14:55:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webid
14:55:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/20-webid-irc
14:55:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:55:12 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webid
14:55:14 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WEBID
14:55:14 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see INC_WEBID(WEBID)11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:15 <trackbot> Meeting: WebID Incubator Group Teleconference
14:55:15 <trackbot> Date: 20 June 2011
14:55:17 <Zakim> INC_WEBID(WEBID)11:00AM has now started
14:55:22 <bblfish> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:55:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/20-webid-minutes.html bblfish
14:55:23 <Zakim> +??P21
14:55:30 <Deiu> Zakim, I am ??P21
14:55:30 <Zakim> +Deiu; got it
14:55:32 <bblfish> RRSAgent, make minutes public
14:55:32 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', bblfish.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:55:56 <bblfish> agenda
14:56:06 <bblfish> zakim, agenda?
14:56:06 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
14:56:20 <bblfish> agenda +"Accept minutes from previous meeting: http://www.w3.org/2011/05/23-webid-minutes.html"
14:56:43 <bblfish> agenda +"Review Berlin and Identity in Browser workshops:  http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/webid/wiki/Berlin_meetup_2011"
14:57:06 <bblfish> agenda +"Fixing the main schedule for the next 3-6 months"
14:59:30 <Zakim> + +1.510.931.aaaa
14:59:42 <bblfish> zakim, +1.510.931.aaaa is me
14:59:42 <Zakim> +bblfish; got it
14:59:58 <bblfish> Zakim, who is here?
14:59:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see Deiu, bblfish
15:00:02 <Zakim> -bblfish
15:00:37 <Zakim> +bblfish
15:00:42 <bblfish> odd cut me off
15:01:09 <bblfish> today I have to leave a bit early today
15:01:27 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:01:28 <bblfish> perhaps we stop five minutes before the end of the hour
15:01:36 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:01:40 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:01:53 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:01:57 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
15:01:58 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:02:07 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: bblfish (79%)
15:02:42 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:02:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see Deiu, bblfish, MacTed (muted)
15:02:53 <MacTed> ... but you see no-one on IRC?  strange.
15:03:02 <MacTed> Zakim, code?
15:03:02 <Zakim> the conference code is 93243 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), MacTed
15:03:28 <bblfish> member:Zakim, who's noisy?
15:03:46 <bblfish> zakim, who is noisy?
15:03:57 <Zakim> bblfish, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:04:00 <MacTed> Zakim, mute bblfish
15:04:00 <Zakim> bblfish should now be muted
15:04:03 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute bblfish
15:04:03 <Zakim> bblfish should no longer be muted
15:04:08 <bblfish> Zakim, who's noisy?
15:04:20 <Zakim> bblfish, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:04:38 <MacTed> Zakim, mute Deiu
15:04:38 <Zakim> Deiu should now be muted
15:04:43 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute Deiu
15:04:43 <Zakim> Deiu should no longer be muted
15:04:47 <MacTed> and there's the answer...
15:04:51 <Deiu> Oh?
15:05:14 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:05:14 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:05:32 <bblfish> who wants to scribe?
15:05:37 <Deiu> I'll do it
15:05:41 <Zakim> + +49.874.aabb
15:05:44 <bblfish> Zakim, who is here?
15:05:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see Deiu, bblfish, MacTed, +49.874.aabb
15:06:48 <bblfish> Zakim, Deiu is scribe
15:06:48 <Zakim> +scribe; got it
15:06:53 <bergi> Zakim, I am +49.874.aabb
15:06:53 <Zakim> +bergi; got it
15:06:56 <bblfish> next agendum
15:07:38 <Deiu> there is enough people today to take up the proposed agenda
15:07:50 <bblfish> +1
15:07:51 <MacTed> +0 I wasn't there...
