IRC log of css on 2011-06-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:19:09 [RRSAgent]
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15:19:09 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:19:13 [glazou]
zakim, this will be Style
15:19:13 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 41 minutes
15:19:18 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:35:36 [karl]
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15:50:06 [Florian]
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15:53:30 [danielweck]
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15:56:18 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:56:25 [Zakim]
15:56:49 [Florian]
Zakim, I am ??P31
15:56:49 [Zakim]
+Florian; got it
15:56:56 [jdaggett]
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15:57:22 [Zakim]
15:57:28 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P32 is me
15:57:28 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:57:46 [mollydotcom]
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15:58:28 [Zakim]
15:58:35 [Zakim]
15:58:46 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft is me
15:58:46 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
15:58:50 [jdaggett]
zakim, ??P34 is jdaggett
15:58:50 [Zakim]
+jdaggett; got it
15:59:05 [Zakim]
+ +1.215.286.aaaa
15:59:07 [Zakim]
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16:00:31 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa is kimberlyblessing
16:00:31 [Zakim]
+kimberlyblessing; got it
16:00:35 [Zakim]
16:00:48 [hober]
Kimberly: use port 80
16:00:54 [fantasai]
Zakim, ??P39 is me
16:00:54 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:00:57 [Zakim]
16:01:09 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.675.aabb
16:01:18 [stearns]
Zakim, aabb is me
16:01:18 [Zakim]
+stearns; got it
16:02:33 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.324.aacc
16:03:11 [Zakim]
16:03:23 [danielweck]
Zakim, ??P45 is me
16:03:23 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
16:03:49 [smfr]
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16:03:54 [sylvaing]
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16:04:05 [Zakim]
+ +47.23.69.aadd
16:04:10 [howcome]
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16:04:45 [Zakim]
16:05:21 [Zakim]
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16:06:03 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
16:06:26 [fantasai]
plinss: any additions to agenda?
16:06:42 [fantasai]
mollydotcom: SXSW is asking for what we're going to do to participate
16:06:47 [anne]
Zakim, passcode?
16:06:47 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), anne
16:06:49 [Zakim]
16:07:29 [fantasai]
jdaggett: F2F first?
16:07:34 [fantasai]
Topic: F2F
16:07:47 [fantasai]
plinss: Where are we on that?
16:07:47 [TabAtkins_]
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16:07:56 [Zakim]
+ +1.281.712.aaee
16:08:02 [fantasai]
alexmog1: We have a number of options: Adobe, MS, and Google
16:08:04 [Zakim]
16:08:06 [TabAtkins_]
zakim, aaee is TabAtkins
16:08:06 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins; got it
16:08:11 [anne]
Zakim, ??P53 is me
16:08:11 [Zakim]
+anne; got it
16:08:14 [fantasai]
sylvaing: we don't have confirmation yet, but working on it
16:08:30 [dbaron]
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16:08:30 [fantasai]
alexmog1: Both Google and Adobe are in Seattle, and MS has offices in Seattle as well; not sure ...
16:08:44 [fantasai]
alexmog1: It is possible, can do joint hosting as before
16:09:04 [fantasai]
glazou: Before speaking of final location, can we speak about dates so we can start booking plane tickets?
16:09:14 [Zakim]
16:09:20 [fantasai]
jdaggett: I think the exact location can be worked out in the next few weeks or so, but dates are important to work out soon
16:09:46 [fantasai]
Florian: I haven't had time to sync up with other Opera people, but that week doesn't work for me. One week earlier or August would work better for me.
16:10:01 [fantasai]
plinss: Other folks with constraints?
16:10:10 [anne]
August 1 is my birthday, but I don't care strongly
16:10:24 [fantasai]
smfr: It overlaps with SVG, which is convenient for those of us going to SVG
16:10:25 [anne]
not like many people are around in Europe :)
16:10:37 [fantasai]
plinss: What are exact dates of SVG?
16:10:44 [fantasai]
16:10:54 [fantasai]
plinss: Our current proposal is 28-30
16:11:04 [fantasai]
plinss: so 2 days of overlap
16:11:31 [fantasai]
fantasai: 25-27 (M-W) would give us same overlap
16:11:42 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Are there people other than Florian with conflicts?
