IRC log of css on 2011-07-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:25:47 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #css
15:25:47 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/06-css-irc
15:25:53 [glazou]: Zakim, this will be Style
15:25:53 [Zakim]: ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
15:25:58 [glazou]: RRSAgent, make logs publoc
15:26:04 [glazou]: make logs public
15:26:12 [glazou]: RRSAgent, make logs public
15:26:50 [glazou]: hi kojiishi
15:29:09 [Florianr]: Florianr has joined #css
15:29:53 [davve]: davve has left #css
15:32:33 [anne]: I cannot make it today.
15:33:06 [anne]: As for an update. Bert is not around so FPWD request for CSSOM has not been made yet. I suppose I could do that myself, but not before this week is over.
15:38:54 [Bert]: Hi Anne, I'm back.
15:38:57 [glazou]: lol
15:39:17 [Bert]: I'm just finishing the e-mail to plh and chairs@w3.org about CSSOM
15:39:52 [glazou]: anne: you dismissed most of my proposals (css om issues) but they are REALLY needed for content editors
15:40:18 [glazou]: and I disagree with them dismissed if the WG has no opportunity to discuss them
15:41:20 [glazou]: you just have no idea how important they are for editors
15:42:29 [anne]: Why is the WG not discussing them then?
15:42:38 [anne]: That's what the mailing list is for, no?
15:42:55 [glazou]: because that's my job to ask the WG to discuss them during a conf call ?
15:43:05 [anne]: Also, I'm somewhat familiar with editors. A lot of my friends are involved with writing editors of some kind.
15:43:06 [glazou]: I was waiting for your input first
15:43:32 [glazou]: good ; when they reach their 6th or 7th one, let me know :-)
15:43:34 [anne]: Wouldn't it be better to discuss this on the list?
15:44:00 [glazou]: well, yes, but your mail just closed the discussion, it's too firm
15:44:05 [glazou]: you're the editor, not the decider
15:44:06 [anne]: I think Xopus has about four major iterations. Not sure about Silk.
15:44:30 [anne]: Well if people disagree they should feel free to say so, certainly.
15:44:47 [glazou]: or agree
15:45:22 [anne]: I just don't think CSSOM is at the stage where we should add features.
15:45:27 [anne]: Well, more features.
15:45:44 [glazou]: I just disagree at least for the disabled attribute on <link> and <style>
15:45:47 [anne]: There are so much open questions that need implementation experience and implementors looking at them.
15:46:21 [glazou]: oh come on, we standardize things in CSS before implem
15:46:30 [glazou]: and w/o implem experience
15:46:36 [glazou]: that argument is not receivable
15:46:41 [anne]: Yes, but these are already implemented
15:46:44 [glazou]: nope
15:46:53 [anne]: So we need to see what can be changed and how, and what the constraints are
15:47:23 [glazou]: you want to discuss the constraints on disabled ? let'd do that :-)
15:47:26 [glazou]: let's
15:47:31 [glazou]: trivial
15:47:49 [glazou]: for the rest, ok, that requires implementors' input
15:47:59 [anne]: I'm talking about the bigger picture, not the disabled attribute in particular ;)
15:48:11 [glazou]: the bigger picture is easy, anne
15:48:18 [anne]: The disabled attribute would need to be added to HTML and the xml-stylesheet specification
15:48:22 [glazou]: the CSS OM is almost unusable in some parts, given the mess it is
15:48:23 [anne]: Well I disagree
15:48:33 [anne]: It's pretty complex
15:48:35 [glazou]: if we write a new iteration of CSS OM that is not immediately nicer and cleaner
15:48:37 [glazou]: that's not worth it
15:49:09 [glazou]: I can probably implement the disabled attribute in Gecko in 2 hours
15:49:16 [glazou]: tests included
15:49:37 [glazou]: anyway
15:49:52 [anne]: Anyway, writing a new iteration of the CSSOM is about making it more interoperable first
15:50:00 [anne]: Just adding a bunch of features is not going to help existing implementations
15:50:13 [glazou]: then we disagree on the goal
15:50:13 [anne]: It will only make it more of a mess
15:50:58 [anne]: It does have some new features, like the value API, but it requires updating the other APIs as well as they are all intertwined
15:51:11 [anne]: So the faster we get that done, the faster we can move on to new things
15:51:22 [glazou]: we'll see
15:52:31 [Kimberly]: Kimberly has joined #css
15:54:09 [anne]: I'm sure we will :)
15:54:17 [anne]: Going for dinner now, have a good meeting!
15:56:21 [glazou]: Zakim, code?
