16:34:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:34:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-ua-irc
16:34:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:34:11 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
16:34:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:34:13 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 26 minutes
16:34:14 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:34:14 <trackbot> Date: 23 June 2011
16:34:36 <JAllan> Chair: JimAllan, KellyFord
16:49:07 <JAllan> Agenda+ Announcements
16:49:17 <JAllan> agenda+ Create Realistic Publication  timeline
16:49:30 <JAllan> Agenda+ review of  Editor's Draft comments from group, generate status questions for WD publication
16:49:59 <JAllan> Agenda+ Survey 
16:50:00 <JAllan> Agenda+ Continue work on IER items needing content
16:53:13 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #ua
16:58:29 <Greg> Greg has joined #ua
16:59:41 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:59:48 <Zakim> +jallan
16:59:57 <Jan> Jan has joined #ua
17:00:07 <Jan> zakim, code?
17:00:07 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Jan
17:00:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:00:50 <Jan> zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
17:00:50 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
17:01:00 <kford> kford has joined #ua
17:01:30 <Zakim> +Greg
17:01:47 <kford> zakim, agenda?
17:01:47 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:01:48 <Zakim> 1. Announcements [from JAllan]
17:01:49 <Zakim> 2. Create Realistic Publication  timeline [from JAllan]
17:01:50 <Zakim> 3. review of  Editor's Draft comments from group, generate status questions for WD publication [from JAllan]
17:01:52 <Zakim> 4. Survey [from JAllan]
17:01:54 <Zakim> 5. Continue work on IER items needing content [from JAllan]
17:02:03 <Jan> zakim, who's here?
17:02:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see jallan, Jan, Greg
17:02:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see kford, Jan, Greg, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
17:02:31 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:02:36 <Zakim> +Jeanne
17:02:40 <kford> zakim, microsoft is kford
17:02:40 <Zakim> +kford; got it
17:04:41 <kford> zakim, agenda?
17:04:41 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:04:42 <Zakim> 1. Announcements [from JAllan]
17:04:43 <Zakim> 2. Create Realistic Publication  timeline [from JAllan]
17:04:44 <Zakim> 3. review of  Editor's Draft comments from group, generate status questions for WD publication [from JAllan]
17:04:47 <Zakim> 4. Survey [from JAllan]
17:04:49 <Zakim> 5. Continue work on IER items needing content [from JAllan]
17:05:14 <JAllan> scribe: jallan
17:05:30 <JAllan> regrets: MarkH, SimonH
17:06:09 <kford> JA: Face to face 11/3-4, register.
17:06:15 <kford> zakim, agenda?
17:06:15 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:06:17 <Zakim> 1. Announcements [from JAllan]
17:06:18 <JAllan> Zakim, open item 1
17:06:19 <Zakim> 2. Create Realistic Publication  timeline [from JAllan]
17:06:22 <Zakim> 3. review of  Editor's Draft comments from group, generate status questions for WD publication [from JAllan]
17:06:24 <Zakim> 4. Survey [from JAllan]
17:06:26 <Zakim> 5. Continue work on IER items needing content [from JAllan]
17:06:28 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Announcements" taken up [from JAllan]
17:06:33 <JAllan> Next face to face Meeting: 3-4 November 2011 at W3C Technical Plenary
17:06:34 <JAllan> in Santa Clara, CA, USA. - http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/
17:06:36 <JAllan> HTML 5 review http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Instructions_for_commenting_on_HTML5
17:06:37 <JAllan> Proposals for definition of user agents
17:07:37 <JAllan> zakim, close item 1
17:07:37 <Zakim> agendum 1, Announcements, closed
17:07:38 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:07:40 <Zakim> 2. Create Realistic Publication  timeline [from JAllan]
17:07:48 <JAllan> zakim, next item
17:07:48 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Create Realistic Publication  timeline" taken up [from JAllan]
17:09:14 <JAllan> current timeline in charter http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/uawg_charter
17:09:54 <JAllan> js: W3 overall has gotten criticism about slow guideline creation
17:10:30 <JAllan> kf: having read new WD, where do folks think we are?
17:11:17 <JAllan> jr: still have a way to go. problem...we don't know what we don't know. Issues can pop up at any time.  its all still a guess
17:11:45 <JAllan> gl: most delays on our end come from us. haven't gotten much feed back. 
17:12:51 <Zakim> -jallan
17:13:00 <JAllan> kf: in process of writing review of WD. looking pretty good.
17:13:11 <Zakim> +jallan
17:13:26 <JAllan> discussion of process
17:15:21 <JAllan> current charter: lc-aug 2010, cr-feb 2011, pr- aug 2011, rec-0ct 2011
17:15:49 <JAllan> js: don't need 2 implementations until CR
17:16:25 <JAllan> kf: Guidelines is good. they are aspirational. getting implementations may be difficult.
17:16:54 <JAllan> jr: meeting GLs can be met by addons. there are lots out there.
