IRC log of i18n on 2011-06-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:49 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:54:49 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-i18n-irc
14:54:53 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #i18n
14:55:00 [aphillip]
trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:55:02 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:55:04 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 4186
14:55:04 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:05 [trackbot]
Meeting: Internationalization Core Working Group Teleconference
14:55:05 [trackbot]
Date: 15 June 2011
14:55:30 [aphillip]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2011Jun/0006.html
14:55:37 [aphillip]
Chair: Addison Phillips
14:55:44 [aphillip]
Scribe: Addison Phillips
14:55:44 [aphillip]
ScribeNick: aphillip
14:56:02 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:56:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:56:26 [aphillip]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
14:56:30 [aphillip]
moo
14:56:37 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:56:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:57:02 [David]
David has joined #i18n
14:57:28 [matial]
matial has joined #i18n
14:58:14 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
14:58:21 [Zakim]
+??P11
14:58:21 [kojiishi]
kojiishi has joined #i18n
14:58:43 [matial]
zakim, ??P11 is matial
14:58:43 [Zakim]
+matial; got it
14:58:46 [Zakim]
+ +44.141.888.aaaa
14:59:03 [David]
zakim, +44 is David
14:59:04 [Zakim]
+David; got it
14:59:05 [r12a]
zakim, dial richard
14:59:06 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
14:59:08 [Zakim]
+Richard
14:59:14 [Zakim]
+Addison_Phillips
14:59:23 [r12a]
zakim, who's here ?
14:59:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see matial, David, Richard, Addison_Phillips
14:59:25 [Zakim]
On IRC I see kojiishi, matial, David, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, trackbot
14:59:48 [r12a]
zakim, I am Richard
14:59:48 [Zakim]
ok, r12a, I now associate you with Richard
15:00:13 [aphillip]
zakim, who's noisy?
15:00:24 [Zakim]
aphillip, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Addison_Phillips (4%), David (33%)
15:00:45 [David]
zakim, mute me
15:00:45 [Zakim]
David should now be muted
15:01:03 [fsasaki]
fsasaki has joined #i18n
15:01:50 [Zakim]
-David
15:02:16 [Zakim]
+David
15:02:32 [Zakim]
+??P15
15:03:13 [Zakim]
+??P31
15:03:22 [kojiishi]
zakim, ??p31 is me
15:03:31 [Zakim]
+kojiishi; got it
15:03:49 [aphillip]
Topic: Minutes and Agenda review
15:04:04 [aharon]
aharon has joined #i18n
15:04:05 [aphillip]
Topic: Action Items
15:04:22 [aphillip]
Finish edits and convert time zones document to HTML
15:05:00 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
15:05:26 [aphillip]
Talk with Bert about how to deal with change marks in Ruby spec
15:05:26 [aphillip]
Talk with Bert about how to deal with change marks in Ruby spec
15:05:41 [Zakim]
+ +972.5.424.5aabb
15:05:57 [aharon]
zakim, mute me
15:05:57 [Zakim]
sorry, aharon, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:06:07 [aphillip]
zakim, +972 is aharon
15:06:07 [Zakim]
+aharon; got it
15:06:25 [aharon]
zakim, mute me
15:06:25 [Zakim]
aharon should now be muted
15:06:38 [aphillip]
Create wiki page with normalization position paper
15:06:53 [aphillip]
agenda item for today
15:07:11 [aphillip]
Review Contacts API and collect last call comments for the WG. WG members to perform review.