15:56:21 [Zakim]: the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), glazou
15:56:55 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:02 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
15:57:16 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
15:57:18 [arronei_]: zakim, microsoft is me
15:57:18 [Zakim]: +arronei_; got it
15:57:20 [Zakim]: +??P24
15:57:35 [Florianr]: Zakim, I am P24
15:57:35 [Zakim]: sorry, Florianr, I do not see a party named 'P24'
15:57:44 [Zakim]: +??P42
15:57:57 [Zakim]: + +1.206.552.aaaa
15:58:04 [Kimberly]: Zakim, I am P42
15:58:04 [Zakim]: sorry, Kimberly, I do not see a party named 'P42'
15:58:06 [Zakim]: +??P45
15:58:10 [glazou]: Zakim, ??P45 is me
15:58:10 [Zakim]: +glazou; got it
15:58:13 [Kimberly]: Zakim, I am ??P42
15:58:13 [Zakim]: +Kimberly; got it
15:58:19 [glazou]: eheh kojiishi
15:58:21 [glazou]: er
15:58:24 [Florianr]: Zakim, I am ??P24
15:58:24 [Zakim]: +Florianr; got it
15:58:24 [glazou]: eheh Kimberly
15:58:36 [jdaggett]: jdaggett has joined #css
15:58:37 [glazou]: Zakim's pretty strict on syntac
15:58:38 [Zakim]: +dsinger
15:58:44 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
15:58:45 [glazou]: syntaX even
15:58:53 [dsinger_]: zakim, mute dsinger
15:58:53 [Zakim]: dsinger should now be muted
15:59:06 [kojiishi]: hi glazou
15:59:07 [Zakim]: -dsinger
15:59:22 [Zakim]: +dsinger
15:59:23 [glazou]: hi kojiishi, did you see our last announcement about BlueGriffon ?
15:59:23 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
15:59:26 [Zakim]: +??P48
15:59:31 [dsinger_]: zakim, mute dsinger
15:59:31 [Zakim]: dsinger should now be muted
15:59:36 [Cathy]: Cathy has joined #css
15:59:37 [kojiishi]: ah...sorry, no. I will.
15:59:39 [Kimberly]: Salut glazou
15:59:42 [dsinger_]: zakim, who is here?
15:59:42 [Zakim]: On the phone I see arronei_, Florianr, Kimberly, +1.206.552.aaaa, glazou, dsinger (muted), ??P48
15:59:44 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Cathy, dsinger_, jdaggett, Kimberly, Florianr, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, kojiishi, nimbu, Ms2ger, Bert, Florian, karl, arronei_, anne, shepazu, krijnh, plinss,
15:59:45 [glazou]: bonjour Kimberly
15:59:46 [Zakim]: ... fantasai, lhnz, Hixie, TabAtkins, CSSWG_LogBot, jgraham, trackbot, gsnedders, hober
15:59:53 [kojiishi]: zakim, ??p48 is me
15:59:53 [Zakim]: +kojiishi; got it
15:59:56 [Zakim]: +plinss
16:00:00 [Ms2ger]: Bonjour Zakim
16:00:03 [bradk]: bradk has joined #css
16:00:04 [glazou]: kojiishi: http://bluegriffon.org/post/2011/07/05/BlueGriffon-EPUB-Edition
16:00:04 [nimbu]: Zakim: +1.206.522.aaaa is me
16:00:08 [ChrisL]: ChrisL has joined #css
16:00:10 [Zakim]: +[Apple]
16:00:15 [glazou]: who is nimbu ?
16:00:17 [hober]: Zakim, Apple has hober
16:00:17 [Zakim]: +hober; got it
16:00:21 [nimbu]: divya manian glazou
16:00:26 [glazou]: welcome !
16:00:28 [nimbu]: :)
16:00:32 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:00:57 [kojiishi]: glazou: wow! wonderful!
16:00:59 [JohnJan]: JohnJan has joined #css
16:00:59 [glazou]: :)
16:01:03 [Zakim]: -dsinger
16:01:12 [JohnJan]: Zakim, microsoft has JohnJn
16:01:16 [JohnJan]: Zakim, microsoft has JohnJan
16:01:20 [glazou]: kojiishi: should be almost alone on the market...
16:01:23 [Zakim]: +JohnJn; got it
16:01:26 [Zakim]: +JohnJan; got it
16:01:27 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
16:01:43 [Zakim]: -Florianr
16:01:52 [Zakim]: +bradk
16:01:58 [glazou]: Zakim, who is on the phone ?
16:01:59 [Zakim]: +??P29
16:02:08 [Zakim]: On the phone I see arronei_, Kimberly, +1.206.552.aaaa, glazou, kojiishi, plinss, [Apple], [Microsoft], bradk, ??P29
16:02:11 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] has JohnJan
16:02:12 [jdaggett]: zakim, ??p29 is me
16:02:13 [Zakim]: [Apple] has hober
16:02:16 [nimbu]: zakim, +1.206.522.aaaa is me
16:02:19 [Zakim]: +ChrisL
16:02:22 [nimbu]: :(
16:02:23 [Zakim]: +??P30
16:02:25 [Zakim]: +jdaggett; got it
16:02:29 [Zakim]: sorry, nimbu, I do not recognize a party named '+1.206.522.aaaa'
16:02:34 [glazou]: Zakim, aaaa is nimbu
16:02:43 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
16:02:47 [dsinger_]: zakim, mute dsinger
16:02:50 [Zakim]: +nimbu; got it
16:02:52 [Zakim]: +dsinger
16:02:56 [nimbu]: thanks glazou!
