13:59:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #hcg
13:59:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/01-hcg-irc
13:59:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
13:59:47 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML_CG
13:59:47 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_CG()10:00AM already started
13:59:48 <trackbot> Meeting: Hypertext Coordination Group Teleconference
13:59:48 <trackbot> Date: 01 July 2011
13:59:59 <ddahl> zakim, who is here?
13:59:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P2, Debbie_Dahl
14:00:04 <glazou> Zakim, ??P2 is me
14:00:04 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
14:02:27 <ddahl> regrets:paul_cotton, kazuyuki
14:03:02 <janina> janina has joined #hcg
14:03:11 <Zakim> +EricP
14:03:11 <kaz> kaz has joined #hcg
14:03:13 <janina> zakim, code?
14:03:13 <Zakim> the conference code is 4824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), janina
14:03:21 <Zakim> + +33.4.92.38.aaaa - is perhaps Bert
14:03:37 <Steven> zakim, code?
14:03:37 <Zakim> the conference code is 4824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Steven
14:03:42 <Zakim> +??P14
14:03:42 <Bert> Bert has joined #hcg
14:03:57 <raphael> why the pass code 4824 is not valid ?
14:04:18 <janina> zakim, ??P14 is Janina
14:04:18 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
14:04:56 <glazou> worked for me immediately but I was 1st on the call
14:05:13 <Zakim> +Steven
14:05:17 <ddahl> zakim, who is here?
14:05:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, Debbie_Dahl, shepazu, Bert, Janina, Steven
14:05:38 <Steven> It didn't work for me the first time; had to repeat it; in the second time
14:08:12 <Steven_> Steven_ has joined #hcg
14:08:21 <Steven_> Scribenick: Steven_
14:08:27 <Steven_> scribe: Steven
14:08:35 <Zakim> + +33.9.52.30.aabb
14:08:46 <Steven_> rrsagenat, make minutes
14:08:52 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes
14:08:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/01-hcg-minutes.html Steven_
14:11:03 <Steven_> rrsagent, make log public
14:11:11 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes
14:11:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/01-hcg-minutes.html Steven_
14:11:27 <Steven_> Topic: Media fragemtns
14:11:36 <Steven_> s/mtns/ments
14:12:24 <Steven_> Raphael: Media fragments has gone to last call twice, one set of comments not yet resolved
14:12:50 <Steven_> ... a number of things say that the fragment should be rendered
14:13:01 <Steven_> ... informative in the spec, not required for the implementor
14:13:59 <Steven_> ... Do you think that way we have defined media fragments clashes with the SVG definition?
14:14:53 <shepazu> (http://www.example.com/multiresimage#xywh=10,20,30,40 )
14:14:57 <Steven_> ... and do you think that CSS should be able to define the interpretation of a fragment URL?
14:15:11 <Steven_> Glazou: The CSS parser has to validate the URL
14:15:32 <Steven_> ... and whether to throw a CSS error
14:15:49 <Steven_> ... and drop the rulw
14:15:53 <Steven_> s/lw/le/
14:15:57 <shepazu> q+
14:16:10 <Steven_> ... and I don't see another way of doing it
14:16:31 <Steven_> Doug: It's up to the parsing engine on the UA to interpret URLs
14:16:48 <Steven_> ... since that's what the RFC says
14:16:58 <Steven_> Glazou: It is also common proactice
14:17:03 <Steven_> s/oa/a/
14:17:45 <Steven_> Raphael: Is the syntax the same?
14:17:59 <Steven_> Glazou: Exactly as defined by the RFC
14:18:47 <Steven_> (RFC 3986)
14:18:52 <raphael> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#url
14:19:16 <Steven_> Raphael: OK, so in the above section you reference the fragment identifiers
14:19:49 <Steven_> ... from a syntax point of view that is OK, but how do you interpret the fragment?
14:20:15 <Steven_> Steven: So you don't interpret the fragment?
14:20:21 <Steven_> Glazou: Right.
14:21:23 <Steven_> Raphael: But your spec defers to the mimetype for the meaning of the fragment?
14:21:39 <Steven_> ... for many specs there is no definition of what a fragment means
14:21:56 <Steven_> ... But you do provide interpretation of fragments
14:22:17 <Steven_> ... for instance clipping out a part of an image
14:22:41 <Steven_> ... fine for me, but that should really be defined by the resource type, not by CSS
14:23:16 <Bert> q+ to say that the CSS image spec should probably make that sentence about MF non-normative.