16:11:52 [fantasai]
glazou: I must be in Paris on Sunday the 31st
16:12:05 [fantasai]
glazou: So a meeting on Saturday the 30th is not very convenient for me
16:12:23 [fantasai]
Florian: 25-27 is still hard for me but slightly better
16:12:36 [mollydotcom]
good for me
16:12:38 [fantasai]
plinss: any conflicts with 25-27?
16:13:10 [fantasai]
glazou: Conflict with SVG for Vincent, ChrisL, etc.
16:13:14 [fantasai]
fantasai: get that either way
16:13:31 [fantasai]
fantasai: If we want to reduce overlap with SVG, we can shift onto Sunday
16:14:07 [fantasai]
discussion of access to buildings on weekends
16:14:43 [fantasai]
Florian: could also do CSS the previous week, unless that's too far apart?
16:14:52 [fantasai]
jdaggett: For me the week before is bad
16:14:55 [Zakim]
16:15:37 [Zakim]
16:15:49 [kojiishi]
zakim, ??p6 is me
16:15:49 [Zakim]
+kojiishi; got it
16:16:45 [fantasai]
fantasai: So it seems M-W works better than Th-Sat. question is, do we want to shift onto Sunday to reduce overlap with SVG?
16:17:26 [Zakim]
16:17:43 [fantasai]
Florian: for me, the earlier the better
16:17:49 [fantasai]
plinss: So should we say 24-26?
16:17:56 [fantasai]
plinss: Any problems with those days?
16:18:00 [fantasai]
plinss: Sunday-Tuesday
16:18:32 [Zakim]
16:18:34 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: CSSWG F2F July 24-26, Sunday-Tuesday
16:18:45 [fantasai]
FXTF on Tuesday
16:19:26 [ChrisL]
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16:19:42 [fantasai]
plinss: Potential hosts to be discussed over email
16:20:00 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: in Seattle
16:20:11 [fantasai]
Topic: Multi-col
16:20:25 [plinss]
16:20:39 [fantasai]
howcome: We did discuss this a few weeks ago
16:20:44 [fantasai]
plinss: Did we get a resolution?
16:21:00 [fantasai]
howcome: I think the resolution was to discuss it at a future date
16:21:09 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, here
16:21:09 [RRSAgent]
16:21:16 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think to leave undefined
16:21:37 [fantasai]
howcome: I'm all for writing a spec for intrinsic widths, but I don't think multicol elements should be treated specially
16:22:24 [fantasai]
howcome: and that would add things to consider for testing/PR
16:22:50 [fantasai]
fantasai: IIRC my testing showed that multicol did have some special behavior. I think this requres more testing, investigation, discussion before we can come up with a spec
16:22:57 [fantasai]
Topic: Namespaces
16:23:09 [fantasai]
plinss: Had telecon with i18n and W3M, getting their feedback on normalization issues
16:23:29 [fantasai]
plinss: State of the world is that they're not going to be blocking Namespaces. There are concerns about Selectors, but Namespaces can proceed.
16:23:37 [Zakim]
- +47.23.69.aadd
16:23:37 [fantasai]
plinss: Way to move forward with this issue is to take it to the TAG
16:24:22 [fantasai]
ChrisL: So we would file the issue with the TAG, then propose to move forward with Selectors and Namespaces
16:24:52 [fantasai]
ChrisL: We say this is the issue, know it exists and needs to be solved, but has to be solved W3C-wide, and we'll move forward and deal with it later
16:24:57 [fantasai]
anne: I don't think it needs to be solved
16:25:02 [fantasai]
plinss: Either way, we're not the ones solving it
16:25:15 [fantasai]
plinss: It's important to many people, but something we've lived for a long time without
16:25:55 [fantasai]
fantasai: so I propose closing this issue as Out-of-Scope and taking Namespaces to PR
16:25:58 [fantasai]
16:26:04 [fantasai]
16:26:21 [fantasai]
fantasai: So do we want to move Namespaces to PR?