16:03:04 [Zakim]: dsinger should now be muted
16:03:12 [Zakim]: +??P43
16:03:30 [dbaron]: dbaron has joined #css
16:03:34 [Zakim]: -??P30
16:03:37 [Zakim]: +SteveZ
16:03:41 [glazou]: kojiishi: should be ready after the summer
16:03:45 [dsinger_]: zakim, who is here?
16:03:47 [Zakim]: On the phone I see arronei_, Kimberly, nimbu, glazou, kojiishi, plinss, [Apple], [Microsoft], bradk, jdaggett, ChrisL, dsinger (muted), ??P43, SteveZ
16:03:48 [Florian]: Florian has joined #css
16:03:49 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] has JohnJan
16:03:56 [Zakim]: [Apple] has hober
16:03:58 [Zakim]: On IRC I see dbaron, dsinger_, JohnJan, ChrisL, bradk, Cathy, jdaggett, Kimberly, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, kojiishi, nimbu, Ms2ger, Bert, karl, arronei_, anne, shepazu, krijnh,
16:03:59 [fantasai]: zakim, mute ??P30
16:04:02 [Zakim]: ... plinss, fantasai, lhnz, Hixie, TabAtkins, CSSWG_LogBot, jgraham, trackbot, gsnedders, hober
16:04:06 [Zakim]: +Bert
16:04:06 [smfr]: smfr has joined #css
16:04:09 [Zakim]: +dbaron
16:04:10 [Zakim]: sorry, fantasai, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ??P30
16:04:18 [fantasai]: zakim, mute P30
16:04:18 [Zakim]: sorry, fantasai, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P30
16:04:22 [Zakim]: +??P2
16:04:27 [fantasai]: zakim, mute P43
16:04:43 [Zakim]: sorry, fantasai, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P43
16:04:45 [Zakim]: +smfr
16:04:58 [fantasai]: zakim, mute ?P43
16:05:01 [Zakim]: sorry, fantasai, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ?P43
16:05:04 [fantasai]: zakim, mute ??P43
16:05:05 [Zakim]: ??P43 should now be muted
16:05:16 [fantasai]: zakim, ??P43 is fantasai
16:05:16 [Zakim]: +fantasai; got it
16:05:21 [fantasai]: zakim, unmute me
16:05:21 [Zakim]: fantasai should no longer be muted
16:05:58 [Florianr]: Florianr has joined #css
16:06:35 [fantasai]: ScribeNick: fantasai
16:07:06 [fantasai]: Topic: Additional items
16:07:13 [fantasai]: jdaggett: font same-origin restriction
16:07:22 [fantasai]: Topic: Media Fragments
16:07:32 [fantasai]: glazou: I sent email to list about that
16:07:42 [fantasai]: glazou: dbaron asked why I sent the message
16:07:57 [fantasai]: glazou: just to make sure my opinion reported to HCG was not only mine
16:08:12 [fantasai]: glazou: The question was about image fragments, e.g. for backgrounds
16:08:42 [fantasai]: glazou: can we use fragments to pick out a frame or piece of the image
16:08:43 [alexmog]: alexmog has joined #css
16:08:48 [fantasai]: glazou: to use as an image
16:09:08 [dsinger_]: Exactly. We allow it's use IF it is defined for the media type
16:09:16 [fantasai]: glazou: issue is whether that is defined in CSS or elsewhere
16:09:45 [fantasai]: chrisl: CSS isn't defining it, it's by normative reference to media fragments
16:09:50 [Zakim]: -dsinger
16:09:54 [fantasai]: ChrisL: I agree that the media type should define what the fragments mean
16:10:00 [fantasai]: ChrisL: Although they should, they often don't
16:10:15 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
16:10:17 [fantasai]: glazou: We cannot serve as a substitute for other committees' specs
16:10:28 [dsinger_]: The question is whether a conformant CSS client is required to notice and process them
16:11:04 [Zakim]: +dsinger
16:11:07 [dsinger_]: dsinger_ has joined #css
16:11:12 [fantasai]: glazou: Each media type should define things for itself
16:11:14 [ChrisL]: http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-media-frags-20110317/#media-fragment-syntax
16:11:33 [fantasai]: fantasai: Right, but we need the spec that's supposed to define things to define things
16:11:50 [dsinger_]: zakim, mute dsinger
16:11:50 [Zakim]: dsinger should now be muted
16:11:57 [fantasai]: fantasai: I don't understand what the issue is
16:12:11 [fantasai]: glazou: The issue is that we don't have to define what means a fragment identifier in URL notation.