15:08:03 <bergi> +1
15:08:07 <Deiu> +1
15:08:12 <bblfish> RESOLVED: Minutes approved
15:08:22 <bblfish> agendum next
15:08:39 <bblfish> next agendum
15:09:06 <Deiu> we had a lot of people around the table during the workshops
15:09:15 <Deiu> and of course, the WebID XG meeting
15:09:30 <Deiu> danbri was "late"
15:09:56 <Deiu> we had several good discussions during 3rd of June
15:10:02 <bblfish> danbri was not that late
15:10:06 <bblfish> it was great he came
15:10:49 <Deiu> memory is just like lined data -> distributed 
15:10:58 <Deiu> everybody remembers bits 
15:11:20 <Deiu> therefore people should fill in the wiki page with stuff that's missing
15:11:46 <Deiu> there's a missing discussion on the wiki, between bergi and bblfish 
15:11:58 <bblfish> yes, I can tell if people have not done this because there are bits where people should fill in what they talked about
15:12:03 <Deiu> bblfish will add it at some point
15:12:20 <danbri> I arrived exactly when I intended to arrive!
15:12:21 <Deiu> correction, the discussion is there now
15:12:23 <bblfish> Bergi discussion is not missing
15:12:35 <danbri> (which was as soon as possible, given flight from AMS:)
15:12:42 <danbri> nice to be there, however briefly
15:12:52 <Deiu> yes, it was great
15:13:21 <Deiu> the picture danbri drew during the XG meeting should be discussed a little
15:13:51 <Deiu> there's other content which can go down another line
15:13:52 <bblfish> we are discussing that now
15:13:58 <bblfish> very important picture
15:14:28 <Deiu> there was consensus from everyone that there should be a core on which we should concentrate 
15:14:44 <Deiu> http vs https, syntax as well
15:15:55 <bblfish> there was even talk of MUST requirements for the core
15:16:01 <Deiu> the people representing other protocols accepted that the WebID spec doesn't have to contain a predefined list of protocols
15:16:13 <Deiu> at this point
15:16:42 <Deiu> there MUST be a core
15:16:45 <Zakim> + +1.781.866.aacc
15:17:16 <bblfish> so my understanding was that there was consensus on there being a CORE small list of syntax, uri, and ontologies
15:17:40 <scor> scor has joined #webid
15:19:14 <Deiu> bblfish does not really agree with using MUST in the spec, as tests can cover exceptions
15:20:28 <bblfish> Questuin: A. do are we all agree there is the core?  B: that is is rdf/xml, rdfa + cert/rsa ontology + http/https (ftp..)
15:21:03 <bblfish> A:+ B:+ but not necessarily with a MUST in the spec - though we can add it later. More of a focus on these things first
15:21:17 <scor> +1
15:21:36 <Deiu> +1 A and B
15:21:42 <scor> +1 A and B
15:22:04 <Zakim> -bblfish
15:22:15 <bblfish> have I just dissapeared?
15:23:03 <scor> proposal: remain syntax agnostic, as long as there is a way to get RDF out of it
15:23:18 <Zakim> +??P5
15:23:29 <Deiu> Question: is rdf/xml the best syntax to use on the long run?
15:23:31 <scor> so RDFa, RDF/XML, etc fit in this category
15:23:41 <scor> I disagree with RDF/XML
15:23:44 <bergi> +1 A and B no ftp
15:24:19 <Deiu> most of us have working rdf/xml representations
15:24:33 <scor> Deiu: I disagree, I work primarily with RDFa
15:25:00 <bblfish> zakim, +??P5 is me
15:25:00 <Zakim> sorry, bblfish, I do not recognize a party named '+??P5'
15:25:06 <bblfish> zakim, +P5 is me
15:25:06 <Zakim> sorry, bblfish, I do not recognize a party named '+P5'
15:25:08 <Deiu> scor, I'm scribing :-)
15:25:34 <scor> we've had very long and controversial discussions on the syntax in the group prior to joining the XG, and we could not settle on one syntax, that's why we have both at the moment
15:27:24 <Deiu> we have consensus that we don't want to use everything from the start
15:27:53 <Deiu> scor, I meant that I'm also scribing (not always stating my personal thoughts)
15:28:04 <bblfish> RESOLVED: consensus here and in Belrin on restricting ourselves for pragmatic purposes to a core, with HTTP and HTTPS, cert and rsa close to a MUST, and format still open
15:29:22 <Deiu> it's important that we "synchronize" our implementations, and this is where tests can help a lot
15:29:49 <bblfish> anything else anyone remembers us speaking of that morning?