16:26:26 [ChrisL]
16:26:27 [dbaron]
It would be really nice if had a link to
16:26:42 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Close normalization issue as out-of-scope, send response to i18n, and take Namespaces to PR.
16:27:08 [fantasai]
ACTION fantasai: do the above
16:27:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-331 - Do the above [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-06-29].
16:27:22 [fantasai]
Topic: DOM3 Events 2nd LC
16:27:37 [fantasai]
glazou: I sent a comment myself, got feedback from chairs and members of group, but it was strictly personal
16:28:02 [fantasai]
glazou: I mentioned the new CSS3 UI selectors and said we could be interested in events matching the new :invalid/:whatever
16:28:14 [fantasai]
glazou: but they said it was to late
16:28:19 [fantasai]
glazou: but willing to consider for the next level
16:28:23 [fantasai]
glazou: other than that, I had no comments myself
16:28:32 [fantasai]
plinss: Anyone else reviewed it? Any other feedback?
16:28:53 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I think Anne's draft was much better than DOM3 is doing, but that doesn't need to be CSSWG's opinion
16:28:57 [anne]
I need to go now; TabAtkins / TabAtkins_ can you email me about CSSOM stuff? Or otherwise we can call later today maybe...
16:29:07 [fantasai]
glazou: It's difficult to send such a comment without showing why it's better.
16:29:33 [fantasai]
TabAtkins will send this as a personal comment.
16:30:05 [fantasai]
ChrisL: It was good to see keyboard and text events which competing implementations like flash and silverlight already have
16:30:30 [fantasai]
ChrisL: I might send that in as a comment myself
16:30:49 [fantasai]
plinss: Not hearing any WG comments at this point
16:30:59 [fantasai]
glazou: Should I send official answer that we have no comments?
16:31:09 [fantasai]
ACTION glazou: Send no comments comment for DOM3 Events
16:31:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-332 - Send no comments comment for DOM3 Events [on Daniel Glazman - due 2011-06-29].
16:31:31 [fantasai]
Topic: Charter
16:31:45 [fantasai]
ChrisL: I got feedback that the list of high priority items (-> PR items)
16:31:55 [fantasai]
ChrisL: I got a comment back saying some of those will and some of those won't
16:32:11 [fantasai]
ChrisL: So was wondering exactly how to edit
16:32:18 [fantasai]
fantasai: Should be instructions in the minutes
16:32:22 [fantasai]
from the F2F
16:32:33 [fantasai]
ChrisL: The other thing is that there are discussions about FXTF scope
16:32:41 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Should sort that out first
16:32:44 [Zakim]
16:32:55 [fantasai]
ChrisL: So my plan is to send a draft charter to AC, and ask for an extension
16:33:04 [Zakim]
16:33:11 [danielweck]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
16:33:11 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
16:33:13 [fantasai]
ChrisL: until end of August
16:33:16 [danielweck]
(sorry, SIP dropped me)
16:33:18 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Does that seem like an OK plan?
16:33:22 [fantasai]
sounds reasonable to ppl
16:33:34 [ChrisL]
charter extensio lets us publish meanwhile
16:33:55 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: send draft charter to AC but request extension until everything has been worked out exactly
16:34:08 [fantasai]
plinss: What do we need to do to sort out the FXTF stuff?
16:34:18 [fantasai]
ChrisL: My recollection was to have that on the agenda this week
16:34:32 [fantasai]
plinss: What are the contentious issues here?
16:34:52 [fantasai]
ChrisL: For Transitions wasn't clear, did CSSWG want to keep that as a separate spec
16:34:57 [fantasai]
ChrisL: So whether to jointly develop that
16:35:09 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Could also argue that we need to talk about that for 2D and 3D Transforms
16:35:23 [fantasai]
sylvaing: They use same properties. Would be weird to move one to CR while other is behind
16:35:37 [fantasai]
plinss: I'm confused about your questions, Chris.
16:35:53 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Question is to have Transitions and Animations both worked on by the FXTF
16:35:57 [fantasai]
dbaron: Why?