16:12:24 [dsinger_]: zakim, unmute me
16:12:24 [Zakim]: sorry, dsinger_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:12:35 [dsinger_]: zakim, unmute dsinger
16:12:35 [Zakim]: dsinger should no longer be muted
16:12:46 [fantasai]: fantasai: Is media fragments going to define it?
16:13:02 [dsinger_]: zakim, mute dsinger
16:13:02 [Zakim]: dsinger should now be muted
16:13:11 [fantasai]: dsinger: We just have to define what happens when you use it in CSS
16:13:21 [fantasai]: ChrisL: Which is what we do already. So let's close the issue
16:13:31 [Kimberly]: No objection
16:13:37 [danielweck]: danielweck has joined #css
16:13:38 [fantasai]: glazou: ok, let's close the issue
16:14:00 [fantasai]: plinss: So, to be clear, we're not trying to define what media fragments mean.
16:14:01 [danielweck]: DANIEL W.: just regained access to internet. Joining the call now...
16:14:06 [glazou]: danielweck: ok
16:14:27 [fantasai]: Bert: There's a minor issue with the current spec. It refers to Media Fragments, but there's a parenthetical remark saying what to do with it, i.e. clipping it out
16:15:17 [fantasai]: Bert: Maybe that should not be normative
16:15:31 [fantasai]: fantasai: Here's the problem. Media Frags says which portion of the image the fragment represents
16:15:48 [fantasai]: fantasai: but it suggests things like showing the whole image and highlighting the selected rectangle
16:15:51 [fantasai]: fantasai: which is not useful to us
16:16:41 [dsinger_]: If a fragment is present and valid for the media type, the fragment is the image
16:17:05 [dsinger_]: zakim, unmute dsinger
16:17:06 [Zakim]: dsinger should no longer be muted
16:17:19 [jdaggett]: zakim, who is noisy?
16:17:30 [Zakim]: jdaggett, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (5%), Bert (15%)
16:17:35 [dsinger_]: zakim, mute dsinger
16:17:35 [Zakim]: dsinger should now be muted
16:17:45 [fantasai]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#url
16:18:01 [fantasai]: ...
16:18:15 [ChrisL]: this is ratholing from the original issue.
16:18:25 [fantasai]: smfr: The issue isn't just for CSS. If you use an image fragment in HTML, you have the same ambiguity
16:19:23 [danielweck]: DANIEL W. => damn, my usual SIP server is not working, and the Skype telephone bridge is rejecting the passcode ! :( (trying again)
16:19:31 [fantasai]: plinss: So are we requiring the UA to understand media fragments or not?
16:19:40 [fantasai]: fantasai: We are. If it's not clear, I'll make it clearer
16:19:55 [Zakim]: +??P5
16:19:56 [fantasai]: plinss points out the note about backwards compat isn't clear it's about nonconforming UAs
16:20:05 [danielweck]: Zakim, ??P5 is me
16:20:05 [Zakim]: +danielweck; got it
16:20:08 [fantasai]: Topic: Cross-origin Fonts
16:20:10 [jdaggett]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/#same-origin-restriction
16:20:13 [Zakim]: +??P8
16:20:32 [fantasai]: jdaggett: I put the wording in the editor's draft, and as some of you know, Glenn Adams from Samsung raised a formal objection a few weeks ago.
16:20:40 [alexmog]: zakim, ??p8 is me
16:20:40 [Zakim]: +alexmog; got it
16:20:52 [fantasai]: jdaggett: He's since rescinded that, but it brings up a fuzzy area where as a group we haven't resolved clearly one way or another
16:21:05 [fantasai]: jdaggett: Do we address this issue in css3-fonts, or some other spec?
16:21:19 [fantasai]: jdaggett: There are two .. with same-origin restrictions
16:21:42 [fantasai]: jdaggett: First is, a lot of licenses require blocking cross-site linking. Right now they're doing this with Refererer checking
16:21:54 [fantasai]: jdaggett: It would be nice to provide a better solution in the UA
16:22:02 [fantasai]: jdaggett: The other issue is security and attack vectors.
16:22:24 [fantasai]: jdaggett: When cross-site linking is allowed freely, there are security implications that are not clear when the design was originally created
16:22:33 [fantasai]: jdaggett: WebGL is an example of this
16:22:53 [fantasai]: jdaggett: People like Bert assert that this is only a problem with script, and should be dealt there
16:23:05 [fantasai]: jdaggett: But scripting is a part of the web platform, so we need to consider it.
16:23:25 [fantasai]: jdaggett: The issue Glenn was bringing up was that Samsung thinks that any form of restriction on content is a form of DRM and therefore they don't want it.
16:23:49 [dsinger]: dsinger has joined #css
16:23:50 [fantasai]: jdaggett: I don't think he originally understood the security considerations, but now does. But still doesn't like the first way
16:24:01 [fantasai]: jdaggett: It's a contentious issue.
16:24:11 [Zakim]: + +1.650.214.aabb
16:24:17 [fantasai]: jdaggett: What I want to resolve today is whether we address the issue in this spec.