15:07:21 [aphillip]
will start this week
15:07:31 [aphillip]
everyone: should help koji out
15:07:44 [aphillip]
Reply to WOFF indicating our acceptance/non-acceptance of issues per 2011-06-01 telecon
15:08:22 [aphillip]
done; they are having a telecon concurrently and will discuss last open issue (splitting items into localizable elements)
15:09:05 [aphillip]
close ACTION-44
15:09:05 [trackbot]
ACTION-44 Reply to WOFF indicating our acceptance/non-acceptance of issues per 2011-06-01 telecon closed
15:09:16 [aphillip]
Publish qa-personal-names for wide review
15:09:25 [aphillip]
not done; need to respond to Mark's comments
15:09:40 [aphillip]
Dump charmod-norm and add disclaimer paragraph, dates, etc. so that we can publish an interim working draft
15:10:44 [aphillip]
Topic: Info Share
15:11:13 [aphillip]
close ACTION-21
15:11:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-21 Review techniques index pages to check that all the current links in the index point to the right place closed
15:11:43 [aphillip]
close ACTION-34
15:11:43 [trackbot]
ACTION-34 Ask chinese colleagues about character orientation spec closed
15:12:36 [aphillip]
chris lilley is likely to contact us to set up a meeting about normalization
15:13:54 [David]
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/06/microsoft-developers-windows-8/all/1
15:14:10 [aphillip]
David: link about Windows8 use of HTML5/JS
15:15:00 [aphillip]
Topic: Reviews
15:15:09 [aphillip]
- Widgets - HTML5
15:15:21 [aphillip]
-Contacts API
15:16:20 [aphillip]
chair: call to arms on reviewing HTML5
15:16:44 [aphillip]
Topic : Time Zones document progress
15:17:01 [aphillip]
http://www.w3.org/International/docs/timezones/
15:17:42 [aphillip]
addison: I think I could nearly almost sorta be done
15:17:48 [aphillip]
richard: I have a few comments
15:18:22 [aphillip]
ACTION: addison: collect any remaining comments and update timezones document for final publication
15:18:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-47 - Collect any remaining comments and update timezones document for final publication [on Addison Phillips - due 2011-06-22].
15:19:13 [aphillip]
richard: really detailed (hyper-detailed) and kind of scary
15:19:22 [aphillip]
... could use a short article about time zones in HTML5
15:20:45 [aphillip]
... "here's how to use the new forms elements"
15:21:20 [aphillip]
Topic: Normalization
15:21:33 [aphillip]
http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/CharmodNormSummary
15:22:00 [aphillip]
http://www.w3.org/TR/charmod-norm/
15:23:54 [aphillip]
Specifications MUST require identifiers, namespaces, element names, attribute names, and attribute values to be compared as if they were fully-normalized. Specifications SHOULD NOT require documents to be stored or transcoded to any particular normalization form. However, specifications MAY require specific fields or values within a document to be fully-normalized.
15:25:30 [aphillip]
Textual content SHOULD be stored and interchanged in a fully-normalized format, except where it interferes with the author's intentions. give examples
15:27:33 [aphillip]
define A "normalization-sensitive operation" is one whose results may differ when normalization is applied to content. define A "normalizing operation" is one whose results are normalization sensitive and which fully-normalizes the text on which it operates.
15:29:14 [aphillip]
richard: 3.2.5 defines normalization sensitve operations
15:30:31 [aphillip]
A text-processing component MAY perform normalization-sensitive operations without first normalizing or checking for normalization of content. The results of any such operation are dependent upon the code points encoded and visually and semantically identical strings might compare as unequal.
15:31:03 [aphillip]
compare -> be treated as
15:31:48 [aphillip]
"addison: I like this"
15:33:58 [aphillip]
identifiers, namespaces, element names, attribute names, and attribute values
15:38:24 [Zakim]
-aharon
15:38:52 [aphillip]
richard: call out authoring tools and keyboards
15:39:07 [aphillip]
... should they provide normalization option or generally output normalized output??
15:39:43 [aphillip]
Authoring tool implementations for a (formal) language that does not mandate full-normalization SHOULD either prevent users from creating content with composing characters at the beginning of constructs that may be significant, such as at the beginning of an entity that will be included, immediately after a construct that causes inclusion or immediately after markup, or SHOULD warn users when they do so.
15:40:35 [fsasaki]
q+ to ask if we should put pointers from each recommendation to specs (as much as there are already) that already do the right thing with regards to normalization
15:40:36 [aphillip]
add a requirement about authoring tools/keyboards/input
15:40:41 [fsasaki]
ack me
15:40:42 [Zakim]
fsasaki, you wanted to ask if we should put pointers from each recommendation to specs (as much as there are already) that already do the right thing with regards to normalization
15:40:46 [aphillip]
ack fsasaki
15:42:51 [aphillip]
C308 [S] Where operations may produce unnormalized output from normalized text input, specifications of API components (functions/methods) that implement these operations MUST define whether normalization is the responsibility of the caller or the callee. Specifications MAY state that performing normalization is optional for some API components; in this case the default SHOULD be that normalization is performed, and an explicit option SHOULD be used to swit
15:43:08 [aphillip]
Specifications of API components (functions/methods) MAY optionally require that normalization is performed for normalization-sensitive operations; the default SHOULD be that normalization is performed, and an explicit option SHOULD be used to switch normalization off.
15:43:34 [r12a]
zakim, who's making noise?
