I don't know what conference this is
21:22:15 [JF]
zakim, this is 2119
21:22:15 [Zakim]
JF, I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 2119".
21:22:25 [JF]
zakim, this will be 2119
21:22:26 [Zakim]
ok, JF; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
21:22:42 [JF]
zakim, drop agendum 4
21:22:42 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Subteam Reports: Canvas; Media; Text; Bug Triage, dropped
21:22:50 [JF]
zakim, drop agendum 5
21:22:50 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open, dropped
21:23:01 [JF]
zakim, drop agendum 6
21:23:01 [Zakim]
agendum 6, Other Business, dropped
21:23:06 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM has now started
21:23:13 [JF]
zakim, drop agendum 7
21:23:13 [Zakim]
agendum 7, Identify Scribe for 7 July http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List, dropped
21:23:15 [Zakim]
+??P11
21:23:27 [JF]
zakim, show agenda
21:23:27 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
21:23:29 [Zakim]
8. be done [from janina]
21:23:31 [Zakim]
9. Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience Texted [from JF]
21:23:34 [Zakim]
10. Descriptions: User Requirements Discussion Hierarchical [from JF]
21:23:36 [Zakim]
11. Navigation: Progress Checkin Actions Review [from JF]
21:23:37 [Zakim]
12. http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from JF]
21:23:37 [janina]
janina has joined #html-a11y
21:23:38 [Zakim]
13. Other Business? [from JF]
21:23:38 [Zakim]
14. be done [from JF]
21:23:46 [JF]
zakim, drop agendum 8
21:23:46 [Zakim]
agendum 8, be done, dropped
21:23:57 [JF]
zakim, reorder agenda
21:23:57 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'reorder agenda', JF
21:24:15 [janina]
trackbot start meeting
21:24:18 [JF]
janina, I've already loaded the conference
21:24:23 [JF]
'it's all ready
21:24:34 [janina]
Hey, John! Big tech problems here today!
21:24:53 [JF]
zakim, show agenda
21:24:53 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
21:24:55 [Zakim]
9. Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience Texted [from JF]
21:24:58 [Zakim]
10. Descriptions: User Requirements Discussion Hierarchical [from JF]
21:25:00 [Zakim]
11. Navigation: Progress Checkin Actions Review [from JF]
21:25:02 [Zakim]
12. http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from JF]
21:25:03 [Zakim]
13. Other Business? [from JF]
21:25:05 [Zakim]
14. be done [from JF]
21:25:43 [janina]
Looks like #12 belongs to #11
21:25:48 [Zakim]
+John_Foliot
21:26:52 [JF]
zakim, drop agendum 9
21:26:52 [Zakim]
agendum 9, Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience Texted, dropped
21:27:00 [silvia]
silvia has joined #html-a11y
21:27:00 [JF]
zakim, drop agendum 10
21:27:00 [Zakim]
agendum 10, Descriptions: User Requirements Discussion Hierarchical, dropped
21:27:06 [JF]
zakim, drop agendum 11
21:27:06 [Zakim]
agendum 11, Navigation: Progress Checkin Actions Review, dropped
21:27:14 [JF]
zakim, drop agendum 12
21:27:14 [Zakim]
agendum 12, http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open, dropped
21:27:22 [JF]
zakim, drop agendum 12
21:27:22 [Zakim]
agendum 12, http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open, dropped
21:27:34 [JF]
zakim, drop agendum 13
21:27:34 [Zakim]
agendum 13, Other Business?, dropped
21:27:52 [JF]
zakim, drop agendum 14
21:27:52 [Zakim]
agendum 14, be done, dropped
21:28:03 [JF]
agenda + Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience Texted
21:28:05 [JF]
agenda + Descriptions: User Requirements Discussion Hierarchical
21:28:07 [JF]
agenda + Navigation: Progress Checkin Actions Review zakim, drop http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
21:28:09 [JF]
agenda +Other Business?