14:23:20 <Steven_> ... Media Fragments wants to give guidance when registering a mimetype
14:23:24 <shepazu> q-
14:24:13 <Steven_> Bert: I agree with Glazou's position, I think we should make it nonnormative
14:24:55 <Steven_> Glazou: The examples on images, it is not the job of CSS to clip it. It is the user agent that does it
14:25:05 <Bert> -> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#url section 4.1 of editor's draft of css3-images
14:25:12 <Steven_> ... CSS is *requesting* something there.
14:25:32 <Steven_> Raphael: SO we agree that there should be no clash between the different specs
14:25:38 <Steven_> s/SO/So/
14:26:27 <Steven_> Glazou: So, the presence of an equals sign allows the discrimination between a reg. ID and an XPath
14:26:47 <Steven_> ... to know what kind of thing they are, you have to stop parsing
14:27:30 <Steven_> Raphael: The Media Fragments spec defines something that is a subset of the syntax for fragments
14:27:44 <Steven_> ... a set of name value pairs
14:28:01 <shepazu> q+
14:28:09 <Steven_> ... so we have to parse to see if it is a media fragment URI
14:28:11 <Bert> q-
14:28:14 <Steven_> ... so I agree you have to parse
14:28:44 <Steven_> Daniel: This is not an issue for CSS/Media fragments, but for the rendering layer
14:28:52 <Steven_> Raphael: I tend to agree
14:29:16 <Steven_> ... except for the case where an image container contains more than one image
14:29:28 <Steven_> ... of different types
14:29:42 <Steven_> Glazou: Up to the image format
14:30:01 <Steven_> Raphael: Well the CSS people want to know how to do it
14:30:16 <Steven_> Glazou: Not our role to do that; external to CSS.
14:30:32 <Steven_> Raphael: Good; we shall note the case and say it is undefined
14:30:55 <raphael> q?
14:31:40 <Steven_> Doug: The syntax for media fragments seems fine
14:32:05 <Steven_> ... audio/video commands
14:32:40 <Steven_> ... clipping of audio/video
14:32:57 <Steven_> ... but what if that video file is just one of three on the HTML page
14:33:03 <Steven_> s/page/page?/
14:33:34 <Steven_> Glazou: xywh is not an id, it is a comment
14:33:41 <glazou> s/comment/command
14:33:57 <Steven_> Doug: I meant, what if I link to a youtube video?
14:34:56 <Steven_> Raphael: This is a frequent case. Already planned to propagate the hash to the actually sourced video
14:35:51 <Steven_> Glazou: Example please?
14:35:59 <shepazu> http://www.example.com/example.ogv#t=10,20
14:36:00 <Steven_> Doug: 
14:36:01 <raphael> #t=30,120 for example
14:36:15 <shepazu> http://www.example.com/example.html#t=10,20
14:37:10 <glazou> then <video id="t"> and #t vs. #t=10,20
14:37:11 <Steven_> Doug: In the second example the big content providers will rpoagate the #t= to the actual video
14:37:27 <Steven_> Raphael: Almost, The spec says nothing normative
14:38:03 <Steven_> ... in the example the HTML will try to find an ID called t=10,20
14:38:14 <Steven_> ... but youtube will do something special
14:38:38 <Steven_> Glazou: Why a hash instead of a "?" ?
14:39:12 <Steven_> Raphael: There's a big section in the spec on the different behaviours
14:39:21 <Steven_> ... you can use a ? as well
14:39:52 <Steven_> ... with a ? you get a new resource, which is not cached etc
14:40:31 <Steven_> ... with a # you can cache, and you have the whole root resource as well
14:40:57 <Steven_> ... we have tried to define it so that nothing breaks. We have found no counter-example yet.
14:41:23 <shepazu> q+
14:41:46 <Bert> (Error in minutes? A "?" doesn't influence caching. Caching is controled by HTTP headers, not by the shape of the URL.)
14:42:12 <Steven_> Glazou: So you are targetting media, but a web page is not media
14:42:37 <raphael> indeed, I just say it just creates a completely new resource which has nothing to do from the "parent" resource
14:42:56 <Yves> Yves has joined #hcg
14:43:26 <Zakim> +Yves
14:43:32 <Zakim> -Yves
14:43:45 <Zakim> +Yves
14:43:54 <Steven_> Raphael: The spec doesn't recommend what happens with HTML pages, it is just what some sites do
14:44:29 <Steven_> Doug: I will email my problems; I think we are setting ourselves for trouble
14:45:25 <Steven_> Glazou: what if "rewind" is a command for videos and there is a "rewind" ID in the document ?