16:24:32 [fantasai]: jdaggett: We can push it to another spec, but that just increases non-interop
16:24:51 [fantasai]: jdaggett: The current wording leaves enough wiggle room that the details can be worked out after we go to CR.
16:25:11 [fantasai]: jdaggett: If anyone wants to hold off on this, please state your opinion now.
16:25:12 [dsinger]: the sentence saying "the default same-origin for @font-face is XXX" -- what other spec. COULD that be in?
16:25:30 [Zakim]: +[Apple.a]
16:25:42 [Zakim]: -dsinger
16:25:47 [fantasai]: Florian: What Opera wants is not just to get that into another spec, our position is that the 2 issues you described in fonts, these these are [...]. The current proposal of useing same-origin policy resolves them
16:25:49 [dsinger]: zakim, [apple.a] has dsinger
16:25:49 [Zakim]: +dsinger; got it
16:26:02 [fantasai]: Florian: But Anne's From-Origin header solves them for more media types
16:26:17 [fantasai]: Florian: If we use From-Origin, then we don't need to deal with in this spec
16:26:32 [Zakim]: -danielweck
16:26:36 [fantasai]: ChrisL: No, it does need to be referred to. The crucial thing is if it's referred from @font-face, it's assumed to be sane.
16:26:49 [fantasai]: Florian: I agree that some people say that. I don't agree that it's the best way to go.
16:26:55 [Zakim]: +??P5
16:27:02 [danielweck]: Zakim, ??P5 is me
16:27:02 [Zakim]: +danielweck; got it
16:27:04 [fantasai]: Florian: Whether or not it should default to sane, it's still better to go to From-Origin
16:27:27 [fantasai]: jdaggett: I disagree in the sense that if you have a From-Origin mechanism, as Anne has specced it out, I don't think that means you can drop any sort of wording in the CSS3 Fonts spec that refers to that.
16:27:42 [fantasai]: jdaggett: Not putting that wording in makes that an optional features. E.g. someone can implement css3-fonts, and not implement From-Origin.
16:27:51 [fantasai]: jdaggett: I don't think that's a good thing, particularly from security viewpoint
16:27:51 [dsinger]: s/sane/same/
16:28:05 [fantasai]: Florianr: If we have From-Origin, but say that when you use @font-face, then saying that ..
16:28:19 [fantasai]: Florian: Then that's not very different from using same-origin policy with CORS.
16:28:50 [fantasai]: Florian: Because of that .. not doing From-Origin, and not doing it would be bad, because it's useful for more than fonts.
16:28:50 [karl]: karl has joined #CSS
16:28:54 [ChrisL]: That doesn't seema logical response at all
16:29:08 [Florian]: Florian has joined #css
16:29:27 [fantasai]: Tab: If From-Origin is useful for many things, it will be useful for many things. We do not need the super-case of implementing it for Fonts in order to make the case for the From-Origin API.
16:29:45 [fantasai]: Tab: I think From-Origin is a great idea. I don't think saying that without CSS3 Fonts depending on it, it won't get implemented.
16:30:07 [fantasai]: Florian: The issue existed before, but because of this fonts issue, if we drop it I'm afraid that while it won't be rejected, it will get sidetracked because the main driver stopped caring.
16:30:17 [fantasai]: Tab: I don't think that's true. I believe others of us are interested.
16:30:36 [fantasai]: Tab: roc believes that more things should have been same-origin by default, and it should be easy to go back and fix them to be same-origin
16:31:04 [fantasai]: jdaggett: The issue I have here is not whether From-Origin or same-origin by default is better, what I'm trying to capture is whether we're trying to capture some type of origin restriction is in this spec.
16:31:14 [fantasai]: jdaggett: or whether we're dropping it from the spec and letting it happen via some other spec
16:31:29 [fantasai]: jdaggett: That brings the problem you're concerned about, of not having fonts drive htis issue.
16:31:46 [fantasai]: dsinger: The problem is that first, you must *notice* the From-Origin header and process it
16:31:59 [fantasai]: dsinger: The second problem is that you must treat it as same-origin by default.
16:32:07 [fantasai]: s/problem/problem I'm hearing/
16:32:18 [fantasai]: dsinger: Which issue are we concerned about
16:32:47 [dbaron]: I don't think what dsinger said makes sense.
16:33:00 [fantasai]: ...
16:33:20 [fantasai]: szilles: One of the things that concerns me is that it should be possible for the average person to use fonts with licensing restrictions without going through a lot of trouble.
16:33:29 [dbaron]: since the browser can't tell whether the server knows about From-Origin
16:33:37 [fantasai]: szilles: My concern about From-Origin is that it requires the server to be set up specially before you can use the font
16:33:41 [ChrisL]: what dsinger said is a good summary and i don't see anyone on this call actually, currently, objecting to it
16:33:50 [fantasai]: szilles: But many people do not have that level of control on the server.
16:34:08 [fantasai]: szilles: If we want fonts to be used on the Web, we need to make this easy.