17:17:13 <JAllan> js: testing materials must be done by CR
17:18:20 <JAllan> ...must test implementations before we can get out of CR
17:18:56 <JAllan> kf: GL and SC need about 2 months work to be ready for LC
17:19:21 <JAllan> ... October at earliest.
17:19:48 <JAllan> kf: implementing document feels rougher than the GL doc
17:20:46 <JAllan> ... don't think we can get both docs ready by October
17:21:27 <JAllan> ja: have f2f coming up
17:22:11 <JAllan> js: add extra month for fudge. then 3 months for LC. do a WD pub in the next week or 2. 
17:22:33 <JAllan> ... do we want another WD before LC
17:23:14 <JAllan> jr: have a pile of things to go over from the current review.
17:24:01 <JAllan> js: publish WD in Sept.
17:24:35 <JAllan> kf: pub 1st week of July then early Sept.
17:25:51 <JAllan> ... will we be happy with content by mid Sept.
17:26:10 <JAllan> gl: we have to watch for slippage.
17:26:30 <JAllan> kf: need to move into 'ship mode', start locking things down.
17:27:15 <JAllan> ...no more smithing, discussing, etc. on some issue.
17:28:11 <JAllan> kf: finish last bit of review. need to stop reorganizing. need to change group behavior. We have a descent set of guideline. 
17:29:26 <JAllan> kf: propose: 2 WD in July and Sept. work at f2f, lc in late november
17:30:57 <JAllan> jr: want developers to review the WD in Sept. work on comments in Oct., final edits at f2f, WD in late Nov. then LC in Jan.
17:31:37 <JAllan> ... haven't have many comments from developers at any time
17:33:19 <JAllan> gl: look at calendar, to check on conflicts. we are supposed to be reviewing html5 for next few weeks.
17:33:55 <JAllan> ... getting reviews in Aug. from Europeans will be difficult.
17:34:15 <JAllan> ... whats going on the end of September. will we get a good review?
17:35:15 <JAllan> kf: Jan 2012 is doable
17:36:42 <JAllan> ... Sep. WD can push for UA developers to review. then WD in Nov. after f2f, and LC in Jan.
17:37:39 <JAllan> js: generally don't get lots of comments till LC
17:38:37 <JAllan> kf: shares his plans for internal MS review
17:39:02 <JAllan> js: are we in agreement for LC in January?
17:39:41 <JAllan> kf: any objections to 3 WD in July, Sept. and Nov, with LC in January.
17:40:41 <JAllan> gl: where do tests and implementations come in.
17:41:11 <JAllan> js: should have some done by last call. create test cases to make sure SC make sense.
17:42:06 <JAllan> kf: thinks we can work through those. implementation doc has helped with thinking about testing. 
17:42:38 <JAllan> Resolved: 3 WD in July, Sept. and Nov, with LC in January.
17:43:55 <JAllan> js: ATAG has been a year in getting to second last call
17:44:10 <JAllan> jr: but had to do substantial rewrites, etc.
17:45:15 <JAllan> js: thinks we will have to do a second LC, because few comments so far.
17:45:43 <JAllan> kf: sept?
17:46:58 <JAllan> js: yes, Oct 2012 is better. then second last call in July 2013
17:47:21 <JAllan> kf: PR?
17:48:01 <JAllan> js: CR test all implementations for all SC (WCAG was 9 months)
17:48:20 <JAllan> ... wcag was complex. so is UAAG, we have more SC
17:48:52 <JAllan> kf: thinks testing will be quick
17:49:31 <JAllan> gl: finding addons, extensions, etc. may slow down process. or having them created may take a while also.
17:50:17 <JAllan> kf: between now and Jan, need to find implementations to prepare for LC/CR
17:52:33 <JAllan> ja: implementations may help in resolving issues during last call.
17:54:05 <JAllan> Corrections: second LC June/July 2012. CR in Oct. 2012.
17:54:38 <JAllan> kf: PR March 2013.
17:55:48 <kford> zakim, agenda?
17:55:48 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:55:49 <Zakim> 2. Create Realistic Publication  timeline [from JAllan]
17:55:51 <Zakim> 3. review of  Editor's Draft comments from group, generate status questions for WD publication [from JAllan]
17:55:53 <Zakim> 4. Survey [from JAllan]
17:55:54 <Zakim> 5. Continue work on IER items needing content [from JAllan]
17:57:21 <JAllan> kf: RC in May 2013
17:57:50 <JAllan> js: we could save lots of time if get comments and implementation commitments.
17:58:14 <JAllan> kf: comfortable with this schedule. any objections?
17:58:22 <JAllan> [silence]
17:58:36 <Zakim> -Jeanne
17:58:55 <Zakim> +Jeanne
17:59:28 <jeanne> action: Jeanne to bring the new timeline to Rec to WAI and W3M.
17:59:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-572 - Bring the new timeline to Rec to WAI and W3M. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-06-30].
17:59:51 <JAllan> kf: if any body knows anybody new to recruit to group...