15:29:51 <Deiu> by synchronize I mean deciding on common formats/syntax
15:30:55 <Deiu> that was it for the morning session
15:31:21 <bblfish> So in afternoon we started talking about tests
15:31:21 <scor> +1 for test driven dev
15:31:37 <Deiu> during the afternoon there was a debate between Mike and bblfish whether or not to use test driven development 
15:32:17 <Deiu> Mike proposed the waterfall model, whereas bblfish proposes test driven dev
15:32:57 <bblfish> http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10-Schema/
15:33:16 <scor> and feedback the implementations to improve the spec is important too
15:33:42 <Deiu> yes, exactly
15:34:49 <Deiu> bergi describes his junit webid tests
15:35:22 <Deiu> different test cases -> multiple URIs, keys, etc which are verified against endpoints
15:35:38 <Deiu> cache tests 
15:36:52 <bblfish> webid mercurial repo: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/WebID
15:37:44 <bblfish> I added this http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/WebID/file/55f18239ed1a/tests/earl
15:37:59 <Deiu> these are tests that clients should implement
15:38:13 <Deiu> a lot of feedback is needed at this point
15:39:38 <Deiu> we should concentrate on tests during the next few months
15:39:47 <bblfish> so we can prepare the final report
15:40:02 <bblfish> and so we can improve the specs
15:40:08 <Deiu> those of us currently developing WebID implementations should try to add tests
15:40:26 <bblfish> these machine readable tests are quite easy to generate
15:40:37 <bblfish> so I can point at the WebID implementation
15:41:47 <Deiu> I'll try to add something as well
15:42:27 <bblfish> So do we have consensus to make this a priority? Is the methodology ok?
15:42:48 <Deiu> personal note: tests are always welcome
15:42:58 <Deiu> +1 from me
15:43:07 <bblfish> +1 for me, but I implemented them already. 
15:43:15 <bblfish> perhaps we should have a wiki page for tests
15:43:25 <Deiu> +1 for wiki page
15:43:26 <bblfish> ACTION: wiki page for tests
15:43:26 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - wiki
15:43:43 <bblfish> ACTION: bblfish, wiki page for tests
15:43:43 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - bblfish,
15:43:57 <bblfish> ACTION: bblfish wiki page for tests
15:43:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-30 - Wiki page for tests [on Henry Story - due 2011-06-27].
15:47:05 <Deiu> bblfish would like to add GRDDL support
15:47:15 <Deiu> but it's complicated right now
15:50:02 <bblfish> Request cert & rsa ontologies
15:50:26 <Deiu> bblfish proposes moving the two namespaces into one
15:50:33 <bblfish> Question is moving cert & rsa into one namespace
15:50:50 <scor> hugely in favor
15:51:21 <bblfish> +1
15:51:30 <scor> bblfish: could DSA be factored in the single vocab as well?
15:51:34 <bergi> +1
15:51:35 <bblfish> yes
15:51:57 <scor> what would be the name of the ontology? cert?
15:52:05 <bblfish> cert:
15:52:24 <scor> I can scribe
15:52:30 <Zakim> -scribe
15:52:52 <bblfish> html rdfa of those ontologies like that foaf ontology
15:53:03 <bblfish> who would like to take on as a task
15:54:11 <bblfish> ACTION scor: lead on rdfa-izing the cert/rsa ontologies
15:54:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-31 - Lead on rdfa-izing the cert/rsa ontologies [on Stéphane Corlosquet - due 2011-06-27].
15:55:02 <bblfish> by the Scala in the w3c
15:55:27 <bblfish> trackbot, end meeting
15:55:27 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:55:27 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been bblfish, MacTed, +49.874.aabb, scribe, bergi, +1.781.866.aacc
15:55:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:55:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/20-webid-minutes.html trackbot
15:55:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:55:29 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/20-webid-actions.rdf :
15:55:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wiki page for tests [1]
15:55:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/20-webid-irc#T15-43-26
15:55:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: bblfish, wiki page for tests [2]
15:55:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/20-webid-irc#T15-43-43
15:55:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: bblfish wiki page for tests [3]
15:55:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/20-webid-irc#T15-43-57
15:55:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: scor to lead on rdfa-izing the cert/rsa ontologies [4]
15:55:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/20-webid-irc#T15-54-11
15:55:36 <bblfish> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:55:48 <Zakim> -MacTed