16:34:20 [fantasai]: Tab: Yes, it's easy, unless you don't have server control
16:34:41 [fantasai]: jdaggett: Back to the issue: do we push this to another spec, or leave it in the spec and try to work it out here
16:34:42 [ChrisL]: so the default case means that it *is* easy for the common case. no server config needed
16:35:08 [fantasai]: jdaggett: I don't want to resolve whether to use From-Origin or same-origin today, just whether to deal with it here.
16:35:19 [fantasai]: hober: I believe this is clearly the right place to say something about this issue.
16:35:40 [fantasai]: jdaggett: I do think it's the domain of the spec, but just resolve that we're dealing with it.
16:35:51 [fantasai]: dsinger: What's the "this" ppl want to push out?
16:36:06 [fantasai]: dsinger reads out his two statements
16:36:16 [fantasai]: dsinger: I can't see what other spec they could possibly be in
16:36:51 [fantasai]: Florian asserts that the first statement isn't needed (noticing From-Origin)
16:37:07 [fantasai]: Florian: We don't say anything about other HTTP headers
16:37:28 [fantasai]: dsinger: From-Origin is an addition to HTTP. It's not part of the normative HTTP spec that we reference.
16:37:48 [Zakim]: + +1.206.324.aacc
16:37:54 [fantasai]: jdaggett: What I'd like to resolve today is that the css3-fonts spec will deal with the same-origin issue, not what we should do about it. Are there objections to that?
16:37:57 [sylvaing]: sylvaing has joined #css
16:38:17 [fantasai]: Florian: I really care about From-Origin. Don't feel strongly about whether it should be talked about in this spec, although I prefer not.
16:38:32 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: CSS3 Fonts will normatively address same-origin restriction issue.
16:39:03 [ChrisL]: btw I saw a call for consensus for first public working fraft of from-origin, so its moving forward
16:39:40 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: No changes to css3-images, except fantasai's request to revert keywords to match last draft.
16:39:54 [fantasai]: ChrisL: I read through a spec, some things a little weird, but no objection to publishing.
16:39:59 [fantasai]: plinss: any objections to publishing?
16:40:13 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Publish CSS3 Images as WD.
16:40:59 [fantasai]: Brad: I had a small issue. Looks like you took a note about values of background properties being used to repeat gradients, can you put that back in?
16:41:02 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: sure
16:41:13 [fantasai]: Topic: css3-speech
16:41:33 [fantasai]: dweck: We can't request publication just yet. Processing the comments that came in the past week
16:41:56 [fantasai]: dweck: Just wanted to ask if ppl could go through replies on css3-speech issues as they come in this week, and review.
16:42:09 [fantasai]: plinss: Ok, everyone please review messages/spec and send feedback
16:42:11 [fantasai]: Topic: F2F
16:42:29 [fantasai]: sylvaing: Narrowed things down to two, one is the hotel on West Lake
16:42:44 [fantasai]: sylvaing: The only wrinkle on that is that it's not something that the MS venue dept works with.
16:42:54 [fantasai]: sylvaing: Worst case we get Mariott downtown on the waterfront
16:42:58 [fantasai]: sylvaing: Should be able to confirm by end of week
16:43:20 [fantasai]: ChrisL: Can we confirm that MS is hosting the joint SVG-CSS meeting? Because Adobe can't handle that many people.
16:43:23 [fantasai]: sylvaing: Yeah
16:43:36 [fantasai]: sylvaing: Only thing I haven't planned for is, right now assuming 30 people. Do we need more?
16:43:39 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: Seems appropriate
16:43:45 [fantasai]: sylvaing: Let me know if I need to crank it up
16:43:50 [fantasai]: dbaron: How many from SVG?
16:43:55 [fantasai]: ChrisL: 6-10
16:44:07 [fantasai]: plinss: If we can get our members to sign up on wiki page and get an accurate count, would be useful
16:44:12 [glazou]: http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/seattle-2011
16:44:27 [fantasai]: plinss: Anything else on F2F
16:44:28 [fantasai]: ?
16:44:45 [fantasai]: Topic: Charter
16:44:46 [ChrisL]: http://www.w3.org/2010/09/CSSWG/charter.html
16:44:50 [fantasai]: plinss: joint modules with FX?
16:45:07 [fantasai]: plinss: We talked about an email to www-style, haven't seen any responses
16:45:09 [plinss]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jul/0000.html
16:45:43 [smfr]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jul/att-0000/FX_Task_Force_and_Related_CSS___SVG_Specifications_and_Drafts.html
16:46:35 [fantasai]: ChrisL: Proposal to move forward was to get an extension
16:46:47 [fantasai]: ChrisL: I made the changes requested to reorder deliverables in the charter
16:47:00 [fantasai]: ChrisL: If we agree with recommendations in latest email from Vincent, I can put that in as well
16:47:19 [fantasai]: ChrisL: There was a request to do Transitions jointly
16:47:25 [fantasai]: smfr: You mean Transforms?