14:45:44 <Steven_> Steven: #rewind isn't a MF URL, no problem
14:45:49 <raphael> Raphael: this has nothing to do with media fragments
14:46:38 <Steven_> Doug: The question is whether there are existing clashes with other fragment syntaxes
14:47:09 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-SVGParam-20090616/
14:47:17 <Steven_> Doug: I have a question about SVG
14:47:32 <Steven_> ... SVG parameters, not ther eyet, but specced out
14:47:57 <Steven_> ... minting URLs that acvt on the existing resource and passes name/value pairs
14:48:18 <Steven_> s/acvt/act/
14:49:23 <Steven_> s/ther e/there /
14:49:33 <glazou> s/rapahel/raphael
14:49:39 <Steven_> ... I hope we can avoid clashes
14:50:18 <raphael> q?
14:51:13 <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/param/master/SVGParam.html
14:51:34 <janina> +1 to Doug. I see the problem here is how, not whether to specify something/somewhere within a doc/object.
14:51:58 <Steven_> Yves: SVG is an XML media type so should obey rfc 3023
14:52:15 <Steven_> ... then you have to use xpointer
14:52:34 <Steven_> ... which is different from formats that are not XML-based
14:53:44 <Steven_> Doug: Don't assume that SVG will be XML-only
14:54:06 <Steven_> ... maybe you and I could discuss the SVG param stuff sometime
14:54:32 <Steven_> Glazou: Origianl question, conflics with CSS< ther eis no problem
14:54:39 <Steven_> Raphael: I tend to agree
14:54:55 <Steven_> s/ianl/inal
14:55:04 <Steven_> s/</,/
14:55:11 <Steven_> s/ther e/there /
14:55:45 <Steven_> Debbie: I think we have a resolution here
14:56:07 <Steven_> Raphael: Np problem with CSS and SVG, need to watch out with SVG2
14:56:10 <glazou> q+
14:56:15 <Steven_> s/Np/No/
14:56:31 <Steven_> Glazou: THe CSS WG needs to look at this, next Wednesday
14:56:39 <Steven_> s/TH/Th
14:57:12 <Steven_> Doug: SVG is a timed media that uses # for other purpoises, but I need to check
14:57:21 <Steven_> s/po/po
14:57:27 <Steven_> s/poi/po
14:57:43 <Steven_> Glazou: SO we will go back to our WGs and come back to the HCG
14:57:54 <Steven_> Debbie: 15th July?
14:58:04 <Steven_> Bert: Bad day for me (French holiday)
14:58:10 <Steven_> s/SO/So/
14:58:27 <Steven_> Glazou: In any case we will send an email to the HCG
14:58:34 <shepazu> q-
14:58:34 <glazou> q-
14:59:23 <Steven_> Raphael: Thank you for this discussion. Looking forward to your responses
14:59:38 <Steven_> Doug: Already implementations, and tests?
14:59:44 <Steven_> Raphael: Ongoing
14:59:55 <Steven_> ... Firefox and Opera in so far
15:00:05 <Steven_> ... and big servers
15:00:52 <Steven_> [ADJOURN]
15:01:01 <Steven_> rrsagent, make them
15:01:01 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make them', Steven_.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:01:03 <Zakim> -shepazu
15:01:05 <Zakim> -Yves
15:01:11 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/01-hcg-minutes.html Steven_
15:01:16 <Yves> Yves has left #hcg
15:01:37 <Zakim> -glazou
15:01:41 <Zakim> -Steven
15:01:43 <janina> janina has left #hcg
15:01:46 <Zakim> -Debbie_Dahl
15:01:47 <Zakim> -Janina
15:01:51 <Zakim> -Bert
15:01:52 <Zakim> -raphael
15:01:52 <Zakim> HTML_CG()10:00AM has ended
15:01:53 <Zakim> Attendees were Debbie_Dahl, glazou, +33.4.92.38.aaaa, shepazu, Janina, Steven, +33.9.52.30.aabb, raphael, Yves
15:02:41 <ddahl> chair:Debbie_Dahl
15:02:56 <ddahl> rrsagent, make minutes
15:02:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/01-hcg-minutes.html ddahl
15:03:24 <Bert> Bert has left #hcg
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17:07:34 <Zakim> Zakim has left #hcg