21:28:11 [JF]
agenda + be done
21:28:58 [Zakim]
+ +44.844.800.aaaa
21:29:30 [Sean]
Sean has joined #html-a11y
21:30:56 [Zakim]
-John_Foliot
21:31:26 [Zakim]
+John_Foliot
21:33:05 [Zakim]
+ +28012aabb
21:33:12 [silvia]
zakim, aabb is me
21:33:12 [Zakim]
+silvia; got it
21:33:53 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
21:33:53 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
21:34:11 [JF]
zakim, who's here?
21:34:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P11, +44.844.800.aaaa, John_Foliot, silvia (muted)
21:34:13 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Sean, silvia, RRSAgent, JF, MikeSmith, Zakim, trackbot, [tm]
21:34:45 [JF]
zakim, aaaa is Sean_Hayes
21:34:45 [Zakim]
+Sean_Hayes; got it
21:38:07 [Zakim]
-??P11
21:38:25 [JF]
zakim, next agendum
21:38:25 [Zakim]
agendum 15. "Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience Texted" taken up [from JF]
21:38:41 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
21:38:41 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
21:41:08 [frankolivier]
frankolivier has joined #html-a11y
21:42:22 [janina]
janina has joined #html-a11y
21:43:54 [Zakim]
+??P0
21:45:55 [silvia]
frankolivier: we are currently discussing the state of navigation - do you want to jong
21:46:00 [silvia]
s/jong/jin/
21:46:05 [silvia]
s/jin/join/
21:46:07 [frankolivier]
OMW - finishing up another meeting
21:46:34 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
21:46:49 [frankolivier]
Zakim, [Microsoft] is frankolivier
21:46:49 [Zakim]
+frankolivier; got it
21:48:52 [JF]
zakim, take up agendum 16
21:48:52 [Zakim]
agendum 16. "Descriptions: User Requirements Discussion Hierarchical" taken up [from JF]
21:49:21 [JF]
FO: the concept of using lists seems simple enough
21:49:53 [JF]
SF 1st level navigation have cue points with chapters
21:50:38 [JF]
in the spec we already have chapters, and they are defined as having cues as navigation points, but we were looking at how to add multi-level navigation
21:50:45 [JF]
which in HTML is typically done with lists
21:51:09 [JF]
so using a<ul> that starts at the chapter cues
21:52:19 [JF]
SH if something has a sub-time stamp, a duration that starts and ends inside of the cue, then it is a child point
21:52:37 [JF]
JS: this could go down to 6 levels?
21:52:44 [JF]
SH: as many as you like
21:53:11 [JF]
with this we need to get more agreement on what the HTML should look like if we come up with something new
21:53:31 [silvia]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Navigation#Example_markup_with_3_hierarchical_levels
21:53:32 [frankolivier]
q+
21:53:35 [JF]
SP: agree, we already have navigation mechanism tools, we should build upon them
21:54:02 [JF]
SP: have done a markup example to show how this might look like
21:55:16 [JF]
FO: one cue opject for every first level chapter, and then for writing nav custom controls would need to parse the other levels as well
21:55:30 [JF]
SP: it would be rendered into the shadow DOM
21:55:55 [JF]
jusing JS you would probably need an HTML fragment parser
21:56:21 [JF]
FO: 2 problems to solve, give the screen reader some insight of what the various objects are in the queue
21:56:41 [JF]
for web devs who want to develop their own controls, they will need to do the parsing themselves
21:57:59 [JF]
SP: they would create the snippet (list) themselves, and then hand that to the mutable text track creation, it gets handled as any other regular track file
21:58:14 [JF]
FO: the question is more around when user is not using a screen reader
21:58:31 [JF]
let's say you want to show the full index of multi-levels on the side of the video region
21:58:50 [JF]
getting the first level Chapters is pretty easy, but parsing the other levels is more complex
21:59:30 [JF]
FO: it's awkward to have the first level exposed in one way, and the other levels exposed at another way
22:01:28 [JF]
+Q
22:02:36 [JF]
ack fra
22:04:14 [frankolivier]
q+
22:05:39 [janina]
ack j
22:06:56 [JF]
(discussion of how screen readers deal with navigation)
22:07:03 [JF]
ack fran
22:12:14 [JF]
Frank will develop some code examples, and janina will invite the Daisy folk to help us review
22:12:41 [JF]
FO; I s multi-level navigation an absolute requirement?