16:36:04 [fantasai]
ChrisL: They apply both to SVG and to HTML
16:36:10 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Needs to be clear how that works
16:36:17 [fantasai]
dbaron: That could be said about most modules in CSS
16:36:42 [fantasai]
ChrisL: That's true, but in this case, but in this case we have animation model in CSS and not clear that same model is being used in CSS
16:36:51 [fantasai]
ChrisL: More potential conflicts
16:37:06 [Ms2ger]
16:37:09 [fantasai]
ChrisL: No call for CSS Fonts to be developed in TF, since it's clear how they apply.
16:37:22 [fantasai]
ChrisL: And box model stuff doesn't apply to SVG
16:37:35 [fantasai]
ChrisL: So not everything needs to be jointly developed. Just certain things need to be.
16:37:40 [fantasai]
ChrisL: And we have to get that list pinned down.
16:38:05 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Vincent had sent a list of suggestions. Maybe we should defer this until he's back.
16:38:24 [fantasai]
ChrisL: I would like to go through that list in detail and see what people think of it
16:38:46 [fantasai]
PLAN - go over that list next week
16:39:10 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS3 Images
16:39:44 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: The big remaining issue is the gradient keyword interpretation.
16:39:50 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I think everything else is ok.
16:39:58 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: There's been a while since the last WD
16:40:26 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Mostly from the last time I asked for a WD
16:40:56 [fantasai]
suggestion to add a change list to the spec
16:41:28 [smfr]
sylvaing: your phone sucks
16:41:38 [smfr]
is it a windows 7 phone? ;)
16:42:02 [sylvaing]
I'd rather preserve a WD that reflects current implementations while pending issues are being resolved
16:42:23 [sylvaing]
we also have issues with normative OM serialization
16:43:10 [fantasai]
fantasai: There's a bunch of changes to the draft that I think we should get published, rather than waiting to resolve all the potential issues; we should just mark the open issues in the draft and publish
16:43:38 [fantasai]
Brad: Maybe publish the change list and then look at it for a week before publishing
16:44:14 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: OK, I will get a list of changes up today or tomorrow, and then we can discuss publishing next week
16:44:25 [fantasai]
ACTION Tab: make change list for css3-images similar to CSS3 Text etc.
16:44:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-333 - Make change list for css3-images similar to CSS3 Text etc. [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2011-06-29].
16:44:57 [sylvaing]
for instance, background-position serialization is not defined by the spec and shouldn't be defined there. in turn, this implies Image Values depends on another draft that will delay progress of Image Values down the standard track. another: incompatible with current CSSOM ED and serialization in the latter has not been reviewed by the WG either.
16:44:59 [sylvaing]
there are others
16:45:08 [fantasai]
ACTION everyone: Review css3-images so we can publish next week
16:45:08 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - everyone
16:45:20 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS3 Writing Modes
16:45:44 [glazou]
is a CSS author killing a baby in the background or what ? :-)
16:45:54 [sylvaing]
the baby is being normalized
16:45:56 [glazou]
16:45:57 [sylvaing]
it will pass
16:47:18 [fantasai]
jdaggett: There are problems in the spec.
16:47:27 [KimberlyBlessing]
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16:47:29 [fantasai]
fantasai: What problems? I need a list, otherwise I can't take any actions.
16:47:56 [dbaron]
What issue tracking mechanism is being used for the spec?
16:48:05 [smfr]
16:48:07 [fantasai]
szilles: Not adequately pointing to the Unicode field lists
16:48:11 [fantasai]
fantasai: I added
16:48:12 [dbaron]
and can we at least make sure that all the issues being discussed are filed in that system?
16:48:26 [fantasai]
jdaggett: The way text-orientation is defined, it's not clear to me that it's implementable
16:48:29 [ChrisL]
there are issues and there are not concrete proposals to fix them and thus, john is correct that moving to last call on the spec is premature. Unless parts of the spec are expected to be non normative and not testable in CR
16:48:33 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Nat McCully also says that
16:48:37 [fantasai]
jdaggett: How do we solve that, I don't know.
16:49:08 [fantasai]
Ed: Maybe the way to move forward with that would be to go to LC, so we can get feedback from the wider community
16:49:15 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Saying that it's LC is saying that it's done.