18:00:55 <kford> zakim, close item 2
18:00:55 <Zakim> agendum 2, Create Realistic Publication  timeline, closed
18:00:56 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:00:57 <Zakim> 3. review of  Editor's Draft comments from group, generate status questions for WD publication [from JAllan]
18:01:06 <kford> zakim, take up item 3
18:01:06 <Zakim> agendum 3. "review of  Editor's Draft comments from group, generate status questions for WD publication" taken up [from JAllan]
18:01:33 <Jan> Jan has joined #ua
18:03:11 <JAllan> review emails on review
18:04:23 <JAllan> js: KP and JS to do editors pass on small changes tomorrow.
18:04:59 <JAllan> ... wants to generate questions for status of WD
18:05:41 <JAllan> ja: new organization
18:05:54 <JAllan> kf: Focus work. 
18:06:33 <JAllan> gl: focus is more granular. does it make more sense.
18:07:19 <JAllan> js: media section fleshed out.
18:07:28 <JAllan> kf: things deleted.
18:07:36 <JAllan> js: they were not a11y related.
18:07:40 <Jan> brb
18:08:11 <Greg> Work on keyboard focus and navigation was primarily distributing the success criteria into several more specific guidelines, and addressing asymmetries (e.g. where something had been applied to content that should lso have applied to user agent user interface).
18:08:31 <Jan> back
18:09:34 <JAllan> kf: recycle previous questions
18:10:58 <JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0079.html
18:11:42 <JAllan> kf: whack sentence about things that UA doesn't support (braille production)
18:11:47 <JAllan> all agree
18:12:26 <JAllan> kf: 1.2.3 The user can specify whether or not the user agent should attempt to predict associations from author-specified presentation attributes (i.e. position and appearance). (Level AAA)
18:13:20 <JAllan> ... should delete. screen readers have tried this for years...usually not well. 
18:13:41 <JAllan> ja: SH may have objections. this is his SC.
18:14:07 <JAllan> kf: no UA does this.
18:14:52 <JAllan> jr: depends of def of UA.
18:15:48 <JAllan> kf: 1.3.1 editorial. doesn't make sense. makes a rewrite.
18:16:04 <JAllan> gl: right, there are problems.
18:16:40 <JAllan> js: let kim and I thrash through this. 
18:17:00 <JAllan> kf: do we want summary for all GL
18:17:10 <JAllan> ja: +1
18:17:30 <JAllan> kf: will need to write them.
18:17:57 <JAllan> gl: need to resynch GL and summarys
18:19:03 <JAllan> kf: 1.10.2 Note: 1st sentence make no sense. 
18:19:20 <JAllan> jr: Note serves no purpose.
18:19:44 <JAllan> gl: delete ok, but capture note in examples in the IER
18:21:21 <kford> kford has joined #ua
18:21:29 <kford> zakim, agenda?
18:21:29 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
18:21:30 <Zakim> 3. review of  Editor's Draft comments from group, generate status questions for WD publication [from JAllan]
18:21:33 <Zakim> 4. Survey [from JAllan]
18:21:35 <Zakim> 5. Continue work on IER items needing content [from JAllan]
18:22:22 <JAllan> ja: 1.1.2 mentions longdesc rendered inplace of image. is this right? how to make it happen.
18:23:04 <JAllan> kf: and JR - yes, longdesc in place of img with reflow was the intent.
18:23:42 <JAllan> kf: don't we have a reflow SC. (all looking)
18:24:30 <mhakkinen> mhakkinen has joined #ua
18:25:51 <Zakim> +Mark_Hakkinen
18:27:49 <JAllan> issue: need some SC about reflow of content when alternatives put in the document.
18:27:50 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-87 - Need some SC about reflow of content when alternatives put in the document. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/87/edit .
18:28:56 <kford> zakim, close item 3
18:28:56 <Zakim> agendum 3, review of  Editor's Draft comments from group, generate status questions for WD publication, closed
18:28:58 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:29:00 <Zakim> 4. Survey [from JAllan]
18:29:20 <kford> zakim, agenda?
18:29:20 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
18:29:21 <Zakim> 4. Survey [from JAllan]
18:29:23 <Zakim> 5. Continue work on IER items needing content [from JAllan]
18:29:41 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
18:29:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-ua-minutes.html kford
18:30:31 <JAllan> rrsagent, set logs public
18:30:44 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
18:30:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-ua-minutes.html kford
18:32:53 <Zakim> -Mark_Hakkinen
18:32:56 <Zakim> -kford
18:32:58 <Zakim> -Greg
18:33:05 <Zakim> -jallan
18:33:55 <JAllan> present: kelly, greg, jim, jan, jeanne, 
18:34:02 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:34:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:34:16 <JAllan> zakim, please part
18:34:16 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were jallan, Jan, Greg, Jeanne, kford, Mark_Hakkinen
18:34:16 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
18:34:26 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:34:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:34:39 <JAllan> rrsagent, please part
18:34:39 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-ua-actions.rdf :
18:34:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jeanne to bring the new timeline to Rec to WAI and W3M. [1]
18:34:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-ua-irc#T17-59-28