16:47:59 [fantasai]: ChrisL: reads out the list
16:48:07 [fantasai]: smfr: 2D/3D Transforms
16:48:11 [fantasai]: smfr: gradients
16:48:27 [ChrisL]: agree that 2d and 3d transforms should be added
16:48:32 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: Gradients is getting resolved, using a solution suggested by roc a year or two ago. Don't need any particular joint work there.
16:48:46 [glazou]: danielweck: I have a comment on voice-volume ; will send a mail
16:48:55 [fantasai]: ChrisL: There should still be coordination on that.
16:48:59 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: yes
16:49:23 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: Once we publish the next css3-images draft, I'll add some notes on making SVG gradients and CSS Images interact
16:49:37 [fantasai]: ChrisL: SVG offered to make Compositing a joint spec, if CSS is interested
16:49:46 [fantasai]: ChrisL: If not, SVG will move forward with it anyway
16:49:53 [fantasai]: ChrisL: But may have some applicability in CSS
16:49:59 [fantasai]: smfr: Might have some interaction with Filters
16:50:33 [fantasai]: ChrisL: My tendency would be to put it in joint work currently, just to cover it
16:50:41 [fantasai]: smfr: Sounds fine
16:50:48 [ChrisL]: ok will put compositing as joint
16:51:20 [fantasai]: plinss: Do you have what you need?
16:51:22 [fantasai]: ChrisL: Yes
16:51:33 [fantasai]: Topic: CSS3 Color
16:51:44 [fantasai]: plinss: We had an email raising an issue. Should we start an errata?
16:51:52 [fantasai]: ChrisL: Yes, we should start an errata.
16:51:57 [fantasai]: ChrisL: The first issue is trivial
16:52:01 [dbaron]: what's the url of this?
16:52:14 [nimbu]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jul/0025.html
16:52:21 [fantasai]: ChrisL: Just need to add "This section is non-normative" to the intro
16:52:24 [Florianr]: Just noticed something about the minutes about CSS Font and From-Origin. we talked about whether the default should be "same". The minutes mention "sane".
16:52:29 [fantasai]: ChrisL: Second one is much more serious
16:52:50 [Zakim]: -bradk
16:52:56 [fantasai]: ChrisL: Container needs to be refined for CSS, since for relpos/abspos there's different behavior
16:53:32 [fantasai]: ChrisL: Need to clarify 3.2 that treated doesn't affect the computed value
16:53:33 [Zakim]: -ChrisL
16:53:39 [Zakim]: +bradk
16:53:56 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
16:54:18 [fantasai]: dbaron: I think his proposed wording isn't quite sufficient because "treated as though it has the index: 0" also has an effect on the painting level of descendents, which this doesn't mention
16:54:22 [Zakim]: +ChrisL
16:54:57 [fantasai]: ChrisL: do you have better proposed wording?
16:55:05 [fantasai]: dbaron: I think what's there already might be OK
16:55:13 [fantasai]: smfr: What's there already is certainly better than his suggestion.
16:55:58 [dbaron]: just change "except that 'auto' is treated" to "except that a computed value of 'auto' is treated" to make it clear that it doesn't change the computed value
16:56:27 [fantasai]: smfr: Maybe "behaves as if its z-index were zero"?
16:56:42 [fantasai]: fantasai: Could work. Subjunctive implies that it is not true.
16:56:48 [Zakim]: -danielweck
16:57:06 [Zakim]: +??P1
16:57:09 [danielweck]: Zakim, ??P1 is me
16:57:09 [Zakim]: +danielweck; got it
16:57:15 [fantasai]: ChrisL: For the third we might need some email back and forth to determine best wording, but the other two I can do
16:57:20 [Zakim]: -bradk
16:57:31 [fantasai]: ACTION: ChrisL update css3-color errata to handle issues 1, 2 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jul/0025.html
16:57:31 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-337 - Update css3-color errata to handle issues 1, 2 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jul/0025.html [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-07-13].
16:58:03 [Martijnc]: Martijnc has joined #css
16:58:32 [fantasai]: Topic: CSS3 Writing Modes
16:58:45 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: I remember reading your email and thinking, man, text is hard.
16:59:01 [fantasai]: Florian: The content of the email, no, but whether we should keep this approach we can do in 2 minutes
16:59:08 [fantasai]: Florian: I think it's a good approach, keep going.
16:59:09 [dbaron]: (which mail?)
16:59:16 [plinss]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jul/0004.html
17:00:09 [fantasai]: jdaggett: I think we need something like this as a default, but going back to Eric Muller's statement, I think we need a good default, but also an escape hatch.
17:00:26 [fantasai]: jdaggett: Someone should be able to define for their text, these characters are always oriented as such-and-such
17:00:41 [fantasai]: fantasai: Do we need to have that character-level control in level 3?
17:00:59 [fantasai]: jdaggett: text-orientation in general is nothing you can fake. You need a standard behavior.