15:43:45 [Zakim]
r12a, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Addison_Phillips (12%), David (59%), fsasaki (78%)
15:43:55 [r12a]
zakim, mute david
15:43:55 [Zakim]
David should now be muted
15:46:19 [aphillip]
richard: worried that "full normalization" creates a lot of complexity
15:46:26 [aphillip]
.... hard to pin down
15:46:47 [aphillip]
... but also created problems such as combining mark inside a <span> for example
15:47:16 [aphillip]
Specifications of text-based languages and protocols SHOULD define precisely the construct boundaries necessary to process the language, protocol, or document format in the absence of normalized textual content. These definitions SHOULD include at least the boundaries between markup and character data as well as entity boundaries (if the language has an include mechanism), SHOULD include any other boundary that may create denormalization when instances of the
15:48:40 [aphillip]
addison: deal with combining marks after parsing the document rather than before
15:49:13 [aphillip]
Authoring tool implementations for a (formal) language that does not mandate full-normalization SHOULD either prevent users from creating content with composing characters at the beginning of constructs that may be significant, such as at the beginning of an entity that will be included, immediately after a construct that causes inclusion or immediately after markup, or SHOULD warn users when they do so.
15:49:55 [aphillip]
addison/richard: not wild about that one
15:51:01 [aphillip]
attribute=/foo
15:51:10 [aphillip]
where '/' is a combining solidus
15:54:07 [aphillip]
\// r12a// this is my comment //
15:54:34 [aphillip]
put a couple of spaces on the front
15:55:20 [aphillip]
ACTION: addison: update charmodsummary and review WG member comments as they come in
15:55:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-48 - Update charmodsummary and review WG member comments as they come in [on Addison Phillips - due 2011-06-22].
15:55:56 [aphillip]
Topic: List traffic items
15:56:16 [aphillip]
- should UTF-8 BOM trump document encoding - changes to text/* default character encoding
15:56:28 [aphillip]
latter is an internet-draft
15:57:07 [aphillip]
addison: add review of tracker issues to agenda for each week going forward
15:57:09 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/6
15:57:19 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/7
15:58:17 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/24
15:58:49 [aphillip]
"do we need complex ruby?"
15:58:49 [Zakim]
-fsasaki
15:59:04 [aphillip]
koji: personally am for complex ruby
15:59:12 [aphillip]
... but some folks don't agree
16:02:12 [aphillip]
addison: need to be able to produce print-grade publications
16:02:36 [aphillip]
... can we be forward looking here? or is that too hard?
16:03:40 [r12a]
koji: because of form factors, jukugo-ruby is likely to be more important for browsers and mobile devices than for print
16:03:52 [r12a]
... according to discussions in kyoto
16:04:13 [r12a]
... particularly for wrapping text in narrow columns
16:04:59 [aphillip]
r12a: need to work out if possible in current html5 ruby model
16:05:46 [aphillip]
koji: epub guys interested, but busy to ship epub3
16:06:22 [aphillip]
... will try to get information from epub guys this week
16:06:52 [aphillip]
ACTION: koji: contact epub folks and see if jukugo-ruby can be supported with html5 markup or if something else is needed
16:06:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-49 - Contact epub folks and see if jukugo-ruby can be supported with html5 markup or if something else is needed [on Koji Ishii - due 2011-06-22].
16:07:06 [aphillip]
addison: me too.
16:07:18 [aphillip]
Topic: AOB
16:07:54 [David]
bye
16:07:55 [Zakim]
-Addison_Phillips
16:07:56 [Zakim]
-kojiishi
16:08:02 [Zakim]
-Richard
16:08:32 [Zakim]
-matial
16:08:43 [aphillip]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:08:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:09:20 [aphillip]
zakim, bye
16:09:28 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended
16:09:31 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18n
16:09:33 [Zakim]
Attendees were matial, +44.141.888.aaaa, David, Richard, Addison_Phillips, fsasaki, kojiishi, +972.5.424.5aabb, aharon
16:10:02 [aphillip]
Present: Addison, Richard, Felix, David, Mati, Koji, Aharon
16:10:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:10:15 [aphillip]
rrsagent, bye
16:10:15 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-i18n-actions.rdf :
16:10:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: addison: collect any remaining comments and update timezones document for final publication [1]
16:10:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-i18n-irc#T15-18-22
16:10:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: addison: update charmodsummary and review WG member comments as they come in [2]
16:10:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-i18n-irc#T15-55-20
16:10:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: koji: contact epub folks and see if jukugo-ruby can be supported with html5 markup or if something else is needed [3]
16:10:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-i18n-irc#T16-06-52