16:49:35 [fantasai]
szilles: Simple example I put it was whether punctuation lies between two characters of a given class be handled
16:50:37 [sylvaing]
if implementors are concerned about implementability i don't get how we can move to LC
16:51:30 [fantasai]
szilles: my feeling was that the topics raised during the dicussion at the F2F were issues
16:51:42 [fantasai]
szilles: I reviewed the minutes, and I have to say the minutes are not at all clear on that
16:52:09 [sylvaing]
also, given that writing-mode is implemented by some browsers with different values, i wonder whether we should apply the pattern we applied to another property at the f2f whereby writing-mode and its old values is deprecated and a new prop name is used
16:52:50 [fantasai]
dbaron: We need to track issues somewhere
16:53:13 [fantasai]
fantasai: I've just been working off the mailing list so far, but we need something more formal
16:53:17 [dbaron]
fantasai: I'm oging to suggest using tracker.
16:53:21 [dbaron]
16:53:22 [fantasai]
16:53:29 [Ms2ger]
Bugzilla? :)
16:53:45 [fantasai]
Florian: Is there anything that is marked as an issue in either the draft that you don't know what people are complaining about?
16:53:56 [Zakim]
16:54:50 [Zakim]
16:55:06 [fantasai]
jdaggett: The problem with text-orientation is in Eric Muller's draft
16:56:19 [fantasai]
Florian: It's not clear why we're not ready for LC, but we're not ready for LC.
16:56:28 [fantasai]
Florian: So we should use Tracker and go from there.
16:56:38 [Zakim]
16:56:41 [ChrisL]
I agre with Florian
16:56:50 [jdaggett]
my point earlier was that the entire discussion at the F2F of writing-modes
16:57:04 [jdaggett]
brought up many topics that are clearly issues with the current spec
16:57:28 [fantasai]
fantasai: I'm abdicating any responsibility for filing issues. People should file their own issues so they can explain them themselves.
16:57:39 [Zakim]
16:58:47 [fantasai]
ACTION fantasai: Post message to mailing list about neutral punctuation resolution
16:58:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-334 - Post message to mailing list about neutral punctuation resolution [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-06-29].
16:59:04 [fantasai]
ACTION Steve: Ask Eric to review current draft
16:59:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-335 - Ask Eric to review current draft [on Steve Zilles - due 2011-06-29].
16:59:06 [Zakim]
16:59:19 [anne]
anne has joined #css
17:00:33 [ChrisL]
follow-up emails should include the issue number so tracker picks them up
17:00:38 [fantasai]
fantasai: File one issue per email to www-style
17:00:46 [fantasai]
Topic: SXSW
17:00:54 [fantasai]
mollydotcom: They've contacted me to see what we want to do for SXSW
17:00:58 [Zakim]
17:01:13 [fantasai]
mollydotcom: I think we ended up with a good idea that didn't track with many ppl and put us in a huge room
17:01:29 [fantasai]
mollydotcom: I'm brainstorming for what to do, if you have ideas contact me.
17:02:20 [Zakim]
17:02:21 [Zakim]
17:02:21 [Zakim]
- +1.206.324.aacc
17:02:21 [Zakim]
17:02:23 [Zakim]
17:02:24 [Zakim]
17:02:24 [Zakim]
17:02:25 [Zakim]
17:02:27 [Zakim]
17:02:29 [Zakim]
17:02:29 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
17:02:31 [Zakim]
17:02:33 [Zakim]
17:02:35 [Zakim]
17:02:37 [Zakim]
17:02:39 [Zakim]
17:02:41 [Zakim]
17:02:43 [Zakim]
17:02:45 [Zakim]
17:03:23 [Zakim]
17:03:24 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:03:26 [Zakim]
Attendees were Florian, glazou, arronei, jdaggett, +1.215.286.aaaa, plinss, hober, kimberlyblessing, fantasai, Molly_Holzschlag, +1.206.675.aabb, stearns, +1.206.324.aacc,
17:03:26 [mollydotcom]
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17:03:28 [Zakim]
... danielweck, +47.23.69.aadd, smfr, SteveZ, bradk, +1.281.712.aaee, TabAtkins, anne, dbaron, ChrisL, kojiishi
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