17:01:59 [fantasai]: Florian: We need the default in level 3. Do we need the escape hatch in level 3. I think not
17:02:28 [fantasai]: szilles: If you don't have a clear statement of what the defaults are, you can't do anything.
17:02:37 [fantasai]: szilles: And I don't think we have a clear statement of what the defaults are.
17:02:45 [fantasai]: jdaggett: That's what fantasai is trying to define here.
17:02:49 [Zakim]: -glazou
17:03:02 [fantasai]: szilles: Don't recall what the escape hatch issue was. Markup is an escape hatch.
17:03:10 [fantasai]: jdaggett: I would ask that we put this on the top of the agenda next week.
17:03:19 [fantasai]: jdaggett: If we try to address at the end of the call, will always be starved for time.
17:03:29 [fantasai]: Florian: I will only add that this is worth thinking about so don't drop it yet.
17:03:36 [fantasai]: plinss: So top of call next week then.
17:03:38 [Zakim]: -dbaron
17:03:39 [Zakim]: - +1.650.214.aabb
17:03:39 [Zakim]: -jdaggett
17:03:40 [Zakim]: -ChrisL
17:03:40 [Zakim]: -[Apple]
17:03:42 [Zakim]: - +1.206.324.aacc
17:03:42 [Zakim]: -arronei_
17:03:43 [Zakim]: -SteveZ
17:03:44 [Zakim]: -nimbu
17:03:46 [Zakim]: -danielweck
17:03:47 [fantasai]: Meeting closed.
17:03:49 [Zakim]: -Kimberly
17:03:50 [Zakim]: -Florian
17:03:52 [Zakim]: -smfr
17:03:54 [Zakim]: -kojiishi
17:03:56 [Zakim]: -plinss
17:03:57 [Florianr]: Florianr has left #css
17:03:58 [Zakim]: -[Apple.a]
17:04:01 [Zakim]: -Bert
17:04:02 [Zakim]: -fantasai
17:04:18 [fantasai]: fantasai's comments to be inserted: that the rest of stuff in writing-modes is higher priority than a char-level escape hatch, so we shouldn't hold up the spec for that.
17:04:26 [nimbu]: plinss: the seattle wikipage is not editable
17:04:30 [nimbu]: i mean seattle f2f
17:04:34 [nimbu]: :/
17:04:45 [plinss]: ? checking...
17:04:55 [nimbu]: http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/seattle-2011
17:05:01 [fantasai]: fixed
17:05:06 [fantasai]: try now
17:05:12 [nimbu]: yep see those buttons
17:05:33 [fantasai]: nimbu, what's your login?
17:05:38 [plinss]: try it now
17:05:38 [nimbu]: divya
17:06:05 [fantasai]: odd...
17:06:26 [fantasai]: divya, can you edit http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1 ?
17:06:37 [plinss]: I just added her to the wg group
17:06:52 [nimbu]: yep seems so
17:06:58 [fantasai]: ah
17:07:05 [fantasai]: that explains it :)
17:07:09 [nimbu]: :)
17:08:52 [Zakim]: disconnecting the lone participant, alexmog, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
17:08:53 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:08:57 [Zakim]: Attendees were arronei_, +1.206.552.aaaa, glazou, Kimberly, Florianr, dsinger, kojiishi, plinss, hober, JohnJn, JohnJan, bradk, ChrisL, jdaggett, nimbu, SteveZ, Bert, dbaron, smfr,
17:09:00 [Zakim]: ... fantasai, Florian, danielweck, alexmog, +1.650.214.aabb, [Apple], +1.206.324.aacc
17:17:59 [Ms2ger]: Zakim, make minutes public
17:17:59 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'make minutes public', Ms2ger
17:18:22 [ChrisL]: rrsagent, make logs public
17:18:46 [ChrisL]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:18:46 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/06-css-minutes.html ChrisL
17:40:12 [alexmog]: alexmog has joined #css
17:45:01 [dbaron]: dbaron has joined #css
17:57:46 [jdaggett]: jdaggett has joined #css
18:15:14 [anne]: anne has joined #css
18:32:35 [nimbupani]: nimbupani has joined #css
19:24:51 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #css
21:06:26 [nimbupani]: nimbupani has joined #css
21:18:00 [dbaron]: dbaron has joined #css
21:25:00 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: Did you restore Brad's note yet? I'd like to put css3-images in the publication pipeline..
21:25:26 [TabAtkins]: Not yet. Been dealing with my stack of emails since Friday (because yesterday was a google holiday too).
21:25:29 [TabAtkins]: I can do it real quick.
21:25:39 [fantasai]: ok, do it real quick :)
21:25:45 [fantasai]: and then I'll start prepping for a webreq
21:34:12 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Done.
21:44:39 [fantasai]: TabAtkins: thanks
23:30:30 [dbaron]: dbaron has joined #css
23:31:42 [arronei]: arronei has joined #css