22:12:52 [JF]
(JF and janina echo yes at the same time)
22:13:21 [JF]
JS: We need to ensure that the spec is able to support these user-requirements, we've not discussed implementation details
22:13:43 [silvia]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Requirements#Content_navigation_by_content_structure
22:16:16 [silvia]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Navigation#3._Single-track.2C_multiple_cues
22:18:15 [JF]
WCAG Guideline 2.4 "Navigable" http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/navigation-mechanisms.html
22:18:56 [JF]
1.3.1 Info and Relationships: Information, structure, and relationships conveyed through presentation can be programmatically determined or are available in text. (Level A)
22:19:04 [JF]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#content-structure-separation
22:19:40 [JF]
1.3.2 Meaningful Sequence: When the sequence in which content is presented affects its meaning, a correct reading sequence can be programmatically determined. (Level A)
22:20:04 [JF]
+Q
22:20:34 [janina]
ack j
22:22:28 [JF]
zakim, take up agendum 15
22:22:28 [Zakim]
agendum 15. "Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience Texted" taken up [from JF]
22:26:31 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:26:31 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:27:24 [silvia]
I've not given up on aria-describedby, but I think at this point we will get nowhere unless we do an implementation and prove it one way or the other
22:31:50 [JF]
zakim, take up agendum 17
22:31:50 [Zakim]
agendum 17. "Navigation: Progress Checkin Actions Review zakim, drop http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open" taken up [from JF]
22:39:52 [silvia]
q+
22:40:13 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:40:13 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:46:14 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:46:14 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:47:14 [JF]
discussion of perhaps usiing meta-data file for specifying multiple images "stills" (chapter points)
22:47:48 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:47:48 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:48:25 [JF]
JS: a few weeks back, we discussied the longer text description and the video is paused, we were trying to figure out how this was processed
22:48:54 [JF]
SP: it depends on the screen reader user, so we need to let the end-user decide
22:49:25 [JF]
so we almost need to think of *all* extended descriptions as potentiallly going beyond fixed time-lines
22:49:43 [JF]
so Silvia has taken this to the iAccessible list, and it is under discussion there
22:49:58 [JF]
from HTML however everything else is in place
22:50:08 [JF]
JS: agree, after that it is user-agent behavior
22:50:15 [silvia]
zaim, mute me
22:50:19 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:50:19 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:50:52 [JF]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/128
22:50:56 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:50:56 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:51:06 [JF]
Follow-up on @transcript attribute on Silvia
22:51:35 [silvia]
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12964
22:52:02 [JF]
ACTION - 128 closed
22:52:02 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - -
22:52:14 [silvia]
close action-128
22:52:15 [trackbot]
ACTION-128 Follow-up on @transcript attribute closed
22:52:49 [JF]
zakim, next item
22:52:49 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, JF
22:53:03 [janina]
q?
22:53:03 [silvia]
q?
22:53:08 [JF]
queack sil
22:53:10 [silvia]
zakim, ack me
22:53:10 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
22:53:11 [Zakim]
-frankolivier
22:53:12 [JF]
ack si
22:53:19 [JF]
zakim, next item
22:53:19 [Zakim]
agendum 15. "Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience Texted" taken up [from JF]
22:53:25 [Zakim]
-silvia
22:53:35 [JF]
zakim, take up agenum 18
22:53:35 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take up agenum 18', JF
22:53:45 [JF]
zakim, take up agendum 18
22:53:45 [Zakim]
agendum 18. "Other Business?" taken up [from JF]
22:54:23 [Zakim]
-John_Foliot
22:54:24 [Zakim]
-??P0
22:54:27 [Zakim]
-Sean_Hayes
22:54:29 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM has ended
22:54:31 [Zakim]
Attendees were John_Foliot, +44.844.800.aaaa, +28012aabb, silvia, Sean_Hayes, frankolivier
22:54:31 [JF]
zakim, bye
22:54:31 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
22:54:42 [JF]
rrsagent, make logs public
22:54:52 [JF]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:54:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/06-html-a11y-minutes.html JF
22:55:30 [JF]
rrsaagent, make logs public
22:55:59 [JF]
rrsagent, please part
22:55:59 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items